TheBoost

I didnt know you even had free speech?

Last month, weren't people being beheaded for not kneeling to Margaret Thatcher's coffin or something like that?

Hey, it's me. said:

Well..an admission from the government that there is a serious problem with the immigrant Muslim population integrating into the indigenous culture and population would be a start. Their subsequent failure to do so. Their admission that radical and fundamental Islam does not adhere with western life, and Muslim community leaders need to take massive responsibility and notable action in addressing this problem. Not just words but ACTION if they REALLY oppose these radical views? And sack and shame every left wing cunt from the BBC who actively looks to question this problem by publically labelling those who do so as being racist. Good enough?

So you just kinda want someone in official ranks to say, Bad Muslims are Bad, and all Muslims need to take action for it? Would an MP be enough, or does it have to be the queen? Can there be a vote? What percentage do you need?

I'm curious if any fundamentalist religion fits with the general umbrella of  Western life (a somewhat nebulous term when it applies to both Sweden and Texas). Do you want the government to condemn fundamentalist Christians, Jews, or Asatru?

The photo implies this topic has lasted too long.

CP3S said:

 

 

I think a no immigration stance is legit enough as well. I love cultures. My career, when I'm working in it, is heavily related to culture. I have a good deal of cross-cultural experience. A fellow expatriate buddy of mine and I used to talk about America being a salad, when you come to America, you are expected and allowed to be whatever you are. It is like the salad bowl in the middle of the dinner table. Everyone dishes a little bit of it out onto their own plates. They have a plate full of their own main course and sides, and they also have a serving of the salad. As an American, when I travel to or live in other countries, I am expected to blend. If I don't know the language, eyes roll. When I do something culturally unkosher or somehow demonstrate my inevitable ignorance of local norms and mores in some way, big or small, people sigh, "silly American" and shake their heads.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do; when in The United States, do as you would at home." My buddy and I would lament that while everyone else at the table has their own plates of food, we simply have an empty plate in front of us filled with the same salad in the middle of the table that everyone else is dishing up freely. We were stuck in a culturally devoid expanse, looking at all this rich culture at the table around us, but only able to smell its delicious odors and watch others enjoy it as we slowly munched on our bland salad. This is why we were both expatriates, why we both sought out and seized opportunities to immerse ourselves in these foreign worlds. Even if those other dishes could never be ours, we wanted to surround ourselves with people we could live vicariously through; so we could watch longingly with rumbling stomachs as they partook of their exotic cuisines.

I hated seeing Wal-Mart in Germany and McDonald's in France. I wanted to see these cultures untouched. When in Germany, I wanted to see Germany, not Germany with some America sprinkled on top. When in France I wanted to see France. When in England I wanted to see England and English people, not another melting pot like the States. Unfortunately to a degree (but not all bad), we live in a global world climate and the world is shrinking fast. I'd loved to see European countries hold back the night and maintain their own identities. So don't misunderstand me, we have far more in common on this topic than you think.

 

 

But there's never been a static culture, and those that try to be (the Amish, the Japanese in the past) are completely defined by their unnatural desire to be static.

The "German" culture we know today is a moment in time, an snapshot of cultures meeting, merging, taking, losing, changing, adapting. Anything we might call the "English"/"UK" culture is a total and constantly changing hodgepodge; the "American" culture even moreso. I toured the beautiful mosques in Spain, and have seen the first Christian monasteries in Scotland; antique signs that no culture ever stays the same.  

The idea of "preserving" a culture is completely artificial to what cultures are. It's even a little paternalistic when we apply it to people like un-contacted tribes. 

I agree with you that the American culture is a deep, and wonderful thing, and from sea to shining sea I love it (except South Carolina... they know why). But I can't sit listening to my Irish-inspired Appalachian banjo music, eating my tex-mex lunch, sitting in my Tudor style living room, and think outside influences somehow lessens a culture. 

imperialscum said:

Okay again.

I do not see benefits of lax immigration policies. I support selective immigration. If a country is in need of a few skilled individuals that is completely okay. But to just accept anyone, especially to do less paid jobs (or even worse, to let them live on the state's social support) just because your own people do not wish to do it, that is stupid and could be even considered as an exploitation.

 

So... the unwashed masses are okay, as long as we need their skills. So if another country educates and prepares them, us 1st world nations should sweep in an take them and the benefits they create away, consequently taking a job from a skilled native worker? That's not exploitation?

But the economically disadvantaged of another country can't come here and work jobs we wont do? It's exploitative to have them come here and work, that even at the worst levels provides a better lifestyle than they could often hope for in their countries, but that is exploitative? 

TV's Frink said:

Point conceded.

Point of order! What is a question if not a "request" for information?

I have no idea what my point is.

I was going to post here, but I want to keep disturbing mrebo.

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

I have a friend who is a massive cricket fan and has been to Bangladesh and Pakistan to see England play on tour. And he has quite reliably informed me that these countries are utter shitholes. No amount of holiday brochure pictures will change that. Nice try though.

Well, while I'm sure you're friends anecdotes are wonderfully insightful, reffering to the developing world, with their massive cities, internet, freeways, and hospitals, as "Stone Age shitholes" carries with it a nice little air of "These masses of brown savages sure should be glad we civilized folk invented fire. And they get it for free!" 

It's funny, because just about everything you're saying is what American's in the Southwest like to say about Mexicans. 

And while I cant speak to British immigration, it's the same thing that was said about Chinese immigrants, Irish immigrants, Afro-Carribean immigrants, and Easter European immigrants here in America.

 

In regards to my friend who has actually been to these places, his comments weren't anecdotal. Believe me.

You may need to look up what anecdotal means.

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

We don't want them to be more like us. We want them to understand and respect our culture and way of life if they choose to live here. Not throw their way of life from a Stone Age shithole of a country in our faces and say 'this is us, deal with it or fuck off.' That's UTTERLY disrespectful to the common people of the country that has provided you with free healthcare, housing, and free education for your children. It really is THAT simple.

 

And you are aware there are immigrants that have jobs and pay taxes right?

Yeah unfortunately the majority of Muslim immigrants in the UK arrive from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia etc and these are not nice places. 

Mogadishu Somalia

Islamabad, Pakistan

 

Dhaka, Bangladesh

I have a friend who is a massive cricket fan and has been to Bangladesh and Pakistan to see England play on tour. And he has quite reliably informed me that these countries are utter shitholes. No amount of holiday brochure pictures will change that. Nice try though.

Well, while I'm sure you're friends anecdotes are wonderfully insightful, reffering to the developing world, with their massive cities, internet, freeways, and hospitals, as "Stone Age shitholes" carries with it a nice little air of "These masses of brown savages sure should be glad we civilized folk invented fire. And they get it for free!" 

It's funny, because just about everything you're saying is what American's in the Southwest like to say about Mexicans. 

And while I cant speak to British immigration, it's the same thing that was said about Chinese immigrants, Irish immigrants, Afro-Carribean immigrants, and Easter European immigrants here in America.

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

We don't want them to be more like us. We want them to understand and respect our culture and way of life if they choose to live here. Not throw their way of life from a Stone Age shithole of a country in our faces and say 'this is us, deal with it or fuck off.' That's UTTERLY disrespectful to the common people of the country that has provided you with free healthcare, housing, and free education for your children. It really is THAT simple.

 

And you are aware there are immigrants that have jobs and pay taxes right?

Yeah unfortunately the majority of Muslim immigrants in the UK arrive from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Somalia etc and these are not nice places. 

Mogadishu Somalia

Islamabad, Pakistan

Dhaka, Bangladesh

Hey, it's me. said:

We don't want them to be more like us. We want them to understand and respect our culture and way of life if they choose to live here. Not throw their way of life from a Stone Age shithole of a country in our faces and say 'this is us, deal with it or fuck off.' That's UTTERLY disrespectful to the common people of the country that has provided you with free healthcare, housing, and free education for your children. It really is THAT simple.

Cairo

Casablanca

Tehran

And you are aware there are immigrants that have jobs and pay taxes right?

Hey, it's me. said:

I was serious about Dan Stevens btw.

I'd rather see Jim Carter.

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

So would you prefer to live under the rules of a western democracy, or under a Sharia controlled dictatorship? And make no mistake, Sharia Law is a dictatorship. Make your choice. The UK or Saudi Arabia?

Your false dichotomy is truly ridiculous.Truly, truly ridiculous.

Hey, it's me. said:

There will never be peaceful segregation between communities while one community chooses to shut themselves off from everyone else and refuse to even try to integrate with the local people. That creates division and ill feeling,  when that's the first thing you should be looking to avoid. And this is the alienation problem the majority of people have with the Muslim communities. There are areas of East London where road names are written in Arabic for crying out loud. They don't want to integrate and they never will integrate.

I know what you mean! Look at the endless strife between Chinese Americans and us REAL Americans over here. The violence and strife never stops! Their ethnic enclaves as bastions of crime (you can go there and buy illegal fireworks!) Chinatown my ass. More like "HateAmericaBurg!"

And don't get me started on all the Mexican's here in California. They live together in their little communities, (the ones we let them buy, over by the lettuce farms), speaking Spanish, planning to never integrate. Why can't they be like all the GOOD Mexicans from the last generation, who's kids are all English speakers, and fully integrated within three generations.

And I know that despite the history of all immigrant ethnic groups in the history of the world always assimilating every time ever always, I know THIS batch, this current batch, are just no good.

Hey, it's me. said:

Read it from a Muslim themselves. http://leedsisoc.com/blog/201305/why-we-muslims-just-dont-get

Small grammatical faux pas, but oddly telling about your point.

Interesting article, but I have to take umbrage with:

It's our responsibility to ensure the country is comfortable with our presence here. If they're not, it's a failing of ours and not theirs.

I just cant agree with that.

Hey, it's me. said:

And this is where the conflict stems from. Western Europe has increasingly become a more secular society over the years. The majority don't need religion to tell them how to live their lives. We've moved on. They don't like the way we live? Then stay in their own fucking country. That's all it boils down to.

The "way we live" is itself a troubling statement that can pretty much be used to justify anything, and oppress anyone.

I watched the new Halo movie, and was really impressed with the presence of Anna Popplewell. I guess she was in the Narnia movies too, but I don't recall. 

adywan said:

muddyknees2000 said:

The way I always saw it was that we were catching only the tail end of the conversation.

^^^This

Ady,

Your new Avatar made me think of this:

CP3S said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

Not totally sure what your point is. That we force gender roles on children through the media, but that all magically vanished when we're old enough to watch "Alien"?

This is actually slightly besides the point, but:

I love Alien, and it is cool that the main protagonist was a strong female, but then we still get to see her in the traditional role of playing eye candy for the benefit of male viewers at the end of the film while waltzing around in her panties. Same thing with Princess Leia, we're giving a strong female protagonist, and in the third film we objectify the shit out of her for the first however many minutes of the film.

We still force these characters into the expected gender roles, Leia is a strong character you wouldn't want to mess with, then BAM, she's imprisoned, vulnerable, and naked and needs a boy to come save her. But then again, I guess she started off the first film as the damsel in distress anyway.

But is this even that big of a deal anymore? I feel like our society is meeting equilibrium when it comes to objectification, you have shows like Spartacus that shows lingering close up shots of muscular men wearing next to nothing, and while you see plenty of female nudity in that show, they also hang plenty of dong on screen. True Blood is much the same way, equal opportunity objectification. And you get films like Magic Mike drawing in large female crowds.

Spartacus is an awesome power fantasy of who I want to be. The vampire on True Blood are super-hot demigods of awesome. If that's objectification, give me more.The ladies might like them, but that's who I wish I was.

But look at your own examples. Dis-empowered near naked vulnerable women looking sexy aren't who I want my daughter to identify with. They're wish fulfillment for the MEN watching as well.

Show me a half naked vulnerable man saved by a big strong sexy lady... and I'm pretty sure we must be watching a parody of something.

Ryan McAvoy said:

 

            ^ Princess Leia ("Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?")               

Princess Leia is actually sleeping in that pic while the droids are arguing over who is going to rape her first. 

Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

 

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

Not totally sure what your point is. That we force gender roles on children through the media, but that all magically vanished when we're old enough to watch "Alien"? 

And you consider "Sex and the City" a kids film? Remind me not to let you watch my kids :)