TestingOutTheTest

Oh.

CaptainFaraday said:

Let’s talk about Palpatine’s plan (and how Kylo interacts with it), so I’ve got it completely clear long before we get up to Palpatine explaining it.

In this version:

• Rey is no longer Palpatine’s granddaughter, and
• Palpatine no longer cloned Snoke from a vat.

I also want him to know about the Force Dyad from the start, and have it be his ultimate plan all along. I find it accidentally comical otherwise in the original - he’s spent decades meticulously planning everything, then right before the climax of the movie he’s like “oh, wait, this other thing randomly popped up, that’s much better.”

The other issue I have is that Palpatine tells Kylo he wants Rey dead. That doesn’t make sense in this version, or the original - in the original, he wanted Rey to become the new Sith Empress, or at least he wanted to take over her body with Spirit Transfer, which he can’t do if Kylo has killed her. My plan for that is, Palpatine makes it clear he wants Kylo to bring Rey before him and then kill her in front of him (which in this version, of course, is a lie).

So, unless I’m forgetting something:

• Palpatine dies on the Death Star II. He wakes up on Exegol, where the Sith Eternal cult start constructing the huge fleet of Star Destroyers. Palpatine waits in the shadows, watching events unfold, waiting for his time to strike. The First Order rises, Snoke comes to power, Rey and Kylo develop their Dyad connection, Snoke is killed, and the giant fleet is finished. What good timing!
• Palpatine wants to get Rey and Kylo in the same room with him, so he can drain their Force Dyad and bring himself back to Ultimate Power™.
• To do this, he lies to Kylo, telling him he’ll give him the giant fleet and make him the new Emperor, as long as Kylo brings Rey to Exegol and kills her in front of him.
• Kylo, meanwhile, plans to turn Rey to the Dark Side, then bring her before Palpatine where they’ll kill him together, becoming Emperor and Empress without Palpatine.
• Kylo doesn’t know Palpatine’s true plan, and he thinks Palpatine doesn’t know about the Force Dyad.

That way, when Palpatine waffles on to Rey when she arrives at Exegol, he’s actually just stalling time until Kylo gets there as well. It also means Kylo thinks he has a secret advantage over Palpatine - the Dyad - when he actually doesn’t, which I think is more interesting.

It also means Rey is trying to get to Exegol under her own steam, thinking Kylo is trying to stop her getting to Exegol, when in fact Kylo wants her to get to Exegol - but with him, oh his own terms. I think this also makes the story more interesting - they want the same thing, but they want it in incompatible ways, which highlight their desires and motivations.

Palpatine changed his mind about using Rey for the Sith ritual because her parents abandoned her as if she was worthless because of her lineage/hid her away (yeah, you can still make Rey’s parents “bad” people, which would preserve Rey’s TLJ arc of learning to stop caring about her parents because they thought she was worthless) and he didn’t know she was on Jakku. Then Palpatine decides to go after Ben, the descendant of the Skywalkers. He demanded Ben kill Rey since he no longer has any use for her. When Ben redeems himself, this fucked up Palpatine’s plans to possess a healthy, non-clone body, so he goes after his own granddaughter again.

I feel like we should use a different establishing shot instead of the one from TLJ, people will notice it’s obviously from TLJ.

Shaddy Zaphod said:

While Ach-To is in the conversation, can we talk about “It was fear that kept me here”? I know I’m just parroting Nerrel’s video, but ever since he pointed it out I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it. Luke was kept there by shame, and a genuine belief that the Jedi are a bad thing. It’s a hard thing to reconcile with TROS’s conversation, but I think “it was shame that kept me here” and “what are you most ashamed of” (in a Rey Palpatine cut, of course) would make a lot more sense. Not that I have a good way to implement that or anything.

No. He feared he’ll only make things worse by making a difference to the galaxy, he caused Ben Solo’s fall and if he creates more Jedi more of 'em will turn to the dark side and more children taken from their families (referring to the aforementioned Jedi) would be killed and more destruction would be brought (i.e. the entire Clone Wars).

ThisIsCreation said:

When we get the “I’m the spy scene” from Hux.

If I could suggest an edit:

After we hear the shots and Poe and finn turn to look, instead of cutting to the stormtroopers and Hux then saying the line. Have the shots, the characters turn and then cut straight to Hux saying “we dont have much time”.

The characters look at the ground anyway, and it removes the dreadful exchange and it let’s us know everything we need to know and the humour ruins it. Its much better in my opinion.

Remember, Hux helped form Starkiller base, and having his reveal be a goofy one, it removes any form of seriousness.

I disagree. How else are Poe and Finn supposed to know that Hux is the spy? They’ll be confused as to why Hux just shot his own men.

Removed talk about Leia (and possibly Luke, depending on one’s interpretation of the scene) having known about Rey being a Palpatine. In this version, Luke essentially tells Rey, “So what if you’re a Palpatine?” It also seems to make a great deal more sense to assume they did not know this during the events of TFA and TLJ, with Luke learning this postmortem.

I disagree with this. The point of the thing with Leia is for Luke to show to Rey that just because she’s a Palpatine doesn’t mean others inherently hate her for her lineage; it’s part of her arc of overcoming her toxic core belief that she is worthless, she’s developed that core belief during her time on Jakku after she was abandoned.

What is the point of adding in Palpatine’s line, “Your coming together will be your undoing…”?

Is there any way insert in some sort of implication or dialogue to back up the idea of Snoke’s mind bridge being the reason Rey and Kylo become a dyad, so it’d be more inferable by viewers (even those who don’t read edit descriptions)? Like, for example, “You remember when Snoke bridged our minds? Well, because of that we became a dyad,” something along the lines?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Sorry, should have been more clear. You said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

whereas in the actual films the dyad was formed because Rey and Kylo Ren were the respective grandchildren of two separate Force-sensitives.

which is not the canon answer anywhere, mostly because it makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, maybe you can interpret that from the movie, but it isn’t suggested at all.

Why else would Kylo point that out, more specifically right before he reveals he and Rey are part of a dyad?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Hal 9000 said:

Why remove that line? The fact would remain anyway, and I don’t see what there’d be to gain.

You guys are proposing that the dyad forms because of Snoke bridging their minds, whereas in the actual films the dyad was formed because Rey and Kylo Ren were the respective grandchildren of two separate Force-sensitives. If you have both, it would muddle things.

Bruh what? Lmao. Where is this even remotely implied?

Sorry if I sound rude, just genuinely curious.

I thought that was what I inferred from the thread?

@RogueLeader Because I’m clearing up misconceptions regarding TRoS and its so-called “effects” on TFA & TLJ and you guys seem to act as if you can’t infer things from TRoS and the prequels?

Hal 9000 said:

Why remove that line? The fact would remain anyway, and I don’t see what there’d be to gain.

You guys are proposing that the dyad forms because of Snoke bridging their minds, whereas in the actual films the dyad was formed because Rey and Kylo Ren were the respective grandchildren of two separate Force-sensitives. If you have both, it would muddle things.

Since we’re debating on the dyad and it forming after Snoke bridging Rey and Kylo’s minds, I suggest we remove the explanation we already have for how the dyad formed since it would muddle things: “My mother was the daughter of Vader, your father was the son of Palpatine.”

Jar Jar Bricks said:

sherlockpotter said:

Reading over the last few posts, and mulling it over some more, I think what would have made the most sense is if the Rey/Kylo connection was very explicitly established in TFA. Something like, Rey senses Kylo when he arrives on Jakku, and she sets off intentionally looking for BB-8. Then Snoke plays on that innate connection in TLJ, and it all comes to a head in TROS, where their connection becomes so powerful that they can teleport lightsabers to each other like it’s nothing.

The problem is, J.J. hadn’t thought of the Dyad in TFA (or at least, he didn’t make it clear). So Rian comes in and artificially creates a connection between the two of them (a connection which they even question, like, “Wtf what’s happening?”) as a tool for character building, not a grandiose plot point. Then J.J. comes back and says, “Nah, that was a ‘Dyad’ all along! DYAD!!” I can’t see a way of making it work without A) Doing massive recuts to both TFA and TLJ, and B) Finding new scenes for TFA that never would have been filmed.

If I can get it to work, I think “becoming a Dyad” is the most elegant solution, something that’s vague enough to appeal to both sides of the aisle. I was playing with it more on my lunch break…I should be able to post a second attempt later this evening.

I agree with literally everything here. Nothing much else to add here.

On the topic of your B) point, I already mentioned the “It is you” Kylo line when Rey grabs the lightsaber. I feel that would possibly hint at such a connection in TFA, but it probably isn’t enough. Like you said, it would probably have to be entire scenes in order to be clear enough.

I stated earlier that Kylo was saying it in the sense that Rey was the one who awakened in the Force.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

Also thinking, Palps doesn’t always knows or senses everything. Heck, in ROTJ Vader sensed Luke was looking for him and Palps responded he didn’t feel that. It could have been a lie, but let’s take it to face value. He is not all knowing or sensing. He can do a lot, but not everything.

Ultimately it does rely on how much information Snoke knows that is “transmitted” to Palpatine. In my mind at least, something that Snoke created with the force would be MUCH more likely to be shared with Palpatine due to the amount of strain and effort it creates. Something that he kinda knows about and is simply relying on? Maybe not so much.

There was no indication that Snoke’s information can be automatically transferred from him to Palps; I keep having to say this, Snoke isn’t Palps’ VR headset, he’s still his own person but takes orders from him.

If you had read my post more carefully you would see that I agree with you. We don’t know how much information Snoke knows that is given to him, but the amount of it would be nice to have been stated because it gives us an idea of what is okay for him to be saying.

In this case, even if Palpatine knew nothing about Snoke’s thoughts, I’m 99% sure he would be able to detect him pulling off such an intense force feat such as creating their bond. If Snoke only knows about the bond, and doesn’t create it, then in order for Palpatine to know about it he would have to know his internal thoughts, which is much more unlikely. That is why imo it is a good change, but it does come with its own other minor problems.

I mean, I don’t think Leia, Finn or Rey sensed that Luke was a projection on Crait (I’m not including Kylo Ren, he was too blinded by his own arrogance to realize Luke was a projection), which was also an intense Force feat.

repeated comment

Master Lawdog said:

I know that this is for The Last Jedi, but wouldn’t it make sense to leave the line about “bridging their minds” intact? Even when it begins, both Ben and Rey are confused as to how they are being connected. Unlike The Rise of Skywalker, where it seems as if Ben is the one making the connections, in The Last Jedi, it happens at pure random.

Again, we don’t know how this power works, so we can infer that it just works that way.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

Also thinking, Palps doesn’t always knows or senses everything. Heck, in ROTJ Vader sensed Luke was looking for him and Palps responded he didn’t feel that. It could have been a lie, but let’s take it to face value. He is not all knowing or sensing. He can do a lot, but not everything.

Ultimately it does rely on how much information Snoke knows that is “transmitted” to Palpatine. In my mind at least, something that Snoke created with the force would be MUCH more likely to be shared with Palpatine due to the amount of strain and effort it creates. Something that he kinda knows about and is simply relying on? Maybe not so much.

There was no indication that Snoke’s information can be automatically transferred from him to Palps; I keep having to say this, Snoke isn’t Palps’ VR headset, he’s still his own person but takes orders from him.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Your changes suggest he is aware they are a dyad… only to discover they are a SUPER dyad. Not sure I like that tbh.

Still stand by this ^

Also RogueLeader, I think I’d probably just shut off the movie if I found out that the mind link (emphasis on mind) created by Snoke survived his death and literally allowed them to transfer a freaking lightsaber across that distance. Imo the dyad, even if it isn’t explained properly, is absolutely necessary.

Water literally gets onto Kylo Ren’s hand and Rey experiences visions of his future upon touching his hand.

IMO that is actually a hint towards there being something more going on than a mind link (the dyad). Sure, it probably wasn’t originally written with that intention, but that was one of the things I disliked about TLJ until TROS. You’re telling me that Luke projecting himself killed him, but then Snoke is so powerful that he can allow two people to see/touch each other from across the galaxy AND transport physical matter all without dying? And when he does die, “his” connection persists? Give me a break. When Luke dies the dice he transported fade away, the same should happen to their connection if Snoke solely created it.

We don’t know how this power works, all we know is that Snoke connected them, so we can INFER that it works that way.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Your changes suggest he is aware they are a dyad… only to discover they are a SUPER dyad. Not sure I like that tbh.

Still stand by this ^

Also RogueLeader, I think I’d probably just shut off the movie if I found out that the mind link (emphasis on mind) created by Snoke survived his death and literally allowed them to transfer a freaking lightsaber across that distance. Imo the dyad, even if it isn’t explained properly, is absolutely necessary.

Water literally gets onto Kylo Ren’s hand and Rey experiences visions of his future upon touching his hand.

sherlockpotter said:

But, like, why would Snoke bother to take credit for bridging their minds then? What does he get out of it? Is he just trying to brag about how powerful his is (when we see him do loads of other powerful things in this very scene anyway)? Does it prevent them from finding out about the Dyad (until Kylo just “knows” in the next film anyway, so whoop dee doo, that was worth it.)?

Plus, I don’t like the idea that both Snoke’s plan and Palpy’s plan only were able to happen because they could exploit this random-ass Dyad connection. That feels lazy. And convenient. (Two terms used to describe any quality story.) At least it Snoke does it, it gives him some agency in the story.

Plot wise, we have an established fact - Snoke bridged their minds. It’s yet another thing that TROS tries to retcon.

Yep. Retconning their communications to be just a feature of the dyad undermines that reveal; in TLJ, Rey learns the truth, that her entire encounter with Kylo Ren was a trap set up, she was so unprepared she got her ass kicked by Snoke and Kylo had to help her.

And thematically, it serves to make Rey less important as a character. She’s not powerful because of her strength of character, or because of the choices she makes, or because of how she responds to a situation. She’s powerful because she’s a mythical Dyad! Look how special she is, arbitrarily! It could’ve happened to anyone, but it makes Rey special. Why didn’t Poe become a Dyad when Kylo probed his mind? Because he’s not born special. Hey kids, do you want to be important? You’ve gotta be born as a Dyad then. You weren’t? That sucks.

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one. How compelling. Factor that in with undoing yet another Last Jedi ret-con, and that’s the value of making them “become” a Dyad.

Rey being special or otherwise was never the point; one of the most common misconceptions I’ve seen regarding the ST. The point was that Rey needed to overcome her toxic core belief that she is inherently worthless which she’s developed ever since she was abandoned (which she does in TRoS), and the point of the reveal in TLJ wasn’t whether she was nobody or not, the point was that she needed to stop caring about her parents because they were toxic people who thought she was worthless. Her being a Palpatine drives her toxic core belief home, when she stabs Kylo Ren she becomes convinced that, because of her lineage, she’s inherently a bad person who will do no good, she’s destined to become evil the way her grandfather was and no one will give her the value she desperately wants, which Luke refutes by reminding her of how Leia trained her regardless of her bloodline.

EDIT: Removed mention of ST fans.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Pretty sure the only reason JJ wrote it that way (“we’re a dyad in the force”) is because of a couple lines from TFA.

1. Kylo asking his officer “What girl?”, which gives the impression that he is aware of some mysterious girl out there that he keeps having visions/dreams of.

It can be easily interpreted as Kylo Ren being angry that someone is helping get the map away from the First Order and he wants to find her to make sure she doesn’t do anything about this.

2. Kylo saying “It is you.” in early drafts of film TFA after Rey gets Anakin’s lightsaber. The line still appears in the novelization and is voiced by Adam Driver in the lego game. The line implies once again that he has had visions of her or knows there is some sort of connection between them.

Kylo Ren is saying, “It is you,” in the sense that she was the one who had awakened in the Force.

There shouldn’t be a deepfake of Palpatine’s son onto one of the clones in the tube (that would shoehorn in the retcon from the book that Rey’s father was a clone which undermines Palps’ goals from the actual film); the point is that Palpatine decided to have s%# and create offspring because he knew he could possess the body of a Force-sensitive without said body suffering in the way the clone body he is possessing already is, it’s why he was after Rey and then Ben Solo, neither Rey nor Ben were clones.

Hal 9000 said:

Good discussion, revisiting an idea from earlier. But I will leave the scene alone altogether. Anyone who desires to tinker with this should have an east time doing so.

One last observation is that the spice runner thing pays off Finn’s “how do you know how to do that?” line as Poe hot wires a speeder. It’s true we removed the other two links in the chain (due to the lightspeed skipping scene) but that one remains.

Is it possible to remove Finn’s line in question, if one were to remove the spice-running backstory?

CaptainFaraday said:

I’m inclined to agree with JarJarBricks here. While the movie might support that interpretation, the novel is pretty explicit that Kylo is still adamantly set on the past dying, and that he intends to usurp Palpatine after the Emperor has outlived his usefulness to him, creating a new rule with Rey.

As for the Eye recognising Kylo as the heir of Vader, I personally figure that’s only relevant as an answer to the question “Why would the Eye let him take the Wayfinder,” and I’m fine with leaving that somewhat ambiguous. The same way the Force is simply the will of the narrative in Star Wars, I like having the Eye as a mystical being who moves the plot along its path like similar characters did in old myths. That’s just me, though.

Yeah, I forgot that your edit is regarding just the novelization and not the actual film; novelizations tend to use the surface of the plot of films and, as far as I’m concerned(?), tend to avoid using inferences for specific details from the actual film. For example, I believe the TRoS novel ignores the whole “Rey has low self-esteem” thing, whereas the arc is inferable from the actual film itself.