TestingOutTheTest

That seems to be more like Luke and Vader and not Ben and Snoke.

Master Lawdog said:

What about young Ben Solo and Snoke? She saw them down the hallway in the novelization.

Passage?

Just a point, Anakin didn’t want to keep himself alive, he wanted to keep Padmé alive.

I think it is less that Palpatine’s return was meant to come out of nowhere, and more so that it just conveniently worked out that way, at best.

You guys and I feel as though TLJ is the natural progression to the story, that it being about hope feels like it was meant to be that way.

Tantive3+1 said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The Jedi voices and the Nubian battleships in the climax of TRoS.

Where in the climax did you see Nubian battleships?

The whole point of TLJ is, by the end of the movie, that hope has been reignited, that the First Order will be destroyed, Luke even inspires the galaxy with his return, having come to terms with his legacy.

If Palpatine had been set up in TLJ, it would take that way, that hope would all be meaningless since we would know that Palpatine is just going to come back and ruin everything.

In other words, his return is meant to come out of nowhere in TRoS.

Even then, his return was already set up in the opera scene in RotS, Anakin asks him as to whether it is possible to “learn this power” (referring to Plagueis wanting to keep himself alive), and Palpatine responds, “Not from a Jedi,” intentionally grinning at us, the audience.

RogueLeader said:

Honestly, when they filmed all of this, I don’t think it was originally meant to be Mustafar.

But you can come up with some Watsonian answer for it regardless. Maybe the cultists put it in the forest for some religious purpose.

Apparently it was always meant to be Mustafar. (The opening section of this script looks like it was somehow actually ripped from the real one.)

Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Except Darth Vader redeemed himself in RotJ.

The “lava” shot should be color-corrected to match with the TIE shot and the rest of the sequence.

I’ll never understand why people think the Vader’s castle shot feels out of place.

1. It’s obviously a reversed Rogue One clip.

2. The way the camera moves.

3. The way the TIE fighters move in comparison to the camera.

Another thing, I don’t think Palpatine confessing to his lies is really in-character for him. Seriously, he lied to Anakin in RotS about a way to save Padmé.

I feel it does cheapen Rey’s arc.

The point is that her being Palps’ granddaughter is to set up the lowest point for her at the end of Act II, when she exiles herself under the belief that her being Palps’ granddaughter means she is meant to turn to the dark side, until Luke has that pep talk with her. Undoing that is like revealing Owen and Beru were alive all along which would ruin Luke’s arc.

Nothing about earning the saber.

Then you’re removing the thing that reinforces her core belief of self-worthlessness.

Hal 9000 said:

Just to have them both together to compare…

Two shot version: https://vimeo.com/506231329

Three shot version:
https://vimeo.com/529620485

I don’t know why, but I feel the way the castle shot is framed in comparison to the lava shot is very jarring. I understand that it’s a reversed Rogue One shot, but that’s part of the reason why.

sherlockpotter said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Palpatine did want Rey to come to Exegol, but her parents abandoned her and now he doesn’t know where she is, so he turns to Ben Solo because he does know where he is, and turns him to the dark side — he wants the blood descendant of the Skywalkers to perform the Sith ritual so he would possess his body. Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because at this point he no longer has any use for her and Kylo is already this far into the dark side, it is too late to possess Rey at this point.

Um…what? None of that is established in the movie. And why not just possess Kylo if “he wants the blood descendant of the Skywalkers to perform the Sith ritual”?

It does not need to be explicitly spelled out to you. There is a concept called “inference” — something you already apply to TFA and TLJ.

That’s not how Sith essence transfer works. Palpatine demands Rey to perform the ritual by killing him out of hatred — by doing so, this would allow his spirit to possess Rey. He wanted to do the same thing with Kylo Ren, this is literally why he turns him to the dark side in the first place — he hoped for Kylo Ren to kill his failure of a clone body, allowing his spirit to possess Kylo Ren.

Hux does not betray the First Order altogether, he sent in the information so Kylo Ren would lose. Unless you’re referring to, “I don’t care if you guys win,” Hux is just saying that so Finn and Poe wouldn’t kill him.

Oh shoot, I didn’t realize we could just arbitrarily decide when the script is lying to us or not. Cool beans.

Again, INFERENCE. Hux clearly wants to rule the First Order and dispose of Kylo Ren from his status as Supreme Leader. If Hux did not say, “I don’t care if you guys win,” or at least said the opposite, then Finn and Poe would’ve killed him.

Why did Palps announce his return rather than using the element of surprise?

Palpatine has been long-established throughout the entire saga as someone who strikes fear into his enemies. Seriously, he created the Death Star to strike fear into the galaxy to prevent them from rebelling.

Why would Hux betray everything he believes in just because he dislikes a coworker?

Hux does not betray the First Order altogether, he sent in the information so Kylo Ren would lose. Unless you’re referring to, “I don’t care if you guys win,” Hux is just saying that so Finn and Poe wouldn’t kill him.

Why does Palps tell Kylo explicitly to kill Rey, when his whole plan depended on Rey magically finding her way to Exegol un-killed?

Palpatine did want Rey to come to Exegol, but her parents abandoned her and now he doesn’t know where she is, so he turns to Ben Solo because he does know where he is, and turns him to the dark side — he wants the blood descendant of the Skywalkers to perform the Sith ritual so he would possess his body. Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because at this point he no longer has any use for her and Kylo is already this far into the dark side, it is too late to possess Rey at this point.

When Kylo Ren redeems himself, this ruins Palpatine’s plan to have a healthy Force-sensitive person perform the ritual so he’d get out of the clone body he’s been suffering in for years — his line, “The Princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plans, but her foolish act will soon be in vain,” implies his plan was to possess Kylo Ren —, so he falls back to his original plan to have Rey perform the ritual.

EDIT: Removed swearing, as requested by JJB.

Lor San Tekka mentions “balance in the Force” in the very first scene of TFA.

The existence of the Jedi temple on Ahch-To in TLJ furthers the prequels’ idea of Jedi temples being a thing.

We get to see Mustafar in TRoS, we even see its gas giant in the first shot.

In TRoS, Palpatine repeats his line about the dark side from the opera scene from RotS.

The Jedi voices and the Nubian starfighters in the climax of TRoS.

I never understood as to why “the slight electrical crackle as Palpatine reveals his hands” was removed?

EddieDean said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

EddieDean said:

I think TestingOutTheTest might be JJ Abrams.

By this logic, I think anyone who defends TLJ is Rian Johnson. Not that I hate TLJ.

Do you not feel like the original, unedited version of TROS might be right for you?

There are some fan editing choices I agree with, but I feel the majority of criticisms are incorrect in the way many of you guys feel about TLJ’s criticisms.

EddieDean said:

I think TestingOutTheTest might be JJ Abrams.

By this logic, I think anyone who defends TLJ is Rian Johnson. Not that I hate TLJ.

Yeah, I may have gone a bit too far, but I just wanted to end this series of misinterpretations regarding Snoke in TFA.

Burbin said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Burbin said:

TLJ freed this new story and allowed it to become it’s own (much like Kylo in the film), it revealed that there was no set place for these characters to fit in (much like Rey in the film), no set story ‘destined’ to play out. It opened the door for the final chapter to be something new, different and original. TRoS closed that door shut, shoving everything back into the original mold: Rey goes on to be trained as a Jedi, there is some big revelation about her backstory, Kylo turns to the light, and together they defeat Snoke Palpatine, which marks the end of the First and Final Order, and the return of the Jedi and the New New Republic. The Empire is defeated by taking down the ‘big bad’ on the throne again.

I feel like you’re implying Kylo Ren was set up to be irredeemable, except we literally end with him broken, kneeling on the floor in the base.

My point was TLJ left things open ended, you only see that as set up for Ben being redeemed because that’s what happened in the end, but it could’ve gone any other way. Just think of this interaction between Luke and Leia:

“I came to face him, Leia. And I can’t save him.”
“I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone.”
“No one’s ever really gone.”

On one hand, this clearly reads as Kylo being past the point of redemption, as even Leia has given up on him, on the other, Luke only says he can’t save him, and comforts Leia by telling her no one’s ever really gone, though that leads into Han, so it could be read in a multitude of ways, that’s what made TLJ great.

If Kylo was past the point of redemption, then Luke wouldn’t have told Leia, “No one’s ever really gone.”

I wouldn’t be opposed to Kylo chosing to turn after losing everything and finally seeing the error of his choices, as Sherlock suggested, but the point of TLJ was that Kylo chose not to turn good even after the ‘big bad’ in the throne was dead, instead he chose to become the Ruler of the First Order, he chose to become the ‘big bad’ and sit on the throne himself. Things could go in any direction after this.

No. That reinforced Kylo’s desire to be evil, but even then he’s left broken. This is just like in TFA, he kills Han to clear away these goody-goody feelings but it doesn’t work, it makes him even more regretful. Just because he decided to rule the First Order doesn’t mean his goody-goody feelings are gone - in fact, TLJ showed him being conflicted at the end.

Leaving him unredeemed undermines the point of his arc.

Again, you only see it like this because that’s how it played out in the end, letting go of her parents and dealing with feelings worthlessness were key parts of her character arc, but so was finding her place in this story and wanting to be someone important.

Most importantly, she’s the protagonist, she works as a surrogate for the audience. And as such, in a metanarrative sense, she needed to let go of her parents because we needed to let go of her parents, she wanted to find her place in this story because we wanted to find her place in this story, we wanted her to be someone important, we wanted some big revelation, and so did she. Her parents being no one wasn’t just the hardest answer for Rey, it was the hardest answer for the audience. An audience who spent years specutaling where she came from, who she would be related to, where she would fit in. Like Kylo says, the fact that her parents were no one meant she had no [set] place in this story. She had no connection to anyone, she was free to choose whomever she wanted to be. Making her the grandaughter of Palpatine undoes this, now she is shoved back into the mold, the hero is the offspring of the villain, that was the easy and obvious answer, and what we’ve all seen before.

No.

People only speculated as to who she’s related to because they hoped it would explain her “powers” and wanted a payoff for what they thought was a set-up for “her parents being important”. TFA and the entire saga already explained her abilities, and TFA never set up her parents being important - in fact, Maz literally says they aren’t important.

sherlockpotter said:

Literal quote from Rey in TLJ: "The galaxy may need a legend. I need someone to show me my place in all of this." I really don’t see anything in the first two movies that implies she hates herself. She just seems overly dependent on people. She stays on Jakku because she wants her family to return, not because she thinks she’s unworthy of their love. She runs from Luke’s lightsaber because she doesn’t want that responsibility. She thinks Luke is the only hope for the galaxy; then, when he refuses, she says “[Ben] is our last hope.” She goes to Kylo because she thinks he’ll help them. (“This could be how we win.”) And honestly, what’s she done so far for herself? Known how to fly a ship? Anyone can do that. She was captured by the First Order. Fought off Kylo out of desperation, not by choice. Messed up big time by turning herself in to Snoke. And then she moved some rocks. Mary Sue, baby.

Amazing. Every word of what you’ve just said was wrong.

This is one of the biggest misconceptions I’ve seen regarding this core belief of self-worthlessness.

Self-confidence is not the same as self-worth. Rey has a lot of self-confidence; she not only believes she is a great fighter and pilot but is also confident in her abilities. She acknowledges that she can achieve things if she were to try hard enough, and believes she is capable of achieving things such as becoming a Jedi — this is because Rey has self-confidence.

But since Rey suffers from a core belief of self-worthlessness, she doesn’t feel worthy or deserving of doing this or that herself. The difference between low self-confidence and low self-worth is the difference between believing that you are able to be or do something and believing you are deserving or worthy of being or doing something yourself.

I never said Rey thinks she’s unworthy of others’ love, I said that she hates herself.

Rey wants to learn “her place” as a way of justifying as to why her parents left her. The point of TLJ is that she refuses to accept that her parents threw her away like garbage - she literally lashes out at Kylo, denying his taunt that “[her] parents threw [her] away like garbage.” She waited all those years on Jakku, having been lying to herself that there had to be some good reason as to why her parents left her, that she is of some importance, at least to them, showing that they truly loved her and cared for her, that she is worth something. It is for this reason she convinces BB-8 in TFA that her family would be back for her… someday.

However… Rey wants to find out what her “place” exactly is. For the past decade and a half of her life, she had been lying to herself that she would realize what her importance was upon finding out who her parents were, and that if she does find out what her importance was then she would feel loved, since in this hypothetical scenario her parents did abandon her for an important reason, showing how much they care for her.

The “place in all this,” itself, never really mattered to Rey. She was only going to use it as a way to justify her parents abandoning her… so she would belong to them, feeling loved. The reason she says to Luke, “I need someone to show me my place in all this,” is, well… you see, she wants to find her importance merely to use it as a way of justifying her parents abandoning her, feeding the lie that they truly cared about her and believed that she was worth something so that lie would never die off, so, for the rest of her life, she would feel loved — henceforth pushing away her feelings of self-worthlessness.

Below is evidence in TFA, TLJ & TRoS that Rey suffers from a core belief of self-worthlessness. These are common symptoms for those who suffer from this core belief. Not all of the following have to be checked off like a box; for example, some people diagnosed with a certain pandemic-causing virus only suffer from specific symptoms whereas some have no symptoms whatsoever.

Chronic psychological and emotional pain

During their initial encounter on Pasaana in TRoS, Kylo Ren describes Rey as having “such pain in [her].”

Feeling unworthy to be one’s ideal self

In TFA, Rey clearly shows that her ideal self is not a scavenger living amongst the sands of Jakku… but to be a Hero™; we see her wear a Rebel X-Wing helmet, we see her Rebel doll she had played with as a child, acting out the legendary stories she has heard about, and, most importantly, she looks up to the legendary heroes of the Jedi — namely, Luke Skywalker. However, Rey holds a definite feeling of unworthiness to be her ideal self. It is made clear, within her introduction alone, she dislikes being a scavenger, we are shown how she looks at the old woman cleaning her scraps, just as Rey is, with sadness and a hint of worry and fear.

We know Rey wants to be more than what she is, yet she does not… she wants to be something, her ideal self is a Jedi, a Hero™… but despite this, Rey runs away from the call to action, when the Skywalker lightsaber calls out to her; then, she tries to displace this role to other people and, once she has finally been forced to take the mantle of being a Jedi during the events of TLJ, she states her feelings of unworthiness of it (“I will earn your brother’s saber…”).

It isn’t until Rey stands against Palpatine and is motivated by the Jedi of the past when she destroys her core belief that she is worthless and, with it, no longer feels unworthy of becoming and being her ideal self, the thing that she wants to (and the galaxy needs her to) be, all the Jedi — hence Rey declaring, "I… am all the Jedi,” pulling the Skywalker saber (the symbol of not only a Jedi, but also her ideal self) to her and destroying Sidious. Rey declaring herself “all the Jedi” is demonstrating her defeat over her core belief that she is worthless — as she finally feels worthy and deserving of being her ideal self, “all the Jedi.”

Misplaced and inappropriate outbursts of anger

Rey consistently shows excessive and inappropriate aggression and anger throughout all three movies; one example is when she struck a defenceless and unarmed Luke Skywalker on the back of his head, another is when she stabbed an unarmed and defenseless Kylo Ren.

Psychological denial and self-repression

Rey willingly spends nearly a decade and a half as a scavenger, despite acknowledging (“I see your eyes. You already know the truth…” — Maz), deep down, that her family is never coming back. She also has been denying the truth that her parents threw her away like garbage, all the way until her confrontation with Kylo in TLJ.

Emotional immaturity, emotional displacement and misplaced, internalized anger

Is extremely emotionally fragile, breaking down into tears when confronted with any criticism or comments of her worth (“You’re nothing…” — Kylo Ren); such emotional fragility shows clear low self-esteem… a sign of this core belief that she is worthless.

Validation/approval seeking

Searches for approval, validation and affection from others, including BB-8, Han, Luke and Leia, possibly to make up for her own lack of self-value.

Attachment disorder

Forms attachments incredibly quickly, as an act of desperation and necessity.

Perceived inadequacy and feelings of being alone

Consistently mentions feeling alone, lost, confused or scared (Luke asks, “What are you most afraid of?”, she responds, “Myself…”; she also describes having never felt so alone to Kylo Ren).

General feelings of worthlessness, showing signs of feeling like she is not worthy of being or doing something great

She believes she isn’t worthy of wielding the Skywalker saber, then in TLJ, tries to get Luke and then Ben to be the Hero™ to help the Resistance gain the upper hand, never believing she is worthy of being said Hero™ — it is only at the last minute when she has no other option but to take the mantle.

She also has general feelings of emptiness and inferiority (shown in the films through Rey’s emotional responses and general emotional state). And the very fact that Rey relies on others for validation alone implies she has no self-love nor -value.

All of these are examples of Rey suffering from an irrational, toxic core belief of self-worthlessness. Having one or two of these “symptoms” would not be enough, but the fact that she shows pretty much most of the signs someone with the same background and core belief would have… supports this analysis, 100%.

After The Force Awakens came out, people kept wondering as to who Snoke was, and when The Last Jedi came out people complained that there was no backstory for Snoke.

Those of you who like this new trilogy kept responding that Palpatine was not given a backstory when the original trilogy first came out, supposed to be an attempt at exposing their supposed hypocrisy — detractors of the film kept saying this criticism, something along the lines of…

The existence of Supreme Leader Snoke contradicts the original saga, we are supposed to believe at this point that he had existed the entire time due to how old he appears to be and acts, and yet he chose not to interfere for no reason at all.

Whereas Palpatine was part of the original trilogy, it was a new universe, there were no movies or prequels for it to contradict, the existence of Palpatine does not contradict anything that was before A New Hope and therefore does not need a backstory in order to patch up these plot holes and explain why he makes perfect sense.

I do see where these guys are coming from, and I do agree with what they are saying about Palpatine… but I disagree regarding Snoke.

You see, J.J. Abrams already left out an explanation for who Snoke was and what his backstory is in The Force Awakens (albeit unintentionally), and this relies on inference.

For those unaware of what “inference” is, look at this scene from Infinity War. Here, Thanos is communicating with a younger Gamora after activating the Infinity Stones with that snap of his fingers. Given that Thanos had sacrificed Gamora for the Soul Stone earlier in the film, and that the location the both of them are residing in at that point is of the color orange, the same color of the Soul Stone, it is inferable that Thanos is literally inside of the Soul Stone.

Anyway, Snoke was an old Force-sensitive being who was in hiding during the original trilogy because, at that point, Palpatine was already ruling the galaxy and had not only a Sith apprentice but also an Empire to back him up. If Snoke went out to interfere during the original trilogy, Palpatine would have sent in his forces to annihilate Snoke, he is just one guy against the organization that is ruling the galaxy.

So, Snoke chose to go into hiding, waiting for Palpatine to die and for the Empire to collapse — only after Return of the Jedi, after Palpatine died and the Empire became crippled, did Snoke get the chance to interfere and fill in the power vacuum without anyone annihilating him.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking…

These are just mental gymnastics, there is nothing from which we can infer this backstory for Snoke.

This is incorrect, as we do get information from which we can infer his backstory in The Force Awakens.

In the original trilogy, it is established Palpatine is ruling the galaxy and has a Sith apprentice as well as an Empire to back him up.

Snoke clearly did not interfere during the original trilogy, and he clearly chose not to, say, assassinate Palpatine. This implies Palpatine is stronger than Snoke, and that Snoke is a coward who hid from the Galactic Empire for his safety, waiting for them to perish — that Snoke is just one dude (who has nothing) against a man who runs the organization that is ruling the galaxy and has who is essentially a hitman.

This is an inference.

I’ve seen people point out that Snoke is so powerful he can corrupt other Force-sensitives from faraway distances without meeting them in person whereas Palpatine repeatedly met Anakin in person and it took a decade until his corruption of Anakin was complete, which is incorrect. There was no indication he can do this from faraway distances, and even then it is clear Leia and Han had met him in person, how else do they know about them. Thus, it is inferable he groomed Ben in person without Leia and Han realizing.

I’ve also seen people point out that Snoke seemingly has infinite resources, enough to build the First Order — basically saying that he should have built some sort of army to, say, deal with the Galactic Empire during the original trilogy —, which is incorrect. Notice how there is a trench in Starkiller Base — this implies the First Order strip-mined the planets for its resources to build its ships, machinery and all that, hence the trench clearly visible from space.

And yeah, I do acknowledge that it was revealed in The Rise of Skywalker that Palpatine created Snoke himself, but this post is focusing more on specifically The Force Awakens, which was released four years before The Rise of Skywalker.

In other words, these people cannot seem to grasp the concept of inference, hence most of the criticisms for this trilogy.

RogueLeader said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yup, that’s why I feel it should either be removed or suggested that she knew something was up with her lineage but didn’t know exactly what.

I’d stick to the latter because otherwise the line, “Rey, never be afraid of who you are” doesn’t make much sense, because as far as she is aware Rey is nobody.

Or, you could throw the lineage junk out the window, and just have Leia know she is dealing with that inner darkness. Everybody’s got it. You don’t have to be the descendant of a bad guy to have the potential for evil.
Heck, maybe Leia could have also saw that vision of her on the throne. It doesn’t have to be because she’s a Palpatine.

Difference is that Rey suffers from an irrational, toxic core belief of self-worthlessness. She believes this lie that only others determine as to whether she is valuable or not, and due to her lack of self-value she relies on others’ validation to feel happy and push away her feelings of self-worthlessness. Her relation to Palps is there to reinforce this, the moment she stabs Kylo is when she becomes convinced that she is meant to be consumed by the dark side in the way her grandfather was, that her heritage is the reason she is falling to the dark side and once she does turn then the Resistance is no longer going to give her any validation.

Rey being Palps’ granddaughter and her exiling herself because of this is sort of like other movies in which the end of Act II is the low point for our protagonist(s).

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, Leia knowing Rey was … sighs… a Palpatine is honestly just dumb. It can be justified however way, but it’s lazy writing.

You would think that if Leia knew this, and that Palpatine was somehow still alive and Rey, his granddaughter, was going on a mission to stop him, that it would be better to find out from Leia, her master and someone she trusts, rather than Kylo or Palpatine, who would use that information to manipulate her.

Imagine Kylo being like,
Kylo: You… are a Palpatine.

Rey: I know.

Kylo: Wait, what?

Rey: Yeah. Leia sat me down and told me already. She really understood what I was going through, since her own father literally tortured her and destroyed her home planet. Despite that, your mother is one of the greatest people in the galaxy, and her heritage didn’t affect who she was and what she stood for at all. So, Palpatine being my grandfather has zero effect on me whatsoever. If her dad being Vader didn’t effect her, Palpatine being my grandfather doesn’t effect me. If anything, it solidifies my resolve to stop Palpatine, because that’s what Luke/Leia did already 30 years ago.

Kylo: Oh… well… I guess you know what you need to do then.

Rey: I do.

What? Leia still didn’t trust Vader, she and Han agreed that “there was too much Vader in [Ben]” and that was why she sent him to Luke.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

But… lineage and heritage are synonyms.

???

I never said they were not synonymous with each other?