TheBoost

C3PX said:

I dunno, I still think the costumes of the PT were one of the few things that were not bullshit. 

 

(according to the OT, but contradicted by the PT, the Empire begings conscripting young men from around the galaxy to be Stormtroopers and pilots in the Imperial Navy.)

 

I wish George could have better managed this with the ships. Instead, everyone of the rediculous models we see in the PT are completely missing in the OT. It makes sense for clothes to go away and disappear, but ships, like cars, don't just wind up spending the rest of their existence in thrift store like clothes do. You still see really old cars driving around, some restored, some chugging around as dilapidated piles of crap, some resting in scrap yards. A galaxy full of ships doesn't just vanish. This screwup was a much larger piece of bullshit glistening in the PT than the wardrobe was.

 Every time I hear the complaint that the OT looks less advanced than the PT, I always argue back that it's not less advanced, things are BIGGER and UGLIER. Obviously the Empire, like Soviet Russia, liked things big and functional looking.

About seeing PT ships in the OT... I don't see why that would be the case. In the PT, we see the shiny ships of Naboo, and the navies of the Trade Federation and the Republic Army. That's about it. In the OT we see the Imperial Navy (clearly designed to have descended from the Republic Navy) and the Rebel Fleet (various fighters and a couple different models of capital ships, including the Mon Calamaia ships). In a galaxy that size, I don't see why we should assume the Rebels didn't score most of their ships from some source never even seen in the PT.

(Where in the OT is it stated the Stormtroopers are consripts?)

I'm with you. I dug the costumes. Amidala's ceremonial headgear is really no more outrageous than some things royalty wear here on Earth.

That photo looks  a little photoshopped. Are we sure it's even legit?

skyjedi2005 said:

 So i believe it was collaboration more than anything.  You see you had Lucas when he was actually still a good filmaker, Kasden when he still could write, Kersh when he could still direct and Kurtz as the producer.

Plus some of the best work of the Old ILM, John Williams Score, the actors gave good performances.  Some of the best Cinematography in the saga.  They actually put out a sequel that was better than the first film. Something that rarely happens in film.

 Really, I think the nail has been struck on it's proverbial head. Strong collaboration made the best Star Warses.

In "Star Wars" you have the collaboration of young excited Lucas directing, an amazing cast, good writing (and script polishing), and solid editing (the then Mrs. Lucas).

"Empire" has Kershner directing (which from a filmmaking point of view is inarguably the most sophisitaced of the OT, as well as getting the best character performances out of the actors), Lucas's best story, great music, and perhaps the best puppet-performance ever captured on film.

Scruffy said:

Re: Boba Fett, I am always surprised by how many OOT fans ignore the bit about the "pain and agony as you are slowly digested for a thousand years[*]." Taken at face value, Boba Fett could not possibly have died during Return of the Jedi. If we assume that Jabba was exaggerating by several orders of magnitude ... Boba Fett could not possibly have died during Return of the Jedi. I'd like to think anyone who fell into the Pit of Carkoon died quickly and painlessly, because I have an aversion to torture, but Jabba does not, so I think they survived in the Sarlacc a long time. And I think the guy covered in armor, weapons, and a jet pack could maybe get out. Turns out the people who Lucas's corporation hired to continue Star Wars agree with me on this one.

[*] You could try to knock a few centuries off the survival time by arguing that most of the digestion must be post mortem. However, Threepio's language is clear: The pain and agony are coterminous with the thousand years of digestion. How a human being could survive being lunch for a millennium is something else that the DESB explores. And it gives us this line which elevates an otherwise average roleplaying supplement to great literature: "Half a kiloton was excessive, even for Fett."

3PO wasn't lecturing on xenobiology, he was translating for Jabba, who had a clear, almost religious revererence for the 'Allmighty Sarlac' (slugaliens need to stick together). I always figured it was just hyberbole.

Vaderisnothayden said:

 

 

Xizor is a Mary Sue because the story goes "Look at our cool villain, look he's so cool he can rival Darth Vader and get fresh with Leia."

 So... you'd be more compelled by a villain who isn't cool, doesn't try to challenge the status quo, and leaves the heroes alone? (and in case you forgot, he was pwned by his Darthness and Leia kicked him in the nuts)

Vaderisnothayden said:

C3PX said:

I also don't see what is so wrong with the story making everything from ROTJ "come together in a nice little bow". Leia had to get the detonator and the bounty hunter armor from someplace, what is so wrong about the story explaining where she got it from.

 

In ROTJ it looked like the bounty hunter disguise was a cool thing the main characters had come up with. Shadows takes that away from them and makes it somebody else's idea.

Shadows is full of bogus stuff that doesn't fit in and doesn't fit the films and a lot of bullshit "explanation" for how things got the way they did in ROTJ. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't pushed as THE story of what happened between ESB and ROTJ, but it was and as such you're effectively force-fed this third rate fan fiction as a rightful part of the Star Wars saga. Lucas liked it, which is a bad sign. And he stuffed Bash Fender's bleedin ship into the SE. Expanded universe doesn't belong in the OT.

Xizor was a Mary Sue, as was Bash Fender and Jix, and they flogged Boba Fett but good in the comic, which just creeps me out. And the comic even had Jabba talking in basic, which doesn't fit him at all.

I agree that a lot of the "ROTJ" set-up felt awkwardly inserted, and a bit unnneccessary. I'd never laid awake at night wondering how Leia got a thermal detonator.

I'm confused at your objection that it was pushed as THE storyline. Isn't all EU "THE' storyline either between, after, or before the real stories of the movie?

I don't see how Xixor is a 'Mary Sue.' He's the villain, does villainous things to forward the plot, is clearly and repeatedly thwarted by the heroes and then pwned by the other villains.

I dislike the term 'Mary Sue' in general, but Thrawn is one of the few places the application of it seems clear. Thrawn is a new character who is smarter, better, and cooler than the actual Star Wars heroes, and by 'Outbound Flight' we learn he's clearly morally in the right as well, only wanting to unite the galaxy to fight the Yuhzhong Vohg. Xixor is none of these things. He's a despicable villain who presents challenges that the heroes overcome by being better than he is.  

DarkFather said:

Until then, I'm interested in everyone's opinions of these two central EU villains and their tales.

So far I see a trend of Thrawn Trilogy being almost universally accepted as great, while Shadows seems to be more of a mixed back.

 In many ways Thrawn is the more compelling villain. Right off the bat, he's the central antagonist in a galaxy spanning trilogy, comparted to Xixor, who's the baddie of a much smaller story sandwiched between 'Empire' and 'Jedi.'

Thrawn avoids any comparison with Vader because he's basically an anti-Vader. Cool, calculatuting, and a good manager. I also think this is a weakness dramatically. Zahn goes so out of his way to show what a swell guy Thrawn is, you find yourself wondering why you're rooting against him. He gives polite pep talks, and is very forgiving. (Zahn does a similar thing with Talon Kardde. He's the nicest most kidnest most honest crime lord in the galaxy, and even Mara Jade is a great person minus her one character flaw of being obsessed with killing Luke). In fact, Thrawn is so perfect and brilliant, when he dies it feels like one of the least satisfying endings ever. "How did THAT happen?!?!" you'll ask yourself. It feels like if at the end of ROTJ Palpatine had tripped on his own robe and died falling down the stairs.

Xixor spends his novel playing opposite Vader, and frankly NO ONE looks cool when compared to Big Black. However, as a sinister crime lord he's a good villain. He's a little 'Fu Manchu' with his elegant robes and evil scheme. His plan to chemically seduce Leia is at least unique, and the battle at his Skyhook palace is a major setpiece that felt very in line with the action of the OT.

If you like Thrawn, STOP at 'The Last Command." In Zahn's other books, Zahn bends over backwards explaining that not only is Thrawn the greatest person ever born, he's also completely ethical, moral, and always right. The universe would have been a better place if stupid Luke and the gang hadn't stopped old Thrawny. Stupid heroes.

I can not imagine any feasible plot where Xixor would have been in the slighest bit reasonable to make a play for being the Emperor. He's a criminal and an alien who lives in the shadows. Any plot where he thought he could take over the entire Empire would have strained credibility to the breaking point. I found his goal to take personal vengeance on Vader and in the process make himself the second most powerful man in the galaxy a pretty solid plot.

I'd say Thrawn is the more interesting, but hampered by a plot I don't care for, and I think text-book Mary Sueism (A new character who completely overshadows the real characters while showing how brilliant the author is). Prince Xixor is a fine villian for his role, which is a smaller story in every respect which is hampered as it seems designed to set up minutia for ROTJ rather than just cut loose.

Regardless, the Thrawn Trilogy and SOTE are two of my favorite EUs.

I think 'Han Solo and the Lost Legacy' is great. The villain with the mustache who wanted to outdraw Han Solo was just epic.

I also think the writing on the TIE Fighter games were great. The stories were compelling, and the 'secret missions' that got you into the Secret Order of the Empire were usually more fun than the regular missions.

A few of the PT era novels were also a lot of fun. "Approaching Storm" and "Labrynth of Evil" both stand out in my mind. "Shatterpoint" was weird but good, even though I usually don't care for too much esoteric philosophy in my Star Wars.

Vaderisnothayden said:

Some time I'd like a thread about what we don't like in the EU. That would be fun. I'd get to go on about all the annoying Boba Fett worship that goes on in the EU.

What would be the purpose of such a thread? Even in this thread, 4/5 of your post is about what you don't like. 

As the title says, surely in the MASSIVE ammount of EU material, some of it has to appeal to you.

I like Grand Admiral Thrawn as a character. I don't care for the storylines particuarly, but the idea of this brilliant alien tactitian hidden by the Empire due to racism, and now back to kick the Rebel's behinds struck me as a real cool villain and a sharp contrast to Vader and Palpy.

I like the "Legacy" comic. A new threat, 100+ years later, where the newest Skywalker needs to get his act together and save the day is compelling to me. I dig that in a few generations what's left of the Empire isn't half bad, I like Imprial Knights as a third class of force-users, and Darth Krayt (minus his horrible ties to the stinking Yuzong Vonhg) is a threatening villain.

So... what don't you hate do you like?

Vaderisnothayden said:

As regards Anakin's age, it may not have been SAID in the film, but it certainly did get into the film, because we have this old actor playing Anakin. Any attempt to claim that well Anakin was 46 but prematurely aged is just obvious retcon. If they wanted a 46 year old Anakin they would have gotten an actor of compatible age. Nobody can reasonably look at the 77 year old on the screen and think there isn't something a bit funny with the idea of him being just 23 all of 23 years before like the present offical story says he was. Anakin was intended to be an old man in ROTJ and they put that in the film by making him an old man on the screen. Which puts him in his 30s or 40s at the time of his turn to the dark side.

And re the last bit, Luke and Leia's "kind" (see ROTJ) mother wouldn't likely have been hanging around with Anakin long after he turned dark, so the conception of the children would have been before Anakin turned or not long after he turned. We're also told (in ROTJ) that the children were hidden from Anakin when they were born, indicating Anakin had turned dark by the time they were born. This all places Anakin's turn sometime around the time of Luke's birth. All of that is consistent with the prequels version of the story. Luke is meant to be about 18-20 in the first film and ROTJ is a few years later (and the present version of the story has him 19 in ANH and 23 in ROTJ). That puts Anakin's turn at about 23 or so years before ROTJ. Which makes him 30s or 40s when he turned.

 All the points you make about Anakin's age I agree with whole heartedly. The plot to TPM could have been identical, and perhaps slightly less annoying, with an older Anakin. He might have been in his late 20s in AOTC and clearly into his 30s by ROTS.

I also REALLY REALLY hate that Padme died, because it kills the sympathy for Luke that Leia was raised by her momma as a princess, and he was raised in a crummy desert by his crusty 'Uncle.' It also totally ruins one of Leia's key emotional moments, when she remembers her mom. It seems to me she could have faked her death, and lived in hiding for the remainder of her short life.

But arguing that Greivous, Maul, or Dooku did or didn't exist seems less important. Lucas clearly doesn't concern himself too much with the secondary villains in his stories (he calls them 'sidekicks'). Whether they existed or not in some form ("Apprentice Sith Lord" or "Droid General" or whatever) might be interesting, but not, in my opinon, terribly relevant to whether something is 'The original vision.'

Sounds fun.

Although I think many of us never thought of the SE as 'Dark Times,' in fact I recall most fans thinking they were at least kinda cool, until Lucas started his "The SE are now the REAL and ONLY Star Wars" spiel.

And don't sweat People vs. George. Just avoid any fat dudes with guitars singing about their raped childhoods, and you'll be fine.

doubleofive said:

DONE.

Final tally: 290

Screennames starting with "Darth": 22

Duplicates?

Boost = TheBoost ?
professa = professa skiving at work ?
Darth Stewie = DarthStewie ?
CLIVE_FERRYHILL = clive_ferryhill_jedi ?

Posted to my googlepage.  PM me if you're not on there.  I'm keeping the "civilian names" elsewhere.

I was indeed 'Boost' but I forgot that password because I'm dumb.

Vaderisnothayden said:

For a look at what the official interpretation of ROTJ's ending was back in 83, take a look at the last lines of the ROTJ novelization. It says "The Empire was dead. Long live the Alliance." There you have it.

The nature of the scenes at the end of ROTJ gives a clear emotional message that the war is over and the empire is done. If you get bogged down in the logic and try to think of Star Wars as if it was meant to be realistic then you'll blind yourself to that emotional message. Baronlando got it right -it's a fairytale ending. Star Wars is a fairytale, not realistic science fiction.

In the original film, the intention is that the empire is over and that's the real story as far as I'm concerned.

 I'm not 100% sure I agree. They're celebrating, and really happy, but they celebrated and were happy at the end of 'Star Wars' also. Unless we're counting the novelizations as the same as the movie, which I don't. They're EU too, to me.

Endor was a major victory, a pivotal victory, but they never say in the movie it HAS to be the final victory. Mon Mothma doesn't say 'If we win this, it's over.' Alternatly, I see no reason to insist the Empire, or some form of it, would continue, but I also don't see any die hard reason in the movie to maintain that all the fighting is over.

wwdarth said:

But...why?  Hopefully, just for the fun of it.

STAR WARS is what it is.  An amazing piece of entertainment.  I was 7 years old in 77, so believe me when I say it literally changed my life...not to mention giving me a tremendous childhood.  White sabres can be annoying, but there is a also a certain charm that goes along with grainy film and that original LUCASFILM logo. 

Don't get me wrong, what Adywan did was...incredible, and he should be applauded for such a time consuming, creative undertaking.  If nothing else, it's a bold statement to Lucas to say this is how you fix a lightsabre...it's really not all that hard to tell the difference between blue and green.  If Adywan can make a cinema quality special edition, why can't Lucas fix the blatant errors with his own professional release?  I'm all for recompositing fx shots to get rid of matte lines as well as other subtle digital fixes where the original just wasn't good enough.  However, if I'm being honest that's where I would draw the line at repairs.

Yes it's fun to hear "Vader's March" in ANH, or find out the limits of a new space battle on home video/computer equipment...but some things should remain the same.  When Obi-Wan paused to exchange with a telling smile with Vader befor being cut down, it was that musical cue that brings me back to childhood viewings and embodies the original film.  Yes, it was interesting to see how the prequal music fit over the beginning of the scene which wasn't scored...but if the original cue now is substituted or sped up to make room for a prequal cue, to me at least, that's just as bad as Greedo shooting first. 

Preach on brother.

Like you, I also totally dig Adywan's work. But what he did, while very cool, didn't perfect the movie. In my mind, 'Star Wars' was perfect to begin with.

I used to have my SE VHS on the shelf next to the REAL versions. Now I happily have Ady's version in the same DVD case as the REAL version (laserdisk rip).

Although I disagree on drawing the line at repairs. That's one of the reasons I like Ady's title "Revisited." It, and all OT fan edits, can only ADD to the experience and the love, they can never replace it. It lets me experience it again, with fresh eyes.

I also like it because I convinced my roommate it was the sequal to Brideshead Revisited.

Now, I'm not a big fan of Post-ROTJ EU, but it seems to me that what is portrayed there is a fairly satisfying and logical situation.

The Emperor is dead, as is Death Star, Vader, and at least a few key military commanders and the flagship of the fleet. Existing Imperial morale is devastated.

Rebel Alliance, with huge momentum after Endor, gain more allies and strength and go on the offensive. Open rebellions begin to occur (one way to interpret the SE added scenes).

Existing Imperial power structure, now free of the nigh unlimited executive, fractures as the powerful regional governors (and of course TRIOCULUS!) miliraty commanders and religious leaders engage in infighting further weakening the Empire.

Even if the Empire isn't magically instantly over, it was at least the beggining of the end (or the end of the beggining?). Major celebrating is in order.

Vaderisnothayden said:

Anchorhead said:

DarkFather said:

I absolutely love Leia's voice in this.

+1

 

I prefer her over Fisher.  Much more expressive and a deeper character.  Part of the depth comes from the fact that she has a much bigger role in this version.  This is six hours vs two, and Leia is central to a great deal of it.  The chapter with her and her father on Alderaan is one of my favorite parts of the story.

 

Fisher as Leia is bloody marvellous. No way does the radio actress do better. I hate the Leia chapter of the radio drama. It feels very fake to me. Plus the actress gets Leia all wrong.

 

 It's kinda apples and oranges. Radio drama is a whole different ballgame than film acting. Would Carrie Fisher's husky voice fading in and out of English accent be as compelling without her defiant chin in the air, facial expressions, and body language? Would the NPR actess be too overwrought if we could see her face in adition to hearing her extemely emotive voice?

Mark Hamil did a fine job, but look how successful a voice actor he's been in the past. 

Bingowings said:

I believe various versions of the Force theme have been experimented with already with some success (using it creates problems though particularly what do you do with Vader's cremation which already has it).

 I for one love the Yub Yub song, but one possibility is to have 'The Immolation Scene' music from ROTS play during the pyre, and Force theme during the end.

But yub yub rocks.

Vaderisnothayden said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Even if Revenge of the Sith is by far and large critically and received by fans of the prequels as the best of the 3 the acting is horrible.  The Lightsaber duel was pretty awesome minus the rediculous riding over the lava on droids part, and was really trying to be a redo of duel of the fates from menace.  But Haydens " You underestimate my power"  was beyond bad acting.  And then of course you have the Emperor and Yoda acting like they are in a loony tunes cartoon.  And then Vader walking like Frankenstein and goin N000000000000000000!!!.   Nearly as bad as Shia swinging with monkeys like Tarzan in indiana jones 4, or the flying in a nuked fridge,lol.  Indiana had a nice three mile ride through the air and just gets up and dust himself off.

 

And then we have Anakin's ranting. When he rants about how from his point of view the Jedi are evil he looks like he's about to burst into tears like a little kid. When he screams "You underestimate my power!" the lameness factor is mind-boggling. And then later after he's been chopped up and fried he screams at Kenobi "I hate you!" like a little kid who's been denied a treat. I half expect to shout "If you don't say I won, I'll hold my breath until  you do!" Between the script and the talents of Hayden Christensen the character of Darth Vader is totally rubbed in the shit in this scene.

Overall I think the scene is one big load of meaningless pompous overdone show and one of the worst scenes I've ever seen in any film ever.

The Emperor and Yoda fight was awful. Horrible overacting for the Emperor. Annoying CGI Yoda with his macho posing that's so totally inappropriate for the character. It was hard to decide which character was more annoying. I wanted to flush both of them down the toilet. And that was intercut with the Mustafar scene, for maximum lameness.

 You guys don't like the PT?! And you don't like Hayden!!?! Or Indy 4!!? I had no idea!

I wonder if the topic of a thread was "Who Likes Birthday Cake" if you would respond with why you hate the PT.

Owen-Lars-Kenobi said:

I'm not quite sure what I think of the addition of Hayden, though I fully understand why Hayden was added.  I mean, the thought that Anakin 'died' when he turned to the dark side makes alot of sense to me.  At the same time, the shots of Shaw have sentimental value in my mind... and they arent a reused screen test.

Vader and ObiWan both say that Anakin died, but they're wrong. Luke is right. "It's your true name, you've only forgotten it." He redeems Vader because Anakin was never really 'dead' in the way Vader and Obi and Palpy thought he was.

ADYWAN-

I have some questions for you, although not 'Edit' specific. If you have time, consider this kinda an interview.

1- What change have you made (Star Wars or ESB) that you liked the most?

2- Has there been anything you wish you could edit, but never found the best way to fix?

3- Have you ever found yourself opinions swayed, or been particuarly surprised at the suggestions or comments of the boards?

4- Have you ever gone about fixing something, only to decide after you liked it better before, or instead that afterwars you liked the new way it was so much you felt like you wanted to do more?

5- If you could have a beer with George Lucas, what would you say to him?

DarkFather said:

If Anakin had been allowed to visit his mother and keep better track of her, I doubt he would have ever turned to the dark side. The only reason he reacted so desperately in reaction to the premonitions he was having about Padme's childbirth death, was because he already had the experience of forseeing his mother's death, which came true.

 So, if Anakin had been alowed to check up on his mum, he would have been just fine if say, she was hit by a bus, or died of the plague, or eating a bad mushroom? Then he would have just sighed and said 'such is the way of life and death and the Force.' Or would he have gone all lightsaber-crazy on the busdriver?

Or if he did save her, would continuing fear for his mother lead to another premonition, then another, then another.

"I don't want things to change." he said as a kid. If he saved her, would he come to beleive that he could control everything, since it's his actions alone that granted his beloved mother life? Would he need more control, and more power to protect all the people he loved? Would his obsessive fear of loss be lessened by saving his mother one time? I don't think it would.

darthmunky said:

Speaking of Anakin, Should the scar on his eye be added to Shaw's face? I think so.

 That seems like a nice, subtle way to tie the trilogies together. I wouldn't mind it at all.

darthmunky said:

Well if Qui Gon deserves to be there, Mace should be there too. But having them there seems redicules to me. If I were Qui Gon's ghost, I wouldn't show up on some Ewok planet just to smile at Luke, especially since I would have never met him.

 Even though I'm against adding anyone, Qui Gon at least discovered the secret of maintaing his identity in the force. Mace died without learning that secret. Obi and Yoda went and spent a lot of time mastering it.

Remember, Vader had never heard of it in "Star Wars." Obi had to explain that 'should you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.'  Vader didn't respond "I know all about that. Mace Windu's force ghost has been following me around for years calling me all sorts of rude names."

The Clone Wars "movie" had amazing animation for television. As a big screen spectacular, it wasn't exactly up to par with the biggies (Pixar, Disney) but I think technically it was superior to the lower CGI movies (Happily Never After, Veggie Tales).