act on instinct said:
Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.
Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?
And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.
Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.
Cadavra said:
It is absolutely not fundamental, because it doesn’t actually progress the plot or change the characters in any meaningful way
Of course it changes a character in a meaningful way — Palpatine himself, from dead and gone to alive and threatening. And his being back IS the plot. It’s THE challenge of Episode IX.
The “HOW Palpatine came back” isn’t important to the story - the fact that Palpatine SURVIVED is. Similarly, “HOW Rey beat Kylo Ren” (the injury) isn’t important, the fact that she DEFEATED him is.
“I am your father” had no set-up as well and, by your logic, makes ESB feel disjointed with ANH.
Not at all. First, even if Vader being Anakin hadn’t been decided when ANH was made, it’s still much clearer that there’s at least something more to the story than Obi-Wan first tells Luke—Obi-Wan looking visibly uncomfortable before he tells the lie
Actually (in just ANH alone), Obi-Wan was sad that Luke’s father - a good friend - was killed by Vader.
Owen telling Beru he’s afraid of Luke having too much of his father in him, etc.
I advise you to re-watch that scene. It’s Beru who says that, and Owen says that is what he’s afraid of. And even then, the scene is about Luke leaving and how Owen can’t accept that - this implies he didn’t want Luke’s father to leave Tatooine as well and avoid being a farmer like himself (Owen) and Beru.
The ESB and TLJ reveals enrich what came before; the TROS reveal muddies it.
Except Palpatine’s return DOES enrich the ST. He’s been the mastermind all this time from the start, pulling the strings behind Snoke, Kylo Ren, the First Order, Luke’s exile, the destruction of his Jedi Order and the bridging of Rey and Kylo Ren’s minds, and now the heroes have to stop the true threat before he DOES return. He will do whatever it takes to get what he wants, to take and rule over the galaxy and have all the power to himself.
Second, “betrayed and murdered” is not framed as some huge, shocking revelation, and in fact it’s positioned at roughly the same point in Luke’s story that “my parents will come back for me” is positioned in Rey’s. “I am your father” is the shocking mid-point twist of the OT, just as “they sold you for drinking money” is for the ST. They come at roughly the same points in their respective trilogies, upending the assumptions each hero started with. Luke has the rest of his trilogy to figure out how to handle this one challenging revelation; Rey in effect has to come to terms with two, one after another.
Just a point, Rey already deals with her parents believing she’s worthless in TLJ - she doesn’t care about them anymore, and now has the Resistance become her newfound family who’ll give her validation and belonging. (Of course, TRoS makes this pointless by having her parents turn out to have hid her for her safety from Palpatine, but you get my point.)
Second, “betrayed and murdered” is not framed as some huge, shocking revelation, and in fact it’s positioned at roughly the same point in Luke’s story that “my parents will come back for me” is positioned in Rey’s. “I am your father” is the shocking mid-point twist of the OT, just as “they sold you for drinking money” is for the ST. They come at roughly the same points in their respective trilogies, upending the assumptions each hero started with. Luke has the rest of his trilogy to figure out how to handle this one challenging revelation; Rey in effect has to come to terms with two, one after another.
That kind of upending is fine to do once in a three-part story; doing it multiple times with the exact same question for the exact same character within the same amount of story is just juvenile. It’s the sort of thing that gives comic books a reputation for convoluted long-term histories as new writers come in and mess with what their predecessors did, but stories with distinct beginnings, middles, and ends are supposed to be better than that.
That has nothing to do with Palpatine’s return itself, just with Rey’s arc.
On that topic, Rey DOESN’T deal with two (I’m assuming the other one is “They were nobody”) - she deals with ONE. When she says her parents were nobody, it meant they had no actual reason to care about her - they hated her, they threw her away like garbage, they thought she was WORTHLESS.
And “Rey Palpatine” doesn’t answer the question about her PARENTS’ identity, just reinforces her self-worth arc.
Palpatine is essentially dead until he rejuvenates himself with the dyad’s life energy
“Essentially dead”? Come on.
Yes, his body’s literally decaying and has to use a life support machine, and the Sith clearly haven’t returned by TRoS (“The Sith are reborn, the Jedi are dead!” “Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!”). The prophecy is that Anakin would destroy the Sith - and he did.
after that he is killed for good, fulfilling the prophecy once again.
Is it for good, though? There is absolutely nothing in the film itself that tells us why we should be confident this is the case.
I already explained why this is wrong.
And I see you’re fine with Luke failing to create the Jedi or stuff like that.
Huh? No I’m not. And I’m not sure what that has to do with this discussion.
Your comment.
In particular, having Kylo’s turn, Han’s death (which, let’s face it, would probably be a Harrison Ford requirement no matter what), and the fall of Luke’s academy all happen simultaneously onscreen, as the immediate precursors to the trilogy’s central war, alleviates The Force Awakens’ implication that Luke, Han, and Leia’s lives all sucked before we see them again.
I’m pointing out your hypocrisy, you dislike Palpatine’s undoing of the Chosen One yet literally reinforced the undoing of the OT heroes’ accomplishments.
Rey never killed Palpatine herself, she just reflected his lightning onto his face - he essentially committed suicide.
We could just as easily say that if Rey had swung when Palpatine wanted her to, it wouldn’t be her “killing Palpatine herself”; it would have been her lightsaber blade killing him. The tool is not the act, and does not change the intention or causality behind the act.
But Palpatine still essentially committed suicide, he was the one who started shooting lightning in the first place - if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have been killed. If the same thing happened between him and Vader in RotJ, he WOULDN’T have survived.
Palpatine has to be killed by another Force-sensitive in order for Sith essence transfer to even work in the first place. Why do you think he didn’t commit suicide or have a non-Force-sensitive kill him a long time ago?
Even if that’s how it was intended to work (which is not stated anywhere in the film), then presumably he could have transferred into one of the Knights of Ren.
Or an able-bodied Exegol cultist (presumably at least some were Force-sensitive). Or had his underlings scour the galaxy for healthy young Force-sensitives.
First off, it’s an INFERENCE. It doesn’t have to be spelled out to you.
Secondly, all the Knights of Ren are dead, there was no indication he knew any of them were Force-sensitive, and he certainly didn’t know where they were specifically at even before their deaths.
Thirdly, there was no indication any of his cultists were Force-sensitive.
Lastly, he targeted Rey and then Ben because she was his granddaughter (and he’s foreseen what she’d become) and Ben was the Chosen One’s grandson.
Knight of Kalee said:
But “I’m your father” works better because it happens at the middle part of a trilogy, and near the ending. This means the film (only considering Empire, not ANH) has dedicated runtime to set this up or foreshadow this in a way (e.g. Luke’s vision in the cave) and the twist accomplishes its goal as a climax and as a cliffhanger ending to get audiences excited for part III.
Palpatine’s return doesn’t land as well because it’s just dropped on the audience and expects the viewer to just get along with it
By your logic, same with the Death Star in ANH’s crawl (not considering the prequels or Rogue One). And “I am your father” was just dropped on the audience as well.
And it DOES land well, as I’ve explained in this comment above.
and the rushed pacing of TROS doesn’t make matters better.
I’ve watched TRoS TWICE, and I never understood how the pacing is rushed, exactly.
Even if it wasn’t spoiled in marketing, Palpatine’s comeback is stated right away in the opening crawl, meaning the audience is deprived of the chance to experience the revelation along with the characters. Seeing Luke’s reaction to his parentage reveal, coming from Vader himself, helps to set the mood of the scene, and we follow Luke pondering on this new knowledge the entire remainder of the film. He even acts as an audience surrogate by explicitly wondering why Ben Kenobi didn’t tell him the truth. Instead when Kylo lands on Exegol we are already expecting to see Palpatine, and it’s only the second scene. Of course it hasn’t been revealed how he survived or what his plans are yet, but since the revelation of his return is mentioned in passing as if it were an afterthought, it carries less weight than it should. It doesn’t help that the Palpatine retcon feels more random than the Vader retcon because it happens in the last film. There won’t be a direct sequel or an interquel trilogy to explain it (as far as we know the Skywalker saga is done). For comparison, a good chunk of Return of the Jedi is dedicated to confirm the plot twist (many viewers believed Vader was lying) and further develop the relationship between Vader and Luke and how it feeds Vader’s inner conflict. TROS is so rushed that the importance of such an array of reveals (Palpatine is back, and Rey is his granddaughter) doesn’t get enough time to be dwelled on or let the audience come to terms with it.
Except the characters DO react to Palpatine’s return. “The message CONFIRMS the worst.” Implying the Resistance DIDN’T believe Palpatine was alive at first. Then they’re surprised, afterwards asking all sorts of questions.
Also, Kylo Ren wanting to kill Palpatine IS his reaction. He is a threat to Ren’s power, and he’ll (referring to Ren) do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy for himself.