TestingOutTheTest

Jar Jar Bricks said:

This reminds me of something. Leia always having known she was a Palpatine specifically would never really work imo, even if they had the perfect footage/lines for it. It just comes out of nowhere and it isn’t explained how exactly she came to that conclusion - especially since Leia was never even in the presence of the Emperor.

That’s because Leia kept it secret, so Rey wouldn’t know she wasn’t a Palpatine.

This reminds me of something. Leia always having known she was a Palpatine specifically would never really work imo, even if they had the perfect footage/lines for it. It just comes out of nowhere and it isn’t explained how exactly she came to that conclusion - especially since Leia was never even in the presence of the Emperor.

The Force.

I think what would have gone over better would be if Leia sensed a “raw strength” in her lineage, kinda like Luke did on Ahch-To. That way, she still realizes she is taking a risk by training her, but does it anyway because of her spirit and heart.

That would undermine Rey’s arc and the point of the scene, that your value is determined by your heart and not your heritage. Key word, heritage. This is why Rey stops caring about herself being Palpatine’s granddaughter after Ahch-To.

Burbin said:

TLJ freed this new story and allowed it to become it’s own (much like Kylo in the film), it revealed that there was no set place for these characters to fit in (much like Rey in the film), no set story ‘destined’ to play out. It opened the door for the final chapter to be something new, different and original. TRoS closed that door shut, shoving everything back into the original mold: Rey goes on to be trained as a Jedi, there is some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo turns to the light, and together they defeat Snoke Palpatine, which marks the end of the First and Final Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. The Empire is defeated by taking down the ‘big bad’ on the throne again.

I feel like you’re implying Kylo Ren was set up to be irredeemable, except we literally end with him broken, kneeling on the floor in the base.

I also feel like you’ve missed the point of Rey’s arc in TLJ, it isn’t about finding her place in all this or being important in general, it’s about letting go of her parents altogether, coming to terms that, to them, she is completely worthless — reinforcing her arc of how she eventually overcomes her irrational, toxic core belief that she is worthless and refuses her lie that she is only worth something if others think she is. She only wanted to find out as to what her importance (in a good way) is so she would use it to justify as to why her parents left her on Jakku, feeding her lie that her parents truly did love her, feeling loved, to push away her feelings of self-worthlessness that hold her back and leech off her happiness.

I do feel TRoS undermined Rey’s arc by having her parents be noble people who loved her, but the idea of her being Palpatine’s granddaughter does not; when she stabs Kylo Ren, she becomes convinced that, because of a combination of her heritage and her Force-sensitivity, she is meant to be consumed by the dark side in the way her grandfather was, so she exiles herself, believing that the Resistance is no longer going to give her any validation once she turns to the dark side — Luke proves this wrong by reminding her of Leia training her, regardless of her heritage, showing that the value of others is determined by their heart, not their heritage, and convincing her to face Palpatine and determine the fate of the galaxy, showing that it is not her heritage that determines her future, but it is she, herself, who determines it.

Brewzter said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

sherlockpotter said:

I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

Palpatine needed to be brought back. By bringing him back this ties the entire Skywalker saga together and gives IX a sense of true finality; he also needed to be related to Rey, to reinforce her toxic core belief that she is worthless. It also pays off RotS, in which he was set up to have a power to keep himself alive in a way Plagueis couldn’t.

Regarding the “tying the Skywalker saga together” thing, Abrams said this:

…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.

I completely agree that Palpatine is one of TROS’s biggest strengths. Not only do I think it was necessary for the saga to make sense as a whole and to actually feel like a saga, but I think Palpatine was done exceptionally well in the film… For awhile I’ve felt fairly neutral about Rey’s Palpatine lineage, I really liked Rey Nobody in TLJ, etc. but I think I’m at the point where I actually like it, mostly for all of the different symbolism and messages it brings, especially with Ben’s final act being to revive Rey and then her taking on the Skywalker name- what better defeat could Palpatine have had than not only being destroyed by his own kin (backed by the spirits of his eternal enemies) but then the final living member of the three-generation bloodline born to combat him giving his life to revive his granddaughter, who takes on the Skywalker name to honor, preserve, and carry on their legacy? Love it.

Regarding “Rey nobody”, I feel this is one of the biggest misconceptions of TLJ, that her parents were nobody in the sense that she did not come from some important bloodline — Rey said they were nobody in the sense that they were not anyone important and therefore had no real, important reason to abandon her, and she is upset because it turns out, to them, she is completely worthless. Rey wanted to be loved by her parents, to push away her feelings created by her toxic core belief of self-worthlessness that she’s had for the past fifteen years — she’s always lied to herself that her parents abandoned for some important reason which would show that they truly did love her.

On top of that, she was focusing on more specifically her parents, not anyone else in her bloodline such as ancestors, her parents were the ones who abandoned her and, again, she wanted to feel as though they truly loved her, to cope with her irrational, toxic core belief.

Even then, just because her parents, the ones who birthed her, were nobody does not mean her other ancestors (i.e. paternal grandfather) were nobody.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I don’t doubt it was a last second decision. But that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a warranted one.

I think both of you are forgetting that at its core Star Wars is a fairy tale. It’s for 12 year olds. Nev, your argument for how it should have been about the systems that subvert democracy would definitely work in a political drama or some movie that is for a much older audience. It definitely works as an underlying message in the prequels or TLJ, but I don’t believe it should be the overall message of the saga.

I much prefer the mythical good guys v. bad guys side of things, and the struggles that the good people go through to resist the evil side.

That’s not an excuse for it to suffer from bad writing, and certainly does not make it be immune from criticism. Not that I agree with Nev.

RogueLeader said:

I think you guys are just trying to rationalize a lazy storytelling decision.

If they wanted to bring him back, maybe they could have set it up better, but it clearly was a decision they didn’t make until the last movie.

You guys talk about how it ties everything in, and good for the poetry and rhyming, I suppose. But I think bringing him back actually hurt the development of the new characters. It gave them less time and agency to come into their own. By the end of it, the new characters are still just overshadow by the legacy characters. I mean, good for you guys to see the silver lining, and maybe there could’ve been a good way to bring him back, but this wasn’t it imo.

I’m glad Palpatine wasn’t set up in TLJ. By setting him up in TLJ, it would’ve undermined the hope that the First Order will be defeated since it’s all for nothing since Palpatine’s just going to return and make things worse. He needed to come out of nowhere in TRoS.

Also, how does it hurt that development, exactly?

sherlockpotter said:

I think the biggest failing of TROS was bringing back Palpatine. Kylo was set up in TLJ to be the ultimate villain, and then he was just sidelined in favor of “rotting grandpa GLaDOS.”

I don’t think it’s wrong for Kylo to be redeemed, so I disagree with Dual of the Fates; but I also think he has to more than just redeem himself - he has to fail before he can be saved. TROS should have been the culmination of a really interesting negative character arc; and instead, he just spends the entire movie chasing after Rey. Then his mom dies, and he just…snaps out of it, I guess?

If I were writing the script, it would have focused on Kylo trying to be the Big, Bad, Supreme Leader, but failing at it. The galaxy, inspired by Luke, is revolting everywhere he looks, and the First Order is spread way too thin. The First Order Generals and Admirals are all starting to question his abilities to lead; Hux is planning a coup, and is waiting for the right time to strike. Kylo is stressing out. He was already somewhat unstable (as seen in TFA), but now he’s just going crazy. Any time someone questions his orders, he cuts them down. And the more he loses control, the more the First Order splinters, the stronger the Resistance grows. He’s the maker of his own downfall.

Because he was wrong to pursue this path. He was wrong to join the First Order. He was wrong to seek this power, power that he’s not equipped to wield. And, try as he might to ignore that fact, over the course of the film, he has to finally come to terms with it.

When he finally turns back to the light, he does it in order to save his mother (building off of that moment in TLJ). And then, he sacrifices himself not just to save one person, but to undo all of the damage that he’s done to the galaxy, to atone for his sins. His final act is to destroy what remains of the First Order at the cost of his own life. Leia survives, and goes on to rebuild the Republic (correctly, this time); and Ben is able to visit her as a Ghost.

I really don’t have any major issues with VII or VIII overall (even if they could be improved upon); but IX was the only film in the bunch to truly fail for me.

Palpatine needed to be brought back. By bringing him back this ties the entire Skywalker saga together and gives IX a sense of true finality; he also needed to be related to Rey, to reinforce her toxic core belief that she is worthless. It also pays off RotS, in which he was set up to have a power to keep himself alive in a way Plagueis couldn’t.

Regarding the “tying the Skywalker saga together” thing, Abrams said this:

…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

RogueLeader said:

Wanted to spur a little bit of discussion.

I feel like the ways both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy end feels sort of inevitable. Perhaps time has added to this feeling, but Anakin falling to the dark side, and then him being redeemed by his son, feel like these are the only ways these stories could’ve gone.

When it comes to the story of the sequel trilogy and the way they end, I feel like those are harder to pin down. I know George said the sequels were about the “grandchildren” and the torch being passed to them, per se, but I can understand the struggle the writers had when trying to figure this out.

I guess I am curious to hear if people feel like the ending of TROS felt like the right or inevitable ending to them. And if not, what do you think that ending should have been? Could you potentially edit TROS to get closer to that ending you imagined?

Might as well announce it to the public here. I’m actually writing a version of the novelization that does just this - change the ending of the story in a significant way while also providing my interpretation of events in the story. Thanks to Capatain Faraday for the inspiration.

Anyways, to answer your question directly, I believe that the writers really missed the mark by having Ben Solo die in the end. It would have been much more compelling for Ben’s character arc in the sequels to be a foil (opposite) of Anakin’s in the prequels - beginning in darkness, rising above it, and living on after his transformation to restore light to the galaxy with a certain Palpatine by his side, if you know what I mean.

It would have allowed Anakin to have an indirect but crucial role in the storyline, and we all know this saga is supposed to be about him. His legacy being something Kylo revered in TFA was a good decision. Unfortunate that it was sidelined afterwards. Of course, in this novelization I am reconciling both his Vader worship and past killing together as the same aspiration.

I feel having Ben survive misses the point. The whole point of the sequel trilogy is that this is about the legacy of the Skywalkers and how it will live on beyond the extinction of their bloodline; it is for this reason Lucasfilm decided against Rey being a blood Skywalker (note, this isn’t really a fact, but it’s an inference).

Jar Jar Bricks said:

"Destroying the mask doesn’t contradict TLJ. Destroying the mask was out of frustration of being a knock off and failure to live up to Vader, not necessarily to let the past die. When Kylo said let the past die, he meant the Jedi, the Sith, the Empire of Old, etc. and make the future his way, a new order as per his vision.

He resurrected the mask because he felt confident that he could live up to Vader in turning Rey dark and killing Palpatine. He openly told Palpatine twice that he’d kill him after being subservient to Snoke, and actually succeeded in turning Rey to the dark side before Leia turned him back."

Yup. This is pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while now. He was trying to finish what Vader started by letting the past die; get rid of everything except for a new order ruled entirely by himself and those he cares for.

Really? I always thought Kylo Ren was referring to ending the Jedi when he said “finish what [Vader] started”.

The Canto Bight storyline already does have consequence. Finn learns to care more about the actual cause itself after learning from Rose about the galaxy’s suffering and how the First Order treats others aside from their own men, and even then DJ turns them in to the First Order and leaks the Resistance’s plan and Holdo sacrifices herself because of this.

Hal 9000 said:

Thinking about that dumbass Sith fleet.

Seems like the best way to smooth things over would’ve been to portray the FO as crippled, desperate, and scrappy in TLJ. (There could’ve been a dangerous power vacuum.) Then they stood to benefit from an actual fleet in TROS.

The FO was already comically overpowered in TLJ, so it makes little sense to suggest their resources would be increased by a factor of ten thousand. This is compounded by the idea that random monk people on a hidden wasteland built all this (tens of thousands of ships identical to Imperial design) by hand over 30 years out of crap smuggled in from their pockets.

In our retelling, it’s a stashed Imperial fleet, which really can’t be all that large. But there’s just about no way to remove the idea that the FO is beholden to it, or drastically reduce their power in TLJ.

The First Order was already crippled in TLJ after Holdo destroyed much of its fleet and ripped the Supremacy in half, and even then it’s inferable in TRoS that the First Order isn’t doing fine at all, Kylo Ren even wants to hog Palpatine’s Sith fleet for himself to make the First Order a true Empire (“With what I’ve seen on Exegol, the First Order is about to become a true Empire…”).

Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

@Hal 9000 The scavenger clothing is part of who Rey is, why would we want to take that away?

Isn’t this the entire lifestyle Rey wanted to run away from and associated with her being worthless? 😕

The “scavenger clothing” thing was something I found on the cantina subreddit in defense of Rey wearing that style of clothing in TRoS.

@Hal 9000 The scavenger clothing is part of who Rey is, why would we want to take that away?

NeverarGreat said:

So the final scene will be Rey walking off into the sunset, her clothes in a neat pile on the ground?

Duracell would be proud.

So she’d be n&#%?

So I am apparently seeing you guys saying that what he wanted to say to Rey wasn’t clear enough. I disagree, Finn says to Poe, “It’s something only Rey and the general would understand,” and both Rey and Leia are Force-users.

I was asking if you’d add back him wanting to tell Rey of his Force-sensitivity; at least a large part of his arc involves him moving on from her altogether, so he stops trying to tell her. The point of this in the actual film is to reinforce his attachment to Rey, and when he does move on from her he stops trying to tell her of his Force-sensitivity, showing how he’s moved on and let go of Rey.

The lack of a payoff of Finn wanting to tell Rey of his Force-sensitivity is the point.

I feel like Hal should re-include the references of Finn wanting to tell Rey something.

I’ve seen people criticizing how Finn wanting to tell Rey something was never resolved, but that was literally the point. Finn’s arc in TRoS was that he needed to let go of his attachment to Rey and move on from her altogether. The moment he lets go of Rey is when he and Jannah find her dueling Kylo Ren and she pushes him away with the Force, and after that he not only lets go of his attachment to Rey but also puts an end to his notion that he reveal his Force-sensitivity to her.

Now, yes, he does sense her death and give her a hug alongside Poe once she returns to Ajan Kloss, but his attachment isn’t as over-the-top as it was earlier in the film. If Finn had told Rey he was Force-sensitive at the end, then it would have undermined his entire arc.

(Note that I’ve posted this before, but just wanted to see if Hal can see this, this time)

Where can I find that?

Apparently this is what Jedha looks like after that specific Death Star scene in canon. For referencing purposes 😉

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

dgraham414 said:

We could make the TIE on Pasana the same TIE from TLJ? (of course non of us are miracle workers)

I’m surprised JJ didn’t do that to Johnsons’s TIE in this movie since those two enjoy destroying each other’s creations in these movies. Lol.

Yeah and he also repairs anything that he didn’t like Rian destroying (Kylo’s mask cough cough).

C’mon, man, it was a continuation of Kylo Ren learning from his failure in TLJ. After the throne room scene he stops letting the past die because it’s a horrible idea, look what happened between him and Rey, he even just becomes Supreme Leader of the First Order instead of creating a new Order altogether.

Movies Remastered said:

1:04 just taking out all the Acki Acki kids and the puppet show. Sad times! https://youtu.be/iTNchgZjufE

I disagree with removing the children scene. The point of the scene with the Aki Aki children is to establish the stakes for the movie, to drive home our connection with the galaxy (especially in the context of this film alone) that has been built up throughout the saga and show what the heroes are really fighting for.

How about, “I destroyed Kylo’s ship”?

We’re talking about the movies alone, and even then Grogu’s use of Force healing is different, he just removes the venom from the dude and he passes out.

Is it possible to make post-“dyad rejuvenation” Palpatine have the same pale eyes as before he sucked out Rey and Ben’s life force instead of having your typical Sith eyes? Just throwing an idea.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

A line plays in the background that is contradictory to the original trilogy. It suggests that the galaxy always knew about Palpatine’s Force abilities.

Remember when Rey reminded Luke of his redemption of Vader and his immediate response after that “he became a legend” (the inference being that the galaxy learned of it post-OT)? Think of it in that way.

DZ-330 said:

Not sure if this is something to be discussed in this thread, but has anyone found a good way to remove Rey healing the worm? I think it works better for the story if the only “force healing” is a result of the Dyad between Rey and Ben.

For the sake of the whole saga, it just opens up WAY too many questions. Maybe it can be adjusted for for the worm creature to be scared of her darkness or something along those lines.

It’s already inferable that only dyads can use Force healing. Think about it, the dyad is treated as super special, we’ve only seen Rey and Ben, both part of the dyad, use Force healing, and there was no indication that any other Jedi or Sith was part of a dyad.