I’d love to see a story that follows through with George’s Sequel plans of showing the Whills and microbiotic world. I’m so fascinated by the Force and the lore surrounding it. I know I’m in the minority though and in turn know it most likely will never happen.
My Current List:
George Lucas
Andrei Tarkovsky
Wim Wenders
Ingmar Bergman
Agnès Varda
Michael Powell/Emeric Pressburger
Francis Ford Coppola
Terrence Malick
Wojciech Has
Akira Kurosawa
Hayao Miyazaki
Federico Fellini
Sergio Leone
Larisa Shepitko
Alfonso Cuarón
François Truffaut
Jacques Demy
David Lean
Alfred Hitchcock
Ridley Scott
Nancy Meyers
Robert Zemeckis
Martin Scorsese
David Lynch
Maybe he could go to space.
Indy could use some company!
I don’t think fans really wanted another Luke, Leia, and Han trilogy per say. I know for me I just wanted something that respected them as characters and felt like a natural progression to where we last saw them. Instead it feels like a regression.
Luke - He ended Return of the Jedi as the last Jedi. In the Sequel Trilogy he ends his story arc no different from where he was during the end of the previous trilogy. The only difference is he’s now broken and depressed as he failed. I didn’t need Luke to be Superman but I do feel seeing him pass on what he knew to the next generation as foreshadowed by his talk with Yoda was an essential part of his character development that felt promised to be told. He could fail at first to convey a Fisher King like narrative but instead he fails and everything is given to Rey because the plot says so and not because she earned it. Luke could definitely fail at first after following the teachings of the Jedi that came before but it’s poorly written and conveyed.
Leia - She’s in the same position she was at the start of A New Hope. She’s leading the Rebel Alliance then and now she’s leading the Resistance. Her growth to becoming a senator and even Supreme Chancellor is squandered. She fails at being a mother.
Han - He’s back to smuggling and where he was at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. He doesn’t continue to grow and become a respected figure in the Republic as his arc in Return of the Jedi implied when he became a general in the Rebel Alliance. Instead he’s back to smuggling, failed as a father, and loss the Millennium Falcon for reasons. Everything he overcame is thrown out the window.
All of these issues stem from The Force Awakens decision to be a soft reboot. The characters are mostly delightful and fun but the problem is the story they’re going through has no sense of consequence or baring on what comes afterwards. Hardly anything in the film has an emotional payoff or point in viewing things retrospectively. It’s there just to look like Star Wars but it doesn’t actually feel like Star Wars as it serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things.
I was ready to explore a new generation of characters with the trio serving as mentors. I wanted to see the children of Han and Leia and if in the cards Luke. I knew though George wasn’t so keen on the Expanded Universe in part because he didn’t see Luke as having children. So Luke having a kid may not have been likely but he could have served as a surrogate type parent. Instead we’re following characters they’ve never met or don’t have a connection to them directly or indirectly. The Skywalker saga is about generations of the same family and suddenly not following them in favour of a “Nobody” then Palpatine just feels very anticlimactic.
You don’t need your heroes to become regressed failures to convey a good story to prop up a new generation.
This makes the white-hot outrage over Luke’s characterisation in TLJ even more laughable.
At the end of RotJ, Han and Leia are respected leaders and heroes to the New Republic. Fast forward to TFA and Han is back to being the scoundrel smuggler we were introduced to in the first movie, and Leia is back to being a Rebel leader, and thus we have two characters who made a 360° turn.
It’s strange how Abrams hasn’t received any backlash for this deliberate regression, but Rian Johnson gets all the blame for ruining Luke Skywalker.
Well, it wasn’t even Abrams who did that setup, it was George.
And I disagree that Leia is in the same place. Before she was trying to bring down the Empire and now she is trying to save the New Republic from the First Order. She is fighting the entire time to preserve what she had achieved. While some argue the wording of the opening crawls implies that the First Order had won, the fleet we see in the end of TROS shows that they had not yet won, just intimidated the various system governments.
Han was going to die in George’s version anyway (so was Luke for that matter). Abrams at least gave us a glorious scene for him to exit on. And it is far from pointless. Johnson has that event derail Kylo and it ultimately leads to his return to the light in TROS. So it is a pivotal scene for the characters. And face it, most of us wanted to see the Rogue Han Solo over a respectable Han Solo. It was a good character choice in many ways.
And ultimately when you come down to the myths and legends that Star Wars is built on, everything about the former heroes not still being on top of things falls perfectly in line. Han went back to what was comfortable, Leia is protecting the Republic like she fought the Empire, the fall of Kylo Ren and the destruction of his school has ripped off the veneer of mastery that Luke had put on to reveal the flaws in his character. Luke more than the others has become a different mythic figure. Not the wise old man waiting for the hero, but the disillusioned hero not ready to help the hero.
It was J.J. though. In Return of the Jedi it’s naturally implied as part of the story and the films before it that the part of destroying the Galactic Empire is over and that re-establishing will be the next step as there’s a power vacuum created by the Empire being defeated but also the Hutts as well. That will be a tricky situation to get under control if someone tries to exploit it. There’s no set up for the Empire to rise again except possibly the fleet we see at the Battle of Endor that seems to have escaped but even then that doesn’t explain how they’d become the First Order and have the funds to build a bigger Death Star and have a huge fleet. It might be in a novel but you shouldn’t have to need supplement material for what should be in the movie to explain essential story.
It’s too late. As Holdo says, "We are the spark that that’ll light the fire, that will restore the Republic. The spark is that the Resistance must survive. This is our mission.”. The New Republic is gone. It was destroyed by Starkiller Base as the people who show up at the end of The Rise of Skywalker are ordinary people who’ve had enough of the First Order and possibly Final Order. It’s never said they’re part of system governments but people.
They were both going to die in George’s Sequel Trilogy but we only know how with Luke. It was going to be in Episode IX after he restored the Jedi Order. It’s difficult to say how Han would have died but Harrison Ford said it would’ve happened in Episode VII like we got during the lead up to The Force Awakens. I’d say it’s still pointless with Kylo/Ben in the end as you have to take in account Leia too. She sensed the death of him if she continued her Jedi training. He still died. His parents both died for nothing. He was redeemed and saved Rey but that’s it. No Skywalker lived on to continue the legacy. Instead Rey is the last one standing but she’s a Palpatine and the Republic must be established again as it was destroyed. It’s more or less the same story position as Return of the Jedi. How is everyone going to react when they find out Rey is related to Palpatine? Will it be like in the books when Leia nearly loss everything when it was revealed she was Darth Vader’s daughter? It creates so many unnecessary problems and complications. It may have been fun to see Han rogue at first but it’s regressing his character and not letting him grow up as he did across the entire Original Trilogy. He went from selfish and self centred to one of the Rebel Alliance’s most loyal members and very selfless towards Leia and his friends. It’s only natural to expect him to continue to grow. They could’ve still played with Han’s smuggler backstory under the power vacuum scenario since it’s all about crime syndicates in George’s story for example trying to overtake the Republic but not at the expense of his personal growth.
It’s all about the execution of said ideas. Why does Han need to go back to the only thing he’s good at? Is he not allowed to rise above what he worked very hard to overcome with the help of others? The Republic is gone. They’re trying to restore it just as the Rebel Alliance was trying to do. Leia is doing the same thing she was thirty years ago. She’s still fighting an Empire in so many words. With Luke though George also had him as broken but he overcame it and in the end restored the Jedi Order. It’s all about execution and respecting character growth. Instead we got a failure who passed on the mantle to Rey because the plot says she must be the last Jedi now. It doesn’t ever show us why she’s earned the right to it. It’s just given to her as the plot says she’s the protagonist like with the lightsaber, the Millennium Falcon, Luke’s X-Wing, and even Leia’s training. Leia will train a Palpatine but not her own son? Star Wars was an ecological value system before and the collective whole. It was not not just one individual collecting everything and being the only hero. Even with Anakin being the Chosen One he still needed help from Luke. Just as Han needed help with overcoming his smuggling past. Just as Leia needed help to get off the Death Star. Just as Luke needed help destroying the Death Star. It was a value system of the collective whole of people helping people.
These things just don’t sit right with me. It needs to be clear within the narrative what is going on. You shouldn’t need to read or look up supplement material to understand the story the films are trying to convey. There’s only one rare instance I find in George’s story where you may need supplement material to understand something and that’s the mystery of Sifo-Dyas. However it’s something he planned to explain in his Sequels as he was the secret apprentice of Palpatine. So it would’ve been addressed eventually and supplement material wouldn’t be needed for it.
Ulimately on my part I’m glad you enjoy the the Sequels. I genuinely wish I could see the things you see. They are pretty fun on their own merits in some ways and have some Star Wars like qualities but ulimately I find they’re lacking in consistency that makes sense within the context of the first six films.
Added New Pokemon Snap the other day. It’s been really fun and very relaxing. It has a very calming effect. I love that it combines my loves of photography, ecology, and Pokemon all in one.
This makes the white-hot outrage over Luke’s characterisation in TLJ even more laughable.
At the end of RotJ, Han and Leia are respected leaders and heroes to the New Republic. Fast forward to TFA and Han is back to being the scoundrel smuggler we were introduced to in the first movie, and Leia is back to being a Rebel leader, and thus we have two characters who made a 360° turn.
It’s strange how Abrams hasn’t received any backlash for this deliberate regression, but Rian Johnson gets all the blame for ruining Luke Skywalker.
In my experience, Rian gets a lot of blame for things he wasn’t able to do anything about.
There’s a lot of problems with characterisation at the hands of what Rian did to Luke as his arc is very much following the same trajectory of Return of the Jedi but at the same time it’s not entirely his fault either. He was put in a position that he had to try to make sense of how Luke was already so out of character leaving his family and friends without reason. He went looking for the first Jedi Temple for reasons. He doesn’t even tell Han or Leia why. He just leaves them without a trace and on a wild bantha chase that ulimately meant nothing.
I think the reason J.J. gets so much of a free pass is he made something that looks like Star Wars and when you don’t think too much it really hits the beats of the first two films in particular. A lot of people want Star Wars to feel like these two but George decided to grow it beyond just that. It was no longer just a Saturday matinee adventure serial or dreamlike tragedy. It was also a child’s fantasy, a film noir mystery, and opera to name but three subgenres within how it evolved. Even The Clone Wars series tried very hard to make each season different. The first season is about showing models to kids on how to live the rest of their lives, the second is showing bounty hunters, and it continues to the very end with Yoda’s Arc exploring the Force Priestesses and the deeper metaphysical side of the Force. George never restorted to doing the same thrills.
There was poetry of course and similar storybeats but it was always different. Like in A New Hope the Death Star conveys Luke’s external struggle to defeat the Empire but in Return of the Jedi the situation is much more internal on Death Star II. It’s Luke going into the heart of what twisted and converted his father. The same thing with Anakin destroying the Trade Federation ship. It was an accident versus Luke who trusted the Force with destroying the Death Star. The moments and poetry have to be different to work. You don’t really get that sense in the Sequel Trilogy.
I don’t think fans really wanted another Luke, Leia, and Han trilogy per say. I know for me I just wanted something that respected them as characters and felt like a natural progression to where we last saw them. Instead it feels like a regression.
Luke - He ended Return of the Jedi as the last Jedi. In the Sequel Trilogy he ends his story arc no different from where he was during the end of the previous trilogy. The only difference is he’s now broken and depressed as he failed. I didn’t need Luke to be Superman but I do feel seeing him pass on what he knew to the next generation as foreshadowed by his talk with Yoda was an essential part of his character development that felt promised to be told. He could fail at first to convey a Fisher King like narrative but instead he fails and everything is given to Rey because the plot says so and not because she earned it. Luke could definitely fail at first after following the teachings of the Jedi that came before but it’s poorly written and conveyed.
Leia - She’s in the same position she was at the start of A New Hope. She’s leading the Rebel Alliance then and now she’s leading the Resistance. The Resistance is the bare bones equivalent. Her growth to becoming a senator and even Supreme Chancellor is squandered. She even fails at being a mother.
Han - He’s back to smuggling and where he was during The Empire Strikes Back. He doesn’t continue growing into a selfless individual and become a respected figure in the Republic as his arc in Return of the Jedi implied when he became a general in the Rebel Alliance. Instead he’s back to smuggling, failed as a father, and loss the Millennium Falcon for reasons. Everything he overcame is thrown out the window.
All of these issues stem from The Force Awakens decision to be a soft reboot. The characters are mostly delightful and fun but the problem is the story they’re going through has no sense of consequence or baring on what comes afterwards. Hardly anything in the film has an emotional payoff or point in viewing things retrospectively. It’s there just to look like Star Wars but it doesn’t actually feel like Star Wars as it serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things.
I was ready to explore a new generation of characters with the trio serving as mentors. I wanted to see the children of Han and Leia and if in the cards Luke. I knew though George wasn’t so keen on the Expanded Universe in part because he didn’t see Luke as having children. So Luke having a kid may not have been likely but he could have served as a surrogate type parent. Instead we’re following characters they’ve never met or don’t have a connection to them directly or indirectly. The Skywalker saga is about generations of the same family and suddenly not following them in favour of a “Nobody” then Palpatine just feels very anticlimactic.
You don’t need your heroes to become regressed failures to convey a good story to prop up a new generation.
Added Francis Ford Coppola’s One from the Heart.
Wow, alot of salty comments about Star Wars in general in this thread 😬
End of the day its a good time to be a Star Wars fan if your able to embrace the new.“We are what they grow beyond” - Yoda 😉
It’s a problem if the new isn’t good.
Exactly. I know that the Star Wars fandom has a serious toxicity problem, but some fans recently have been going the polar opposite direction: Acting like Star Wars is a perfect flawless franchise and everyone who criticizes it is a toxic hater. Every franchise has flaws, especially Star Wars, and this mindless “enjoy everything with the Star Wars logo on it” mindset really isn’t healthy.
For example, I like The Last Jedi a lot more than most of the fandom, but I would never try to stop people from criticizing it (unless they were being an ass about it). Similarly, I dislike Rogue One a lot more than most of the fandom, but I would never try to stop people from praising it. Is it really that hard to just let opinions exist without trying to convince people that your opinion is the only objectively correct one?
Exactly. It’s about remaining civil and respecting everyone has a different point of view on Star Wars. However at the same time it’s important to recognise there’s flaws. Even in the Original Trilogy. I’m no gatekeeper but continuing to make Star Wars appeal to a mass audience I think is going to make this more and more of an issue where you see lifelong fans silenced in favour of more casual fans who have a limited understanding of where Star Wars came from and what it originally meant.
Again I’m glad there’s people who are finding joy in the new but if you don’t respect what came before you risk alienating a lot of people who you could have on your side too.
Unpopular Opinion: I truly wish they had followed George’s story treatments for VII, VIII, and IX and did the spinoffs. Afterwards they could then start to make things for a mass audience as it would’ve given lifelong fans closure and new fans something fresh at the same time. Star Wars would sell regardless but more successfully I think if the past had been respected before moving onto new ways of viewing things.
I guess that is a possible explanation, but I think it would have been a lot cleaner if Lucas just didn’t include R2 or 3PO in the prequels at all. There is zero reason they needed to be there other than nostalgia.
Even if he does have a low opinion of droids, there’s no reason why he shouldn’t remember the fact that he owned one for the entire duration of the Clone Wars, since he was actually on a first-name basis with said droid.
I know Owen wasn’t explicitly confirmed to be Anakin’s actual brother, but even then it was heavily implied that Owen was around when Anakin was taken to be a Jedi: Obi-Wan says that Owen “thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved”, and that isn’t really possible when Owen only meets Anakin 10 years after he became a Jedi.
George may have greenlit the Clone Wars cartoon, but what I mean by “the cartoons don’t count” is that they can’t be used as a way to hide the movies’ flaws. Lucas should have thought of a way to have Obi-Wan serve Bail when he was actually writing the prequels, instead of having Filoni make up a rationalization 5 years later.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said “it was the Force” isn’t a valid explanation. Way too often, fans use “it was the Force” as a cheap way to cover up plot issues. And no matter what rationalization you use, I still think it would be a lot cleaner if Luke actually was on Dagobah when he was very young.
That moment where Obi-Wan grabs the robot was pretty reckless, but it’s pretty much the only moment where he was actually shown being reckless. I’m pretty sure he actually got the Council’s approval to train Anakin. It really feels like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were originally supposed to be the same character, but they transferred all the “Obi-Wan” character elements (including the recklessness) onto Qui-Gon, causing Obi-Wan’s character to feel weird.
I guess he was technically there when all that stuff happened, but I guess it just feels weird that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever mentioned Qui-Gon throughout the entire OT. Once again, it really seems like Qui-Gon was a last minute addition to the prequels, and his role was originally going to be filled by Obi-Wan.
Lucas wasn’t even going to make a sequel trilogy until he wrote a preliminary plot treatment for Disney to take inspiration from just before he sold the franchise, so I’m only taking the OT and prequels into account here. And the dialogue in ROTJ clearly indicates that Leia’s memories are supposed to be actual memories: she says that Padme “died when she was very young,” not that she died in childbirth.
He may have been on defense most of the time, but his mission was still to kill him. And even if he secretly was hoping Vader would return to the light, Vader wouldn’t know that since he was so absorbed in his “The Jedi turned against me” mindset at the time, so it’s weird that Vader is the one who says that Obi-Wan thought he could be redeemed.
The stories are told through the eyes of the droids. It’s like Ancient Greek theatre. R2 is meant to recount the story of the Skywalker family to the Keeper of the Whills. It’s R2’s story in a general sense. He’s meant to relate the story years after the Skywalker saga ends.
True. It could just as much be PTSD. That’s headcanon though but trauma does affect your memory. I’ve experienced it first hand.
I see what you mean on this point. It’s definitely the plot point I find isn’t conveyed as good as it should be in the George Lucas canon of seeing things. For me I see it as Owen Lars remembers hearing the name “Obi-Wan Kenobi” when R2 interrupts Shimi’s funeral then years later he and Obi-Wan have a confrontation and Owen blames him for taking Anakin on the “Idealistic Crusade” which is the Clone War as he’s the only one who he feels he can blame as he thinks Anakin is dead. He doesn’t want Luke to have the lightsaber as he fears a similar fate. Dooku is referred to as a “Political Idealist” and the whole Clone War has roots in different ideology views. That’s how I see it but I do admit I think it can be a bit jarring. However things do happen off screen.
I suppose so but the series is George’s last Star Wars stories. The majority of the content they made for it comes directly from him. So I see it as an extension to the films. Attack of the Clones we see the beginning of the war and Revenge of the Sith we see the end of it. The details of what exactly happened during it are filled in during the series. The Prequels for me show the bigger picture ideas of what happened in stages. Episode I shows Palpatine coming to power and the fragile senate that he exploited. Episode II shows the distortion he’s further creating and the beginning of the proxy war. Episode III is the rise of the Empire. This is juxtaposed with the personal story of Anakin’s rise and fall.
I agree in part absolutely. The Force can’t be used to wave off everything but it is something more spiritual and also entirely unexplainable. In a general sense it’s God. I see it as human’s free will and we think we have control over things but in reality we don’t. In a general sense this is the Whills telling Luke and everyone else their destiny as they have some control over him. Just like reality. This is also subjective I suppose to everyone’s point of view.
The Council did approve but they sensed grave danger in Anakin being trained. They only agreed reluctantly. Obi-Wan would’ve done it either way as he gave Qui-Gon his word. None of them knew what to do with Anakin except for Qui-Gon.
It is unfortunate that Qui-Gon wasn’t mentioned in the Original Trilogy but Luke seemed to be on a need to know basis. So I don’t consider it a bad thing.
Actually he started writing in 2011 before Disney came into the picture and he nearly made Episode VII himself. There’s so much misinformation about this out there that keeping track of what actually was going to happen and what wasn’t is hard to find. Same with what was in George’s treatments before it was unveiled a bit more in detail. I do see what you mean though as it does imply that but it doesn’t bother me too much.
His mission may have been set by Yoda to kill him but he is his own individual at the same time. He has a personal point of view just as Vader could’ve realised as much in the years after that Obi-Wan was only trying to save and protect him upon reflection. Twenty four years is a long time.
- R2 somehow doesn’t recognize Obi-Wan or Yoda, Obi-Wan and Yoda don’t seem to recognize R2 either
- Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
- Obi-Wan makes it sound like Owen and Anakin are actual brothers, and Owen resisted when Anakin started his training, which is just completely wrong
- The “served my father in the Clone Wars” bit that started this thread (and no, the cartoons don’t count)
- Obi-Wan says Yoda was the master who instructed him, but Yoda was actually the master who instructed the master who instructed the master who instructed him
- Luke feels like he’s been to Dagobah before, despite the fact that he never actually went there before
- Obi-Wan says that he was reckless as an apprentice, despite the prequels portraying him as basically the opposite of reckless
- Obi-Wan acts like he discovered Anakin’s piloting ability and Force skill, despite Qui-Gon being the one who discovered that (I’m noticing a lot of contradictions disappear if you merge Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon into a single character)
- Leia says she remembers her real mother, despite the fact that her mother died in childbirth (and no, “it was the Force” isn’t a valid explanation, especially since Luke doesn’t have those memories)
- Vader says Obi-Wan once thought he could be redeemed, despite Obi-Wan going to Mustafar to kill him (and no, the upcoming Obi-Wan spinoff doesn’t count)
Who says he doesn’t? R2 is known to troll and know more than he let’s on. Yoda and Obi-Wan could also just be keeping to themselves how much they know as they did with the truth about Luke’s father.
During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.
I don’t know about that as I never got that impression. It seems more like headcanon to me or the Return of the Jedi novelisation saying Owen was Obi-Wan’s brother. The story didn’t get set until Attack of the Clones. Step brother is still family.
George considered The Clone Wars canon. So it certainly counts as an explanation.
The Force works in mysterious ways. “Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone.” It could just as much be the Force showing Luke that Dagobah plays a role in his destiny. Just as Obi-Wan guiding him there was through the Force.
He has moments of being reckless and cocky. Like when he jumps out of the window when the assassin droid comes to Padme’s apartment. Same with his desire to train Anakin without the approval of the Jedi Council at the will request of Qui-Gon. Plus it could just as well be he was reckless when he was a youngling being taught by Yoda as he mentions being instructed by him. Yoda taught the children before they were assigned masters upon becoming padawan learners.
Obi-Wan was there on Tatooine when Anakin was discovered and from a certain point of view he was with Qui-Gon when Anakin was discovered. Jedi work in teams. A master and apprentice. He saw Anakin’s potential with the Force through his midi-chlorian count. Same with knowing about Anakin’s skills to win the podrace to secure them the parts they needed to leave. Surely he also knows what happened to the Trade Federation command ship too.
George planned to explain Leia’s Force abilities in his Sequel Trilogy. So it’s not so much a contradiction but something that was never addressed by Disney unless it’s in a novel or something. It could just as much be she has memories like Yoda taught in his lesson I mention above in relation to Luke. The same could be said of Leia having visions of Padme. It’s something George would’ve delved into I’m sure as Rick McCallum spoke of it. The Force works differently in every living thing. Everyone has the Force. So how it impacts Leia might be different than Luke.
Obi-Wan was hesitant on going as he wanted to confront Palpatine instead but he respected Yoda’s wishes and seeked out Padme. He fought the whole duel with Anakin/Vader on Mustafar in defence until the very end. He didn’t want to kill Anakin. It’s only when he thought he was far gone that he began to switch to offence.
Every hear people tell old war stories? Well, when someone isn’t around to check them, they often embellish and skew things. I wish people would stop taking every word that every characters says as 100% accurate. People don’t talk that way. Memories fail, things get forgotten or mis remembered, and some people just plain make things up. Like Vader betraying and murdering Luke’s father. Whatever Bail told Leia was close enough to the truth, but what she said doesn’t have to be the literal history.
Exactly.
George once described the key differences between the two:
“I didn’t want to do the craziness or, as someone once described it, the ‘effervescent giddiness’, of the first film. I knew the story eventually had to go to a dark place, so I purposely darkened it down. I realised early on that the original trilogy was a plot driven, fable. The new trilogy is a history, a backstory, a personal dossier of all these characters.”
The Prequels are the more exact facts of what happened during the rise of the Empire and Anakin’s fall and the Originals are more relying the history of what happened from different points of view to Luke and everyone else. It will get muddled as twenty years takes place between the two trilogies. Only R2-D2 knows exactly what happened.
Check out Season Two: Episode 10 of The Clone Wars. It’s addressed there.
I agree as for a few years I haven’t been able to read or watch Harry Potter in the same way as I kept thinking about her actions but like you said it’s important to seperate art from artist. I don’t necessarily hate her as she is human and maybe eventually she’ll grow but if not I can focus on the things I do like about her. Like Rupert Grint said recently she’s like an auntie to him but it doesn’t mean he has to agree with her on everything. That’s pretty much how I see her. I very much oppose her problematic views but she’s also done things I can appreciate. I’m also slowly finding I still enjoy Harry Potter but I also can’t defend certain aspects of it. So it’s both give and take when it comes to her and Harry Potter. There’s more good in the series overall than there is bad I find. It should be interesting to see how my viewing of Philosopher’s Stone goes when I watch it again as I bought it today.
That sounds amazing! Avatar: The Last Airbender has been on my to watch list for a long time now as it reminds me of my own story I’m writing on the surface and the way you describe it but you’re pushing it to the top of my to watch list. I may have to give it a go after I complete Pokemon XY and Mad About You.
That’s some of why I appreciate George’s take on the Prequels but probably more so in the context we’re discussing the Sequels he had in mind. His ideas continued to expand the lore and what a Star Wars film could be. I don’t find that to be the case in the Sequels we ended up with as they feel like they’re doing the same exact things we’ve seen before but they can be a moderately fun time on their own. I find they’re modern retro stories for a lack of better wording. However I expect more from these stories. George designed each of his six films to be different but to play off of one another in a way where they could be their own thing individually but the bigger picture story became clearer when watched as a collective whole as I-VI.
Absolutely. I think George’s only intentions were to make a lived in universe and make something that has a cultural heritage and history to it. He studied anthropology when in college. He lives and breathes understanding why we as a society and individual make the choices we do. I think the first six films truly show that. I don’t think he had any ill intentions with any of the characters you mentioned or even the Tusken Raiders. He was just making something that would help the stories stay grounded in some kind of reality. Ahmed Best has spoken of this before and I have no doubt if he had a problem with the way Jar Jar was portrayed he would have spoken up to George about it. He also called him a generous collaborator. So I think George would’ve listened if he got the impression he was being insensitive but I don’t think he was. It’s a science fantasy fairytale fable and he treated it as such.
Sequel hate and prequel apologia - name a better combination!
So Uncivilized should be tossed in the same bin as Fandom Menace. A more eloquent and educated Fandom Menace member, but Fandom Menace nonetheless. I haven’t trusted them since they sang the praises of that video that “debunked” How Star Wars was Saved in the Edit.
I enjoy his videos but it’s good we can’t all agree. I’d also say the dubunking video isn’t wrong. Marcia Lucas has said as much in Howard Kazanjian’s book. I highly recommend it. It was all a collaboration between different creatives.
I’d say the debunk contained a few too many personal attacks, but yeah, the Rocketjump original really went too far in the “OT succeeded in spite of Lucas” narrative. It’s the subtle influence of the Plinkett Reviews on Star Wars discourse (which sucks, honestly).
I disagree with So Uncivilized on pretty much every aspect of their arguments, as I’ve grown to truly despise “prequel apologia.” It’s how we get things like Lucas Worship (an over-correction of the highest order) and Star Wars Theory’s batshit ideas about armies of Maul and Grievous clones. It’s better to have a more balanced view of the PT that doesn’t descend into pure apologia to put down the ST.
Still, this person’s stuff isn’t as awful as Pop Culture Detective’s The Case Against the Jedi. The TL;DW of that one is “the PT is really sexist and George wrote his animosity towards women into the movies!” That’s a hilarious reach of ever there was one.
Absolutely. I understand what you mean in a lot of ways. I’m pretty much a defender of everything George ever made as I genuinely love all of his work throughout the years but at the same time I do see the flaws too. No artist is perfect afterall. I try to see things from his prospective when I watch his work like with any artist. I have my own personal view and then I also view things how the author intended for me to see them. I think personally George succeeded with the Prequels where the Sequels didn’t. I don’t hate the Sequels as much as some do though. I agree with most of the criticism but I don’t find the need to vilify them at the same time. It’s tricky as while I don’t hate them I don’t have much desire to keep up with Disney Star Wars. It’s just not what it used to be for me but I’m glad some can enjoy it. I wouldn’t want to take that away from them.
I think in short a lot of people don’t understand Star Wars like George told Gary Kurtz. However it’s all personal to the viewer and creators at the same time. Only George can truly say what is and isn’t Star Wars at the end of the day.
Sequel hate and prequel apologia - name a better combination!
So Uncivilized should be tossed in the same bin as Fandom Menace. A more eloquent and educated Fandom Menace member, but Fandom Menace nonetheless. I haven’t trusted them since they sang the praises of that video that “debunked” How Star Wars was Saved in the Edit.
I enjoy his videos but it’s good we can’t all agree. I’d also say the dubunking video isn’t wrong. Marcia Lucas has said as much in Howard Kazanjian’s book and Jonathan Rinzler discussed it in an interview with Rick Worley. I highly recommend both. It was all a collaboration between different creatives.
The Star Wars Sequels: Disney’s Anti-Trilogy
Stevie Nicks and Tom Petty - Stop Draggin’ My Heart Around
David Bowie - Let’s Dance
John Lennon - Borrowed Time
Gordon Lightfoot - If You Could Read My Mind
Added Pokemon: Indigo League - Season One, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, and Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone.
According to George:
“Early on, it was that Anakin had been more or less created by the midi-chlorians, and that the midi-chlorians had a very powerful relationship to the Whills [from the first draft of Star Wars], and the power of the Whills, and all that. I never really got a chance to explain the Whills part.”
https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-i-the-phantom-menace-oral-history
I think Dave Filoni’s work on Clone Wars, Rebels and Mandalorian season 1 is generally great. Either Jon Favreau or massive fan expectations or both have been a bad influence on him.
Or it’s Disney. The Clone Wars was George’s baby. So it was experimental and free of committee filmmaking. Rebels didn’t really have that high of expectations going in as the budget was significantly lower and there was disgruntlement over The Clone Wars being cancelled. Rebels just had to look and be like the Original Trilogy. It gradually incorporated the Prequels into the plot. It rarely felt like Disney meddled but it shows a couple of times. Namely with when Ezra plays with the Dark Side. It was overall a low risk, high reward show. I’ve not seen The Mandalorian but from what I’ve gathered the second season is more heavy on fan service. I’d also consider that season two didn’t come until after The Rise of Skywalker. They had to attempt to “save” fans. Plus both Jon and Dave seem to have good will with Disney. Especially Jon as he did deliver them the goods on Iron Man and setting up the Marvel Universe. They also gave him the live action Lion King film.
Disney will do whatever they feel will make a profit. It’s why the last episode before the current one out now had Mando go through the podrace track and other Easter eggs notable to The Phantom Menace. They’re targeting the Prequel generation now.
Fan service isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it depends on how it’s used. It should always serve the story in an organic way first and foremost.
Civilisation with Kenneth Clark.
It’s a profound miniseries that looks at Western civilisation through art. It was a groundbreaking series in 1969 and to this day is still one of the best portraits of history and how we see it. It’s very relevant to contemporary culture.
Hello all,
Excuse my ignorance but may I get some help walking me through what I need to look for when buying a Super 8 video camera and film stock? I’m very keen on exploring the world of analog filmmaking through purchasing a Super 8 at some point. However I’m not sure the best place to start.
I did see this attached thread on Reddit but I’m not sure how accurate the advice and tips are for what I’ll need.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cinematography/comments/bqcht5/help_with_buying_a_super_8_camera/
Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
I think the language/dialogue has a lot to do with it - particularly with Star Wars and Empire. Star Wars not only throws the audience into the middle of the adventure, it tosses around terms like ‘escape pods’ and ‘restraining bolts’ and ‘Bocce’…we’re hearing about the “binary language of Moisture Vaporators” like it’s completely normal/incidental. Tarkin speaks of the ‘Regional Governors’, Han owes money to someone called Jabba, power converters can be obtained at Tosche Station, and Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration. The universe is full and alive. Only the Lightsaber seems to get an explanation - everything else is casually referenced as if everyone knows that losing the ‘lateral controls’ could be chancey during a dogfight.
I haven’t really thought about this in terms of the PT/ST though. Interesting…
Wonderful thread by the way!
I think the Prequels have it just as well as the Originals. Just in a slightly different way.
The Phantom Menace - We hear about the Angels on Iego from Anakin, we know the gungans don’t entirely like the surface dwellers on Naboo at first but we don’t know why, we learn about a race between Anakin and Sebulba before the one we see where Anakin crashed, and really if watched in sequence order we know R2-D2 is a R2 unit, we know C-3PO is a protocol droid meant to help out, and Anakin is destined to fulfill the prophecy talked about in lore the Jedi follow.
Attack of the Clones - We learn Qui-Gon’s master was Dooku, we learn Dooku left the Jedi Order, we learn Jango was recruited on the moons of Bogden, we learn Palpatine is staying in term long after it has expired but Padme contrasts this by giving up her position as queen to serve as a senator as shown, we hear a story of Cliegg Lars and company going to look for Shimi, we learn about Jedi trials, and we have Anakin and Obi-Wan discuss falling into a nest of gundarks in their adventures together.
Revenge of the Sith - We hear about Anakin and Obi-Wan dealing with some kind of business on Cato Neimoidia, Yoda talks about having good relations with the wookiees, we learn about Darth Plagueis being able to potentially influence Midi-Chlorians to create life alluding to Anakin - which ended of being the Whills and Midi-Chlorians in reality, and we learn some character could cheat death.
There’s more of course but it’s been awhile since I’ve watched them.
George alluded to the subtle differences:
“I didn’t want to do the craziness or, as someone once described it, the ‘effervescent giddiness’, of the first film. I knew the story eventually had to go to a dark place, so I purposely darkened it down. I realised early on that the original trilogy was a plot driven, fable. The new trilogy is a history, a backstory, a personal dossier of all these characters.”
There’s a history and story that takes place alongside the confines of the stories we are shown on screen as there’s things going on that we only ever hear about or maybe see later in The Clone Wars series. However in sticking with just the films it adds a sense of realness and authenticity to the world building and characters. The Sequels have a couple of moments like this but not to the scale or scope of the first six films where there’s more going on and a real history to it. It really hurt things not having a time gap between the films. It really limited what could happen off screen and character motivations.