TServo2049

msycamore said:

^^Totally agree, the way those corridor scenes in the original Empire looked was beautiful.

It's quite amazing or should I say depressing that alterations are still found, the GOUT pic Harmy posted is another one of those green-turned-pink-flaws in the THX transfer, see Vader's belt.

I'm really not sure if those green-to-pink things were really alterations, so much as side effects of some of the color level futzing that was done for that transfer. I can see a little desaturated vestige of green in them in the GOUT.

I've often doubted the "SE footage cut into the O-neg" theory. Why would they cut clean, modern film stock together with 1970s stock?

Whatever the state of the O-neg, if Lucasfilm wanted to, they could most likely restore and reconstruct the original versions from the materials they have. I've said it before, I'll say it again: It's not that they *can't* do it, it's that they *won't*. It's not about money, because a Blu-ray release of a restored OOT would make back every penny of the costs of restoration.

The fact that they turned down an offer from Robert A. Harris to restore the original versions speaks volumes. I've even heard versions of the story that say that he offered to do it *for free*, and they still turned him down. I'm not sure if that part is true, but if it is, then it really *isn't* about money, it's literally because Lucas doesn't want the original versions to be restored.

dark_jedi said:

Thanks DigruntledFan, but I have AE not Premier, and I did want to go the other way and make the BD the same as the Netflix HD, but I do not want to process the whole BD video, and what if the settings make other scenes wrong, so to get this done and start on the LD Digital PCM audio sync job I wanted to get the video done as fast as I can, and for me, I still like how the BD looks to, I want to finish this up so I can finish up the SW BD Set.

Understood, the BD does look good, I have the same opinion of it as Star Trek II, the timing may not be accurate to the original timing from '82, but it looks fine in its own right, it's not a mess like a certain trilogy...

Looks good, but I still prefer the Netflix theatrical timing to the Blu. Is there any way you could also try a curve to match the BD to the theatrical instead of vice-versa? DJ has said before that he'd really like to be able to match the Blu-ray to the theatrical - is that still your opinion, DJ?

Dunno if it's any real evidence, but the timing in the original trailers is closer to the top images than the bottom.

The Technidisc does look good, but I think it has a little too much yellow/red in it?

I think some of the Hoth scenes had their luminance levels totally f'ed with in the '04 transfer. Look at the Han/Leia corridor scene - I don't ever remember it being that bright, there were always dark shadows in that scene, and their faces were at least partially obscured.

I agree about the Technidisc. Also, I think the Moth3r widescreen bootleg is a pretty good source to use along with the Technidisc. It originates from a circa-'77 telecine of an original '77 print, and even with all the multi-gen detail loss and color signal degradation, it still has enough of the original color structure left in it to be useful.

Should the same color curve can be applied to all the films? I know that the Hoth scenes in ESB had a blue cast even in the original version, but it was subtle, not overpowering like the '04.

From zombie's article on the GOUT color from his website, here's the first image from the GOUT with his custom color settings:

And the theatrical-print bootleg (which, as he points out, does have a pink shift):

Hey, did anybody read about my memory of a really early SE teaser with no actual footage, possibly in late '95? Am I just imagining it, or did it really happen? (I even seem to remember it using the "One last time" moniker from the Faces campaign...)

Ouch, that looks bad. The 2004 seems to have a lot of flattened highlights like that. The blast frames are both too colorful and not bright enough...

Yay, you got rid of the purple shadows! I've always been baffled at all the purple shadow detail on Tatooine in the '04 transfer. It's like the pink-shifted 1997 transfer, except that not all of the colors are affected...

Me too, I'm sure I'm gonna love this. I'm willing to wait a little longer if it means you can get Robert Watts.

Is there enough material for a Temple of Doom one some time in the future, when you're ready to take on another project? Off the top of my head, I can think of the Nova "The Magic of Special Effects"/Horizon "How to Film the Impossible" documentary as something that could be incorporated. I just can't think of a snappy title....

My apologies.

Is your copy PAL or NTSC?

I don't think HBO ever did watermarks. (Wasn't that strictly a Showtime thing?)

There's less grain and more detail, yes, but the stuff in the back that was diffused by the smoke and haze now looks smudgy and blobby. Look at the storm trooper on the right, and the wall paneling next to him. I feel like I'm looking at plasticine.

If you don't see anything wrong with it, that's fine with me. It just irks me is all. Who knows, maybe when I see it in motion, it won't irk me as much. Besides, I've seen much, MUCH worse on other films on BD...

I didn't really think the degraining was new; I assumed it was part of the Lowry degraining job. Shots like this and that Tatooine shot (which Harmy didn't see anything wrong with) are grainier than other shots, compounded by smoke and haze and other stuff, so when Lowry's algorithms were applied, it's no surprise that they got messed up. It's Harmy's decision on what to do for these problem shots (if he sees any problem with them, that is).

Not as bad as the BDs of Star Trek III-VI or the latest Predator release - I'm actually more surprised at how *few* of the shots you posted have these kind of egregious degraining artifacts. As I've said before, I love the look of shots like "Look sir, droids" and "I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol" (even though I think I can see a teeny bit of the purple-shadow-detail problem on the Sandcrawler?).

The crushed blacks and weird color timing are a bigger issue than the degraining. Oh, and that other problem, the one that this whole project is dedicated to undoing...:)

The fake GL/ILM conversation reminds me of how they brightened the Han/Leia corridor scene in ESB. I always loved how that scene was shrouded in moody shadows, but in '04 it looks like the cooridor is lined with floodlights. It feels like someone decided that we needed to be able to see Han and Leia's faces clearly, mood and atmosphere be damned.

What about Vader's entrance, how does that look to you?

It's your project, so if you think it looks fine, I won't get in the way. :)

I was the first person to notice these things in You_Too's color-adjusted screenshots. Basically, the 3PO/R2 image seems to have the weird waxy artifacting indicative of overzealous grain removal. Look at the exposed cables on 3PO's torso, or the panel detailing on R2. Also, look at Vader's entrance on the Tantive - specifically, look at the Stormtroopers' helmets.

I'm not saying don't do it, just pointing out some things that make me feel uneasy about using the Blu-ray as a source. (As I and others have said, perhaps these artifacts were in the '04 transfer, we just couldn't see them clearly until now.)

I will also say, however, that there are some other shots from the Blu-ray that look astounding. So I'm not sure whether the good will outweigh the bad or vice-versa.

You must do what you feel is right, of course...

R2 and 3PO on Tatooine - gah, more "watercolor filter" DNR there. R2 looks he was detailed by Claude Monet. (Again, as You_Too said in Harmy's thread, not sure if the grain removal was always this egregious but it's just more apparent now.)

And look at how they took the blue out of the hatch, it looks like all of the dark areas in the impact crater and tracks are the same odd shade of dark grayish mauve. In fact, I can see that same shade in a lot of the shadow details. (It's been discussed inside out for the past 7+ years, but I ask yet again, what's with all the weird colors in the highlights and shadows in the '04/'11 transfer? Dark areas that looked black or neutral before suddenly look blue, purple, etc...)

It still makes my head spin - why is it that some shots look amazing, while others look like absolute rubbish? Why do some shots seem to have intact grain structure, full dynamic range and accurate color values, while others have severe degraining artifacts, crushed blacks, clipped whites, and bizarre hues that seem like they don't exist on this planet? How is it that the exact same transfer can go from scenes like "Look sir, droids" and "I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol" that make me feel almost like I'm looking at the original negative, to wax-sculpture droids, purple shadows, lobster-men and a Sandcrawler interior with featureless black voids that looks like it's getting swallowed up by the Nothing?

On the Star Wars preservations forum, a Dutch member named hiephoi said he has two X9 players, and he brought up the possibility of doing an X9 capture of the Lion King CAV edition, which made me consider the possibility of other X9 Disney captures.

Molly, think you could try to contact him and see if he'd like to be part of this project?

1.0 has been released for quite a while.

I will warn you, I was looking at You_Too's Blu-ray screenshots, and I did notice something unsettling. The screenshot of Vader's first entrance looks to have that waxy, Photoshop-watercolor-filter look of an image that has been too heavily degrained. Fortunately, I didn't see that in any of his other screenshots.

Looks dang good, it does.

Hah, I didn't notice before that the escape pod hatch is still blue when the Stormtroopers are looking it over....

Yeah, there's plenty of Disney LDs crying out to be preserved properly. Beauty and the Beast CAV, Aladdin CAV, the REAL Academy ratio version of Lady and the Tramp, various deluxe CAV sets of the classic films (with some extras that still haven't shown up on DVD or Blu-ray), perhaps even an X9 capture of Song of the South.

Molly has been working on a Disney LD preservation project but it hasn't seem to have gotten very far as of late...

OK, I checked the Technidisc LD since it used the same source element at the GOUT (and the end credits fade out a little later just like on the GOUT), and the font looking different in the MPAA logo on the GOUT does seem to be due to denoising, not because it's actually different. When I laid the Technidisc over the JSC, the font matched. So the GOUT credit roll is identical to the one all the pre-'93 video releases / the Starkiller bootleg / Puggo Krig, with the exception of the timing of the fade-out.

Also, the transition from the credits on starfield to John Barry's name scrolling up isn't just a fade-out, then fade-in, it's a dissolve. Due to the denoising, you can't see the two onscreen at the same time in the GOUT. Laserschwert, I'll PM you with screenshots from the Technidisc to show the timing of the dissolve.

I'm pretty sure that this is the font used in the MPAA notice:

Unfortunately, I just can't find this font anywhere, it's probably some sort of variant of Helvetica or a similar typeface, but none of the versions available for computer look like it.

Interestingly, I believe that "No. 24925" is actually in the same font as the actual credits. Oftentimes, since the MPAA number was put in over a generic template with the logo, they just put either the number or the whole "No. #####" in the same typeface they were using for the rest of the credits. I know that 2001: A Space Odyssey has "NO." in the same font as "APPROVED" and the MPAA name, but the actual certificate number is in the credits typeface. In the case of this film, it looks like the whole "No. 24925" is in the main credits font. I'm looking at the "2" and the "9" in Puggo's transfers, and they do look the same as the "2" and "9" used elsewhere in the credits.

Heck, maybe someone could take a HD screencap of the MPAA notice from 2001 from the Blu-ray, and you could trace the "APPROVED" and "MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA" from that - they're pretty big in that, bigger than they are in SW I think. You know, I think I'll try to get an image...