TestingOutTheTest

While we’re on the topic of Rey’s arc and TLJ, I think the resolution of that arc - Rey taking Kylo’s word to “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. It’s the only way you’ll become what you were meant to be,” letting go of her toxic parents entirely, beginning to fixiate towards the Resistance, and becoming what she was meant to be… a better person, who no longer hinges her life and worth around toxic, drunken parents who neglected her, who threw her away like garbage - should feel stronger and more climactic for the parent story arc (I didn’t really feel too much weight in my previous viewings of the movie) as it is supposed to be the climax of the parent story arc.

Having just read this comment, I feel like it’d be appropriate to introduce/reintroduce, in such a pivotal scene, Rey believing for her whole life she is worthless like you did with your TROS novel edit after the hangar scene.

Also I feel like “I saw the rest” is redundant since he already says “I know who your parents are” in the elevator.

@adywan Can I have PMs to your edits?

To revisit my thoughts on hinting at Palpatine’s return in TFA or TLJ. I’m leaning in the middle, whether it does (as if the Death Star II were slapped at the end of ESB despite it being hopeful) or whether it’s otherwise.

However, I do want to see your guys’ thoughts as to whether it would ruin TLJ’s theme of hope or otherwise. As in, if it does, could you explain why? Or if it doesn’t, could you explain why?

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

That is not true. Palpatine died. He was brought back by his Sith acolytes through something he evidently had planned. An idea stolen from legends. Palpatine even said he died to confirm that Anakin succeeded in eliminating the Sith and balancing the force. Anakin even tells Rey that she should balance the force as he did.

I disagree here. Palpatine simply transferred his consciousness into a clone, he wasn’t resurrected by Sith acolytes. His original body blew up twice and had to have been disintegrated completely.

I think TROS makes it clear that Palpatine was dead. The Empire was over. If he had transferred his conciousness to a clone at that time he could have kept up the Empire and and the victory we see at the end of the SE ROTJ would not have happened. Palpatine was dead. The Sith had to figure out how to clone a force sensitive body to put Palpatine back into. And i don’t think it worked too well. How his spirit was preserved we don’t know. But we can imagine a Sith force ghost. But Palpatine died and was dead for a while.

I agree that Palps WAS dead, but…

If he had transferred his conciousness to a clone at that time he could have kept up the Empire and and the victory we see at the end of the SE ROTJ would not have happened. Palpatine was dead.

His clone on Exegol was literally a rotting corpse. He’s unable to move and has to be attached to a machine to stay alive. His flesh was decaying. The other Snoke clones were lifeless. He also had to oversee the construction of his Final Order, which (I believe) was a backup plan (the fact that they look identical to Imperial Star Destroyers means they at least started construction during the days of the Empire).

Also the Empire lost because the Death Star II was destroyed, even without Palps’ death.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Never heard of that, but it looks like he had Kylo order the holocams, which doesn’t fall in line with his character as much as it does with Hux.

That guy rewrote TFA as well

Anakin’s such a great chosen one he didn’t even kill Palpatine and end his reign, and his son turned out to be a failure by any standard, didn’t restore the Jedi. Even his daughter failed to restore the Republic.

That is not true. Palpatine died. He was brought back by his Sith acolytes through something he evidently had planned. An idea stolen from legends. Palpatine even said he died to confirm that Anakin succeeded in eliminating the Sith and balancing the force. Anakin even tells Rey that she should balance the force as he did.

I disagree here. Palpatine simply transferred his consciousness into a clone, he wasn’t resurrected by Sith acolytes. His original body blew up twice and had to have been disintegrated completely.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I actually leaned into the idea that Kylo didn’t commit many atrocities except for killing Han. For example, I used the canon idea that a Force storm Kylo couldn’t control destroyed the temple, and he didn’t actually kill anybody there intentionally. It makes it all the more tragic, and makes it more relatable to want Ben survive after his redemption (which is what happens). What I like about Kylo is that he’s trying to be somebody he isn’t, so when he finally becomes Ben again it’s more rewarding.

Vader commited genocide and yet he’s redeemable. I also feel like Ben’s conflicted soul only came around at some point before TFA.

Also Kylo and his Knights slaughtered people in a rainy environment, and he himself killed Tekka.

Off-topic now, but I’m really enjoying adding holocam droids to the battle of Crait. Essentially, at the beginning of it I’m having Hux insist that the whole thing is to be recorded for the galaxy to witness. This then leads into a custom Canto Bight scene I’m doing with Lando where the gamblers are betting on the outcome of the fight (because they see it as a game), which disgusts him. The holocam droids also explain why the First Order lets Finn and Rose escape to the base, because Hux wants the galaxy to see their weakness. And, finally, it allows the entire galaxy to see the badass Luke that inspires them.

So like /u/onex7805’s The Last Jedi REDONE series?

Stardust1138 said:

Sifo-Dyas was a secret Sith and Palpatine’s apprentice according to George.

Source?

(/r/saltierthancrait link, be warned…)

Make it more clear Luke wasn’t seeing the future when probing Ben, more that he’s already committed a decent (but not big enough) amount of atrocities and had to have been with Snoke behind his back.

Can I have a link to this and ESB: Revisited?

I think he’s referring to how exactly Palpatine’s role as the villain would bring the saga full circle — the heroes fighting the literal mastermind behind everything that’s happened throughout the saga. Plus, Palpatine himself represents the undying hatred of the past that affects the current generation, that we’re having the same struggles as those of old.

I don’t get why people believe Palpatine’s return had no set up. It’s a MASSIVE galaxy, so of course it isn’t surprising that he’s still out there. Same with Snoke in TFA.

you’re welcome to add your two cents where it’s more relevant, instead of imposing your opinion onto the rest of the board

I mean, other people aside from myself would start the discussion in the first place, even if I didn’t exist.

You are approaching the internet like a giant hivemind with no regard for how members here actually feel

It’s called a “general consensus”.

That I initially agreed with those specific Redditors? (It was on Krayt)

SparkySywer said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Has anyone else made that argument on the board except you?

I kinda changed my mind on that?

You’re missing his point, nobody else really seems to be making this point, or at least it’s a very rare take. You’re arguing against a fictional position. I’m not sure anyone else has made that argument except you, although I’m not gonna say you’re the only one because that’s a quick and easy way to get owned.

I’ve seen that be used a couple of times on Reddit.

Has anyone else made that argument on the board except you?

I kinda changed my mind on that?

If Test isn’t intending to get a rise out of anyone, why make sarcastic jabs anyway?

Sometimes I get rather angry or stern to try and make my point.

What am I doing that’s wrong? I’m not intentionally getting the rise out of everyone, I’m offering suggestions, critiques and corrections to what they believe.

In the film, Ben attacks Luke because he knew Luke was gonna stop him from doing all sorts of bad things as Kylo Ren, having already turned to the dark side. Luke even saw that Snoke already corrupted him and believed he was irredeemable like Palpatine (at least until Rey debunks that).

The tragedy can be that Luke failed to cleanse the darkness from Ben.

How about… Ben made/modified the saber behind Luke’s back and Luke didn’t notice in the final days of which Ben made/modified it and wouldn’t have trained with it? Or Snoke gave him the crossguard one in secret and he uses his regular saber to try and hide his alliance with Snoke during the training?

Ben’s saber should ALREADY be red the moment he catches Luke (but only in the flashback of what really happened). It makes it less of, “He’s gonna kill me even though I did nothing wrong!”, and more of, “He was gonna stop being from being evil or whatever!” (I feel like that was obvious from the actual film, but… yeah).

Where can I find the dewbacks only version?

sade1212 said:

I think Rey can still want revenge against Palpatine without her parents needing to be noble. Firstly, they were still her parents, and despite the level of abuse/neglect implied by literally selling her into slavery, she’d still probably be opposed to them being murdered, especially since she doesn’t remember them well enough to harbour any personal grudge. Secondly, he’s Palpatine: he’s responsible for a huge amount of death, for turning Ben and starting the First Order (and thus getting Han, Luke and Leia killed), and is actively trying to kill the rest of her friends. Difficult guy to not want some kind of revenge on.

Why? The point of TLJ is that she doesn’t care about her parents anymore and now has to stick with the Resistance for validation, because she wasted all those years for nothing caring about awful, drunken parents who neglected her. She’d want them to suffer for neglecting her and believing she was nothing.

Having her go back to caring about them regresses that.

Here we go again…

Also

There is nothing in the OT that gives any goal behind the end of the Empire. That is the end game of the OT - the destruction of the Empire.

The reason behind overthrowing the Empire is because they’re corrupt and tyrannical. Of course they’d want a ruling faction that isn’t corrupt or tyrannical.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

DZ-330 said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I remember having this same conversation a while back. The problem with making her parents bad people is that the Palpy/Rey scene at the end relies on the whole “she will take her revenge!” spiel. He’s trying to get her to hate him. But if Palpatine is responsible for the killing of her parents, and they were bad people, then really Rey should be thanking Palps for neutralizing those scum bags. Not exactly the greatest strategy. And don’t even get me started on the fact that it makes no sense that they wouldn’t reveal her location to Ochi if they were bad.

Don’t get me wrong, it would have been better for them to be bad, but unfortunately the movie we have been given relies on them being good. Doing the opposite would involve removing way too much content and make the Rey/Palpatine scene kinda confusing.

But I do think the revenge she could be taking would be because she was alone for all those years because of Palpatine.

Well then somebody could easily make the argument that she probably had a better quality of life being alone than being with drunken parents who don’t give two shits about her (abuse).

I ran into this issue when writing my novelization and ultimately decided I had to go with good parents (but improved) because otherwise you’d have to change a lot. For example, Ochi would have to never encounter her parents and die while on the hunt for them. This then makes Rey unfamiliar with the dagger and his ship. Then that leaves the dyad fight in Kylo’s quarters devoid of content since there are no visions and not a whole lot to say except that she’s a Palpatine, which is supposed to happen in the hangar scene. Plus there would need to be a good enough reason for Rey to want to kill Palps with the dark side so the essence transfer works.

Ah, what a mess.

Palpatine would be the reason Rey believes she’s worthless. Even after realizing that her actual heritage doesn’t define her value, if it weren’t for Palpatine then Rey wouldn’t believe she’s nothing.