TestingOutTheTest

Art is both subjective and objective, in a sense. In fact, they’re two different, respective sides to art. Kinda like how there are the light and dark sides of the Force in Star Wars.

The subjective side is about how it makes the viewer feel, emotionally. For example, whether a certain character annoys you or not, or whether the soundtrack of a film makes you really emotional… those are subjective.

I can understand what people mean when they say that art is objective. They’re referring to things that actually happen in the movie, such as Rey defeating Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker. Plot holes, inconsistencies, contrivances, and other related things are based on things that actually happen in the film, and thus are objective.

Obviously, whether plot holes and the other stuff I’ve listed aren’t “objectively bad”, they’re just things that exist in the movie. They’re “subjectively bad” in the sense that they tend to ruin people’s enjoyment of the movie, but it doesn’t change the fact that the movie is “objectively imperfect” or “objectively incoherent”.

I recommended removing his first scene with Connix, that’s what I was talking about.

Originally posted the following in the Ascendant thread.

I pretty much re-wrote the dialogue in the first scene with Kylo Ren and Palpatine. Some lines are changed to make them feel less Chris Terrio-y, some are changed as I feel they sound more right than in the original film, I’m not going to spoil the rest, but they do have footnotes.

I feel like some of the new dialogue can be accomplished through AI synthesizers or whatever. Anyway, here you go.

[The enormous Sith Citadel comes into view, shrouded in darkness and lightning. Ren leaves his ship, draws his lightsaber and activates it as he walks to the temple’s opening. Brief cut to black. Ren descends down a hexagonal platform into the catacombs of the planet, filled with worn statues of ancient Sith.]

PALPATINE: At last.

[The platform finally lands. Ren, seeming uneasy, makes his way towards the source of the whisper, as lightning illuminates in the darkness.]

PALPATINE: [continued] Snoke trained you well.

KYLO REN: I killed Snoke, and I’ll kill you.[1]

PALPATINE: My boy, Snoke was just your beginning. I have influenced everything [as Snoke] you have ever heard [as Vader] all your life. [breathes]

[Ren, unshaken, proceeds further into the citadel, his path lit by the blade. He eventually wanders into a room in the citadel filled with Sith acolytes, connecting wires to a vat filled with red liquid and several mangled, deteriorating bodies — all closely resembling Palpatine, unique from each other in their own mutilated ways, except for one that closely resembles Snoke, but with some of Palpatine’s facial features[2].]

PALPATINE: The First Order was your failure. I can give you so much more.[3]

KYLO REN: No. You’ll die instead.[4]

PALPATINE: I have died before.

[Ren turns around to seek the source of the voice.]

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be… [lightning illuminates his face] unnatural.

[It is clear that his body hasn’t exactly been so kind to Palpatine. His body is frail, his skin pale. He spreads his mangled fingers[5]. Ren thrusts his saber forwards, holding it mere inches away from the former Emperor’s throat.]

KYLO REN: What could you give me?

PALPATINE: Everything.

[Meanwhile, a massive fleet of Xyston-class Star Destroyers breaks through the icy ground and emerges into the tempestuous sky.]

PALPATINE: The might of the Sith Eternal[6] will soon be ready. It’ll be yours if you do as I ask — kill the girl, then strike me down in anger, and my spirit will pass on into you. We will be one. We will rule together as the new Emperor.[7]

[Kylo Ren lowers his saber.]

PALPATINE: But beware, she is not who you think she is.

KYLO REN: Who is she?

[Palpatine smiles sinisterly as thunder rumbles and the scene cuts to black.]

[1] Yes, the “and” is intentional. So it’d sound a bit more… right. Yeah.

[2] This would replace the original theatrical shot with Snoke clones and poppasketti’s current shot with Palpatine clones. It drives home the inference that Palpatine is shitty at making clones — let alone any lifeform — with his tech, whilst also having to sacrifice the explicit nature of the reveal that Palpatine manufactured Snoke himself, pushing said reveal into inference… that Snoke was made from another one of Palpatine’s shitty, failed clones.

[3] One idea the film establishes is that the First Order hasn’t exactly doing so well in the year after The Last Jedi. It is reinforced by the First Order seeming smaller than in the previous two films, and Kylo Ren wanting to take Palpatine’s fleet for himself so the First Order would, as he, himself, puts it, “become a new Empire.” This change reinforces that, and I feel it helps separate the First Order from Palpatine and his fleet and makes it more of its own thing.

[4] I changed it to that because, well… basically, I’m like: “How would Palpatine dying first give Kylo Ren the ‘more’, exactly?”

[5] Yes, the shot of his hands is moved here, to immediately drive the point home that his clone body is rotting and decaying. And I feel that, as a side effect, that it’d get MisAnthro Pony to shut up about Palpatine lifting the fleet.

[6] In canon, that is the title of Palpatine’s Sith cult. However, here, it is used to refer to the fleet as a whole, replacing the title “Final Order”, as I feel Palpatine would want the Sith to be eternal and rule for eternity, you get the picture. Hopefully, other lines that reference this name can be AI-changed into “Sith Eternal”.

[7] This accomplishes a similar goal to in the actual Ascendant edit — setting up the stakes for later. I do like the idea in the actual edit, but I feel it muddies Palpatine’s plans and the inference that he has been planning to possess Kylo Ren after he kills Rey and, thus, destroys his “conflicted soul”. So, I made the inference from the theatrical cut explicit. Yes, the parallel to The Last Jedi was intentional.

I pretty much re-wrote the dialogue in the first scene with Kylo Ren and Palpatine. Some lines are changed to make them feel less Chris Terrio-y, some are changed as I feel they sound more right than in the original film, I’m not going to spoil the rest, but they do have footnotes.

I feel like some of the new dialogue can be accomplished through AI synthesizers or whatever. Anyway, here you go.

[The enormous Sith Citadel comes into view, shrouded in darkness and lightning. Ren leaves his ship, draws his lightsaber and activates it as he walks to the temple’s opening. Brief cut to black. Ren descends down a hexagonal platform into the catacombs of the planet, filled with worn statues of ancient Sith.]

PALPATINE: At last.

[The platform finally lands. Ren, seeming uneasy, makes his way towards the source of the whisper, as lightning illuminates in the darkness.]

PALPATINE: [continued] Snoke trained you well.

KYLO REN: I killed Snoke. I’ll kill you next.

PALPATINE: My boy, Snoke was just your beginning. I have always been the whispers [as Snoke] you have ever heard [as Vader] all your life. [breathes]

[Ren, unshaken, proceeds further into the citadel, his path lit by the blade. He eventually wanders into a room in the citadel filled with Sith acolytes, connecting wires to a vat filled with red liquid and several mangled, deteriorating bodies — all closely resembling Palpatine, unique from each other in their own mutilated ways, reminiscent of Alien: Resurrection, except for one that closely resembles Snoke, but with some of Palpatine’s facial features[1].]

PALPATINE: The First Order was your own failure. I can give you so much more.[2]

KYLO REN: You’ll die instead.[3]

PALPATINE: I have died before.

[Ren turns around to seek the source of the voice.]

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be… [lightning illuminates his face] unnatural.

[It is clear that his body hasn’t exactly been so kind to Palpatine. His body is frail, his skin pale. His eyes empty but glowing white. He spreads his mangled fingers[4]. Ren thrusts his saber forwards, holding it mere inches away from the former Emperor’s throat.]

KYLO REN: What could you give me?

PALPATINE: Everything.

[Meanwhile, a massive fleet of Xyston-class Star Destroyers breaks through the icy ground and emerges into the tempestuous sky.]

PALPATINE: The might of the Sith Eternal[5] is soon to be ready. It’ll be yours if you do as I ask — kill the girl, end the Jedi, then strike me down in anger, and my spirit will pass into you. We will be one. We will rule together as the new Emperor.[6]

[Kylo Ren lowers his saber.]

PALPATINE: But beware, she is not who you think she is.

KYLO REN: Who is she?

[Palpatine smiles sinisterly as thunder rumbles and the scene cuts to black.]

[1] This would replace the original theatrical shot with Snoke clones and poppasketti’s current shot with Palpatine clones. It drives home the inference that Palpatine is shitty at making clones — let alone any lifeform — with his tech, whilst also having to sacrifice the explicit nature of the reveal that Palpatine manufactured Snoke himself, pushing said reveal into inference… that Snoke was made from another one of Palpatine’s shitty, failed clones.

[2] One idea the film establishes is that the First Order hasn’t exactly doing so well in the year after The Last Jedi. It is reinforced by the First Order seeming smaller than in the previous two films, and Kylo Ren wanting to take Palpatine’s fleet for himself so the First Order would, as he, himself, puts it, “become a new Empire.” This change reinforces that, and I feel it helps separate the First Order from Palpatine and his fleet and makes it more of its own thing.

[3] I changed it to that because, well… basically, I’m like: “How would Palpatine dying first give Kylo Ren the ‘more’, exactly?”

[4] Yes, the shot of his hands is moved here, to immediately drive the point home that his clone body is rotting and decaying. And I feel that, as a side effect, that it’d get MisAnthro Pony to shut up about Palpatine lifting the fleet.

[5] In canon, that is the title of Palpatine’s Sith cult. However, here, it is used to refer to the fleet as a whole, replacing the title “Final Order”, as I feel Palpatine would want the Sith to be eternal and rule for eternity, you get the picture. Hopefully, other lines that reference this name can be AI-changed into “Sith Eternal”.

[6] This accomplishes a similar goal to in the actual Ascendant edit — setting up the stakes for later. I do like the idea in the actual edit, but I feel it muddies Palpatine’s plans and the inference that he has been planning to possess Kylo Ren after he kills Rey and, thus, destroys his “conflicted soul”. So, I made the inference from the theatrical cut explicit. Yes, the parallel to The Last Jedi was intentional.

EDIT: Moved it to the Redux Ideas thread.

Also, I’d suggest re-removing that Poe scene. I feel it’d ruin the surprise after Hux’s “A single light fighter?”.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Included some vague references to dark secrets being out in the Unknown Regions, as well as some Imperials never returning from there (TROS reference)

I feel that’d still undermine TLJ’s message of hope as it hints at a greater threat.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Surprisingly the “Luke Has A Moment” deleted scene doesn’t make an appearance in the novelization. I wrote a rough draft of what it might look like below:

Luke nearly recoiled from the gap in his doorway. The girl’s determined gaze reminded him too much of a younger version of himself. Confident. Bold. Reckless. And most importantly, foolish.

He sat down next to a floor table, easing his descent with his mechanical hand, which whirred in protest. She would never truly understand why he had chosen to leave the fight. Neither would Leia.

Leia. While he had lost the man he had come to see as his best friend, she had lost her husband. He couldn’t imagine the pain she felt right now. The worst of it all was that he alone was to blame for Han’s death. Everything was. And even if the Resistance wasn’t able to see it, his return would only make their circumstances worse. He knew that for certain.

Tears pooled on the surface of the table as Luke Skywalker wept silently.

It does reveal that Luke blames himself for things a little early, but it doesn’t reveal the specifics of that so I’m willing to overlook it.

It can already be inferred in the Falcon scene that he’s sad about losing Han.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I can see the symbolism there of course, but even the novelization plays the scene up as a joke. “Then Luke tossed the lightsaber off the cliff.” That could easily show up under the definition of deadpan humor. Sure, I could rewrite it to sound less comedic, but there is also symbolism in what I rewrote it as. Luke shoves the lightsaber right back into her hand, basically saying “that legend you see me as is only real in your head.”

The original symbolism set up not only Luke wanting the past to die but also this scene alone: “It’s time for the Jedi to end.”

Bit of a CinemaSins-style nitpick, but have Luke refer to Palps as simply Palpatine and not by his Sith title. I feel like the galaxy (& by extension Rey) wouldn’t have known him as a Sith at this point, especially until TRoS.

He says as much by later claiming that the Jedi were responsible for the creation of Darth Vader.

Speaking of which, I suggest reinforcing the destruction idea/inference by changing the line to: “It was the Jedi who were responsible for the training and creation of Dooku and Vader.” Of course, Rey can still remind Luke: “And a Jedi who saved him,” which leans more into Vader than Dooku as he did that in RotJ.

Gravedigging from the Ascendant thread. Posted this here specifically because of sherlock’s suggestion. CONTEXT

@sherklock Apologies for the delay. Just didn’t think of a proper response at the time.

sherlockpotter said:

I don’t really think this is the time or place to talk about Rey’s arc. Unless Hal is willing to upend the entire structure of the film for V2, that should be kept in the Redux thread, methinks.

I’ll just say that I disagree with your analysis, Testing. There’s a lot of circular logic in your points, but I can only offer my own interpretation. I don’t think Rey’s arc was ever about being “loved”; it was about finding where she belongs. They’re similar, but not exactly the same. She doesn’t need other people to love her; hence why she was initially tough with Finn, rather than friendly. But she immediately likes Han, who represents a new mission. After Han she tries to go with Luke, when Luke fails her she goes to Kylo. She wants to belong with other people; she doesn’t want to be admired by them. That’s why her Force Vision shows her with no one but herself.

Maz even explictedly tells her “The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead.”

TestingOutTheTest said:

She believes this lie that the only way to feel happy, to feel loved is if she gains approval from others as well as if she pleases others which would then result in said others giving her the validation she desires to make herself feel happy; why do you think she freed BB-8 from Teedo? Why do you think she bypassed the compressor on the Falcon? Why do you think she told Luke that she would not fail him in the way Kylo Ren did?

I mean, it didn’t seem like she was worried about gaining anyone’s approval on Jakku. (Remember when she didn’t sell BB-8?) And I just thought she did those things because she’s, ya know, nice? Maybe I’m reaching.

Again, let’s move this discussion to another forum though.

Nah. Below is why.

I don’t think Rey’s arc was ever about being “loved”; it was about finding where she belongs.

She clearly shows signs of low self-worth throughout the trilogy, especially TFA & TLJ:

She rejects the Skywalker saber and her place as a Hero from Maz (now, you could argue that she was scared, but she was calmed down by Maz immediately afterwards) - implies she doesn’t think she deserves to be the Hero.

She wants Luke and Ben to be the Hero in TLJ - implies she doesn’t think she deserves to be the Hero, and it’s only after the throne room scene when she is forced to be said Hero.

She bypasses the compressor, literally spells it out word-by-word to him desperately, he shrugs it off without caring and this causes Rey to look away in disappointment - implies she seeks validation, and in turn that she doesn’t give herself any self-value. She also cries in TLJ when she realizes she’s failed to redeem Kylo, that she’s let the Resistance down.

She overcompensates by trying to show her worth, trying to prove herself to others, like when she insists: “Kylo failed you, I won’t.” This is also something Kylo addresses in TRoS: “You wanted to prove to my mother that you were a Jedi, but you’ve proven something else.”

She hastily attaches herself to other people, including Han, to the point where she cries whilst seeing him being brutally murdered by Ren despite barely ever spending time with him.

She blames herself for apparently killing Chewie in TRoS.

She has misplaced and inappropriate outbursts of anger, especially in TLJ (when she hits Luke from behind) and TRoS (when she stabs Kylo), despite having no reason to, other than an unconscious core belief of self-worthlessness being the only explanation.

She doesn’t need other people to love her; hence why she was initially tough with Finn, rather than friendly.

What? BB-8 convinced her that Finn stole Poe’s jacket. And he’s literally grabbing her hand without permission despite her being capable of escaping from the TIEs on her own.

But she immediately likes Han, who represents a new mission.

No. She sees him as a father figure, as Kylo confirms in TFA and TLJ, respectively. And, as I stated, she seeks validation/admiration from him, as shown in the compressor scene.

After Han she tries to go with Luke, when Luke fails her she goes to Kylo.

No. She sees Luke as a father figure as well and seeks her place to use it to justify her parents’ abandonment of her so she wouldn’t feel worthless, and she goes to Kylo because she was alone in the cave and didn’t want to feel alone - which is another symptom of her feelings of self-worthlessness, as she could just give herself some kind of feeling so she wouldn’t feel alone when it’s just her. You get the point.

I mean, it didn’t seem like she was worried about gaining anyone’s approval on Jakku. (Remember when she didn’t sell BB-8?)

My pointers of Rey seeking validation rely on inferences and subtext. They don’t have to be explicitly shown or addressed in the movie, otherwise it’d be spoonfeeding/pandering/yadda yadda, you get the point.

You do have a point about Rey not selling BB-8 to Unkar, but I still stand by my other points of her seeking validation from people.

Maz even explictedly tells her “The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead.”

She needs belonging so she wouldn’t feel alone, as stated above.

And I just thought she did those things because she’s, ya know, nice? Maybe I’m reaching.

Yeah, you’re reaching. And I debunked those pointers above.

Removed Snoke assaulting General Hux. I want to emphasize the difference between the way Kylo treats him and Snoke treats him to make his betrayal in TROS make more sense.

I feel it’s supposed to be like in Empire when Vader chokes the officer - it reinforces him being intimidating. Similarly for Snoke.

Small spelling error, but it’s Kaydel, not Kadel.

For example, he gives the Skywalker lightsaber back to Rey and tells her to “leave this island” instead of tossing it off a cliff. It achieves the same effect, but indicates that Luke respects his father while still being devoted to letting the Jedi end.

Just to address two things. His father was part of the cycle of destruction that the Jedi unintentionally brought every single time, the latter of which is one of the reasons why Luke wanted the Jedi to end.

Secondly, that symbolized Luke throwing away the past behind him.

I interpreted it as the movie using visual storytelling so it’d be sensible to the audience that this is a Force cave.

Burbin said:

sherlockpotter said:

Then, for that Kylo scene, get rid of the entire ADR conversation with Palps. It’s all useless, repetitive dialogue that really doesn’t progress the story at all, so who cares about that.

I think the moment the scene is placed in V1 it helps keep Palpatine as a looming threat (where in the original he just kinda vanishes for the first half of the film), and it sets up a bunch of things: Palpatine immediately starts suspecting Kylo wants to betray him, and Kylo deflects the question, which helps with the new direction we’re taking Kylo where he doesn’t want to “take the throne” and inherit the Sith legacy. Palpatine also immediatley threatens Kylo with turning the Sith fleet against him which helps explain why he’s “working for him” despite the conflicting interests.

And his answer “I know where she’s going, she’ll never be a Jedi” also builds on (and helps spell out) Rey’s struggle in the film, and it sets up their confrontation on the DSII. With the original placement of the scene the setup and payoff were pretty much immediate (or reversed in the case of the “betray Palpatine” reveal), now it’s set up early and paid off across the latter part of the film. So I think it’s a pretty useful scene.

Not to mention both versions of the scene help further explain why Palps wanted Ren to kill Rey: he knew Ren was conflicted, and he wanted him to get rid of that confliction so he’d be willing to perform the essence transfer ritual.

Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Snoke mind-probing Rey has Palpatine’s theme playing. Palpatine has a desire for immortality in RotS, and implies he DOES know how to keep himself alive during the opera scene. Kylo Ren asks for Vader’s helmet to show him that power AGAIN. Snoke is very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his lines in TLJ. Even Snoke’s guards have the same color scheme as Palps’ guards.

I’ll grant you that Snoke having Palpatine’s theme feels now better in retrospective (instead of being just an unsubtle remainder of ‘remember! he’s our Emperor stand-in’). But the rest were just similarities to drive home the parallelisms with the OT (almost everything in the ST, from the ships to the armors, is a reimagining or visual callback to familiar elements of the OT). Since Snoke plays the part of Palpatine (at least until he’s killed off), it was expected TLJ would feature familiar OT iconography in the form of red guards and even its own version of the ROTJ creepy advisers.

Unintended, retroactive foreshadowing that Palps’ return pays off and fits in with.

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

But they were nobody. Even TROS confirms that. It is what happened and why they left that what Rey imagines is more imporant that reality for the plot of TFA and TLJ. But in TROS we learn the truth and it furthers the story rather than reframing.

I was referring to Rey’s parents being bad people who threw her away like garbage - they thought she was worthless. That’s what Rey meant when she said that, they didn’t have a reason to abandon her, they didn’t care about her. Re-read my previous posts and the original. It’s the (storytelling) truth or else that arc’d be pointless, all for nothing - which, again, is what happens in TRoS.

Looks like we’re gonna be going in circles…

What’s wrong with Ben’s “ow” being his final line?

But my point is there was no indication it’s how Rey felt when she admitted “They were nobody.” There’s nothing that contradicts this as truth when we do get to that point in TLJ. If there was a hint that it was what Rey believed in TLJ, then I would agree with you.

And I pointed out before that Star Wars is a fantasy. It doesn’t really have to be accurate to real life.

I meant in the sense that the Wayfinder’d be pointless.

On /r/starwarscantina?

Then why doesn’t Palps just lead Kylo Ren to Exegol?

And I think that’s why you will continue to not understand any of our perspectives because you fail to at least acknowledge some of these decisions were executed poorly

It’s called “having an opinion”. You think some decisions were executed badly, I don’t think those specific ones are.

Not from an acting, directing, or chemistry perspective.

I AM looking at the line this way. The things I mentioned are WHY the delivery is lifeless. It being lifeless is the point.

I know, I just felt like changing wouldn’t really be necessary because that was the explanation.

Cadavra said:

I feel like we’ve been going around in circles on most of this, Testing, so I won’t waste either of our time going point-by-point (also, frankly I’m going to resist the urge to respond in kind to some of the more obnoxious lines).

I just wanted you to understand my perspective and see where I’m coming from. That’s the point of discussion. And if you’re referring to stuff in capitals, I’m just using that to highlight my point and come across as a bit stern so you’d understand.

Instead, I’ll just share one piece of sincere advice: it’s fine to be passionate about a movie you like and other people don’t, but trying to badger people into liking something never works. If anything, it’s more likely to leave people less inclined to take a fresh look at the thing you’re championing.

I edited it to remove that part.

As I stated multiple times in this thread, Rey’s “They were nobody” meant they didn’t have an actual reason to abandon her - they thought she was WORTHLESS. Even if you ignore Kylo Ren’s following dialogue, it retains that meaning.

“Oh, but that’s what Rey believes!” As I stated, it’s the storytelling truth or else that arc of moving past her awful, shitty parents who hated her would be pointless. She moves past them in TLJ by the time we meet her on Crait. (Again, link to STC, don’t really recommend checking it out if you hate STC.)

I do agree with you that she accepts they’re GONE, but it was ONE of the points of her TLJ arc, not the ONLY one - the other one was that she doesn’t care about her parents anymore, from a personal and validation sense, BECAUSE they threw her away like garbage.