TServo2049

The new shot looks great, the dewback looked like it was matted in in the "before."

While trying to determine the font in the MPAA logo, I popped in the JSC V8. If I turn up saturation, I can notice the drop shadow (though even here, there's a load of bleeding, so it still looks like a diffuse glowy blob). But it's not like the GOUT where the grain removal softened the text to all heck - I can see the edges on the text! Just interesting to note...

Anyway, I also noticed that the proportions of "DOLBY SYSTEM" and the box around it are kind of off on the re-creation. What happened was, the logo Laserschwert found online wasn't totally accurate to the one used onscreen in the movie - I noticed the slightly inaccurate Dolby symbol already, but not the text part. As I said, don't change the font, the version of Eurostile that is available for computers has a narrower O than the one used here. But the text should be smaller, and the box around it should be of the same thickness as the text. Like this:

Also, the placement of the fade-out; since you're trying to match the GOUT framing/timing, the fade should start about a little less than halfway between when the copyright leaves frame and when "Ownership" starts to leave frame, and should the fade should end just as "applicable" leaves frame.

For some reason, the fade-out occurs earlier and is quicker on the pre-'93 releases. No idea why...this would mean that the GOUT is a THIRD credit roll (a variation of the revised one that's on the pre-'93 video releases, the Starkiller bootleg and Puggo Krig - I think the timing of the fade-out is the only difference).

Still looking for the MPAA font, haven't found it yet, but I think I might be getting closer. When I find anything else, I'll let you guys know.

Cool, memories are flooding back of seeing this in front of Independence Day. Ah, when the SE seemed like a good idea, before we all realized that George was serious about suppressing the original versions. It was Star Wars on the big screen, how could we refuse that?

Am I insane, or was there a *very early* SE teaser which just had the SW logo slowly zooming up on a black screen and some text or something? No music or anything. I swear I saw just such a teaser at the front of something around Christmas '95 (Jumanji?). I've found no mention of it, even from back then...

Laserschwert said:

All right then, I'll re-work them once more, trying to fix any errors that are still there... hyphens, quotation marks and the new starfield. And while we're at "See Threepio", isn't the "O" in "C3PO" supposed to be a "0" (zero)? I've copy/pasted the credits from that BlueHarvest-site I've linked to above, and it already had a lot of typos, so this might be one of the more difficult to tell ones.

No, it's an O. It matches the capital O in "Organa," "Obi-Wan" and "Owen."

As for the fonts, yeah, I've used Century Gothic for the Dolby logo's texts, so thanks for the correct one, I'll change it :-) Also I guess I'll just rebuild the "DOLBY SYSTEM" line with something like Eurostile, as I just took a Google image for that.

No, the "DOLBY SYSTEM" font is accurate, it looks perfect. The commercially available version of Eurostile has a narrower "O" than the version used in the original Dolby logo. It's just the text above and below that was wrong.

Regarding the MPAA-font... no idea... it's way too small to tell. I think I'll try a font that's closer to this:

Not close enough IMO. Let me look at a fullscreen release, it has more vertical resolution. Hold off on it until then.

Oh, yet another thing I noticed. In the Dolby logo, the font you used for "Making Films Sound Better" / "Noise Reduction - High Fidelity" is incorrect. It's actually ITC Avant Garde Gothic Standard Demi Bold - I can tell because the legs of the M in the original are standing straight up, while the font you used (Century Gothic?) has them diagonal.

The font in the MPAA logo is also inaccurate, but I can't figure out what the actual font is...

CatBus, you're right. With all the analysis I did, even I didn't notice that. *facepalm*

Quotation marks are already the correct curlicues - I was the one who noticed that the leading quote marks in John "D" needed to be rotated 180 degrees.

Laserschwert, the fixed credits look great. Just one last thing - you still didn't remove the hyphen from "See-Threepio". As I pointed out before, it's "See Threepio" in the original.

Everything else looks on the nose, right down to the "producers wish to thank" notice being too far over to the right. :)

Here's another fullscreen transfer of the flyover shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpTwiI0lMc

That's right: In Spain, the original rental video release had the 1977 flyover.

However, this 1990 retail copy shows that later releases cut the Spanish crawl into the same PAL transfer you showed (notice the crossfade from 1977 to 1981 before the pan-down):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETli-fE7Ha4

I wonder if even the first release just cut the foreign crawls, credits and unsubtitled Greedo scene into the existing PAL masters (as in at least some of the French and German releases).I know that on the pre-THX French and German widescreen LDs, the Greedo scene is very dark with a blue-purple cast.

Of course, none of this really has to do with HBO...:)

Dracula '79: another film shot by Gil Taylor that's had its colors screwed up on re-releases...:)

Did you get the message about the fade-out in time? Sometimes, new replies show up while I'm making edits to my posts...

Yes, as I was making my single image of the credits, I did notice the warp effect (probably lens distortion similar to that in the SW logo pullback and crawl). At that point I gave up on that idea.

I agree that the warping doesn't need to be simulated. I understand that you were trying to get it to sync up, I'd just suggest trying to make it look a little less obvious if at all possible...

And yes, the MPAA logo does fade out midway. In the "opening day" credit roll, it fades out even earlier, and a little faster too. In both cases, original prints had the MPAA rating graphic where video releases have a long period of black.

Laserschwert, I just modified my last post to add the other errors and inaccuracies I spotted. Scroll up and look them over.

Right now, I'm going to sync them up and A/B compare them to the end, then I'll make those long composite images.

Wow, they sync up darn well (except that yours has the MPAA logo scroll all the way up - I'm assuming that fade will be the last thing you put in.)

Laserschwert, these look great. However, to help you make them look as accurate as possible, I'm going to compare your recreation against the real ones and look for errors. I'm not going to nitpick little kerning and spacing issues, but I am going to point out the prominent inaccuracies.

Right now, I see that you put commas after the companies listed for Additional Optical Effects - this is inaccurate, none of them had commas in the original.

Here are the other errors I could find:

Ben Burtt's credit should be "Special Dialogue & Sound Effects", not "Special Dialogue and Sound Effects";

"Dolby Sound Consultant: Stephen Katz" is too close to the Rerecording Mixers credits;

"Assistant to Producer: Bunny Alsup" is too close to "Location Manager: Arnold Ross";

"2nd Unit Make-up" should be "2nd Unit Make Up";

The two lines "Composite Optical Photography" and "Optical Photography Coordinator" need to be brought down closer to the "Optical Printer Operators" credits;

The Dolby "Double-D" you used is a slightly different design than the one used in the film, yours has the D cutout holes smaller than the original. It needs to look more like the one in this: http://www.arsenmusic.com/pic/Logo_Dolby_Digital_EX_IIx.jpg

"See-Threepio (C-3PO)" should be "See Threepio (C3PO)";

"Red Four (John "D")" should have the first quotation marks be "leading" ones (with the curved part on top and looking like 6's, i.e. rotated 180 degrees in relation to the ending ones which have the curved part on the bottom and look like 9's);

As with the Dolby logo, the drop shadow on the MPAA logo and notice should be smaller, more in proportion with the logo and text than it is now.

I think the drop shadows on the whole Dolby logo part are too big in comparison to the actual logo and text. From the infinitesimal remnants of the shadow I can see in the original, it needs to be smaller, more in proportion with the logo and text.

Other than those issues, you basically nailed it. And that's a commendable feat, considering you only had one image of the drop shadow to work from.

I'll make a side-by-side of the two scrolls in case you want to fine-tune the timing, spacing and other little issues.

Hey, not on the topic of crawls/credits/etc., out of curiosity, do any of the old pre-THX German videos feature the orange burn marks when we first see R2 and 3PO?

Does the second source have the 80s Fox logo and fanfare? (Not the one on ESB and ROTJ, the long one that was on non-SW Fox films in the 80s.)

If so, it's most likely the same transfer used on that rental-only tape (and on the standard '82 VHS/Beta as well). Check the macrobinocular shot, whether it's cropped like the '82 VHS/Beta or squeezed like on the LD/CED and on HBO.

Another way to tell if it's copied from the official video is to check the end. Fox videos had the FBI warning at the end of the tape rather than the beginning, so if you see one at the end of yours....

I think the mods should close this thread before it degenerates into a flame war.

Stinky-Dinkins said:

If his sources were so superior, honestly, do you think he'd suddenly have to go back and redo the entire project at the exact same time the BD is released? Does that not seem like a bizarre coincidence to you? Please. He's doing the same thing Harmy is doing, except this guy isn't releasing his work. 

OK then, explain this:

[EDIT: Image removed - join Mike's forum to see it]

The drop shadow exists, it's just that so much detail is lost in every pre-SE video transfer that you can't see the shadow. As I demonstrated, even the edges of the main text layer are eaten away.

Mike has been referring to his "sources" in plural. From what he's said about his sources and his methods, however vague, I've gotten the impression that he is working from multiple sources beyond anything any of us have, and working to reclaim the detail level of the original negative by reconciling all of them. Also, he's been in contact with Dan Perri, the guy who did the credits. All I'm saying is that he didn't pull this drop shadow out of his you-know-where, he knows his shit about what the credits should look like.

But nevertheless, I wouldn't do it for this. I'm not even sure if the shadow would have been visible on a regular print. Both of Puggo's 16mm prints have basically the same detail level in the text as all the other pre-'97 sources I've seen.

I agree with Harmy, leave it the way it is.

To change the subject, have you considered my request to fix the shot after Alderaan blows up so that Luke's saber is as blue as the other shots in your version; sort of like the Technidisc LD, but with the correct blue hue? As I've said, as lossy as the Moth3r telecine is, I can tell that the saber is *blue* in that shot, not almost white like the GOUT or greenish-bluish-grayish like the '97 SE.

So I suggest fixing it to match all your other shots.

Why not ask Ray Glasser, the guy who posted the intro on YouTube, to send you a raw video capture of his intro so you can attach it to your copy?

Also, I know you claimed it wasn't time compressed, but did you check the sound pitch again to make sure? Ray's recording of the intro to the premiere has the same time compression as the first LD and CED...

I'm pretty sure that the drop shadow is in the GOUT source, but due to the the bleed/bloom/blowout in the text, the DVNR and/or the low resolution/general lossy quality of the transfer, and probably also due in part to the dupey quality of the film source, all the shadow detail is eaten away.

Here's Verta's image adjusted to scope, with the same from Harmy's edition below.

As you can see, so much of the detail is gone in the GOUT that the letters don't even have clear edges.

I wonder...did the orange errors show up on any of the pre-1993 video releases in France, Germany or Spain? I ask because those countries had the episode-less foreign crawls on video until the 90s. If the orange errors showed up on any European video releases prior to the THX versions, it might help crack the mystery of the origin of the IPs used for the DC/GOUT. I think they might have been sourced from subtitle-less IPs used to make the INs for certain foreign markets - or more likely dupes made from said IPs, which would account for the excessive grain, as well as the accumulated dirt and damage from the overuse of the first-gen elements. (The levels of grain on the GOUT are strong evidence that these were not first-gen elements - zombie and others have said this before.)

I'm not sure which foreign markets got "clean" versions. I can assume that France and Germany did. The old Spanish video releases had the episode-less Spanish crawl, but -1 has a Spanish print with an English crawl, credits, and probably alien subtitles too, and the PuggoKrig print is obviously just the English version with Swedish subs superimposed.

I really think that we need to start doing visual comparisons of dirt and damage between sources, including pre-THX continental European releases. I know the Technidisc LD shows more orange marks in other scenes, such as the last shot of the binary sunset sequence right before the wipe, which are not on any other copies I've seen.

I agree that we should try to stay as quiet as possible, yes. I think we all recognize this fact. If I am privy to information that someone wants to be kept private, I keep it private. I personally don't discuss these projects outside of this forum. But unless the mods see a need to intervene, it's up to the people involved in such projects to decide what should be discussed publicly and what shouldn't.

The mods haven't had a problem with this thread for the 5 years it's been around.

Oh no, all my memories of the 1999 TPM hype machine are coming flooding back. The horror, the horror... :)

The only good thing I can say about this new poster is that it doesn't have Jar Jar on it.

I am not seeing this, or any of the other SW films in 3D, because I loathe the prequels, I despise the SEs, and I refuse to watch 3D conversions of 2D films on principle. The only thing that has Star Wars in the name that would get me back into a theater would be the OUT projected from actual film prints.

You get nothing, Lucas. You lose. Good day sir.

For the most part, popular culture (thankfully) treats the prequels as one big punchline.

In the season premiere of Psych (which is, admittedly, a geek-centric show), Shawn sneaks into an ambassador's house to rescue a kid's vintage Darth Vader action figure which the ambassador's spoiled brat son stole. (Specifically, a vintage 1978 Darth Vader action figure with double-telescoping lightsaber - remember what I said about this show being geek-centric?)

All of the Star Wars references are to the OT,"I am your father," etc., save one. At one point, the ambassador's son says that the new Star Wars movies are better than the old ones. Gus' reaction: "We are dealing with a crazy person!"

A perfect example of my "prequels-as-punchline" hypothesis.

On the GOUT, yes, due to desaturation, but not on older transfers. On the Technidisc LD and on Moth3r's widescreen telecine bootleg, it's blue. From what I've been able to gather, there was much less visible color variance in Luke's saber in theatrical prints from shot to shot than there was in any of the pre-SE video releases. (When the SE came along, it got really messed up.)

Besides, Harmy fixed all of the other shots to be blue, even ones that sometimes turned up looking greenish or white in older transfers.

It's just that it's the one shot in the DE that doesn't match.