As far as the romance goes, Anakin's side is pretty clear cut from the moment he met Padme in Episode I. That's not the issue. The issue is Padme and the fact that both of these characters are essentially novice when it comes to romance. It's awkward because of the fact that they've never done this before, on this level. Padme's the worse because it's pretty clear, she's never had a childhood. Padme's accepting of Anakin has more to do with Anakin's loss of his Mother more than it has to do with actually being in love with him.
Alright, sounds good to me, I guess I’ll attribute my lack of enjoyment to bad acting by Portman and bad dialogue by Lucas. Though, I will admit that Anakin seemed a bit creepy with his interest in Padme in AotC (like he was a stalker). He didn’t seem to actually care about her until RotS. Padme on the other hand was always flat and just stared at everything blankly and boringly. Thankfully Portman picked up her acting again by the third film.
Originally posted by: JumpmanTiptup,
You're disgusted by Lucas because he shows a character doing everything he could, even when he knows it's wrong, because of love? Because of the fear of being helpless in trying to save the one who represents life to him?
That's all Anakin did. I'm not justifying what he did. I'm not saying it's right what he did. It's completely pathetic. But, I understand the reasons why he did it. You seem to understand the reasons why and it doesn't fly for you. Fine. I can't change that. But, for me, it's sad what happened to this kid.
I understand that it makes you sad. It made me sad too, the first time I watched it, but once I looked past the on-screen emotions and start looking at what Anakin was actually doing I quickly lost all sympathy for him. What about the sadness of the lives he murdered without even stopping for even a single second to think twice?
George Lucas shows that scene in RotS where Anakin walks into the room hiding the smallest of the children and turning on his lightsaber. Lucas then quickly cuts away and we’re left to simply assume the horror. When analyzing Anakin’s motivation for that action however, I believe that was the cheap way out. He should have shown Anakin slicing down each one of the small children, one, by one, by one, by one, so we could see their tortured faces of absolute fear and desperation as man they trust slaughters them like animals.
You make a mistake at thinking I am disgusted by Anakin because he does everything he can for love. What you fail to realize is that Anakin WENT FAR BEYOND WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE! Murdering his good friends and killing innocent children is NEVER an option! There is NO EXCUSE for what he did! You can’t pretend that he just made bad mistakes or that he got caught up in something that was out of control! All he had was a 5-second dream sequence, and the next thing he did was murder a bunch of children and Anakin KNEW the choice he was making. It’s all so absurd.
Originally posted by: JumpmanYes. Darth Vader is changed forever. But, there's no story in the Prequels if you show Anakin as this badass Jedi warrior with an attitude and a streak of evil behind him. What's the point of telling that tale? We already know he becomes the representation of all that is evil with the Galactic Empire. You can't just show him as being always like that before he became Darth Vader.
Nowhere did I say that Darth Vader should have always been evil. I am arguing the opposite of that. I wanted a complicated man who made mistakes and got trapped into something horrible and began to punish himself for his crimes. I wanted to have someone who believed in goodness but failed miserably.
I loved the version of Anakin that was in the Phantom Menace. He was so innocent and trustworthy that I had goose bumps whenever I anticipated how he would soon fall from the heights of grace. Instead, in AotC we suddenly got a whiny, selfish, creepy, punk! What the hell?! Then RotS made him into a complete psychopath. How is that any kind of a realistic transition? Please, give me a break.
Originally posted by: JumpmanIt would've been easy to show that Anakin was always a hothead and never was really a good person underneath.
I wanted the exact opposite of that. Though an Anakin that was evil from the beginning might have been preferable to one we got. :\
Originally posted by: JumpmanCO,
Because of the nature of the Force and the fact that the Jedi manipulate the Force to their own will, if one is emotionally attached to an individual, one could slide easily down the path of possessiveness in wanting to keep that individual with them. The problem stems from the Dark Side. It's more powerful than the Light Side and it will "dominate you."
Interesting idea, one that I strongly disagree with, but interesting nonetheless. In terms of that concept’s portrayal in the movies though, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. I mean anyone that uses the force but doesn’t follow Jedi rules about emotional attachment or possessiveness is automatically evil in the Star Wars universe? If that’s what George Lucas was trying to communicate then he easily contradicted himself many times I’m afraid.
Originally posted by: Jumpman
You would be right if Lucas didn't show Anakin questioning himself in Episodes II and III about his wants and desires. He openly admits in Episode II that what he did to the Tusken Raiders was wrong. When Obi-Wan asks what Padme would do if she were in his position on the gunship, he knows that she would do her duty, as he states. He openly tells Padme that "he wants more, but he knows he shouldn't"
Anakin is constantly battling back and forth between what he desires and wanting to do the right thing and be a good Jedi.
What was wrong about killing the Tusken Raiders? They killed his mother! Certainly killing the children went too far, but that just goes to show his inability to empathize with others or properly justify his actions. The bad feelings he felt afterwards might have come from a totally selfish place for all we can know.
Anyways, even killing Tusken-Raider children isn’t the worst of crimes. I can identify with the mistake. They don’t seem like people but more like a pack of dangerous, bloodthirsty animals.
In terms of his basic emotion about his mother, you don’t actually think there was anything wrong with that do you? Do you believe that anger is always an evil emotion?
Originally posted by: Jumpman
Plus, he really wanted to show that Anakin, even by choice, was a victim in this whole game. He did choose, but between the Jedi and Palpatine, he was also a victim.
And I can understand the idea of "Darth Vader being a victim" would piss off Original Trilogy fans.
He was a victim of people
manipulating him?! No, not manipulation! Oh the poor little guy! I feel compelled to feel sorry for his horrible plight!
Sorry to disagree again. I mean, sure, I understand why he did what he did, but that motivation is not anything that anyone should EVER identify with or agree with to any degree.
On the other hand though, a complete victim route in the film would have been cool. George Lucas could have made Revenge of the Sith into a major psychological drama, where the dark side of the force begins to twist everything in Anakin’s mind. Everything he believes and knows could become more and more tainted until he begins to commit absolute horrors and is unable to turn back on them. (Still, I would have shown him letting the small, innocent children go. The REAL Darth Vader would have waited until they were old enough to have at least some kind of chance!) As it is though, the PT Anakin was in no way a “victim” in comparison to the victims of his far more heinous crimes.
Originally posted by: JumpmanBut back to Anakin, his idea that the Jedi are greedy and evil has more to do with the fact that it's the Dark Side dominating him for than having two versions of Episode III. His dialogue means squat because he's obviously out of control and dominated by the Dark Side of the Force.
Okay, we all understand from Return of the Jedi that the Force has a mystical power to “dominate” the destiny of its children. But, always implied with that thought was the notion that CHOICE is what was needed to lead you to the dark side and to enslavement! In other words, for each further step into darkness or towards evil, you always have to choose what you want. That’s why the dark side of the force is described as “seductive!” What choice did Anakin ever make that allowed the dark side to enslave him enough to instantaneously think the Jedi were evil? Plus, if his thinking was being clouded here, then why isn’t that portrayed? We have no clue in the acting or the dialogue that Anakin is being fooled by the force!
At the most I was willing to accept that the Dark Side of the force could cloud the judgment of the weak minded, but that temptation and choice were never negated. In the prequel trilogy there was absolutely no seduction or any clouding of judgment portrayed that would EVER harmonize with Anakin slaughtering innocent children! All we got was a train wreck where Anakin was suddenly revealed as a pure evil psychopath. Darth Vader never “consumed” the PT Anakin. That Anakin made all of the decisions and clearly knew what he was doing because he cared for his tiny emotional pain.
Originally posted by: JumpmanWhat person blames himself of his Mother's death when he had no control over the situation? Seriously, that would be the person that thinks he is on the level of a god whose destiny is far beyond that of other people. The person who believes that having empathy for ordinary “mortals” is a waste of time, because all that truly matters to him are his personal emotions and possessions. A psychopath.
Originally posted by: COAnakin should have been likeable in AOTC, he should have been a hero, this great jedi, with this great personality, so when he falls in ROTS the viewer says, "A waste of talent." -From A Bronx Tale. There is nothing more depressing then having an athlete as a role model who is totally likeable and just see them crumble later in life.
Amen. That would have been a perfectly acceptable way to approach Anakin’s tale. Instead, we sort of got a waste of talent, but one where the justification for his fall is greatly outweighed by the pure evil of his actions. That was no mistake he was making except perhaps on the tiniest of levels. It was all intentional and he thought it was justified in his twisted and sick mind.
In fact, what you are describing there is what I meant by saying that Darth Vader should have been portrayed as a “badass.” He should have been very likeable. Someone that makes mistakes out of ignorance and impatience, but someone whose intentions are at least partially justified in some sizeable way. Killing innocent children is so far beyond his wife’s life being in danger in a short and hazy dream that we are FORCED to conclude that he is a human being with virtually no empathy or remorse for others.
Now we have to ask the question, in “Episode IV,” when Darth Vader says about Obi-Wan, “I must confront him alone,” is he saying that because he has an honorable warrior ethic as a remnant from his life as a Jedi, as I had ALWAYS thought from the first time I had ever seen Star Wars?! Or, did he say that simply because his whiny feelings had been hurt from being bested earlier and they now wanted a rematch? After the prequel trilogy I’m sadly forced to conclude the latter. Otherwise, without that motivation, the PT Anakin’s style would be to hunt down and surround Obi-Wan with Storm Troopers and let them do the hard work. He prefers killing little children and doesn’t mind unfair battles.
Originally posted by: zombie84 And he added the great scene were Anakin is absent for the Mace-Palpatine fight, comes in halfway and is goaded by both of them to choose a side--and then choses Palpatine, saying "what have i done...just help me save padme." But now after this section is finished, it returns to the original version--why the hell is Anakin suddenly killing his children, when he was just loyal to Mace windu a few minutes earlier when he told him the truth about Palpatine?? His acceptance of the Sith was a spontaneous emotional response related to Padme, not any sort of personality flaw or corruption/betrayal issue.
Amen. I never knew that stuff about re-editing the movie, and that greatly helps to explain why so little of it makes sense at that very point.
The only good part after that is the battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Obi-Wan clearly is hurt by the betrayal and you feel for him at least. But Anakin is just too evil for me to feel empathy for. I’m only sorry that Obi-Wan walked away and didn’t have the strength to finish the job, even though I understand why he didn’t.
And I hate the route that Anakin is the victim. That completely rules out any semblance of tragedy. A tragic hero has to be the agent of action, not the patient of action. He has to be intelligent enough to see the ethical implications of his actions, and to be able to determine the probably outcome of those choices. Anakin just seems to be a dumbass who never considers anything and never seems to have enough intelligence to question why he's doing what he's doing.
