TestingOutTheTest

Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

Way for that point to go over your head. I’m saying that set-up doesn’t matter. AT ALL. The lack of a set-up makes the actual reveal more surprising and impactful (+ Palpatine being established as a mastermind and having an interest in immortality and willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy). Palps’ return is SUPPOSED to be a surprise.

Set-up matters depending on context. Would Avengers: Infinity Work have worked so well if the Infinity Stones or Thanos hadn’t been established in prior movies?

The difference is that Palpatine was a pre-established character who’s the Dark Lord of the Sith, a mastermind, and is willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy. He’s played both sides during the prequels, for f&$k’s sake! We’ve seen what Palpatine does and can do.

Thanos and the Infinity Stones would not in your hypothetical example.

TROS was meant to be a climax for both the sequel trilogy and the overall Skywalker saga. It has over 40 years of established lore and audience appeal behind it. It should have been a satisfying payoff for the storylines set in motion by TFA and TLJ, but instead it

It what? Say it! Are you the king? ARE YOU THE KING?! You’re what? Say it!

SparkySywer has a really good point on how the Darth Vader twist works because in retrospective it makes sense. When you rewatch ESB one begins to notice the nuances and clues that originally flew over one’s head. But in the sequel trilogy, looking back at TFA and TLJ, you don’t find many elements that tease or contextualise Palpatine’s return. Their storylines, particularly TLJ’s, don’t seem to be building towards this particular premise. A very diferent situation would have happened if TLJ or both TFA/TLJ had been made with Palps’s comeback in mind.

Snoke mind-probing Rey has Palpatine’s theme playing. Palpatine has a desire for immortality in RotS, and implies he DOES know how to keep himself alive during the opera scene. Kylo Ren asks for Vader’s helmet to show him that power AGAIN. Snoke is very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his lines in TLJ. Even Snoke’s guards have the same color scheme as Palps’ guards.

I’ll concede to you that the transmission itself is not really important, which is why I don’t understand what was the point of having it in the first place. The time they deciphered the intel should have been the moment where anyone (save for Kylo) first heard of Palpatine’s comeback instead of muddying the waters with an offscreen broadcast.

The point was to give Kylo Ren a motivation to hunt down Palpatine, and to add more weight to when Poe confirms to the Resistance that Palpatine IS alive.

Cadavra said:

By your logic, how Rey beat Kylo Ren and why Holdo doesn’t tell Poe her plan need a logical basis.

First, Rey beating Kylo DID get a logical basis shown in the film itself pretty clearly. The movie went out of its way to (1) establish via her staff that Rey has experience with melee weapons, (2) demonstrate the power of Chewie’s bowcaster, (3) show Kylo getting shot with the bowcaster, (4) linger on Kylo’s wound before the duel, and (5) show Rey firmly on defense until she lets the Force in. This aspect of TFA, at least, is actually a master class in showing rather than telling; all the pieces are patiently doled out IN THE MOVIE ITSELF. I don’t think any of the TROS elements I’m criticizing come anywhere near that close.

This logic applies to how Palpatine survived in RotJ. He wants to transfer his spirit into and possess Rey/Kylo Ren. He explicitly confirms to Ren he’s died before, further reinforced by him visibly exploding in RotJ. He can create bodies from scratch like Snoke, and his current body is identical to his original. Hence, one can infer he transferred his spirit to his clone body after RotJ.

Second, I do think Holdo not telling Poe the plan was poorly handled in TLJ, as well, and there should have been a real explanation for why she didn’t. Did you assume that I don’t think that?

Except Holdo’s refusal DOES make sense and DOES have a real explanation. Given that the First Order is consistently locating the Resistance (“Our base is Starkiller’s next target” in TFA, meaning the FO is aware of their base; in TLJ they evacuate BECAUSE of this, and even in just TLJ the FO tracks the Resistance through lightspeed and no one has any clue as to HOW they tracked 'em thru lightspeed) and given Holdo’s refusal, put two and two together and one can INFER she believes there’s a spy leaking information to the First Order.

Inferences ARE real explanations, they just aren’t explicitly confirmed in dialogue or in visual storytelling. It’s like saying the following inference I’m about to mention isn’t a real explanation - there’s a cat and a broken vase next to a table, put two and two together and one can INFER the cat knocked the vase off the table.

The audience has no reason at that point to believe that Vader is Luke’s father. That’s NOT how foreshadowing works.

You seem to have misread what I wrote again. I didn’t say those elements were foreshadowing or that anyone would suspect Vader was Luke’s father. I said they fit perfectly with the ESB reveal and take on new and deeper meaning when viewed through that lens, regardless of original intent. Which they obviously do.

But both reveals STILL came out of nowhere and had no explicit set-up. That’s my point. That foreshadowing is absolutely NOT necessary. That Palps’ return is surprising BECAUSE of the lack of set-up.

How, exactly?

By me watching Episodes VII and VIII after having seen IX and not feeling any newfound, Palpatine-related interest, that’s how (if anything, it got in the way of all the elements I was interested in). In fact, the most amazing things about my first post-TROS viewings of the previous movies was how I didn’t feel like they were leading up to anything Palpatine-related at all. They didn’t feel to me at all like they connected to TROS. And I am immensely grateful for that, because it helps me continue to enjoy those films on their own terms (even if I do have to settle for swapping out TROS for my own fan script in my personal headcanon).

If you enjoyed them and found meaning in the trilogy as a satisfying whole, great. I would never even think of trying to stop you. But that simply wasn’t my experience, nor was it the experience of most of the friends with whom I enjoy Star Wars.

I meant as in: “How does Palpatine’s return make the events less interesting?” And I already explained WHY it DOES make them MORE interesting.

Except the “Rey Palpatine” storyline ISN’T about family drama.

You’re reading too much into a simple phrase. It’s drama. It’s related to family. That’s all “family drama” means.

God, you don’t understand what it is.

it adds to Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness, whilst also reinforcing that the saga is about the conflict between the Skywalkers and Palpatine himself, with his heir basically flipping him off when she adopts the Skywalker name to honor Luke and Leia.

I don’t see “Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness” being a thing, sorry. I know it’s a point you’re passionate about, I’ve read some of your arguments about it, but I just don’t see her that way. If that interpretation is true and meaningful to you, then again, more power to you. It simply doesn’t factor into my interpretation.

I recommend you read my essay. It lists evidence and symptoms of it.

I also don’t care all that much for her adoption of the Skywalker name. Oh well.

I do. It drives home the point of the trilogy - the Skywalker legacy will live on after the actual bloodline (including Ben) dies off. It’s more meaningful than Luke’s daughter continuing their legacy.

Fair, but Anakin still brought balance for almost 30 years.

Yeah, it’s fair to say the ST doesn’t completely ignore the issue, but it sure doesn’t treat it as significant. If they were gonna use Palpatine, I would very much preferred a meatier treatment of it.

Why does that balance need to be significant, exactly?

Subjective.

That’s one of the most important points here. MOST of what we’re arguing about is subjective. Yes, you inferences mean most of the story’s events make enough sense from a canon perspective, and enjoying it on that level, as a package deal with the theorizing and the reference books and the other supplements is one thing. And yes, some unanswered questions are good in movies (mainly about themes, symbolism, tertiary plot points, etc.). But when discussing a film’s merits as a film, the core experience has to stand on its own, relying only on the other films in the same series. It must be digestible to casuals and fanboys alike, with as few obstacles as possible to both groups’ understanding and satisfaction.

To make another comparison, I mostly liked Solo, and I loved Maul’s cameo at the end, which I understood instantly because I followed The Clone Wars and Rebels. But I can also separate my personal enjoyment of the product from from my recognition that including Maul was a bad move from a general-audiences filmmaking standpoint, because it needlessly confused the hell out of a lot of people who didn’t know why a guy they last saw die in a movie from 1999 was suddenly back and running a crime cartel.

Yes, that’s what I’m arguing here. Film is subjective in whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing to YOU, but it’s objective in the sense of whether in-story and in-universe events and plot points and stuff DO make sense or not. That’s what MauLer - f%#king MauLer - means when he says film is objective.

Regarding Maul’s appearance in Solo, by your logic, it’s never explained how Anakin survived being burned up on Mustafar. Oh wait, one can infer the dark side kept both characters alive. And casual audiences don’t care or know about inference in storytelling, it’s their fault they haven’t paid attention in English class - that’s the problem with most Star Wars movie fans post-1998 (the “1998” is intentional).

Same with TFA and TLJ, by your logic.

Sure. I have no problem agreeing that both films have things that aren’t adequately explained, although in TFA and TLJ those things do not detract from my enjoyment nearly as much because I find them far stronger and more enjoyable movies overall.

Except TFA & TLJ DO have things that ARE explained. Those explanations rely on INFERENCE as well, same with TRoS, the prequels and every short film from Pixar. Even f%$king children’s cartoons rely on inference.

Except it IS impressive, because the Knights of Ren were trained and are skilled fighters - they’re more skilled than stormtroopers, who use blasters.

Most skilled normal fighters (outside of Mandalorians) are no match for a well-trained Jedi or Dark Jedi.

And? That’s not the point. Why else would Kylo Ren keep 'em around? Because they’re well-trained. They’re more of a threat to Resistance forces than stormtroopers. And all other Jedi (except Luke) were DEAD at the point he took 'em in.

And again, there was no indication Palps knew they were Force-sensitive.

If Snoke knew, then Palpatine would have known.

There’s no indication from the films Snoke knew, either.

I never said that, it’s just Palps personally wanted to be MORE powerful.

Well then if it’s just a matter of what he wanted, then any old able-bodied Force-sensitive would suffice. Guy would’ve been smart to dispatch some henchmen to search the galaxy for a few, just in case Oochi did something stupid like get himself killed in the desert while searching for Palpatine’s granddaughter.

[Camera zooms in like it’s an episode of The Office.]

That’s why Palpatine decided to turn Ben to the dark side.

Is there something wrong with that? No?

Sure there is. It robs the scenario of moral or thematic depth, and needlessly creates practical complication and confusion.

Again, subjective. I’d rather have my story make sense than have moral/thematic depth. And it is NOT confusing, as I’ve explained so many times in this thread.

This, alone, IMPLIES it works that way.

If something seems to work a certain way, and the best answer for why is circular (it works that way because we see it work that way), then it’s either a flawed concept or a flawed execution.

How is it flawed, exactly? It’s literally how it works in storytelling.

As I stated, Palpatine using Force lightning in RotJ, ALONE, implies he’s a powerful dark side Force-user and that only skilled dark side Force-users like him can use Force lightning. Why do you think neither Luke or Obi-Wan or Yoda or Vader use it?

Palpatine was OVERCONFIDENT. It’s something Luke spells out in RotJ: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.”

Sure, but overconfident doesn’t mean incompetent, and it certainly never has in Palpatine’s case.

Except Palpatine being overconfident DOES make him incompetent. Because of that, he’s so incompetent he doesn’t realize Vader’s about to pick him up and throw him into the shaft. In the same way, he doesn’t realize Rey’s gonna reflect his Force lightning onto his face, and he was hoping for her to die from his attack.

act on instinct said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

act on instinct said:

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?

And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.

Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.

You didn’t read what I said at all. My point was that technical connections don’t absolve poor execution. You can cook a chicken without burning it and still make a bland meal.

How are they poorly-executed, exactly? “I don’t like sand” was executed well, it reinforced how bad the old Jedi are and was a natural progression of Anakin growing up with it holding him back emotionally.

Ben Solo memorized the way to Exegol.

Cadavra said:

The “HOW Palpatine came back” isn’t important to the story - the fact that Palpatine SURVIVED is.

And facts require a logical basis in the story itself. This is Fiction Writing 101.

By your logic, how Rey beat Kylo Ren and why Holdo doesn’t tell Poe her plan need a logical basis. The explanations themselves don’t matter, what’s going on in the surface-level text does.

Obi-Wan was sad that Luke’s father - a good friend - was killed by Vader […] is about Luke leaving and how Owen can’t accept that - this implies he didn’t want Luke’s father to leave Tatooine as well and avoid being a farmer like himself (Owen) and Beru.

Of course those are the initial, superficial meanings of both scenes. That’s not the point. The point is that the scenes also have hooks and hints at something more which fit perfectly with the revelation that Vader is Anakin, regardless of whether that was the original intention.

It IS the point. The audience has no reason at that point to believe that Vader is Luke’s father. That’s NOT how foreshadowing works. Also, by your logic, Snoke being a carbon copy of Palps in TFA & TLJ as well as the latter’s theme playing when he’s mind-probing Rey in TLJ is foreshadowing of Palpatine’s return.

And those scenes have NO hooks or hints at that.

Except Palpatine’s return DOES enrich the ST. He’s been the mastermind all this time from the start, pulling the strings behind [etc.]

I do not find anything in Episodes VII or VIII more interesting when viewed in the context of Palpatine being above Snoke and by extension everything else.

How, exactly? It reinforces Palpatine as the mastermind and the main villain of the saga, and further makes TRoS feel like an ACTUAL series finale to nine movies - it makes it more meaningful and impactful when Palpatine is defeated.

Just a point, Rey already deals with her parents believing she’s worthless in TLJ - she doesn’t care about them anymore, and now has the Resistance become her newfound family who’ll give her validation and belonging.

That’s exactly my point — the question of Rey’s family already got a satisfying resolution in VIII, and in a proper Episode IX that resolution could have informed her struggle as the story moved onto dealing with the stage that had been set for the final phase of the war. Instead of letting that resolution stand on its own, Abrams and Terrio felt the need to reopen the case, cramming an all-new (and much more repetitive) family drama into a final chapter that was already overstuffed with half-baked ideas and dangling threads.

Except the “Rey Palpatine” storyline ISN’T about family drama. She’s scared of the revelation initially because she doesn’t know how the galaxy would react if they do find out, then she’s convinced that it’s the reason for her giving into the dark side, so she exiles herself. Then Luke convinces her that just because she’s a Palpatine, doesn’t mean the galaxy will inherently hate her. She doesn’t care about Palpatine as a family member, she just doesn’t want to be seen as worthless by everyone else.

It doesn’t cram in a family drama for the sake of it - it adds to Rey’s core belief of self-worthlessness, whilst also reinforcing that the saga is about the conflict between the Skywalkers and Palpatine himself, with his heir basically flipping him off when she adopts the Skywalker name to honor Luke and Leia.

On that topic, Rey DOESN’T deal with two (I’m assuming the other one is “They were nobody”) - she deals with ONE. When she says her parents were nobody, it meant they had no actual reason to care about her - they hated her, they threw her away like garbage, they thought she was WORTHLESS.

Huh? Of course she deals with two (contradictory) revelations: “they were random bums who sold her for drinking money,” and “they were heroic relatives of the Emperor who sacrificed themselves to protect her.”

I already pointed out that “her parents being good people who loved her” DOES undermine her TLJ arc. Just because I like TRoS, doesn’t mean it’s a 100% flawless masterpiece.

And I initially thought you were referring to “They were nobody” and “They sold you for drinking money”.

Yes, his body’s literally decaying and has to use a life support machine, and the Sith clearly haven’t returned by TRoS (“The Sith are reborn, the Jedi are dead!” “Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!”). The prophecy is that Anakin would destroy the Sith - and he did.

He isn’t dead. He’s a Sith. Through him the Sith are active and powerful enough to have been — in your words — “pulling the strings behind Snoke, Kylo Ren, the First Order, Luke’s exile, the destruction of his Jedi Order and the bridging of Rey and Kylo Ren’s minds.” The state of his physical body doesn’t change any of that.

Fair, but Anakin still brought balance for almost 30 years. Luke says in TLJ “For many years there was balance, until I saw Ben” and Anakin tells Rey to bring back the balance. This implies Palpatine, as a Sith, didn’t disrupt the balance until at least before that point.

I already explained why this is wrong.

And that explanation doesn’t convince me. Sorry, but it doesn’t.

And I’m still furthering my point.

I’m pointing out your hypocrisy, you dislike Palpatine’s undoing of the Chosen One yet literally reinforced the undoing of the OT heroes’ accomplishments.

First, I didn’t say I disliked undoing the prophecy, and in fact I laid out ideas for how undoing the prophecy could have been done well. Second, you’re quoting from one of two alternate ST ideas I tossed out in that thread — and one I specifically said was a less ambitious option than the one that would have been my own ideal.

Fair.

But Palpatine still essentially committed suicide, he was the one who started shooting lightning in the first place - if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have been killed. If the same thing happened between him and Vader in RotJ, he WOULDN’T have survived.

There’s that word “essentially” again. Even if that was the writers’ intention, the fact that Rey effectively gets off on a technicality despite the fact that she consciously acted toward the very outcome she was told would assure his victory—killing Palpatine—makes it all the sillier. It’s like some bizarre space-fantasy inversion of suicide-by-cop.

I should’ve said “accidentally” or “indirectly”. That’s what I meant. Palpatine indirectly/accidentally killed himself. And Rey, herself, infers that by killing him as a Jedi and not as a Sith, it’d prevent his return.

It’s like some bizarre space-fantasy inversion of suicide-by-cop.

Subjective.

First off, it’s an INFERENCE. It doesn’t have to be spelled out to you.

“Inference” is not a magic word that papers over shoddy plot construction. Good stories are not fill-in-the-blank activity books.

Same with TFA and TLJ, by your logic.

Secondly, all the Knights of Ren are dead, there was no indication he knew any of them were Force-sensitive, and he certainly didn’t know where they were specifically at even before their deaths.

They weren’t dead in the years between Kylo becoming their master and the Battle of Exegol. They show up on Exegol to do his bidding. If they and Kylo served Snoke, Palpatine could have manipulated Snoke to send one his way. And “master of the Knights of Ren” wouldn’t be a very impressive title for Kylo if they were just normal, no-Force thugs.

Except it IS impressive, because the Knights of Ren were trained and are skilled fighters - they’re more skilled than stormtroopers, who use blasters. And again, there was no indication Palps knew they were Force-sensitive.

And how do you know they’re on Exegol to specifically do Palps’ bidding? Even then, still, as above.

Thirdly, there was no indication any of his cultists were Force-sensitive.

See, “odds are at least a few people among dark Force worshippers can use the Force” actually IS a logical, acceptable inference based on existing information and common sense.

Still. And the inferences I listed DO have evidence from the movies.

Lastly, he targeted Rey and then Ben because she was his granddaughter (and he’s foreseen what she’d become) and Ben was the Chosen One’s grandson.

See, the idea that only a Force user that powerful could contain a spirit as powerful as his would be an adequate explanation—except TROS didn’t use it. (I know, I know, “inference.”)

I never said that, it’s just Palps personally wanted to be MORE powerful.

EDIT: One more point about Rey killing Palpatine. The plot device of something bad happening if a Jedi kills a Sith the wrong way (which Star Wars has used many times over the years) has never been about the mechanics or technicalities of the cause of death, but about the Jedi’s intentions and emotions behind the act, and the moral message they convey.

TROS takes this simple trope and reduces it to a matter of the rules of a brand-new supernatural power — rules which the movie never sees fit to share with the audience.

Is there something wrong with that? No? Alright then. And it explains why Palpatine will NEVER, EVER return after TRoS, so plot holes wouldn’t exist.

Kill Sheev out of hatred for him? He gets your body. Kill Sheev out of love for your friends? He still gets your body. Kill Sheev by deflecting his lightning? (With no obvious distinction from the amount of lightning he pumped into Luke OR the amount of lightning Mace Windu reflected back at him.) He apparently DOESN’T get your body. Why? No idea!

This, alone, IMPLIES it works that way. Similarly, Palpatine using Force lightning in RotJ, alone, implies he’s more talented and skilled than any other Force-user and that only those on the dark side can use it. By your logic, “If Palpatine can use Force lightning, why doesn’t Luke or Obi-Wan or Yoda or Vader use it?”

If a Sith Lord’s own lightning cancels out the ultimate power of the Sith — something every Sith has apparently done since Darth Bane — then one might reasonably expect SOMEBODY in a thousand years to realize that maybe they should stop using lightning. It also makes Palpatine look kind of dumb that he keeps pouring on the juice as it comes back to hit him — although, to be fair, one can hardly blame the poor guy for not expecting Force lightning to suddenly behave differently than it behaved every other time it was used in the saga.

Palpatine was OVERCONFIDENT. It’s something Luke spells out in RotJ: “Your overconfidence is your weakness.”

Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

By your logic, same with the Death Star in ANH’s crawl (not considering the prequels or Rogue One). And “I am your father” was just dropped on the audience as well.

The Death Star is a completely different beast. It’s the opening crawl for the first ever movie in the saga, where audience has not previous conceptions about the lore or the story. Of course you’d need to establish the crucial foundations to ANH’s plot: there’s a cruel Empire, they have a planet-killing Death Star, and there is a rebellion seeking a way to destroy it.

Now imagine if the crawl for Empire stated that Darth Vader wanted to find Luke suspecting that he’s his son.

Way for that point to go over your head. I’m saying that set-up doesn’t matter. AT ALL. The lack of a set-up makes the actual reveal more surprising and impactful (+ Palpatine being established as a mastermind and having an interest in immortality and willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy). Palps’ return is SUPPOSED to be a surprise.

and the rushed pacing of TROS doesn’t make matters better.

I’ve watched TRoS TWICE, and I never understood how the pacing is rushed, exactly.

Just compare the opening fifteen minutes to the prologue of any other Star Wars movie. TROS crammed three complete different scenes, each with its own significant contribution to the plot, in a time span equivalent to the entire opening of TFA on Jakku. There’s barely any room for scenes to breathe until, like, the beginning of the second act.

Except there ARE.

Kylo Ren invades Mustafar and finds a Wayfinder. He uses it to lead him to Exegol, intending to destroy the source of the broadcast as it is a threat to his power. He finds Palpatine, who reveals himself as the mastermind and offers him his fleet, in return for killing Rey.

Poe, Finn and Chewie head to the iceberg and get information from a Resistance spy, plugging it into R2-D2. They’re chased by First Order TIE fighters, and Poe lightspeed skips - reinforcing his recklessness.

Rey is trying to speak with the Jedi of the past, but fails. She has her interaction with Leia (“Nothing’s impossible…”) and goes off to her training course. She and Kylo Ren receive visions - for herself, she envisions herself as a Sith. She accidentally damages BB-8. She returns to the base and gives Leia the saber, feeling unworthy of it.

The Falcon returns and Rey argues with Poe for damaging the Falcon and BB-8, respectively. At the base, Poe confirms that Palpatine is alive and has the Final Order, the Resistance wonders about it. Rey has her discussion with Leia about the Sith Wayfinder. The heroes have a few small goodbyes and leave for Pasaana.

I perfectly understood as to what was going on. You just didn’t pay attention to the movie.

Except the characters DO react to Palpatine’s return. “The message CONFIRMS the worst.” Implying the Resistance DIDN’T believe Palpatine was alive at first. Then they’re surprised, afterwards asking all sorts of questions.

Also, Kylo Ren wanting to kill Palpatine IS his reaction. He is a threat to Ren’s power, and he’ll (referring to Ren) do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy for himself.

Yes they were skeptical, but the actual transmission from Palpatine (which itself is a questionable plot element but that’s for another debate) was received offscreen. It’s like if Luke found out about his parentage in the meantime between Empire and Return of the Jedi, with this revelation stated in the ROTJ crawl, and we only see Luke’s reaction to Yoda confirming that he is Vader’s son.

Same with Rebel spies in ANH, the First Order taking over the galaxy in TLJ, the First Order rising from the ashes in TFA, and the Empire kicking the Rebels out of their Yavin IV base in ESB.

THEY. AREN’T. IMPORTANT. TO. THE. STORY. OR. CHARACTERS. Same with the broadcast.

Cadavra said:

The puppet show (which is incredible) builds up how Luke’s sacrifice has inspired the galaxy, but the dialogue I’m talking about suggests that the galaxy hasn’t been inspired and remains as hopeless as ever.

Beyond that, there’s the simple logistical problem. Even if the galaxy is receptive now, that’s a LOT of people and ships to find, recruit, prepare, and coordinate in just a couple hours of “send[ing] out a call for help for anybody listening.”

There’s perfectly enough time between Ajan Kloss and Exegol.

EDIT: I’m referring to the scenes, not necessarily the locations themselves.

act on instinct said:

Everyone’s right, it’s really not a discussion over what technically does or doesn’t qualify as a “plot hole”, more-so plain lazy writing. It’s flimsy and unsatisfying, just because it’s not fundamentally broken at the level of its premise does not mean it wasn’t a rushed fumble. Throwing around the concept of inference doesn’t change anything, when people criticize Anakin’s line “I don’t like sand” they aren’t complaining that it doesn’t connect, it does, it’s still poorly written and executed.

Except inferences are there to clog up plot holes so the story would make sense. Why do you think J.J. had Kylo Ren be injured in TFA?

And “I don’t like sand” DOES make sense. He’s using it as a comparison to describe how nice and beautiful Naboo and Padmé are.

Secondly, Anakin grew up with an organization that kept telling him to repress his feelings and attachments, so of course “I don’t like sand” was gonna sound so awkward and lifeless. It reinforces how awful the old Jedi Order is.

Cadavra said:

It is absolutely not fundamental, because it doesn’t actually progress the plot or change the characters in any meaningful way

Of course it changes a character in a meaningful way — Palpatine himself, from dead and gone to alive and threatening. And his being back IS the plot. It’s THE challenge of Episode IX.

The “HOW Palpatine came back” isn’t important to the story - the fact that Palpatine SURVIVED is. Similarly, “HOW Rey beat Kylo Ren” (the injury) isn’t important, the fact that she DEFEATED him is.

“I am your father” had no set-up as well and, by your logic, makes ESB feel disjointed with ANH.

Not at all. First, even if Vader being Anakin hadn’t been decided when ANH was made, it’s still much clearer that there’s at least something more to the story than Obi-Wan first tells Luke—Obi-Wan looking visibly uncomfortable before he tells the lie

Actually (in just ANH alone), Obi-Wan was sad that Luke’s father - a good friend - was killed by Vader.

Owen telling Beru he’s afraid of Luke having too much of his father in him, etc.

I advise you to re-watch that scene. It’s Beru who says that, and Owen says that is what he’s afraid of. And even then, the scene is about Luke leaving and how Owen can’t accept that - this implies he didn’t want Luke’s father to leave Tatooine as well and avoid being a farmer like himself (Owen) and Beru.

The ESB and TLJ reveals enrich what came before; the TROS reveal muddies it.

Except Palpatine’s return DOES enrich the ST. He’s been the mastermind all this time from the start, pulling the strings behind Snoke, Kylo Ren, the First Order, Luke’s exile, the destruction of his Jedi Order and the bridging of Rey and Kylo Ren’s minds, and now the heroes have to stop the true threat before he DOES return. He will do whatever it takes to get what he wants, to take and rule over the galaxy and have all the power to himself.

Second, “betrayed and murdered” is not framed as some huge, shocking revelation, and in fact it’s positioned at roughly the same point in Luke’s story that “my parents will come back for me” is positioned in Rey’s. “I am your father” is the shocking mid-point twist of the OT, just as “they sold you for drinking money” is for the ST. They come at roughly the same points in their respective trilogies, upending the assumptions each hero started with. Luke has the rest of his trilogy to figure out how to handle this one challenging revelation; Rey in effect has to come to terms with two, one after another.

Just a point, Rey already deals with her parents believing she’s worthless in TLJ - she doesn’t care about them anymore, and now has the Resistance become her newfound family who’ll give her validation and belonging. (Of course, TRoS makes this pointless by having her parents turn out to have hid her for her safety from Palpatine, but you get my point.)

Second, “betrayed and murdered” is not framed as some huge, shocking revelation, and in fact it’s positioned at roughly the same point in Luke’s story that “my parents will come back for me” is positioned in Rey’s. “I am your father” is the shocking mid-point twist of the OT, just as “they sold you for drinking money” is for the ST. They come at roughly the same points in their respective trilogies, upending the assumptions each hero started with. Luke has the rest of his trilogy to figure out how to handle this one challenging revelation; Rey in effect has to come to terms with two, one after another.

That kind of upending is fine to do once in a three-part story; doing it multiple times with the exact same question for the exact same character within the same amount of story is just juvenile. It’s the sort of thing that gives comic books a reputation for convoluted long-term histories as new writers come in and mess with what their predecessors did, but stories with distinct beginnings, middles, and ends are supposed to be better than that.

That has nothing to do with Palpatine’s return itself, just with Rey’s arc.

On that topic, Rey DOESN’T deal with two (I’m assuming the other one is “They were nobody”) - she deals with ONE. When she says her parents were nobody, it meant they had no actual reason to care about her - they hated her, they threw her away like garbage, they thought she was WORTHLESS.

And “Rey Palpatine” doesn’t answer the question about her PARENTS’ identity, just reinforces her self-worth arc.

Palpatine is essentially dead until he rejuvenates himself with the dyad’s life energy

“Essentially dead”? Come on.

Yes, his body’s literally decaying and has to use a life support machine, and the Sith clearly haven’t returned by TRoS (“The Sith are reborn, the Jedi are dead!” “Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!”). The prophecy is that Anakin would destroy the Sith - and he did.

after that he is killed for good, fulfilling the prophecy once again.

Is it for good, though? There is absolutely nothing in the film itself that tells us why we should be confident this is the case.

I already explained why this is wrong.

And I see you’re fine with Luke failing to create the Jedi or stuff like that.

Huh? No I’m not. And I’m not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

Your comment.

In particular, having Kylo’s turn, Han’s death (which, let’s face it, would probably be a Harrison Ford requirement no matter what), and the fall of Luke’s academy all happen simultaneously onscreen, as the immediate precursors to the trilogy’s central war, alleviates The Force Awakens’ implication that Luke, Han, and Leia’s lives all sucked before we see them again.

I’m pointing out your hypocrisy, you dislike Palpatine’s undoing of the Chosen One yet literally reinforced the undoing of the OT heroes’ accomplishments.

Rey never killed Palpatine herself, she just reflected his lightning onto his face - he essentially committed suicide.

We could just as easily say that if Rey had swung when Palpatine wanted her to, it wouldn’t be her “killing Palpatine herself”; it would have been her lightsaber blade killing him. The tool is not the act, and does not change the intention or causality behind the act.

But Palpatine still essentially committed suicide, he was the one who started shooting lightning in the first place - if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have been killed. If the same thing happened between him and Vader in RotJ, he WOULDN’T have survived.

Palpatine has to be killed by another Force-sensitive in order for Sith essence transfer to even work in the first place. Why do you think he didn’t commit suicide or have a non-Force-sensitive kill him a long time ago?

Even if that’s how it was intended to work (which is not stated anywhere in the film), then presumably he could have transferred into one of the Knights of Ren.
Or an able-bodied Exegol cultist (presumably at least some were Force-sensitive). Or had his underlings scour the galaxy for healthy young Force-sensitives.

First off, it’s an INFERENCE. It doesn’t have to be spelled out to you.

Secondly, all the Knights of Ren are dead, there was no indication he knew any of them were Force-sensitive, and he certainly didn’t know where they were specifically at even before their deaths.

Thirdly, there was no indication any of his cultists were Force-sensitive.

Lastly, he targeted Rey and then Ben because she was his granddaughter (and he’s foreseen what she’d become) and Ben was the Chosen One’s grandson.

Knight of Kalee said:

But “I’m your father” works better because it happens at the middle part of a trilogy, and near the ending. This means the film (only considering Empire, not ANH) has dedicated runtime to set this up or foreshadow this in a way (e.g. Luke’s vision in the cave) and the twist accomplishes its goal as a climax and as a cliffhanger ending to get audiences excited for part III.

Palpatine’s return doesn’t land as well because it’s just dropped on the audience and expects the viewer to just get along with it

By your logic, same with the Death Star in ANH’s crawl (not considering the prequels or Rogue One). And “I am your father” was just dropped on the audience as well.

And it DOES land well, as I’ve explained in this comment above.

and the rushed pacing of TROS doesn’t make matters better.

I’ve watched TRoS TWICE, and I never understood how the pacing is rushed, exactly.

Even if it wasn’t spoiled in marketing, Palpatine’s comeback is stated right away in the opening crawl, meaning the audience is deprived of the chance to experience the revelation along with the characters. Seeing Luke’s reaction to his parentage reveal, coming from Vader himself, helps to set the mood of the scene, and we follow Luke pondering on this new knowledge the entire remainder of the film. He even acts as an audience surrogate by explicitly wondering why Ben Kenobi didn’t tell him the truth. Instead when Kylo lands on Exegol we are already expecting to see Palpatine, and it’s only the second scene. Of course it hasn’t been revealed how he survived or what his plans are yet, but since the revelation of his return is mentioned in passing as if it were an afterthought, it carries less weight than it should. It doesn’t help that the Palpatine retcon feels more random than the Vader retcon because it happens in the last film. There won’t be a direct sequel or an interquel trilogy to explain it (as far as we know the Skywalker saga is done). For comparison, a good chunk of Return of the Jedi is dedicated to confirm the plot twist (many viewers believed Vader was lying) and further develop the relationship between Vader and Luke and how it feeds Vader’s inner conflict. TROS is so rushed that the importance of such an array of reveals (Palpatine is back, and Rey is his granddaughter) doesn’t get enough time to be dwelled on or let the audience come to terms with it.

Except the characters DO react to Palpatine’s return. “The message CONFIRMS the worst.” Implying the Resistance DIDN’T believe Palpatine was alive at first. Then they’re surprised, afterwards asking all sorts of questions.

Also, Kylo Ren wanting to kill Palpatine IS his reaction. He is a threat to Ren’s power, and he’ll (referring to Ren) do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy for himself.

Is it possible to insert the same Imperial theme used for “I am your father” into Palpatine’s full, in-person reveal on Exegol, to signify that it’s meant to be the “I am your father” of our generation?

Cadavra said:

I am convinced Palpatine could have been resurrected for the Sequel Trilogy in an intelligent, narrative-serving way, but it would have required meeting four conditions:

1. Explain how in the film itself. Audiences saw him fall down a pit and explode in a moon-sized station that also exploded minutes later; if you’re going to tell audiences that wasn’t his end after all, then audiences are entitled to be satisfied that it makes sense before the credits roll. Passing off a question this fundamental to inference – in effect making audiences do homework simply to understand the story (whether in the form of reading supplemental material or piecing together a headcanon explanation themselves) – is just sloppy, lazy storytelling that disrespects the audience.

It is absolutely not fundamental, because it doesn’t actually progress the plot or change the characters in any meaningful way - hence why it’s an inference. Similarly, Kylo Ren losing to Rey because of his injury as well as Holdo believing there is a spy are left as story-fixing inferences because they don’t change anything about the plot or the characters in any meaningful way.

2. Reveal him early enough that he feels like he fits in the trilogy as a whole. My preference would be to at the very least hint at him in VII, but he would’ve had to be revealed no later than VIII. But by Episode IX, it was too late to do it without making the ST feel disjointed. Lucasfilm desperately needed an adult in the room to give Palpatine a hard veto, to tell Abrams and Terrio that the character had simply missed his window.

“I am your father” had no set-up as well and, by your logic, makes ESB feel disjointed with ANH.

3. Confront the Chosen One ramifications head-on. Like it or not, the prequels gave cosmic, borderline-theological implications to Palpatine’s death. If he never actually died or was only briefly dead, if the Sith survived and continued planning in the shadows just as they did before The Phantom Menace, then the prophecy was wrong in some major way. Either Anakin was not the Chosen One, there was no Chosen One, or the balance it foretold was far less significant than its prophesized status would lead one to believe.

Now, this does not mean it couldn’t or shouldn’t be done, but it does mean the story has to take responsibility for the fallout of the decision – and no, giving Anakin one “bring back the balance” line doesn’t cut it. The idea that balance is never permanent and must be continually maintained is a good one, but is suggested so fleetingly that the line simply doesn’t suffice to account for the sheer scale of the retcon.

But it didn’t have to be that way. A differently-structured ST could have not only navigated this minefield, but done so in a way that enriched the PT rather than undermining it, by making the question of prophecy and the old Jedi Order’s reliance on it one of the new trilogy’s major themes. The groundwork for such a development was already laid in Revenge of the Sith, what with Yoda himself warning that the prophecy “misread, could have been.”

Have Luke and Rey discuss and debate whether the prophecy was correct, whether Anakin was the Chosen One after all, what “balance of the Force” even means. Have Anakin return as a Force spirit in a larger role to add his insight to the discussions. Hell, you could’ve even had Palpatine play on the heroes’ doubts by claiming to have created the prophecy to goad the Jedi into training the instrument of their own destruction. All of this could have given the ST some much-needed philosophical depth by diving into the question of predestination vs. free will, and brought things full circle by highlighting a failing of the old Jedi Order from which Rey and her eventual students could learn.

Luke says in TLJ “For many years, there was balance… until I saw Ben.” Palpatine is essentially dead until he rejuvenates himself with the dyad’s life energy - only then does he undo the prophecy, and even after that he is killed for good, fulfilling the prophecy once again.

And I see you’re fine with Luke failing to create the Jedi or stuff like that.

4. Finally, when you have a character come back from the dead in a story that’s meant to be a true ending rather than another midway point, you have to make clear why he can’t just come back again. John’s amazing Force Ghost edit achieves this in an elegant way, but absolutely nothing in vanilla TROS does. There is nothing in the official film that would prevent future storytellers from revealing that Palpatine had another supply of clone bodies to escape into stashed on Korriban, Malachor, Vjun, Wayland, or some other Sith planet that hasn’t been made up yet. Hell, nothing in the film even rules out the possibility that Palpatine’s spirit is already lurking inside Rey!

Rey never killed Palpatine herself, she just reflected his lightning onto his face - he essentially committed suicide. Whereas Darth Vader threw him into the shaft and afterwards he transferred his spirit into a clone body.

Palpatine has to be killed by another Force-sensitive in order for Sith essence transfer to even work in the first place. Why do you think he didn’t commit suicide or have a non-Force-sensitive kill him a long time ago?

Rey was looking for that “importance” through her parents, themselves, not her other ancestors, so she’d “understand” why they abandoned her, like to protect her, for example - “showing” that they DID love her, they DID think she was WORTH SOMETHING.

“Nobody” doesn’t inherently mean no familial connection, it just means you have no importance in the grand scheme of things. And we don’t know her parents’ backstory in TLJ or what their lives were like before they were nobody - they could’ve become nobody after a series of unfortunate events. Oh wait, it’s exactly how it turns out in TRoS.

I feel like Rey would still rely on validation, even after her scene with Luke. In this trilogy up until the climax of her arc, she’s trying so hard to please other people including Han Solo so they’d see her heart and give her validation.

Knight of Kalee said:

TestingOutTheTest said:
On that topic, how he survived is explained, and this explanation relies on inference.

That’s the thing. It needs more than a “Somehow Palpatine returned” and some half-assed possibilities brought up immediately later for the audience to suspend disbelief. If it were for inference one could make endless headcanons or possible explanations to fill in the blanks, maybe with reasoned and solid arguments, but it doesn’t make up for the fact they didn’t explain how Palps survived in a satisfactory way that doesn’t require reading a novelisation or visual dictionary. And the audience deserves better than that.

Palpatine being brought back could have been a fine plot development but for another sequel trilogy that set up his looming presence accordingly. The way they included him is an ass pull, no matter how many retcons they introduce.

“I am your father” was an ass-pull as well. Set-up is absolutely not a requirement in storytelling.

In fact, both having no set-up is exactly the reason why both of them worked (it’s just one was ruined by trailers and promotional material). Had there been no confirmation or indication from Lucasfilm of Palpatine’s return up until we walk into the theater and the movie plays, the name-drop in the crawl would’ve been the “I am your father” of our generation (aside from Thanos’ victory in Infinity War).

And it is more than a “Somehow, Palpatine returned” as well as “Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew.” It is an inference from the movie. Palps’ plan is to possess Kylo Ren/Rey because his body is rotting and failing and has to be supported by a life support machine. He explicitly states he’d died before, and we see his physical body explode in RotJ. We see he can create lifeforms, including Snoke, and his current body is identical to his original - it’s a “clone”.

And how is the inferred explanation not satisfying, exactly? It raises the stakes for Rey and/or Kylo Ren - will they be possessed, or no? Will Palpatine be back in full form, finally abandoning his rotting failure of a clone body, or no?

It’s clear in ANH Leia didn’t like Chewie, she even called him a “walking carpet”.

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

That is clearly what Rey believes at the time. If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories. Rey has been clinging to the idea that they will come back for her. Again, very typical for someone who has been abandoned. Kylo twists her memories (he was in her mind searching for the map so he likely picked up a lot more that he later found useful). He amplifies that feeling that although she hopes her parents will come back, she doesn’t know of a good reason why they left her in the first place. He is trying to pursuade her to join him and he is the one saying her parents were junk traders, nobodies, that Rey had no place in the story, that they sold her off for drinking money and are dead in a poppers grave in the Jakku desert. Rey said they were nobodies, but Kylo filled in the rest. Probably all things she had though at some point, but none of it true.

I just watched the scene and caught something so many have missed. Here Kylo is saying let the old die while at the same time he is doing exactly what we have seen every Sith do, try to turn their opponent and make them their apprentice/partner. I find it historical that here is his saying he wants to break with the past while repeating the past. The irony is beautiful.

I’ll give you a few comparison examples or something like these, to hammer my Rey pointer in.

Example 1.

You’ve probably seen Finding Nemo. Coral is killed by the barracuda and this heavily affects Marlin, he becomes overprotective of his son Nemo to make sure he doesn’t end up in danger, to avoid facing the same trauma went through when losing Coral.

Imagine if the third movie came out and blatantly revealed to us that (surprise!) Coral never actually died in the first place. This would undermine the entire first movie, including Marlin’s character arc - especially since it was the thing that made his arc necessary in the first place.

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but bringing back Coral DOESN’T undermine Finding Nemo, because we NEVER saw the barracuda eat Coral!”, then I don’t know what to say.

Yeah, it doesn’t change the initial trauma or reaction to it. People have been writing that sort of story as long as stories have been told.

Example 2.

Imagine if Return of the Jedi revealed that Darth Vader was lying to Luke about his father’s identity in Empire. That would undermine the point of “I am your father…”, since it was there for this reason: “How is Luke going to deal with the revelation of Darth Vader being his father?”

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but Darth Vader lying DOESN’T undermine Empire, because we had no reason to believe he was telling the truth!”, then I don’t know what to say.

That is exactly what I am saying. Perhaps you have forgotten the three years of endless debate on whether or not he was telling the truth.

See my point?

Also, as the other user stated, Rey is the one who admits her parents were nobody, not Kylo. He gets her into admitting the truth she has hidden away, then Rey herself admits they were nobody. He’s just elaborating or adding onto what it meant.

And there was absolutely no indication that “Rey’s parents were nobody” or anything else I said about that was otherwise in The Last Jedi itself.

If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories.

Star Wars is a fictional universe. It doesn’t have to follow reality. (You might see it as ironic since it came from me, who detailed on how Rey has a core belief of self-worthlessness, but then, again, Star Wars picks up on some things from reality and doesn’t at times.)

In TLJ we have Kylo badgering Rey, telling her she remembers and she admits they were nobody (that is as far as Rey went, but Kylo went on to describe a scenario that we have no verification of). When we pick of the conversation in TROS, Kylo says that Rey’s parents were nobody because they wanted to be. They sold her to protect her. The only part of the TLJ conversation that was negated were the lies Kylo told (or perhaps they were what Rey had suspected or what Unkar Plutt had told her) that went beyond nobody. Nobody was confirmed in TROS.

But you really don’t get deeper story telling if you get stuck on what seems true in one chapter cannot be countered later. That sort of reversal is a major part of story telling. Characters actions revolve around what they believe to be true. When they learn it is not true, they adjust accordingly. We already have that with Ben telling Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. Luke’s actions up until that reveal in TESB are based on that, but his actions after that are based on the new information. And we already know that he believes Vader, but he confirms it with Yoda. And yet we have that same thing play out with Rey’s parentage and it is shocking and horrible and it reconns everything that came before. Nonsense. It is just a tool of story telling. One that has happened in real life so often that we know how the human brain reacts to such things.

Face it, TROS doesn’t contradict a word of TLJ that comes from a trusted source. Not a word. It only contradicts what Kylo was saying to convince Rey to join him (which didn’t even work).

I’m saying Rey’s parents being bad people was the truth (from a storytelling perspective) or else her arc in TLJ of moving past her awful, shitty parents would be f%$kin’ pointless - which is what happens in TRoS anyways.

Cadavra said:

Here’s a crazy thought for trying to make the Rey Palpatine reveal feel less like a contradiction that comes out of nowhere in TROS: what about cutting the “they were nobody” reveal out of TLJ?

I don’t know how well this could be executed, but maybe it would be possible to have Rey cut Kylo off before he has a chance to tell her, going from him teasing the truth straight to Rey reaching for the lightsaber? If this could be pulled off, viewers would come away from that scene thinking there still is an answer yet to be revealed, but it’s something so horrible that Rey can’t bear to face it at that point. Then the “your his granddaughter” scene would be a payoff worthy of such fears rather than a retcon undermining a previous revelation that had weight and significance all its own.

Disclaimer: personally I’m firmly in the Rey Nobody camp. But this idea popped into my head during a brainstorming kick, so I figured I’d toss it out for consideration, just in case it can help the Rey Palpatine concept be the best it can be.

Rey means “They were nobody” in the sense that her parents didn’t actually have any reason to abandon her, they didn’t love her or care for her, they thought she was worthless. And she moves past her parents in TLJ because of this. And just because her parents were nobody, doesn’t mean her other ancestors were.

Wait, Rey isn’t relying on validation in your TRoS novel edit unlike in the actual film?

PALPATINE: You stand no chance against the true, unlimited power of the Sith. You are just a worthless, pathetic, pitiful scavenger! You’re nothing! (NOTE: The “You’re” is intentional.)

REY: I am more than that. I’m… [pulls in the Skywalker saber into her hand and grasps it - she finally feels worthy] a Jedi!

What I mean by the “definitive” stuff is that they’re intended to be a better/improved version of the movie.

I feel like fan edits are intended to be a “definitive version” of the actual movie.

Also, it doesn’t help when such views are either presented as “fact” and other views are wrong or “they don’t understand.”

People refute criticisms of commonly criticized films all the time. I’m doing the same with TRoS.

BrotherOfSasquatch said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

BrotherOfSasquatch said:

DZ-330 said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

So… refuting criticisms of a movie you guys don’t like is trolling or bullshitting?

wonders if the mods are watching so he can be blocked from this thread

JJ needs to take the L and go.

You know, I’m just going to keep on calling you that because of how much it seems to bug you.

Rian!

Anakin Starkiller said:

I agree with the general sentiment, but I still think Palpatine’s survival would’ve worked best as TLJ’s cliffhanger.

I pointed out that it’d undermine its message of hope.

It does not work like “I am your father” because it was revealed in a trailer.

I’m saying that in the mindset you don’t watch the trailers and only the actual movies without any information. And I address this in the comment itself.

BrotherOfSasquatch said:

DZ-330 said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

So… refuting criticisms of a movie you guys don’t like is trolling or bullshitting?

wonders if the mods are watching so he can be blocked from this thread

JJ Rian Johnson needs to take the L and go.

It’s great.

Bringing back Palpatine ties all nine Skywalker saga movies together as one cohesive story and makes The Rise of Skywalker feel like an actual series finale to three trilogies rather than an ending to just one trilogy. He’s so important to the saga, and had he not been included as the final villain, then it’d feel like something’s missing. We have more of an established connection with him than with Plagueis or Snoke or the Vong or even Maul (yes, Lucas planned on including Maul in his sequel trilogy).

It also pays off his desire for immortality in Revenge of the Sith, only for him to suffer in a clone body that is rotting due to him being so shitty at making clones - a fate worse than death.

On that topic, how he survived is explained, and this explanation relies on inference.

It is reinforced throughout the film that he has the ability to transfer his spirit to different bodies upon his killing at the hand of another Force-sensitive, to the point where his main motivation is that he intends to goad Rey into killing him, allowing his spirit to leave his failing body and possess her body if she were to succeed; so, one can infer Palpatine had transferred his spirit to this one specific body shortly after Vader killed his original one in Return of the Jedi.

The body his spirit is possessing is also one he manufactured himself — basically a “clone” body, or at least a body that is designed to resemble his original one, it is clearly established he can create lifeforms, he even created Snoke to train Kylo Ren; his original body was atomized in Return of the Jedi, and it is established he can transfer his spirit to another body after his current one is killed at the hands of another Force-sensitive, not to mention how he explains to Kylo Ren that “[he] has died before…” — confirming his original body did die in Return of the Jedi.

And him surviving does not invalidate Anakin’s arc and sacrifice, because he only did it to save Luke, and even then it allowed him to become the legend he was and to inspire hope across the galaxy by facing down the whole First Order on Crait, hence why the civilians of the galaxy immediately go with Lando to Exegol.

Also, him still being alive did not need any set-up. In the same way, in The Empire Strikes Back it was revealed that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker’s father and yet it went on to become one of the most beloved reveals in popular culture, despite having no real set-up or foreshadowing up until this point. I sense hypocrisy among those who use this particular criticism.

As a guy who likes and defends both the prequel and sequel trilogies (yes, we exist!), I’m not counting the prequels in this… part, as I am referring to in the context of the original trilogy alone and framing it as though it had just come out in theaters in 1980.

Even then, I am glad there was no set-up or foreshadowing in The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi for Palpatine’s return in The Rise of Skywalker.

The whole point of The Last Jedi is that everything is hopeless with the First Order in charge, until Luke Skywalker — the legend, the man who saw good in Darth Vader and turned him back to the light — shows up to save the day and inspires the galaxy, igniting a spark of hope that the First Order is going to be defeated, one day.

As stated, the scene with Temiri Blagg at the end of The Last Jedi drives this point home; he, like the other children at Canto Bight, are slaves, but, despite that, he still has a sense of hope — their enslavers represent the First Order and how they are in charge of the galaxy, and the children represent the galaxy itself… and us, the audience —, the final shot of the film is literally him looking off to the stars with hope.

If J.J. Abrams or Rian Johnson foreshadowed Palpatine’s return in The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi, it would take that away, because, now, we would be asking ourselves, “Why should we be hopeful that the First Order will be defeated when Palpatine is just going to come back and fuck everything up?”

In fact… the reveal that Palpatine is still alive in The Rise of Skywalker is literally the “I am your father…” of our generation (aside from Thanos’ victory in Avengers: Infinity War), because no one had any reason to believe that one of the greatest and most iconic villains in cinema is still alive — similarly, no one had any reason to believe that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker’s father after A New Hope first came out. It’s just that the trailers ruined all of this.

Even then, the possibility of his return was (retroactively) set up in the opera scene in Revenge of the Sith, when Anakin asks him if it is possible to “learn this power,” obviously referring to Plagueis’ desire to keep himself alive, and Palpatine responds, “Not from a Jedi,” as he grins at us and a bit of dramatic music begins playing — implying he does know the secret to cheating death.