TestingOutTheTest

Burbin said:

sherlockpotter said:

Again, I like what you’re going for; I just don’t think the film shows it in any meaningful capacity. Especially “He’s willing to gamble with the devil” - that would have been so cool! But as the film never really does much with the idea of Kylo double crossing Palpatine aside from one or two throwaway lines. There’s no scene where Rey wonders about Kylo’s loyalties, or where Kylo openly goes against orders…It’s all played very straight. He says he’ll help Palpatine, and then he tells Rey he won’t. How compelling. But the key is, none of it changes how Rey sees Kylo at all, or how the audience sees Kylo at all. So any potential nuance or intrigue is nullified.

Oh yeah, in the theatrical version Palpatine just feels like a Snoke replacement so that Kylo regresses into “overturning his Master to take his place” mode like TLJ never happened and becoming the Supreme Leader meant nothing, him telling Rey he has “other plans” rings hollow.

But with these changes to the crawl, and removing his interest in “taking the thone”, the point of focus would now be on the conference scene where they talk about the how the fleet will turn the FO into a true Empire and increase their resources ten thousand fold. Since from the crawl we now know the FO is struggling with the growing uprising and Kylo’s looking to increase it’s power, we can now see this as Kylo’s main interest. He even says on that scene “prepare to crush any worlds that defy us”, so it’s not like this is something we’re completely making up, just giving it the focus it deserved.

And by removing Kylo’s interest in the throne, you remove his apparent allegiance to the Sith. I prefer the implication that he is just flat out against Palpatine’s plans and is just trying to use him (taking a gamble by confronting him and pretending to do his bidding). It feels more in line with the Kylo from TLJ, after all Palpatine is basically a symbol for resurrecting the past, the opposite of Kylo. That’s also why I really liked your change to Kylo’s line to Rey “we can stop Palpatine”, which aids in feeling like Kylo really has “other plans” of his own.

You really think that just because something is mentioned in the movie and has no evidence refuting it, doesn’t mean it’s automatically true? A fact is a fact. There’s nothing contradicting Kylo’s intentions to kill Palps.

Also, “We’ll take the throne” could be interpreted as Rey and Kylo ruling together in general, as he once proposed in TLJ. And there’s no indication he knew about the Sith throne specifically.

To further my point, we’re supposed to believe that Holdo is dooming the Resistance in some way, and Poe thinks he’s doing the right thing but got the Resistance into even more trouble. Remember when Poe is upset about the transports (“You’re not just a coward, you’re a traitor!”), among other examples?

Regarding the spy inference. I would recommend saving it until after Holdo is revealed to be doing the right thing and that Poe was just impulsive. After all, we’re supposed to side with Poe and be suspicious of her until otherwise.

Also, it should be referenced that the First Order discovered their base on D’Qar and planned to fire Starkiller onto it (“They’re charging the weapon, again. Our system is the next target…”) to further reinforce the spy thing.

I don’t see how it’s cheapening. If anything, it’s surprising because 1) Palps finally accomplished in his desire to cheat death, as hinted at in RotS 2) he’s space Satan 3) we were shown who he was and what he could do throughout the saga — he is the Dark Lord of the Sith who is a mastermind, an orchestrator, a liar and master manipulator willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy, and now the heroes have to face the man who started it all.

I feel like Palps’ reveal should remain in the crawl, this time putting a halt to TLJ’s theme of hope in the beginning of the movie.

SparkySywer said:

I think TestingOutTheTest is referring to something I said, like, a month ago about TRoS and ESB’s reveals. And it’s a fair enough point for Palpatine’s return in a sense, you can look back at RotS, TFA, and TLJ after the fact and read foreshadowing into them even when it was never there. But foreshadowing alone isn’t really enough.

I wouldn’t even really call the example of Ben’s Hut scene foreshadowing, it’s more that it’s a detail which makes more sense after the twist than it did before. Stuff like that sells a twist. Stuff that either makes more sense, or only makes sense after a twist. Stuff that takes on a new, deeper meaning after the twist. Stuff that you look back on and see the twist in.

Not to use the some of the same examples again, but (avoiding spoilers for movies people haven’t seen…) Oh Dae-Su’s captivity doesn’t make a whole lot of sense… until it does. The time dilation aspect of Planet of the Apes isn’t all that relevant… until it is. Bruce Willis’s wife’s behavior seems like a detour from the main focus of the story… but it’s not. Adam being in Nerv’s basement is a blatant contradiction of the facts we know… because that’s not really what’s going on.

Those are the kinds of clues you need leading up to a twist. Foreshadowing is great and all, especially on rewatch once you know the twist, or to flex if you’re an author who’s sold a convincing twist. But it doesn’t actually sell the twist.

I listed the clues already, such as Palpatine’s influence on Snoke’s personality and the guards’ color scheme, for example. It screams, “Palpatine has some sort of influence!” You’d think those’re rehashes of the OT (and they still are to this day), but they make more scene with Palpatine back.

A reveal doesn’t have to be a plot twist. (Yeah, I changed my mind about that Palps’ return is a plot twist, but… yeah.)

Bad twists fail to sell themselves to an audience when they aren’t really rooted in what’s come before. They’re just random new information which changes nothing (which is ironic). Like in Now You See Me.

The surprise of Palps’ return works because he’s been out there all this time, pulling the strings and trying so hard to take over the galaxy for the past thirty years. It puts a halt to TLJ’s theme of hope. And now, in the climax of the whole saga, the heroes are going to have to fight the man who started everything.

They could have had every single screen in TFA and TLJ flash “Palpatine will return in Episode 9” in Aurebesh, I doubt it would help sell the reveal to many people. Because how does Palpatine returning and being Rey’s grandfather really have anything to do with the story of TFA and TLJ?

By that logic, what does Thanos taking the Infinity Gauntlet and saying, “Fine, I’ll do it myself,” have anything to do with Age of Ultron? Same with other set-ups in the MCU?

Nothing about TRoS really flows forward from TLJ. Rey ends TLJ moving on from placing so much importance on her family to her and the movie placing tons and tons of importance on her family in TRoS. TLJ ends setting up Kylo Ren as the Supreme Leader who’s going to be in conflict with Hux, but to say Kylo Ren is playing second fiddle in TRoS, that alone is a pretty charitable interpretation when he’s even being upstaged by Pryde. The conflict with Hux is there, but it’s inconsequential and I wholeheartedly believe it’s only there to dodge criticism. If it weren’t for “I want Kylo Ren to lose” becoming a meme, I think people would forget Hux was even in this movie.

Every loose thread from TLJ is dropped and ignored in TRoS for an entirely new story, and like I said, the reason a lot of people don’t buy Palpatine’s role in TRoS is because it’s not a twist, it’s a premise for an entirely new story which tries to sell itself as the completion of an old one.

Loose threads? I can agree with “See you around, kid,” but Luke inspiring hope does get a payoff - hence why the Resistance has more members, and why the galaxy immediately follows Lando to Exegol. I don’t remember any other loose threads in TLJ.

I can also agree with Hux’s storyline feeling anti-climactic. Regarding Rey’s family, even if you ignore the reveal that her parents hid her for her safety, she doesn’t place importance onto Palps being her grandfather - as I’ve told you already, she’s scared of that because of what it means to her.

Here is my pitch for an opening crawl:

The flame of hope burns! Following the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker on Crait, the daring Resistance has been reborn. The diabolical First Order, facing insurrection on a thousand worlds, is teetering on the edge.

But the dead speak! The galaxy has received a mysterious broadcast, a threat of revenge in the voice of the late PALPATINE.

Determined to destroy this threat to his declining power, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren is chasing whispers of an ARTIFACT that could lead him to the demise of the phantom menace…

It starts off by reminding us that it’s a sequel to TLJ and setting up the idea the actual movie establishes that the First Order is not doing so well post-TLJ, but we’re suddenly halted when the crawl reveals Palps is alive and has been planning his return/revenge.

It merges the respective ending sentences from TRoS and Ascendant while referencing TPM as I think that reference makes more sense than the “phantom Emperor”…

Thoughts?

I mostly mentioned that for the people who take issue with it.

Storytelling comes first, not fan service/pandering to the fans.

There are multiple pages beforehand devoted to what Leia learned from Luke about the Force in her training.

The Force and telekinesis are instinctual.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yeah I like it a lot. It’s worth noting that is actually canon (as much as I hate to admit it). I hate the idea that nobody showed up to Crait because all the communication lines were jammed by the FO, but that’s the official answer. Might as well have it referenced in the crawl to a lesser extent.

Yes, the point of that in the movie was to reinforce that everything was hopeless with the FO in charge until Luke showed up.

It’s unintended retroactive foreshadowing. That’s my point.

Nah, I’m not really that skilled in editing. Even then, I’m just a kid (read: teen) living with my family, and I also don’t think I have the… mental capacity or intelligence (not that I’m mentally retarded) to create such film-tier edits.

Has anyone tried adding the red nebula and/or Exegol to the Death Star scene in RotS?

Am I the only one who imagines the graffiti would be orange?

How about: “Legend describes it as a lost Sith world…” or something like that?

sherlockpotter said:

My original worry with some of the graffiti was that it was going to be too subtle for casual audience members to catch; but I think it would actually work perfectly if we can iron out the rest of the audio for this sequence. More observant viewers would be able to see that Kijimi was inspired by Luke by looking at the graffiti, and that then quietly foreshadows the moment with Poe later where it comes to the forefront; but the point of all of our additions is still made clear for those yuppies who won’t pick up on little clues like that. Kind of an /r/MovieDetails moment.

I still feel like it should be a surprise, so at first we’d feel hopeless w/ Poe and when we do get to that Zorii scene we begin to feel hopeful with Poe at the same time. You know, kind of like the Yoda reveal in ESB (before the prequels)?

NeverarGreat said:

JackNapier said:

It is also the first Disney film to not require a man to save the day.

Alice in Wonderland, Mulan, Lilo & Stitch, Brave, and Frozen would all like a word.

Stitch and Mushu are male and yet they helped out their female protagonist friends, respectively.

Hal 9000 said:

Master Lawdog said:

Is the VFX shot of Darth Nihilus as a background statue behind Kylo Ren being used in this edit?

If someone can send it to me it will be.

And I agree, Test: If Kijimi is to he shown rioting, we shouldn’t really see it until that moment.

I’m still not totally sold on using the idea overall. It’s great, and could totally have been done well while making the movie. I’m just still a little skeptical of doing it via fan editing in a way that would’ve worked completely if projected in theaters for real.

The graffiti? Or sherlock’s edit of the Poe and Zorri scene?

EDIT: Happy 13,000th comment on this thread!

Regarding the Kijimi rebellion stuff. I think the graffiti shouldn’t be there. Not that I’m against the Kijimi rebellion idea, but I think it should be a surprise for Poe and us during his conversation with Zorii — we’d feel hopeless with Poe, and when Zorii convinces him otherwise… we’d begin to feel hopeful alongside Poe.

I really liked that J.J. brought back Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker, and I thought it was an absolutely necessary thing to do.

By bringing him back, it ties all nine Skywalker saga movies together as one cohesive, overarching story and makes The Rise of Skywalker feel like an actual series finale to the saga, it feels like there really is one overarching villain for the saga rather than just killing him off for good in Return of the Jedi and then having Kylo Ren be the villain in the last trilogy.

He is so important to the saga, and had he not been included as the final villain of the trilogy, and, by extension, the saga, then it would’ve felt like something was missing. We have more of an established connection with him over the first six films than with Kylo Ren or Snoke or Plagueis or the Yuuzhan Vong from Legends or Maul.

Even J.J. Abrams, director of both The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker, agreed that, “…when you look at this as nine chapters of a story, perhaps the weirder thing would be if Palpatine didn’t return. You just look at what he talks about, who he is, how important he is, what the story is — strangely, his absence entirely from the third trilogy would be conspicuous.”

His return is also a metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one, something really impressive as a huge part of Star Wars deals with themes of the past.

It is also worth noting that his return pays off his interest in immortality as hinted at in Revenge of the Sith, only for his spirit to be trapped in a deteriorating clone as he is very much horrible at making clones — a fate worse than death.

It also works because we were shown who he was and what he could do throughout the saga — he is the Dark Lord of the Sith who is a mastermind, an orchestrator, a liar and master manipulator willing to do whatever it takes to take over the galaxy. He’s literally played both sides during the prequels, and lured the Rebels into a trap in Return of the Jedi.

Also, what adds to the finality of his return is that, in Star Wars, he is the embodiment of pure evil, he is essentially Satan, but in space. He cares about no one but himself, he made Anakin lose everything he loved and put him into a suit of hell for twenty-three years. Even in just Return of the Jedi, he spews out his physical hatred towards Luke via Force lightning and this is very obvious via acting and facial expressions.

Many point out that it invalidates Anakin’s redemption in Return of the Jedi, but it doesn’t, really. He only killed Palpatine to save Luke, his last remaining loved one, not necessarily to save the galaxy, topple the Empire or fulfill the prophecy as the Chosen One — his destiny as the Chosen One was merely there in the prequels to put in some additional weight to his fall.

Anakin could’ve thrown Palpatine into a ball pit and his sacrifice would still retain the same meaning — he did it to save his son. Luke dying ten minutes afterwards from some kind of disease or cancer would’ve made Anakin’s sacrifice all for nothing. His motivations were so obvious, just by watching the scene alone in Return of the Jedi.

I’ve seen some counter this by pointing out that Luke died anyways in The Last Jedi, but guess what? His sacrifice inspired the galaxy in a time of hopelessness, even children enslaved by some of the worst, and it’s also why the Resistance has more members in The Rise of Skywalker than at the end of The Last Jedi, and certainly why the galaxy’s citizens followed Lando to Exegol.

Furthermore, as stated, it gave Palpatine a fate worse than death — because he is so horrible at making clones, let alone any lifeform, his spirit is trapped in a deteriorating clone. Of course, he rejuvenates himself anyways, but he clearly hadn’t returned to the wider, known galaxy and Rey defeated him shortly afterwards.

Not to mention that Anakin did bring balance to the Force. He confirms himself that he did bring balance to the Force — he tells Rey to “bring back the balance, as [he] did.” Furthermore, Luke mentions in The Last Jedi that, “For many years there was balance, until I saw Ben.”

Critics also act like there was no explanation for how he is still alive after blowing up in a reactor shaft shortly before the second Death Star blew up, except he straight-up confirms he’s died before, and his main motivation is literally to possess Rey if she were to kill him in anger so he wouldn’t be trapped in that shitshow of a clone. Put two and two together, and one can infer that he transferred his spirit to this clone after Darth Vader killed him in anger.

The final argument I’ll be addressing is his apparent “lack of set-up or foreshadowing”.

The whole point of The Last Jedi is that everything is hopeless with the First Order in charge, until Luke Skywalker — the legend, the man who saw good in Darth Vader and turned him back to the light — shows up to save the day and inspires the galaxy, igniting a spark of hope that the First Order is going to be defeated, one day.

The scene with Temiri Blagg at the end of The Last Jedi drives this point home; he, like the other children at Canto Bight, are slaves, but, despite that, he still has a sense of hope — their enslavers represent the First Order and how they are in charge of the galaxy, and the children represent the galaxy itself… and us, the audience —, the final shot of the film is literally him looking off to the stars with hope.

If J.J. Abrams or Rian Johnson foreshadowed Palpatine’s return in The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi, it would take that away, because, now, we would be asking ourselves, “Why should we be hopeful that the First Order will be defeated when Palpatine is just going to come back and fuck everything up?”

Even then, in the way “I am your father…” in The Empire Strikes Back was “foreshadowed” by Obi-Wan being emotional before telling Luke what happened to his father in A New Hope, the same applies to Palpatine’s return:

• During the opera scene in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin asks him if it is possible to “learn this power,” obviously referring to Plagueis’ desire to keep himself alive, and Palpatine responds, “Not from a Jedi,” as he grins at us and dramatic music begins to play as the scene cuts away — he implies he does know how to cheat his own death.

• Most infamously, “Emperor’s Theme” is played very prominently when Snoke mind-probes Rey in The Last Jedi. Similarly, vocals from the opera music from Revenge of the Sith play during the “awakening” scene with Snoke and Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens, something people initially interpreted as potential foreshadowing for Snoke being Plagueis.

• Kylo Ren asks Vader’s helmet to show him the “power of the darkness” again, implying this has happened before, at least by some sort of supernatural force. It could initially be interpreted as Snoke, but it does get some payoff in The Rise of Skywalker: “I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head.”

• Snoke acts very similar to Palpatine and even repeats his dialogue in The Last Jedi: “Welcome, young Skywalker. I have been expecting you.” “Young Rey. Welcome.” “It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator.” “It was I who bridged your minds.” Obviously, Palpatine would want Snoke to be a copy of himself.

• Even Snoke’s guards share the exact color scheme with Palpatine’s guards. Palpatine would very much want both sets of guards to look similar to each other in terms of color scheme, and he still uses red-colored guards in The Rise of Skywalker.

Over, and out.

I feel like you initially responded to my comment about objectivity and subjectivity being two different sides to art.

I… don’t know what you’re asking…?

One idea I’ve seen on Reddit (don’t remember who it’s from, though) is putting in Duel of the Fates during Ben’s fight with the Knights of Ren. I think it’s a great idea; in TPM as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting Maul for the Chosen One’s future, here in TRoS Ben is fighting his way through for Rey’s fate. Thoughts?

Add Palpatine’s spinny-scream from ROTS as he explodes (Cinefy idea)

I think the better idea would be putting in his death scream from RotJ and then putting in the second half of the spinny-scream and re-pitching it to match with the RotJ would be/sound more… right. Yeah, you get the point. Thoughts?

I can only think of one X-wing pilot that would be crazy enough to pull up alone to a First Order fleet like that.

That was build-up to us being re-introduced to him as a character.