TheBoost

haljordan28 said:

here is the problem. you  are looking  at this all from the perspective of looking back on the OT duels AFTER  watching the PT films. You must look at the OT  duels before the PT came out.  No one thought the duels were WEAK or SLOW  or   not  flashy. 

You're looking at this from the perspective of being defensive because kids in the park with a broomstick are pretending to be Darth Maul instead of Luke, and that deeply bothers you.

If the PT never came out, it still makes PERFECT SENSE that Luke/Vader II was faster and more dynamic that Obi/Vader because Obi was an old man and Luke was a full fledged Jedi Knight. It makes sense that Vader doesn't do flips and shit because he's seven feet tall in full body armor. The fact the same blatantly obvious story-logic extends to the fights in the PT does not make it somehow invalid. Just watch the movies. It's all there.

The duel in ANH is great, but its still and old man and a heavy cyborg.

haljordan28 said:
heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....

I missed this in your OP, but you are perhaps aware that the Jedi are overwhelmingly influenced by Lucas's well-documented love of Samurai movies right? If you read, I recommend Zombie's book. 

http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/book.html

haljordan28 said:
dont get me wrong. there are actually some things I like aboyut the PT.

haljordan28 said:

now excuse me while i go take a shit and wipe my  azz with a prequel picture.  I mean JUNKQUEL picture  or piece of shit picture....ahh whop cares   it all  comesdown to the same thing.  prequel. haha

Forgive us. Honest mistake really.

OzoneSherrif said:

I wonder why in the ESB duel Vader remarks "impressive, most impressive" when all Luke did was a simple force jump. seriously that was impressive? what about all the commonplace force powers the Jedi flaunted all the time as depicted in the prequels? not a big deal.

Two thoughts.

1. He was surprised that Luke, with such minimal training, could do anything better than swing a lightsaber awkwardly.
2. Force jumping super high IS impressive as a Jedi power, and the Jedi we saw doing it in the PT were all badasses.

Bingowings said:

Where Lucas went wrong was not matching the ability of the OT characters to those in the PT like with like.

Dooku spins, cartwheels, leaps and kicks in a way that makes Ben look...well like a real old guy using a sword.

Vader is a cyborg in the OT and yes he only has two arms and his hands don't spin at the wrist (which begs the question why if he is a more advanced cyborg?) but he is also a powerful Force user so he should have an edge over a non-Sith, non-Jedi Cyborg even with his extra spindles.

The cyborg/old man line doesn't really hold that much water with me.

I would say that Dooku spinning and flipping like Greg Louganis makes DOOKU look bad, not Obi-Wan in ANH.

(although for what it's worth, Obi in ANH and Luke in ESB both have at least one 'spin around for no apparent reason' moment)

Forget everything George Lucas has ever said. Forget all external explanations and look at the films.

Obi-Wan is an old man. While quick as a whip at times (the cantina) he's still and old man. Vader even mentions is ("your powers are weak old man").Obi's powers are of a more spiritual nature ("strike me down... yada yada")

Vader is a massive man in cumbersome armor. Whether he was supposed to be mechanical or not in ANH is irrelevant, nimbleness is not his gimmick. He's a fucking tank.

The fight bewteen Obi and Vader in "Star Wars" is exactly what a fight between an old man and a black armored cyborg juggernaut should be. Pointing out it's an old man v.s a cyborg is not implying there's something wrong with it.

Go to ESB and you have Luke, who's way faster than Obi and all full of juice, up against the slower Vader. Vader still totally out matches Luke, casually kicking his ass with a one handed defense and then telekinetically throwing shit at him.

Just because Vader is a cyborg doesn't mean he's not badass. This is exactly what a fight between a rookie v.s a cyborg should be. It's more dynamic than the duel in ANH but not as frenzied as their rematch in ROTJ when Luke is no longer a rookie.

TPM has Darth Maul, who's a whirling dervish of death, the likes of which we hadn't yet seen, and a lot of the pizazz in that fight comes from the fact it's also a chase.

ROTS has two of the best Jedi in the galaxy going at eachother with all they have, and given how the Jedi use the force in the PT (love it or hate it) I think the fight makes sense up until the FX orgy when the building collapses.

So we can look at the evolution of lightsaber fights as a change brought on by better FX, more attention paid to choreography, and eventually Lucas's changing philosophy of spectacle over story.

OR

We can see the same fights as making sense based on who is fighting, why and how, as presented in the films. There is no need for any kind of external explanation. And while the PT as a whole suffers from style over substance, those saber duels makes sense to be more dynamic (dynamic =/= better) given who's fighting, why and how.

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

sorry but you  are dead wrong.   I do have training in  sword play  and ROTJ  wqas  strictly fencing and europeon. when vader says  he would go after leia and luke lunges out and  you  see like and vader heading to the bridge     the stances  are  as clear to see as the nose on your face.  its pure fencing.europeon.  i dont care if you believe it or not. it makes no difference to me.

 

and as far as vader being machine in a new hoipe you  are proving your ignorance once again.  at the time  lucas had not decided if vader  was  human or  cyborg under  the costume.  he said  he  worried how people would react  to  either  way.  he did not make that call till episode 5.  perhaops you need to do some more research before trying to run your mouth and look like a know it all.

You're 36 and have training in swordplay. Given that you apparently know jack about swords, and have the grammar and maturity of a low-performing 7th grader, those aren't exactly bragging. If you tell us you're 9 we might be impressed. If you really are 36, your posts are kinda sad.

But since you were there in the late 70s, no doubt first in line when "Star Wars" came out, you must have seen some special version where Obi-Wan isn't an old man and Vader isn't a lumbering giant with mechanized breathing and cumbersome armor. You also must have seen the Super-Secret-Original-Empire-Strikes-Back where Luke isn't unprepared to face Vader and doesn't get his ass kicked.

For the rest of us, those WERE in the movies we saw. So it makes perfect sense story wise that each lightsaber fight was more impressive than the last one.

And don't kid. Of COURSE it makes a huge difference to you if strangers on a message board believe you're a 36 year old sword master. It's probably the highlight of your weekend to claim that.

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

 

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

 

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

 

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

I don't think George Lucas NEEDED to say "I have an old man and a man in a big clunky suit of armor" because unless you didn't notice THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD. You have seen the movie, right?

Did you buy your "HAN SHOT FIRST" t-shirt one size to small, because it's apparently restricting blood flow to your brain.

OT choreographer Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer, but in case you didn't know, the lightsaber fights in the movie bears no resemblence to fencing. None at all. Rent "The Princess Bride" to see what that looks like (also by Bob Anderson).

Interesting that fights with Iron age short swords ("Gladiator") huge claymores ("Braveheart"), medieval longswords ("LOTR") and lazer-swords ("Star Wars") all look the same to you. This weakens your reputation as an expert in this field somewhat.

I'm no master swordsman, but the fighting in ROTJ looks passingly like Japanese (EDIT: That's in Asia FYI) kendo swordfighting at times, which interestingly enough is what Mark Hamill trained on. The movie fight also involves flying backflips and telekinesis, which admittedly aren't normally part of kendo.

As for us "so CALLED fans" v.s you "true fans," I'm guessing from your thought processes and typing that you're in junior high, so I've been a fan for about two decades longer than you. Show some respect junior.

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

adywan said:

TheBoost said:

But with Yoda the blinks feel unnessesary.

A few people have commented on the blinks. The most commented on one was his final blink just before he says "that, is why you fail.." where it's been said that it looks too fake and that Yoda doesn't blink. Well that one right there isn't new. It's original and there in 1980. 

For what it's worth, even if I quibble with the necessity of added blinks, your blinks look so good I can't tell them from the real blinks the physical puppet did.

LexX said:

TheBoost said:

LexX said:

Qui-Gon is supposed to be older than Obi-Wan is in SW... Yeah, right.

He is? Where does it say that?

Neeson was in his late 40s. Guiness was 62.

According to Chewbaccapedia Qui-Gon was 60 and Obi was 57.

Sheesh. Qui-Gon must use some good moisturizer.

LexX said:

Qui-Gon is supposed to be older than Obi-Wan is in SW... Yeah, right.

He is? Where does it say that?

Neeson was in his late 40s. Guiness was 62.

haljordan28 said:

Alexrd said:

haljordan28 said:

 

 

EVERYONE   HATED THE DIRECTION LUCAS TOOK THING...HAMIL,  FORD,   KURTZ,  KASDAN....EVERYONE.  AND WE ALL SEE WHY  CAUSE WE ALL SEE THEW OUTCOME OF THE  PREQUELS AKA  JUNKQUELS

No.

just another prequel fan in denial .  sorry if the truth hurts prequel lover.  but YES. everything  I just posted is fact  not my opinion

Between "Junkquels" and using "prequel lover" as a prejorative, I have to ask:

How old are you?

haljordan28 said:

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

 

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

 

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

 

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

It also seems odd that you use evidence from the PT (Dooku and Yoda lightsabering) to discredit the OT claim that Obi was old and out of practice.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

haljordan28 said:

it  was about that time that Lucas ideas and direction changed from what he and kurtz planed to do with the frnachise and  lucas got more motivated   by selling toys  and mass appeal    and he rewrote  return of the jedi completly  from what  they had originally planed for it.

 Sheesh. That George Lucas being motivated by mass appeal! What a shmoe!

I wish he has stuck to the grim and depressing vision he put out in "Star Wars." That bleak and unappealing film uncompromisingly showed the viewing audience the bitter truths of life. It was an unflinching look at ennui and lonliness that will never be matched.

I can't beleive he sold out for ROTJ and added cute robots, funny aliens, swashbuckling action, and a fairy tale ending. Those totally don't match the original intent of ANH.

Fanhate is such a terrible thing.

DoubleFeatureShow.com is a popular film podcast where a couple of dudes with little knowledge but a lot of opinions talk movies. I listen to it occasionally.

Last episode they got to talking about Star Wars, and Kurosawa's influences on it. One of the hosts actually accused Star Wars of stealing shots from Kurosawa's films Hidden Fortress and Hero With 1,000 Faces.

Not only do I stand that this means he has to be a poseur who hasn't actually seen Hidden Fortress it also means he doesn't actually know what Hero With 1,000 Faces even is except that it has something to do with Star Wars, and lets him dismiss a popular film.

TV's Frink said:

 

...

Wait, why are we taking these threads serious again?

 Because it's this or post more pictures of purses.

Bingowings said:

If I remember correctly AxiaEuxine is very pro-PT (though I haven't seen him/her around much recently).

 Interestingly, I head that Axia and VINH met in real life and hit it off, kind of a crazy odd-couple thing. Word is they opened a SW themed beach bar in Thailand.

I don't know what your saying.

For what it's worth, Ackbar's ship wasn't shot by the DS.

Bingowings said:

He was only slightly wrong though ;-D

It seems that most of us here range from mildly to very disapointed with the PT, with a few rabid haters. I don't know if we have any members with massive PT love.

I could be wrong, but no one ever sides with me when I defend the PT.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Alexrd said:

I do wonder why does someone waste time of their life on bashing something they hate,

This really cracks me up. If it's a senseless waste of time for someone to go online and complain about how much he hated a particular movie, then how much more of a senseless waste of time must it be to go online and complain about how much you dislike people who go online to complain about movies they disliked?

 I hate people who point that out!

I still stand that reviewer loses some cred when he spends five minutes complaining that the robot in the first scene somehow knew QuiGon and Obi were Jedi.

hal, all snark aside, where did you get the impression you were surrounded by rapid PT lovers? Was it the name of the website?

I mean, while opinions vary, this bunch tends to lean towards the OT.

Getting hyped to watch "Dante's Peak" six times in the next two days.

Amazing clip. I'm not even sure exactly what you did to Yoda, he looks great.

I will offer my opinion that the blinks specifically don't work for me. I think they worked well on Greedo in ANH:R because the Greedo mask didn't have much of a performance in the first place.

But with Yoda the blinks feel unnessesary. All joking aside, look at any Michael Caine perofrmance. The man never blinks. Neither did Yoda. While it might have been a limitation of the puppet, it was also a strength of the performance.

That's of course just my thought, and the blinks look great technically, regardless of my opinion on their effectiveness.

haljordan28 said:

 when in reality  anakin should have started the same age as luke or  at min 14 or 15 yrs old.

  

 I can't place my finger on it... but there's something funny about this.

--All You Zombies--- is such a totally sexy story.

haljordan28 said:

...etc..etc   everything he did  was based on some guy in a  boardroom telling him how to appeal to kids in this generation and how to make the most movie.  anyone who believes different is  living in a fantasy  land. 

 It's amazing that five years after the last PT came out, those films still ilicit inarticulate rage in people.

For what it's worth, for all his faults as a filmmaker George Lucas has NO ONE in a board room, nor anywhere else, tell him what to do.

TV's Frink said:

^I've never heard a kid say that.

 Because they say it about you, behind you back.

BURN!