Bingowings said:
I meant out of the two versions yours was closer (in my opinion) to perfection (though both were well done).
ok !
but where did you see the bob version of this sequence ? (it's not on the first page of his topic)
even if I can't bear the dialogues here... it looks much better, very good
Bingowings said:
but I think your version just about nails it for me.
Sorry Bingo, what do you mean ? I am french, my translator doesn't give me something understandable.
Brash_stryker, I extracted and cleaned up this sound from ESB (duel with Vader)
Thanks all !
Thank you Tobar, I'm glad you like my work !
vaderios said
@The Cutter. I just notice that you crushed the levels in some of the frames when Palps hitting the lighting bolts. I really loved that! Keep these surprises coming. I also noted that you were add real lightning/storm sounds. I had to say that because i had this idea when i wanted to propose ideas for ROTJ. I like your way of approach ;)
Thank you !
I have searched all the way to improve this...the sound design allows many possibilities ! I am glad you notice this.
vaderios said
I can provide clean plates if you want as Tobar said. ;) Use no limit as limitation!
OMG..where, when, what ? it would be really great !
vaderios said
It could be ideal even subtle as death adding the iconic background sound that appears in the throne room in ROTJ (and somewhere else in ESB) to places like when palps gives the name to DV or to any senate rooms.
I used your idea in my new video :
Part - 8 Darth Vader first strike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O_jRsZzH7k
Modificitions here mainly concern the sound and music. Why using arena music to illustrate the attack ot the Jedi temple ?...I don't like it.
Hi bob
Yes I think there is actually a problem, it's really dark on my screen
HotRod said:
plus rotten teeth, greyish hands, and a full head of hair!! Not the sort of thing lighting would do...but what do I know!!!?!?
Yes !! I forgot this...omg
I don't like the concept of changeling, but I think that if Lucas introduced it on episode 2 with Zam wesell, it's because he wanted to use it for Palpatine...he changed his mind in the meantime.
rpve, just a little word to say that I do not hate you ! this is the path of the dark side : )
I have no doubt that if we were both in front of my computer our discussion would have been much easier.
these kind of "headlock" are the joy of forums !
brash_stryker said:
The Cutter. If you do intend to keep the changeling bit in there, you need to shorten the fade.
At the moment, because of it fading into the original "she" it sounds like he's saying "shangeling".
Thanks, I will see what I can do.
I little explanation about that : in this edit, Palpatine is not a changeling, he use the dark side to hide is true identity. Anakin just feel it and think it's because he is a changeling (Anakin have no idea of what can be done with the dark side...)
the most important reason why I chose this idea concern the logical progression of the movie : see Palpatine new face is now expected...it's no more a surprised. It gives sense to the next sequence, we do not think : "wtf !! why his face change abruptly !?"
it makes more sense (IMO) than the perfect symetrical scars + yellow eyes + new evil voice...caused by the force lightning
Thank you TV's Frink for this comment.
A last video to finish explaining my editing approach on this sequence (and to show that I am well aware of its shortcomings)
rpvee said:
I suggest the following: Anakin kills Dooku. The shot of him looking confused. "He was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that-" (Palpatine cuts him off) "You did well, Anakin. He was too dangerous to be kept alive." "It's not the Jedi way." "It is only natural..." and so on.
I did not answer to this because I did not want to "hurt" you.
Since you make edit yourself...try do to this
it's just impossible : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSqA1m3XGFY
for me you don't really know the difficulty of editing. You are good pointing bad things...and saying " it's rough..." but you suggest impossible things.
try to make this sequence with Anakin and Palpatine as you suggest it...and post it here
good luck !
Before suggesting things or criticize, take time to realise the real difficulty of editing.
rpvee said:
It's just that having Cutter pretty much say "Well look at this, the original film has bad cuts too, so mine are ok" is really annoying... it shouldn't be ok. But whatever, I've stated my points.
isn't this bad faith ?
read all the post please !
I have never say that my cut are good because there is bad cuts in the original too !!! you focus on little things in my edit, and I show you there is also this kind of mystake in the original movie...is this really hard to understand ?
you just taking what you want in my words...not really try to understand the meaning.
I already know all the problems in this little sequence, I don't need you for that. You just want to prove that my cut is really bad...but you don't really want to see the good aspect of it.
you said : I noticed other errors I should've picked up on, such as Palpatine's face transforming for no reason.
everything is explain in the video...changeling etc of course I can't shoot new sequences with Ian macdiarmid ! I really don't understand your approach poiting this kind of things...do you really think you are the only one to see that ?
you are not a fair person...I take much time to explain everything about my approach, my choice etc and you come back again and again to the same points : " it's too rough (...) having Cutter pretty much say "Well look at this, the original film has bad cuts too, so mine are ok" is really annoying"
what's the problem with you ?
I have already replied to this in the post 99 :
rpvee said:
But just saying "Well the original has worse cuts!" does not make your cuts better.
I only say that to show you that it's not dramatical, it doesn't destroy the film...on the contrary, the stuff I removed ruin the movie
vaderios said
The way that makes the changes and for me it works and they dont look like rough cuts of nonsense with no sound fades and missing frames then i think he succeeded ;)
thanks for your support
Erikstormtrooper said:
The "use my power, I beg you" force voice is a little confusing. Why would he use that when he is in person? Plus, it's confusing whether he's really saying it, since we don't see his face. All the other times Obi Wan uses a force voice, he's already dead.
You could use this voice in the ruminations scene, when he's sitting in the Jedi council.
In my edit, he said only : "use my knowledge"
The idea of telepathy is just a "bonus", this is not necessary. In my vision, Palpatine used telepathy here to influence Anakin at this very critical moment, to show him another part of his power...Just imagine the way you can feel if you hear someone directly in your head : "use my knowledge ! "
I find this very sutbil.
The voice is really peacefull, we have the feeling that Palpatine knows exactly what he does, he is not scared...
Vader speaks to Luke and Luke to leia through the force (ESB)...As I said in my video, even if Obi-wan is dead and Vader/Luke/leia are related, it's always through the force that they can speak
I really love the sequence when Vader speaks to luke in his mind : "my son...come with me" - it's just excellent, very intense and dramatic. This little sequence is much more intense than 2 hours of Attack of the clones !
so it's just a little glance...
Things go to fast to use the voice in the rumination scene.
Bingowings said:
What Bob is doing with the lighting is an ideal way to reveal this transformation.
where can I see that ?
bingowings said
It might also help if Palpatine put his hood up as soon as possible and if those eyes were toned down a bit (the whole effect looks like a bad impersonation of the Emperor rather than a younger version of the character from Return Of The Jedi).
lol...it is not catastrophic, but it's also messed.
bingowings said
Further to my other comments it might help any depiction of this scene to re-dub Palpatine's lines after the change to make them less over the top.
I never thought about that, but it's interesting. I will see what I can do.
what do you think about Sidious grunts ?
vaderios said:
Oh this is nice.
Will the final edit have surprises and edits that you didnt post here?
Cant wait :D
-Angel
There are many little change and cut all around the movie, new musics...
a little but very important cut :
- where is Padme... ? is she safe ?
- it seems that in your anger, you killed her
Vader no more saying : "is she alright ?...... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !! "
I will post new videos about this. it's good to have comments, it can help improve things further.
TV's Frink said
I like fanedits that try to be seamless, as if the fanedit is the actual original. As such, I found the cuts a little distracting.
Thanks for your comment !
What can we do when one of the most important sequence of a movie is absolutly, totally messed ?
all the ambiguity is here : favored the flow or the sense ? (when it's impossible to do both)
TV's Frink said
I've seen plenty of edits that are able to remove the crap while maintaining a reasonably smooth flow. So I know it is possible.
As I already said, my edit, generally, has a good flow. Regarding the Mace/Sidious sequence, I agree, some things go little too fast...but take time to get used to it. If it was so lame that you and rpve said, I am sure that nobody could appreciate it.
This and the beginning (Grievous ship) are not representative sequences regarding the flow of all my edit.
Theses sequences are completely missed and can only be treated with a radical cut (IMO)
it's impossible for me to remove the crap in the mace/sidious sequence and keep a perfect flow...just because there is too much crap.
TV's Frink said
Also should mention there are a few places where you've replaced dialogue but it is obvious from mouth motion that it has been replaced.
Yes, but not important for me, it's just very short sequences (I think the only moment in this edit), and it give much more sense - the essential for me is the sense of the movie, the idea.
TV's Frink said
Having said that, this is your edit and you should strive to make it as radical as you see fit. There's nothing wrong with doing things as rough as you want in order to get your version of the movie, it just won't be some people's cup of tea (mine included).
You're perfectly right. First, I create this edit for my own pleasure...Now I share it because I am sure that some, who shares the same vision as me, will love it as I do.. I don't want to convice anyone, it's not for sale ! ^^
TV's Frink said
Good luck with the edit. I do hope you are able to produce something you truly enjoy.
Thank you very much ! this edit is almost finished (95%) and I must admit that it saves my life.
as you say, the essential is to enjoy....so enjoy ! ; )
I have explained my approach in post 16 :
It's a choice : let bad stuff or have a cut more "dynamic" with few minor problems. In my case, it's just impossible : the bad stuff when I see it, make me instantly "leave the movie" (specialy stupid joke, too bad cgi and "teen love")
I do not pretend make a perfectly cut (as you say, it's impossible without new material). I just want to enjoy the movie from the beginning to the end without having to slam my head on the wall every minutes...and this implies, in my case, to make some sacrifices.
it's not that I don't have any sense of timing...or didn't see things when they go little too fast. It's very simple : I don't want bad stuff in my cut.
Lucas traumatized me with episode 2 and 3...now my level of tolerance is ZERO.
However my movie have a reasonably smooth flow...only little and short sequences go little quick, that's all.
There is really a big work on content and form. I do not only cut the bad stuff and then "stick" what it remains. I work a long time to find the best things, the best dialogues, better music...and the most important : how to save Palpatine from this stupidity.
just cleaning the voices (even if it's the center track) so I can add a new music, recreate the sound design (ambiances, winds etc) was really a long work...it's not so easy.
so when I read : "you only cut the bad stuff...it's to rough..."
I am little surprised...I don't want to convince those who don't like it...but don't only focus on little things...there is here much more to preserve than the perfect flow : Palpatine dignity. And in this sequence it's impossible to do that with a perfect flow.
rpve said :
Maybe because I edit things myself, I'm seeing things more than others here,
do you really think I do not notice where are the little problems in my cut ? I perfectly see them...but I tried everything, impossible to do better. If you want to help me, suggest me a new cut, but keep exactly the same stuff (it's impossible for me to bear what I have removed) .
I worked so many hours on this little sequence that pointing what's wrong is useless : I already know.
rpve, you have a very sharp eye, I like that...but it's not because you noticed the problems on my edit that it mean you can do better. The only way to improve the flow on this sequence is to add stuff that I can't bear. It's a vicious cercle
Brash_striker said it perfectly (thanks to him) : His is a vast improvement even though it may not (and can't possibly, with the footage available) be perfect, and any improvements you might recommend would probably compromise his philosophy by adding horrible stuff back in
rpvee said:
But just saying "Well the original has worse cuts!" does not make your cuts better.
I only say that to show you that it's not dramatical, it doesn't destroy the film...on the contrary, the stuff I removed ruin the movie
rpve, here is another private video I made for you :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhQoCq2b1o
I really spend a lot of time to find the good compromise on every sequences.
I think the good question should not be : " isn't this a bit too fast? Rough?"
but " is it better than the original cut ?"
remain focused only on the perfection of the flow is a luxury we can not afford here (specialy on this hard sequence) because the low quality of the original stuff does not allow flexibility.
cutnshut said:
I think you've done the best that anyone could ask for with this scene - i've said before i don't mind quick cuts - a lot of movies have them. But in this case you have to work with limited footage and there really isnt that much greatness to begin with - so yeah, make it as painless as possible
Thank you for your comment
you have defined here, in a clear and short way, exactly what I want to express : MAKE IT AS PAINLESS AS POSSIBLE
it is now my new slogan !
Vaderios, very interesting video (excepted the music), I love this kind of interview.
I am a professional composer and sometime I have to handle also the sound design...so I'm passionate about everything related to sound
rpvee said:
It's hard to feel the "sense" of a movie when there are a lot of rough cuts.
You are talking like all of "my movie" is roughly cut...There is sometimes this problem...but only in critical sequences...it doesn't affect the "sense" of the film.
This is not because at few moments, some little things go quick that the film becomes incomprehensible.
I very well understood what you are talking about but I am trying to explain that there are more shocking rough cut than mine in the original movie itself.
Look again at this example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky60ZJsjjTI
Mace turn twice on himself (180 %) ! it's really really rough...
I work frame by frame, nothing is left randomly...you said earlier : "you really, I guess, just need to work on your sense of timing. A lot of the cuts are just really, really rough" but it's irrevelant given that I work with a very very limited stuff.
Give me a camera, let me shoot this sequence from the beginning with the actors and then we can talk about my sense of timing.
I will show you someday my edit on the Lord of the rings trilogy...and you will see that there is absolutly not this kind of problems...simply because there are less things to change...much more good stuff. The edit is easier.
Unfortunately this is not possible here, ROTS need a radical cut. I can easly let things go slower but it meant keeping ugly things.
I just find you a little unfair regarding the limited stuff I am working with. You judge me on things that can't be improved (except a few fancy cuts, but here too, I'm not blind, I know why I am doing this..and it's not really important, It doesn't ruin the movie)
In front of two defects, I always choose the slightest. This is a good example. What is the worse : a little fast kick or the ridiculous Palpatine CGI face ? and see him be hit like in very bad kung-fu movie and crawling on the floor like a dog (not a gay ;) ) ? OMG...we are talking about the Emperor ! seeing him in a ridiculous way is much more worst than my "quick kick".
You focus : " it's too rough !" ok ok...but look what it was ! you should always judge my cuts compared to the original...and you will see that there is always a good reason.
I'm not blind, I know perfectly every frame of this movie and and if certain things could be extended, I will do it with pleasure.
Some of my cuts are quick, not because I like this or because I don't have sens of timing...but only because there is no other way. That why in my videos I have create the "cutting process part", to show how much things I decided to remove are ridiculous.
in this battle : ugly/stupid VS shorter - I will always choose "shorter".
So it's a little useless to say then : "it's too short, it's rough "...I already know that...but keep in mind that the purpose here is not to propose a perfect cut but to avoid the disaster.
because what Lucas did is really a disaster...
First of all, as far as we know, Sidious was never "gay". Don't use that word that way, and also words like "bitch" and what-not. If you want your edit to be taken seriously, drop the high school vocabulary.
I am french, not really good in english..so I do what I can...I am sure you have understand what I mean by : gay and bitch. I think it fits perfectly what Lucas have done with this.
But your solution seems to be to simply cut out all of the bad parts and then moves scenes around between the cuts to try to make them flow
Absolutely not, it's not done so simply. First of all I think about the sense of all, if I'm going to need stuff from other sequences etc
But, for example, Mace tells Anakin to stay, and then literally in the next shot he's gone and taking off. I know you said that it's an editing technique (your exact words being "in a cut, all the sequences do not systematically occur in real time"), but this kind of editing only works in certain ways.
You're right, but isn't this a minor sequence ? a detail ? I can easly cut before Mace takeoff...I just let this because I like Anakin "stance" at this moment.
For example, Mace kicking Palpatine. In one cut, Mace goes from one position to suddenly being able to kick Palpatine, and then a WAY to quick cut over to Anakin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky60ZJsjjTI
We simply don't have the same priority : I am trying to give more soul to a sequence, to the entire movie, and you focus only on details. When I am talking about the sense... you are talking about my "rough cut" (and speaking of this, I do not agree !)
bobgarcia74 said:
This edit will be a great version for people who've seen and know the movies. But I feel that anyone watching this version without having first watched the original would be like. "Ok, wait a second, well the hell is going on? I cant keep up.
Thanks bob for your comment !
it's interesting that you mention that because I showed two years ago my edit to my brother (who has never seen the original version). He has understood everything without great difficulty. We must admit that it's not a very complex movie. Anyway the priority of my edit is to respect the spirit, the atmosphere of Star Wars.
As I already said I prefer something short than something crazy, ugly or stupid...something a little too short doesn't affect me...something ugly or stupid spoil my fun.
bobgarcia74 said
Palaptine and Maces saber fight is 13 seconds long on screen. And The time from when Anakin walks into the room to him cutting off Maces hand runs around 24 seconds. That is really fast
Yes, the duel Palpatine/Mace is really short...You have done something really interesting in your edit with light on/off...it hides bad CGI etc but I really can't let three Jedi masters die like this...
But concerning Anakin's fall, I think the precipitation here is a good thing. There was already a dead time in the Council Chamber...Anakin knows now what he want. In the original cut Windu take too much time, too much momentum..and the infamous : "he is the traitor, no he is the traitor, I have the power to save...you must choose etc"
Precipitation is a perfect condition for mistake..no time to think. My cut supports this feeling. it Insist on the fact that Anakin is now in a whirlpool, he control no more his destiny.
brash_stryker said:
during the Mace/Palps duel. Almost like a montage.
yes this is the part that suffers most..but I work frame by frame, taking care of their position...
I will make tomorow a video to show that there is many jumpy cut in the original version and more shocking...but we do not pay attention because it's precisely the original cut !
Thank you brash, glad u like the sound edit ! (Vaderios, I will work hard on the lightsabers sounds ; ) )
rpvee said:
Too many quick cuts (...) too much isn't seen (...)the execution is just not as good as it should be.
Too much isn't seen ? but it's so ugly ! what can we do ?
There are "jumpy cut" in my part 3 but I think there is a good flow here.
Maybe You are really too much used with the original cut. You did not take the time to "digest" the new rhythm. Of course everything go faster, I cut a lot of things, so inevitably you feel a lack...but I think you just focus on it, and not on the essential :
Sidious is no more a gay, the Jedi are no more stupid bitches, no more stupids dialogues and too long hesitations (etc...) and there is now intensity when Sidious unleashed the dark side.
I'm really interested to know what you think about the original sequence. if you find my work "weak", what words do you use to qualify the work of Lucas and his team on this ?
There are so few good things in the original sequence that it was really a challenge. For you, my execution is weak...no problem, but what do you suggest ? keeping exactly the same ideas and the same content I selected, show me the way to a "strong execution" !
I worked so long on this sequence, I tried so many things... I can say, without pretension, that it will be hard to do a better cut. It's not a perfect cut of course...but it respects Star Wars, it do not destroy everything...
Thanks all for your comments ! I'm really glad you like it. Vaderios I need this sequence with Windu alone, awesome ! where can I find this ?
Jacobss said :
I'm sure the bad moments of prequel trilogy had nothing to do with actors. I think it is all fault of Lucas. The actors never knew what they have to act. And no matter what they did, Lucas was for sure always satisfied with their performace.
it's quite true
Here we are !
The most important and difficult part to edit :
Part 7A Mace confronts Palpatine / Sidious revealed - cutting process only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vz6IClXgfY
Part 7B Mace confronts Palpatine / Sidious revealed
brash_stryker said:
Have you seen the latest video from my edit? That's exactly what I've done, though it's not subtitled yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecFqCjOuncI
very interesting perspective ! and an angry droid...it's really Star Wars ! it works very well
droid removal (in the wedding) is also good idea