TheBoost

My parents first date was to Star Wars, so it is likely that I wouldn't even exist if not for that movie.

Star Wars was always a part of my life as a kid. My earliest memory is talking to my brother about what happened in 'Star Wars' because we owned tapes of Empire and Jedi (taped of HBO), but we weren't exactly clear on our memories of the first movie, (which I think we must have seen on the bigscreen on the 81 rerelease).

And menacing space-opera villain in scary black armor is going to be viewed as a Darth Vader knock off, regardless of details. copyright or not.

For a couple of fanprojects I'm kicking around, I'm looking to locate some good 'Star Wars' music that isn't actually Star Wars music.

Any orchestral music you could reccommend with a vaguely 'Star Wars' feel would be awesome. I'm trying to avoid any recognizable film-scores.

Also, anything that could work as 'in-universe' music, like the Cantina Song, or Lapti Nek... something 'sci-fi pop.'

Thanks gang.

 Ever notice how in AOTC he's called 'the bounty hunter Jango Fett,' although in actuality he's a political assassin and glorified sperm donor?

A couple things from a youtube show that might be of interest to Star Wars fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NNsYAlKbdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVHsjzDEQQ

The second one especially had me rolling.

WheresBlackhawk said:

Henry IV).  Lhasa would still be with him to protect him as the heir.  After Alderann is invaded and Bail's father is killed.  I was thinking the Mandalorians could go after him to use him a pawn (useless heir is easily manipulated), thus the fight and escape involving Bail and Lhasa, Obiwan and Anakin, and Owen and Beru.  Bail's first steps to becoming a king could be purely to impress Lhasa, who seems intrigued by this Anakin dude.  I really wanted to see Bail grow over the three movie from reluctant king, to a man who would fight for his people, to a man who would surrender himself to pretect his people.

 So she's like... a sexy Falstaff! I find that oddly erotic.

Uh... ...

Forget I said that.

If Lhasa/NotPadme is Bail's bodyguard, it could also possible provide some antagonism between what she wants to do to protect him and what Obi/Ani want to do. It would be great if we could nail some sassy banter back and forth between her and Anakin (who takes Obi's side, because Obi isn't argumentative). That flirtatious arguing stuff could provide some nice comic relief without having to introduce a Jar Jar.

ChainsawAsh said:

Since this thread has been a little dead lately, I figured I'd give a little update to let folks know this project is most definitely not dead - I'm about 20 pages into the first draft of the Episode I script based on Blackhawk's outline.

I am, however, running into a bit of a snag:  I'm terrible at coming up with names that don't sound incredibly stupid.

If anyone has suggestions for names, please throw them out there!  I need:

- King Organa's aides (1 main one, about 3 or 4 smaller ones that don't really *need* names but it'd be kinda nice)
- "NotPadme"
- General Mandalorian names, including the leader
- Any other names you guys can think of

I'm currently using the EU name for the Alderaan capital, "Aldera," unless anyone thinks of something better.

I too have been working on some material from Blackhawks story idea. Perhaps we should exchange work sometime.

NotPadme- two names I've been kicking around are 'Lady Arcadia' which I think has a nice noble ring to it and 'Lhasa,' which keeps the 'L' gimmick that she gives both her kids.

I think Lucas's earliest treaments are  a rich sourse of good names. Kane and Deak are two names unused in the movies from the earliest drafts, as are the planets Aquilae and Townowi. "Aquliae Rangers" were a military force in the earliest drafts, and I'm using that name as Bail Organa's personal bodyguard. I see the Aquilae Rangers and analogous to Musketeers, as opposed to the wandering knight-errants of the Jedi.

I'm also proposing "Angel Blue,"  a refrence from an early draft of Star Wars, as the name of Anakin's ship.

Here are the least objectioable Star Wars person names out of the 275 I came up with.

Holis Raen, Bret Thousand, Saimus Thule, Kai Viratas, Rhana Ordalleon,   

As for Mandalorians, I'm currently using "Ruthven" as the head mandalorian, a refrence to a Gilbert & Sullivan opera... names aren't my strong point either.

I think the "Old Republic" might be very heavy into monarchies and nobility. Much of that seems evident in the OT. "Lord" Vader, "Princess" Leia. etc. I think the "Republic" might only refer to a very loose federation of systems and alliances, mainly between hereditary rulers (or at least constiturional monarchies... no "elected queens" for us!) a system that has functioned well for centuries, but is currently in crisis.  That the Republic is a bastion of democracy seems hard to reconcile with the number of royalty we have floating around.

I've been contemplating Bail's motivations. As the young king (or perhaps crown prince) of a wealthy and powerful world, his main motivation is to avoid political entanglements, commitments, or war. He thinks he can negotiage, appease, and avoid all confrontations. The Mandalorian blockade and assassination attemps makes him rethink this. I think his character arc might be the realization that he has to fight for the greater good, so his story ends with Alderaan committed to the Republic's defense.

I'm kind of at ends on how exactly NotPadme works into the story. I don't want her to feel like a hanger-on, but haven't figured out a role or real character arc for her. One idea I have is that she starts out as one of Bail's guards, an Aquiliae Ranger (she's also noble born) and they fall in love as she defends him. This makes her very vibrant and dynamic, and we can see why Bail and Anakin both fall for her.  

DarkFather said:

When Vader comes aboard the Tantive IV to retrieve the stolen plans, a listener will begin to realize that this is a new spin on the villain from the film. While much of the dialogue and actions are the same, the tonality he uses when speaking gives us a villain with a different personality. His voice remains calm. While choking Antilles, Vader talks like an adult asking a child where the remote control to the television was hidden.

So this Vader isn't so much the brute from the film, but a more sophisticated and stoic villain.

 Obviously any actor (except Rich Little) is going to bring their own take on the character, but I also think that the radio actor's performance is clearly inspired by the James Earl Jones performance in ESB more than the much angrier and more expressive performance Jones gave in Star Wars.

The Ulic Quel Droma story, all three Dark Empires, and the Dark Forces games were also adapted to full-cast "radio dramas," with (IMHO) less success.

I sure wish they'd do the PT as radio dramas. With a solid writer to flesh out the characters and motivations, that could be awesome.

Bingowings said:

It might be an interesting twist to have notPadme an unwitting Lady Macbeth.

If Anakin was initially shown as being without any ambition or desire to be more than just a navigator on a spice freighter, she could be constantly pushing him to be more than that (only with good intentions not Lady Macbeth's poison).

As Anakin becomes more confident and takes on a more active role she continues to push him to achieve greater and greater things with terrible consequences.

The sadness that Leia remembers comes not just from her husband's fall but from her part in it.

 I really, really like this idea. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Anakin, a nothing farm boy with a good flightstick hand, might be filled with doubts. His pal's girlfriend encourages him, pushes him, which might be the foundation of their eventual ilicit relationship, as well as the Lady MacBeth bit.

AxiaEuxine said:

Out of curiosity why do you all "wonder if" endlessly about the prequels? You hate them, that isnt going to change. Its evident in any prequel edit Ive ever watched. Where most OT edits are much more carefully edited, in an attempt to make them better movies all prequel edits are designed to change them, to make them "better" movies and it shows. Every true prequel fan edit has been a jarring hack and slash job trying to turn the movies into something they are not.

 Now, I know that my PT-hate is considerably less than the average fan on these boards, but I like to 'wonder-if" because I love Star Wars so darn much, I wish the PT wasn't so flawed.

As for edits, I think Phantom Editor's work was brilliant. I admit TPM wasn't the film i was hoping to see, but even as the film it was, a childish adventure film, it was highly flawed.  Phantom Editor successfully made it a much better childish adventure film (albeit still with a really UNchildish plotline about politics and traderoutes).

I wish AOTC wasn't an awkward teen lovestory interspersed with a mystery that is never solved, but even if I loved awkward teen romances and unresolved mysteries, the film still had major flaws that Phantom Editor made less obnoxious.

AxiaEuxine said:

DarkFather said:

I don't think most of the complaints are the user's own initial thoughts from having watched it a lot of the time. I think they've been socially programmed by hanging around certain people, constantly hearing the same complaints, and then absorbing it into themselves while assuming they had the same "initial personal thoughts" as their friends. I've known too many who thought the PT was "okay" for the longest time before being exposed to hate lists and whatnot.

 

 Thats funny becuase I think the same exact thing about prequel haters. I dont run into ANYBODY that actually likes them. Youve all let your opinions been completely colored and programed by your buddies, media the dog in the next yard.... Its the only explanation from walking away from the prequels and not thinking they are good movies... But to each his own.

 I think I tend to agree that the PT hate is a viscous cycle. It seems to me that more people didn't totally hate the PT until a while after it came out. Partly this could be personal reflection, as the "OHMYGOD ITS STARWARS!" vibe wore off, and part of it might be the cycle of internet bitching honing disapointment of the films into a bitter dagger of snark filled hate.

I think the LucasBashing really stems from how he kind of pisses on the fans with his issues over the real versions of the OT. I know it's his personal philosphy of film, but it's kind of a douche bag philosophy. I think the personal distaste fans have garnered for Lucas over the SE/DVD fiasco has also colored their perceptions of the PT, whereas instead of being flawed films by a filmamker we like, they become a slap in the face by someone with 'no respect for the fans.'

That's of course, just my opinion.

Vaderisnothayden said:

You'd need somebody other than Lucas to write them. And hopefully somebody other than Lucas to be in charge of the project. Plus different actors for some characters, notably Anakin in the later two films.

 Lucas managed to get talented actors like Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, and Natalie Portman to deliver flat, uninpired performances. Even Harrison Ford complained about how little attention Lucas gave actors.

Do you suppose with a better director, one who wouldn't let "I hate sand" be a major plot point, your distaste of Christenson might be lessoned?

What if Lucas had chosen not to direct the PT?

Kershner made 'Empire,' widely called the best of the OT, which he claims was in line with Lucas's vision, but his directorial skills are evident in the film and the film is better for it. 

Lucas would still be in charge (they are his films) so the basic movies would be the same,  but with a director on set more interested in the act of directing and working with actors than Lucas admittedly is, and not distracted by all that was on Lucas's mind, maybe the PT wouldn't have the flaws that we all seem to think they have.

Who would have been the best choices? Here's my picks.

THE PHANTOM MENACE:
Directed by Ricard Donner

This childish action-adventure romp would benefit from a director who showed a deft hand with children's adventures (The Goonies) as well as combo action/humor vehicles (the later Lethal Weapon films). His epic credentials from Superman can not be overstated.

ATTACK OF THE CLONES:
Directed by Bryan Singer

Singer has a good eye for dark mystery (The Usual Suspects) as well as lush unapologetic romanticism (Superman Returns) both of which this film needs, and has shown he can balance a complicated action filled plot with stellar character developement (X2).

REVENGE OF THE SITH
Directed by Christopher Nolan

ROTS is a movie with a lot of plot going on with the fall of the Republic, Anakin's turn,  Padme's pregnancy and forming of the Rebellion (cut for time), a new villain introduced then killed (Greivous), and a mystery from Ep. 2 to clear up (Sypho-Dias, cut for time). Nolan, with films such as The Prestige and The Dark Knight shows the skills to balance a break-neck and convoluted plot with layers of complicated but emotionally rewarding thematic elements and still have the film work as an action packed adventure.

Doublepost

Vaderisnothayden said:

General question for anyone on this thread, does this life debt thing mean we're to assume Chewie wasn't genuinely emotionally attached to Han and just stuck with him due to this life debt?

 In the movies, I totally know Chewie genuinly loved Han and the gang. Their relationship was clearly partners and pals (dare I say, chums?) in Star Wars, and Chewie was clearly part of the 'family' in Empire and Jedi.

Which is why the lifedebt thing is so irritating. It's not needed. I seems to exist just because someone said 'there's no way a man and a space monkey could be equal partners and friends. How can I easily a) explain how the monkey is in fact subservient, and b) explain how the monkey sticks around instead of going off to pick space bananas'

If Chewie has a lifedebt, and still loves Han and the crew, that has a wierd undertone of old Hollywood and the old black slave/housekeeper who deeply loved the family they worked for.

SilverWook said:

It might also be the first mention of how dangerous the lower forest levels of Kashyyk are. The newspaper strip had a story around the same time where Han and Chewie ride giant centipedes down there to foil some Imperials. The flora and fauna get more lethal the deeper (and darker) you go! It fascinated and creeped me out as a kid.

I was bummed we didn't get to see much of that forest in Episode III.  ;)

 Sounds fun. I may have to pick up the newspaper strip at some point. Is it in a collection?

C3PX said:

I can't say definitively where it came from, but I knew about it for as long as I can remember. I used to act out Han rescuing Chewie from slavers with my Kenner action figures when I was a kid, (the slavers consisted of a couple of Jawas, a Tusken Raider, a Rodian, Snaggletooth, three Stormtroopers, a Deathstar Droid, and Walrusman, and of course the whole thing was masterminded by none other than Darth Vader with his insanely short telescoping lightsaber that was built right into his arm. Damn, I miss those days.) So it is definitely Pre-90's EU. Since my only non-movie exposure of SW as a kid was the comic books, I am betting that I got it from them.

I think the 'noble savage' is what GL was aiming for with Chewie. I think he was suppose to be to Han what Tonto was to the Lone Ranger. If you are old enough to remember The Lone Ranger, you might remember that Tonto followed The Lone Ranger around after he saved his life. I don't think there was a life debt in Tonto's case, it is simple what he chose to do. Tonto was always depicted as intelligent and an equal to the Lone Ranger, and that is always sort of the relationship I have seen between Han and Chewie.

 So true about those great toys. sigh.

I dont object to the Han/Chewie/Slaver origin story. I just don't like the lifedebt. Heroes save eachother all the time.

Maybe 'noble' was what Lucas is going for (if he came up with the Lifedebt that it), but to me when two people are unequal because the animal-like one has a kooky religion that makes him subservient, that seems a little racist. (or speciesist... whatever. Definitly not egalitarian).   

I'm not a guy who sees racism everywhere (I hate Jar-Jar and the Nemoidians for many reasons, but not because I think they're racist). I hate the lifedebt because it exists just to make sure the two characters are not really equals. It's even worse the more writers insist that Han really doesn't hold Chewie to the lifedebt, or think of Chewie that way, because now it's not only an unequal relationship, it's a condescending relationship, "There's this monkey over there who insists on being my butler! I try to tell him no, that I believe in equality and he doesn't have to be my servant, but he won't let up. He thinks it's his place. How quaint.'

Can you imagine it the other way? Han saying that he owes the nonlinguistic hairy animal his loyallty and service because Chewie saved his life?

(not getting on your case C3PX, just continuing the ranting)

Fang Zei said:

Meanwhile, LFL launches that massive multimedia clone wars project with the six books, the genndy series, the comics, the digest comics, etc, and people got even more pissed as it became clear that GL intentionally left everything people wanted to see out of AOTC (tell me that's not the most commonly voiced complaint about the PT) just so he could make more money by spreading it out over that huge multimedia campaign. Cash grab though it was, the various creative minds behind it arguably did a better job than GL did with the prequels because they embraced what had come before in the EU and the OT.

In regards to Lucas leaving what people wanted to see out of AOTC (intentionally none the less!!!), what did people want to see in that film? I'm not sure what aspects of the Clone Wars 'cash grab' would have been better in the films.

The ludicrous action of the cartoon? The existential search for identity of Jangotat? Another disposable villain like Ventress or Durge? Obi-Wan's chestplate? Or were we all dispointed that AOTC didn't include MedStar Battle Surgeons!?? Which of these great plot points exactly were intentionally left out because of their overwhelming greatness?

As for most commonly voiced complaint about AOTC, it seems to me that it's between 'the love story blew' or 'the mystery subplot blew.' 

Fang Zei said:

Meanwhile, LFL launches that massive multimedia clone wars project with the six books, the genndy series, the comics, the digest comics, etc, and people got even more pissed as it became clear that GL intentionally left everything people wanted to see out of AOTC (tell me that's not the most commonly voiced complaint about the PT) just so he could make more money by spreading it out over that huge multimedia campaign. Cash grab though it was, the various creative minds behind it arguably did a better job than GL did with the prequels because they embraced what had come before in the EU and the OT.

In regards to Lucas leaving what people wanted to see out of AOTC (intentionally none the less!!!), what did people want to see in that film? I'm not sure what aspects of the Clone Wars 'cash grab' would have been better in the films.

The ludicrous action of the cartoon? The existential search for identity of Jangotat? Another disposable villain like Ventress or Durge? Obi-Wan's chestplate? Or were we all dispointed that AOTC didn't include MedStar Battle Surgeons!?? Which of these great plot points exactly were intentionally left out because of their overwhelming greatness?

As for most commonly voiced complaint about AOTC, it seems to me that it's between 'the love story blew' or 'the mystery subplot blew.' 

Who came up with the 'life-debt' concept between Chewie and Han? When was that added?

I've never liked the idea. It takes Chewie from a capable and intelligent partner to Han Solo, and makes him a servant. It places him as subordinate to Han, and makes his race seem backwards. (Luke 'owes' Han his life twice, but doesn't have the backwards notion he has to be Han's servant. Human's are too advanced for that).

At best it makes Chewie a 'noble savage' type, with all of the racist and imperialist (no pun intended) baggage that carries. The debt also carries over to Chewbacca's kids... who are apparently hereditary slaves of the Solo clan, despite how many times Chewbacca might have saved a Solo's life.

I don't beleive there's a hint of 'life debt' in the movies. I just see two partners and friends who are equals.  

And let me add, no matter how the Han Solo character treats or views Chewbacca, it has no bearing on my opinion that the 'lifedebt' demeans the Chewbacca character and the Wookiee race.

I really dug on the first half of this book. I have no background into who Blackhole, Shadowspawn, or Cronal are (although I did catch the shoutout to Kadann, the Prophet of the Darkside from the old Jedi Prince novels). Shadowspawn seemed a neat villain with an interesting angle.

But then it just got to confusing. I got really bored really quick with Cronal, and Luke, and THE DARK. Too much just seemed to be going on, and the peculiar framing story from the first chapter kept bugging me. I was impatient to get to the part it refferred to. I was also frustrated by all of the scenes of rock melting. I got it. The rock melts. If it was a movie, that would have been the most overused special effect. I didn't mind the PT refrences at all.

Then there was the non-ending. That ticked me of. I had high hopes for this story, since Stover's Ep. 3 novelisation was ballstothewall the best Star Wars novel I'd read in years and made me like Ep. 3 the movie even more. I'd give this a resounding 'meh.'

Vaderisnothayden said:

I want to ask a number of questions about Mandalorians.

(And I'm talking about expanded universe writers way back like 70s/80s, not Karen Traviss or whatever in recent years.)

When was Boba Fett first made into sort of the toughest dude around? In a New Jedi Order story in the Star Wars Tales comic we have Han Solo saying he wouldn't be able to beat Boba Fett in a fair fight. You don't get that notion from the OT, so I guess Boba Fett being that unbeatably tough is a development of the expanded universe. I'd like to know when the expanded universe made him so invincibly tough. Is it a development of the Boba Fett splurge of the 90s or does it date back to the 80s or 70s?

(Of course, the prequels seem to have picked up the idea of him being so tough a bit, by making Jango Fett a match for Jedi Kenobi, but that's after years of Boba Fett being the big man in 90s expanded universe stuff.) 

What about the novelization? Do any of the movie novelizations (OT or prequel) mention anything about Mandalorians other than that bit in the ESB novelization that I mentioned? 

The ESB was (I think) the first mention of the name Mandalorians, and their status as somehow the enemy of the Jedi during the past.

The PT, including the novels, doesn't contain any refrence to any such thing. Which is a pity because it would have been so simple to make Kamino into Mandalore, then the clones would be Mandalorians. Or maybe thats a dumb idea.

Where Boba Fett got the 'tough guy' rep I don't know, except to say he sure didn't get it from the movies!

RANDOM THOUGHTS ABOUT TURNING TO THE DARK SIDE:

Since eventually Anakin has to do it, here are two non-Star Wars movies that I think contain excellent looks at positive characters that, for very real seeming reasons, become the villain. 

THE PRESTIGE: If you've seen the film, there's a truly great moment where the Scarlet Johansen character says to the Hugh Jackman character that, "Learning his secret won't bring your wife back." and the Jackman character responds, "I don't care about my wife, I care about his secret." After he says it, Jackman takes a moment, and the look in his eyes as he realizes that what he said was true is chilling. THAT is what turning to the dark side could be like, when you realize that whatever high ideals you once thought movitvated you are not true anylonger.

TO KILL A KING: Great film about the English Civil War with Tim Roth as Oliver Cromwell. The relationship between Cromwell and Fairfax (Dougray Scott) is a study of falling to the Darkside. THroughout the film Fairfax is horrified as Cromwell betrays the ideals he thought they shared in a ruthless effort to consolidate power, all for the 'greater good' in Cromwell's point of view. 

Just tossing out ideas. I don't know about you guys, but for all the talk about 'the power of the dark side,' Anakin entering a Faustian bargain with Palpy struck me as a little anticlimactic. I thought when he iced the sandpeople village, that was a major character point, but in the end it didn't factor into his 'turn.' Nailing Anakin's fall thematicallly will be pivotal.

WheresBlackhawk said:

Sigh...it appears everyone's interest has waned.

 My interest hasn't! In fact, it was all I was thinkng about on the commute home today (although admitedly my car stereo is broken :)

I think we hit a snag on a thorny issue of hard/soft sci-fi before the project got rollicking with momentum from all the cool ideas we AGREED on. Clones be damned!

I think the Anakin/Beru/Owen family unit, and the idea of making Bail Organa a major heroic character were SPOT ON. Episode One should be a rip-rollicking swashbuckling adventure flick with Obi-Wan as the main hero, and Bail and Anakin as his crew.

If we aim to NOT worry too much about clones, and the exact manner of the fall of the Jedi and Republic until Ep. 2, maybe we can keep brainstorming ideas and plot points for Episode 1.

Let's call the Ep. 1 baddies 'Mandalorians,' just for the sake of a name, (call them Bob for all I care right now) and worry about how they fit into the bigger picture later (like how Lucas did with the Empire and Darth Vader).

The Mandalorians need a leader, and probably a secondary villain. I'll try and come up with some ideas ASAP.

Also, since the Emperor is out their somewhere, whether Palpy himself is in Ep. 1 or not, it's not unfeasible to have a dark Jedi involved somehow, because evil Jedi are awesome and lets us have lightsabre fights. He doesn't need to be identified as 'Sith,' even if we chose to incorporate the Sith organization in later episodes or not. Some mysterious black garbed, red-sabred badass involved in the plot (even tangentally, perhaps even at odds with the Mandalorians)  could be cool.

The "I need air" pic needs to go on the threat 'what to do after Adywan.' It's the one great improvement Ep. 4 still desperatly needs.