Superweapon VII

Spartacus01 said:

Vladius said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I don’t believe in the doctrine of attachment it was made up on the prequel. It exists literally nowhere in the original trilogy or the expanded universe before episode II. In fact Luke wins because he doesn’t follow what Ben and Yoda told him, his attachment to his father turns the tide of the war bringing Anakin back to the light.

You’re correct that it was made up in 2002 for Attack of the Clones. But nothing about what Obi Wan or Yoda told Luke in the OT applies to it either.

Personally, I like the way the old EU handled it. There was a time when Jedi were totally free to get married and have families. Then, somewhere between Tales of the Jedi and the KOTOR comics, the no-marriage rule was introduced. But later on, Luke got rid of that rule when he started his own Jedi Order. I think this kind of development adds depth to the lore, and makes the Jedi feel more organic and grounded. It shows that the Order evolved over time, made mistakes, and tried to learn from them.

Children of the Jedi heavily implied that the Jedi during the Clone Wars/Great Jedi Purge were allowed to have romantic partners and children.

I feel the best way to have incorporated a forbidden romance into the PT without overturning previously established EU lore would’ve been to have made the prequel-era Jedi endogamous.

Hollywood is adept at showcasing the mounting absurdities of late-stage capitalism.

JadedSkywalker said:

I liked that the Callista romance went nowhere. The Akanah thing was a total waste of time. The Black Fleet trilogy was garbage.

Though I actually like 2 of the 3 Callista trilogy novels.

I used to be a Luke/Callista shipper. But that’s because I was a hormonal teenager when I read Children of the Jedi, which was the first SW story I consumed in any medium which depicted Luke as a person capable of experiencing romantic/sexual feelings more intense than chaste puppy love. When I got around to reading the entire Callista Trilogy in my twenties, my investment in their relationship cooled significantly. And once I read the Hand of Thrawn Duology, I was fully aboard the Luke/Mara train.

My memories of the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy aren’t sharp. I remember thinking it would’ve better if the B-plot with Lando had tied into the A-plot somehow instead of just being a diversionary side story.

JadedSkywalker said:

Well there is Splinter of the Mind’s Eye where Luke and Vader first fought, and Luke had a sort of almost romance with Princess Leia. Vader even appears to have fallen in a deep pit and died and he lost an arm.

Some fans posit that the Vader Luke and Leia fought in the Temple of Pomojema was a spectre created by the Kaiburr Crystal rather than the real Vader. Think Luke’s vision of Vader in the cave on Dagobah dialled up to 11. Obviously that wasn’t what Alan Dean Foster had in mind when writing the novel, but it’s the only real way you can integrate SOTME and TESB in the same continuity holistically.

Mike O said:

I’m sorry to bug you guys, I just feel like I have no place to go.

You don’t bug me at all. I always feel for you, no matter what. And I know I’m not the only one here who does.

JadedSkywalker said:

EU purists who insist it was a part of George’s vision and that the prequel and the EU all fits together as one piece.

Oh my, this. They should familiarize themselves with the historical-critical method and apply it to SW lore.

Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!

RogueLeader said:

Regarding ghost Anakin having the Tatooine robes, Anakin was from Tatooine so many people have made the argument that it is representing that, not the Jedi uniform.

I prefer to believe that Anakin modelled his spectral form after Ben’s in an effort to make his appearance as benign and comforting to Luke as possible. A militaristic black uniform may’ve been a tad off-putting.

red5-626 said:

I am “NOT” losing interest in the things I used to enjoy. I’m losing access to the things I used to enjoy.

I typed this in to google. Only the AI gave a response that was not about Loss of Interest in things I used to enjoy.

Butlerian Jihad when?

Heather Langenkamp

“Oft have I digg’d up dead men from their graves and set them upright at their dear friends’ doors, even when their sorrows almost was forgot; and on their skins, as on the barks of trees, have with my knife carved in Roman letters, ‘LET NOT THY SORROW DIE, THOUGH I AM DEAD’!”

Toni Halliday

C866

C874

C876

C877

The Colour Hurts

I Dream of Love as Time Runs Through My Hand

Love Is Blue

A Million Years Into the Sky

Now I’m Sick and Always Will Be

Your AI Girlfriend Is Going to Give You a Virus

I’m not the biggest Spaceballs fan. I’m mostly in this to see Rick Moranis in something again (I wasn’t yet ten years old when he did his last live-action performance, for crying out loud).

PiPPiN221 said:

(If only I knew how to properly do image or video embeds in this site.)

AFAIK, video embeds aren’t a thing here, but you can embed images.


Project Pitchfork - Blood-Diamond (See Him Running)

Monarchism in a nutshell.

Plot Whore

JadedSkywalker said:

plot wholes

You mispelled “whores”.

;-P

JF_Sanderson said:

I wonder if at any point developing Rotj, George considered making Luke into “Luke Vader” and keeping Anakin a separate character than Darth.

He should’ve.

Dagenspear said:

If Jesus saves, he’d better save himself from the gory glory-seekers who use his name in death.

JadedSkywalker said:

Going into the heart of darkness to understand the darkside is exactly what Ulic did. It seems to be something Veitch was interested in, if he used it more than once.

I’m going to infiltrate the Sith from within and slowly walk the path, I won’t fully go over. He gets a taste of power like a drug and it’s so seductive he loses himself. Then he slays his brother, a kinslaying there is no going back from that. Nomi took pity on him and cut him off from the force.

Yoda warned Luke. not to walk the quick and easy path. Forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.

Veitch had it that multiple Jedi attempted to conquer the dark side from within, but none succeeded. Luke didn’t succeed, either, for that matter; he just didn’t lose himself as fully as his predecessors. Veitch even intended Ulic to die unredeemed to show how great a price he paid, though KJA changed that with Redemption. Redemption’s a well-written story, probably Anderson’s best writing in anything ever, but I still feel it undermined the tale Veitch intended to tell.

Spartacus01 said:

Superweapon VII said:

I think it’s a misreading of DE that Luke embraces the dark side in the story. Luke is attempting to understand the secrets of the dark side, both to understand why his father turned and as a means of conquering the dark side from within, but he underestimates the sheer oppressive nature of the dark side and comes dangerously close to succumbing to it, but Leia comes in at just the right moment to pull him back from falling into that abyss.

The problem is that Dark Empire basically rehashes something that already happened and was resolved at the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke already flirted with the Dark Side. He was right there on the edge, he nearly killed Vader in anger. That was his moment of temptation, and he overcame it. That was the whole point of his character arc in the Original Trilogy: he saw what his father became, he almost followed the same path, and he chose to stop and throw his weapon away. So when Dark Empire comes along and says, “He flirted with the Dark Side again, was almost about to fall, and it took Leia to bring him back,” it just undercuts everything that came before. It feels like going in circles instead of progressing the story. From a narrative standpoint, it is just not satisfying.

Guess I can understand that position from someone who enjoys ROTJ. I don’t enjoy ROTJ. What you see as a rehash, I see as an improvement.

Spartacus01 said:

Vladius said:

Spartacus01 said:

Vladius said:

Superweapon VII said:

*yawn*

Our concept of hell doesn’t have biblical origins

yawn yeah it does

Can you elaborate?

I’m not going to watch that video but at the very least the title is misleading. Hell comes up in the bible as either Sheol/Hades like the Greek concept as a place for dead spirits, or Gehenna, which is named after a valley in Israel and symbolizes fiery torment and burning. It’s worth noting for all the people here who are fans of sanitized 21st century-friendly hippie Jesus that Christ talks more about hell (Gehenna) than anyone else in the bible.

Of course different Christians have different interpretations of how all this works, who goes to hell, how long it lasts, what the nature of it is, what the difference between Sheol and Gehenna is, etc. but it’s clearly right there in the text. The imagery and the concept of a place of punishment is obviously biblical.

I have not watched the video either, but I am familiar with the arguments of those who claim that the popular concept of Hell is not rooted in biblical tradition. I have always been interested in the history and study of religions, so I am aware of the various interpretations and debates concerning certain concepts and words. I presume that the author of the video — and I repeat, I am saying this without having watched it — does not deny that those terms are used in the Bible. Rather, I believe they argue that the modern Christian interpretation, which associates those terms with the concept of Hell as it is understood in modern popular culture, is not necessarily correct. To be honest, I am not even sure I can completely disagree, considering that Jews, for instance, do not believe in Hell and interpret those terms in a completely different way.

Personally, when it comes to the Old Testament, I tend to agree more with the Jews than with the Christians. After all, the Hebrew Bible was written by the Jews, so I believe it makes more sense to follow their perspective when it comes to vocabulary, lexicon, and the exegesis of Hebrew texts. Of course, I am aware that Judaism is not a monolithic tradition, but there are certain points on which all Jews have always agreed. For instance, 99% of Jews have never believed in the existence of fallen angels, with the exception of a few small messianic sects that existed during the Second Temple period. So again, when it comes to the Old Testament, I prefer to follow Jewish interpretations rather than Christian ones, primarily for a matter of consistency.

If you want a brief summary of the video, it’s that there’re multiple different perspectives on the afterlife/divine punishment in both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament – the OG Sheol, which was a gloomy underworld where everyone went to after death, then later on annhilationism, universal salvation, and yes, even eternal conscious torment for sinners. Is the video title a bit clickbaity? Yeah. But eternal conscious torment is not the only view expressed in the Bible, and not a majority opinion until the post-biblical period centuries later.

The backstory I devised for my version of the Clone Wars:

Following the Light and Darkness War, the Galactic Republic was at peace. Aided by the Holy Order of the Jedi Knights, the Republic experienced a period of stability and prosperity which endured nearly a thousand years. But gradually, the Republic declined. As the governance of the Galactic Senate faltered under a stagnant bureaucracy, megacorporations rose in power. More-and-more senators, seduced by power and wealth, allied themselves with corporate interests, and the largest megacorporations had their own representatives placed in the Senate. The Jedi, formerly quasi-anarchist warrior monks who’d served the peoples of the Republic irrespective of the state, became a branch of the Republic Armed Forces, answerable to the Senate and its puppet masters.

In the final century of the so-called Great Peace, cloning was perfected by Spaarti Creations, a biotech company based on the planet Jhantor. Engineered for strength, stamina, and servility, clones were mass-produced as a cheap alternative to paid organics and droids, utilized for a variety of purposes: menial labour, private armies, etc. The response was overwhelming and multifarious. Humanitarian objections were raised against the use of what amounted to slave labour; workers objected to their loss of employment; conspiratorial thinkers dreaded the prospect of individuals being replaced with clone duplicates; droid manufacturing companies balked at the competition. The subsequent conflicts became known collectively as the Clone Wars. In 61 BBY, the Senate capitulated to the widespread anti-clone sentiment by enacting regulations against cloning technology, placing it under state ownership, strictly controlling its application. In response, Jhantor and its subsidiary worlds seceded from the Republic, forming the isolationist Axis of Spaarti.

JadedSkywalker said:

Dark Empire supposedly ruining the chosen one story and Saga of Darth Vader doesn’t bother me, because neither of those things existed before the prequels.

Since I hate the Chosen One horseshit, that only makes me like DE even more.

For me the easier critique it’s out of character for Luke, he faced his trial in Return of the Jedi and did not go over to the Dark Side. Veitch, on the other hand probably thought well Luke got a taste of the Dark Side in ROTJ why he wouldn’t go over.

I think it’s a misreading of DE that Luke embraces the dark side in the story. Luke is attempting to understand the secrets of the dark side, both to understand why his father turned and as a means of conquering the dark side from within, but he underestimates the sheer oppressive nature of the dark side and comes dangerously close to succumbing to it, but Leia comes in at just the right moment to pull him back from falling into that abyss.

A lot of EU has to do certain things like the Rebellion can’t be victorious on Endor we can’t have a happy ending. We need to have decades of further conflict, Sith and Jedi wars, Vong. A second Galactic Civil war.

Yeah. Part of the reason why I regard the Hand of Thrawn duology as the concluding chapter of the Expanded Universe.

What would a post 1998 EU look like I often wonder if the prequels were wiped from the timeline and Dave’s clone wars never happened.

Bantam solution for everything was Superweapon of the week. What would have happened if Del Rey did not get the book license for everything except the Han Solo trilogy by Daley, The Lando books and the novelizations of SW, TESB and RotJ.

I believe we would’ve still gotten some version of the NJO, though the details would’ve been different.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Horse_invasion_storyline

And presuming Lucas finally allowed EU writers free reign of the prequel era, we would’ve gotten something like the Clone Wars multimedia project, perhaps with Zahn and Veitch onboard. Perhaps Atha Prime from Kenner’s unrealized “Power of the Force” toyline would’ve been folded into the canon.