Stardust1138

I’d say that’s very likely as Bob Iger was involved in the decision to kill off Han.

“Disney’s CEO, Bob Iger, said he was consulted by Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy and director J.J. Abrams about the decision to kill Han Solo before Star Wars: The Force Awakens was made.”

“We had a big debate about Han Solo,” Iger said. “Should he die or not? It was a decision made by Kennedy and Abrams, but I got involved.”

https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/4/16418218/star-wars-han-solo-bob-iger-disney

I vaguely recall Harrison Ford also saying Han would die in George’s Episode VII. George himself said Luke would die in his Episode IX after rebuilding the Jedi Order and that Leia would still be alive and elected Supreme Chancellor. I think it would’ve played out differently than what we got as context would be vastly different. George didn’t just kill characters off to be edgy. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dying in the first two trilogies serves the narrative in the subsequent two films in their trilogies. In what we got Han and Luke dying has no weight as they’re glossed over and don’t serve any true narrative purposes.

"According to composer James Newton Howard, his friend and a longtime contributor at Lucasfilm Lawrence Kasdan, a man who is a credited writer on some of the studios biggest films such as The Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Return of the Jedi, The Force Awakens, and Solo, will be directing a six-episode docuseries on Lucas and ILM.

This was revealed on the Score: The Podcast where Howard said that he had just finished scoring the documentary."

https://collider.com/george-lucas-docuseries-ilm-lawrence-kasdan/

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/10-james-newton-howard-says-be-great-at-making-a-demo/id1357882784?i=1000534709423

As the late great Jonathan Rinzler said in his interview with Rick Worley, George was there in the editing room with the team and part of the crafting of what it became. Every final decision with the film came down to him. As well as sometimes even George was talked out of his good ideas as Marcia relates in the book that Brian De Palma thought George should take out references to “May the Force be with you” in the first film. It was Marcia who convinced George that he should include them. Just like on the Prequels it was Ron Howard who helped a certain moment in the podrace to create further tension. Star Wars has always been a collaborative venture but it all came down to George in the old days. He had final say and depending on your certain point of view that was for better or worse. I miss him greatly and after these latest developments I’m starting to find further acceptance in knowing I’m not alone in my feelings.

I tend to give George the majority of the credit whenever I pay my dues for whose most responsible for Star Wars because so often I see the narrative that he was never talented and the Prequels prove it. I just don’t see that at all. I see both his trilogies as collaborations and George as the leader who rallied everyone to fulfill his vision that he started and in some cases they expanded upon. I think he’s extremely talented. His creativity knows no bounds. It’s truly endless and filled with wonder. I see both the Prequels and Originals as flawed as I get older and can view things objectively but I still love them both completely, and in some cases I love them more than when I was a kid. I think often it’s when one grew up or what order one is exposed to the saga that determines what they consider to be Star Wars. We each have a generational tale and in some cases we fall in the middle. I think that’s some of why I can look at the first two trilogies as one of the same. They’re different from each other but they’re from one creator. I can see endless through lines and connections.

The same can be said for the kids who grew up with the Sequels. It’s what they know Star Wars to be. It may not feel like Star Wars to some of us older fans or even George and Marcia but it is to them as they haven’t been exposed to objective reasoning yet. They’re not restricted in their thinking yet of what something can and can’t be. I think that’s similar to how the older fans that do like them tend to view things. They tend to see the films as a pew pew adventure that have familiar elements to the three films they grew up with while others like me who love the Prequels and also the Originals view it as a collective whole of both trilogies that came before it. In turn I think we tend to be the most disappointed by the trilogy because it feels like everything we see Star Wars as was forgotten for familiarity on the surface level with the original three films while the other part of what we loved was ignored. To us they tend to forget the context and established rules that the Prequels expanded upon and added to the story the Originals told. In some cases it’s even things we feel the Sequels ignored in way of the Originals.

No one group is wrong and that’s a good thing but at the end of the day what George says is Star Wars to me is what the final word should aspire to continue and expand upon. At least I think with the Sequels. They should’ve given closure to his stories before moving onto different interpretations.

I loved that excerpt from Marcia. It’s great having her come out to tell her story and what matters to her. I really admire that like George she was concerned about raising her children. I can honestly see after today entirely why George was in love with her. She seems like such a warm hearted, fiery, and honest person. It really contrasts George who tends to be more reserved and a bigger picture thinker. They’re both warm hearted and because of that we got the makings of a beautiful story that continues to resonate with us and grow beyond us. It all started with one man though and she’s quick to point it out.

Thank you for including the videos. I was thinking about that first one today but wasn’t sure where I had first seen it. I look forward to revisiting it in a new light and viewing the second one. I’ve not seen it.

Marcia Lucas spoke about this in Jonathan Rinzler’s Howard Kazanjian book. She debunks the narrative that she is the sole reason for “saving” the film. It was all a collaborative process and George was very much involved in piecing it all together.

Marcia Lucas gives her honest thoughts on The Phantom Menace and the Sequels.

oojason, exactly! While The Last Jedi isn’t perfect with the transition between it and The Force Awakens it at least continues the narrative established. The Rise of Skywalker just feels like a reset as Rey goes through the same trials and tribulations she overcame in The Last Jedi. People often talk about how the Throne Room in The Last Jedi rips off straight from Return of the Jedi but don’t mention how The Rise of Skywalker does the very same thing when Rey confronts Palpatine. Dark Rey is more or less the equivalent to the mirror cave. It goes on and on. The Rise of Skywalker feels like J.J. was continuing the story he felt should’ve happened after The Force Awakens with a few tweaks to accommodate things that couldn’t be undone like Luke’s death.

Omni, I can’t wait to read this book. She also gives her thoughts on the Prequels. It should be a great read. I agree with her. I like Kathleen Kennedy. Just not always with Star Wars. There’s no disputing she’s had a great career as a producer. However as president of Lucasfilm I don’t think she’s the right person to head the company. I agree with her about Han. I think what she’s saying is spot on. There’s no consequences or payoff from Han’s death. They played a little with it in The Last Jedi but only on face value versus delving into how it haunts Kylo. I guess you could say The Rise of Skywalker does a little with his redemption but the context is jumbled up. The same could be said with Luke’s death. It has no consequence on the story. I agree with her about Rey. We don’t know anything about her as she’s surrounded in mystery and how she comes to use the Force is very inconsistent with established rules and lore.

Her comments abou Luke, Leia, and Han remind me of this exchange from George and Lawrence Kasdan.

Kasdan: I think you should kill Luke and have Leia take over.

Lucas: You don’t want to kill Luke.

Kasdan: Okay, then kill Yoda.

Lucas: I don’t want to kill Yoda. You don’t have to kill people. You’re a product of the 1980s. You don’t go around killing people. It’s not nice.

Kasdan: No, I’m not. I’m trying to give the story some kind of an edge to it.

Lucas: I know you’re trying to make it more realistic, which is what I tried to do when I killed Ben—but I managed to take the edge off of it—and it’s what I tried to do when I froze Han. But this is the end of the trilogy and we’ve already established that there are real dangers. I don’t think we have to kill anyone to prove it.

Kasdan: No one has been hurt.

Lucas: Ben and Han, they’ve both—Luke got his hand cut off.

Kasdan: Ben and Han are fine. Luke got a new hand two cuts later.

Lucas: By killing somebody, I think you alienate the audience.

Kasdan: I’m saying that the movie has more emotional weight if someone you love is lost along the way; the journey has more impact.

Lucas: I don’t like that and I don’t believe that.

Kasdan: Well, that’s all right.

Lucas: I have always hated that in movies, when you go along and one of the main characters gets killed. This is a fairytale. You want everybody to live happily ever after and nothing bad happens to anybody.

Kasdan: I hate it when characters get killed, too.

Lucas: Oh, you do.

Kasdan: I do.

Lucas: I resent it and I resented it when I was a little kid. I would watch and there would be these five guys and one of them would be the funny clown and halfway through, one of them gets killed. Why did they kill the lead? He was the best character.

Marquand: I felt that about Ben the first time I saw Star Wars.

Kasdan: But that one worked like crazy.

Lucas: Yes, I know. But we’ve done that. The same thing with Han. The biggest reaction we got was when people asked, “How can you leave the movie half finished?” Well, the main thrust of this one is that it has to be fun.

Kasdan: All of our material here is not fun.

Lucas: Well, I know we’ve got the serious side.

Kasdan: We have a lot of grim stuff here.

Lucas: Well, that’s why we have to concentrate on the fun.

Kasdan: There isn’t much fun stuff. There is the Jabba stuff.

Lucas: That’s fun.

Kasdan: And the Ewok stuff and that’s it.

Lucas: There are three parts to the movie: Jabba, the Ewoks, and Luke and the Emperor. Luke and the Emperor are not fun and the other two are. I think that we can roll along with the fun parts and still have this undercurrent of a fairly serious study of father and son, and good and evil. The whole concept of the original film is that Luke redeems his father, which is the classic fairytale: a good father/bad father who the good son will turn back into the good father. We can have a serious line and still have a fairly light film.

The whole point of the film, the whole emotion that I am trying to get at the end of this film, is for you to be real uplifted, emotionally and spiritually, and feel absolutely good about life. That is the greatest thing that we could possibly ever do.

Rest in Peace Jimmy Greaves, a true football legend for England and both Chelsea and Tottenham.

JadedSkywalker said:

It didn’t feel out of character of the Vader we see in Revenge of the Sith who cut down younglings. It doesn’t fit Vader in the original film though.

I find it to be more equivalent to the cutting down of the Separatist leaders on Mustafar as we never actually see him cut down the younglings. In the former sense it does work.

My problem with it is more to do with that he’s supposed to be more machine than man. His movements are very fluid for someone who has each limb as mechanical. He’s much more restricted in his fights with Obi-Wan and Luke versus what is showed in the hallway. I also don’t feel it fits his character as by the time of A New Hope he’s overcompensating with intimidation and fear through force. Pun not intended. Haha. He’s grown into his role as an enforcer through fear compared to where he was when he pledged himself to the Sith. At that point he was doing what he thought was right to save the ones he loved. He would’ve done anything at that point but that changed when he believed he lost everything. He realised he couldn’t go back to what he was before and continued his commitment to the Dark Side.

BedeHistory731 said:

I think the hallway scene is the worst part of that already-awful movie. It just feels like a slasher movie bit got stuck in the wrong series. I tend to dislike people who like that scene, especially the ones who want roughly two hours of it in an “R-rated horror movie.” I also find that a certain crowd that likes this scene also enjoy harassing people who worked on the ST, so…

R1 fails the “eight deadly words” for me. Not even AOTC and TROS did that.

It’s my least favourite scene in the film too. However overall I really like the film. It’s a toss up between Rogue One and The Last Jedi as my favourite film of this era.

My unpopular Rogue One opinion is that I prefer the beginning of the film to the ending. I love the scenes on Jedha and with Chirrut the most. It feels like a sacred place with a history of origins and connections to a bygone era. Chirrut is also a very intriguing character. I like that he’s blind as I too have vision issues. However what I don’t like most is the CGI characters. They’re not enough for me to hate the film but they’re the one aspect I’m not entirely sure how I feel.

Added:

Essential Fellini

Added the Essential Fellini Criterion box set and The Sea Hawk.

Servii said:

and shows that even our heroes are people that fail

I just want to say, the OT already did this whole “heroes are fallible people, too” theme, just with more subtlety. Luke is constantly vulnerable throughout the trilogy, fails constantly in ESB, and has to be rescued at the climax of all three movies. By RotJ, he’s presenting himself as this big hero, but he’s still struggling with doubt and fear over the course of the movie. His victory in the end is very much a personal, spiritual one (rather than a glorious, material victory), which required him to “surrender” himself and take a leap of faith. It’s an unconventional end to a hero’s journey.

Exactly. I think that’s one aspect of George’s planned Sequels that intrigues me the most. Luke would have stood up by the the end of the trilogy as restorer of the Jedi Order. He would’ve had his material victory after failing at first. It’s interesting to consider as it makes a compelling reason why his Jedi Order may have failed at first. He wasn’t ready for the mantel after being helped so many times as even within the trilogy that was the case with the Solowalker daughter bringing him out of his rut. I like the idea of her inheriting the mantel of Jedi Master for all she does to help Luke find his way after he passes on and how she is central in defeating Darth Maul and Datth Talon. It shows that we can’t accomplish things alone. Sometimes we need someone to help us. It’s a very core and main Star Wars theme. It makes me wonder though where the Solowalker son comes into all of this as he succumbs to the Dark Side.

I think it would’ve worked just fine for Luke and the Solowalker daughter to both have central roles in the trilogy. It doesn’t have to take away from the new characters to give Luke a bigger role to play. This goes for both George’s Sequels and the ones we were given.

It’s interesting to consider as it probably wouldn’t have gone exactly like this but it does make me consider lines that may have been drawn through the Trilogy that connect to the previous trilogies without stepping on top of them.

The Jedi were always important to the Republic as they settled conflicts and disputes as peacekeepers before the Clone War. It’s just they lost their way through mainly the war but through compliancy that was shown to have been there in the years prior. Palpatine’s deception also made it appear they weren’t needed. I mean it goes without saying as Luke was the Jedi figure within the Rebel Alliance as Obi-Wan would’ve been on Alderaan if they had been able to deliver to Bail the Death Star plans. The Rebels were just more focused on bringing down the Empire than Jedi affairs. That’s even the role Luke took within their ranks as with the Rebels being a Jedi was second to the common goal they shared. He was seen as Commamder Skywalker to the Rebels. The Jedi and Republic/Rebel Alliance are very much mutually connected but it’s not the focal point at the time of the Galactic Civil War. The question more so is how they would work together after the end of the Empire when everything is in flux.

Erich Korngold’s score for The Sea Hawk was an influence on the score for A New Hope.

https://indianapublicmedia.org/ethergame/sea-4.php

I also see seeds of the sampled score years later on Duel of the Fates.

The swashbuckler in general was a major influence.

I’d also add to the thought about Snoke and the First Order.

“If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise.”

To me the line implies Luke would’ve come out of exile in J.J.'s version of Episode VIII and rebuilt the Jedi Order over the course of the film and possibly Episode IX too. I could see Rey helping too.

J.J. said he was surprised most by and in his own words how dark Luke was portrayed in The Last Jedi. Daisy also said his plans were vastly different from what we got.

We know in George’s Sequels he planned to have Luke rebuild the Jedi throughout the trilogy and equally there’s a snippet of Rick Carter in The Force Awakens behind the scenes documentary talking about as the trilogy goes along that we’d discover the true nature of the Force or something like that. I remember also Kathleen Kennedy saying they merely changed the history and order of George’s ideas but didn’t make wholesale changes. Maybe at the time that was true but it doesn’t always add up either in light of Bob Iger’s book.

It seems to me like there were too many clashing visions and ideas floated around. It seems like they may or may not have originally planned to follow more of George’s plan with the Jedi and the Force through his and J.J.'s ideas. However they decided to let Rian start fresh away from these notes or whatever it was J.J. wrote out. Rian did talk about asking to be given a clean slate from notions J.J. came up with. He was granted permission.

It seems like he had nobody to reel it all in to create continuity and consistency with The Force Awakens and vise versa. It seemed to be what the Story Group was set up to do but they didn’t bat an eye or notice the inconsistenciess. It ended up being like a relay race instead.

There’s honestly too much misinformation about the process to know what is and isn’t true with what was the plan and wasn’t the plan. The films reflect as much as there’s no real set ups and payoffs that feel earned throughout each of the three films.

Switched at Birtb.

It’s been such a compelling and interesting series. It’s very groundbreaking in that it tells the story of two girls who were switched at birth. One is hearing and one is deaf. There’s one episode that’s entirely told through sign language and subtitles. It really explores class and social issues in a very grounded way. The characters are all so well written. It never feels like one of the two girls is getting more attention than the other as they balance it out very well. I highly recommend it.

Did I mention that Lorraine McFly aka Lea Thompson is one of the main characters?

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake

https://youtu.be/lL-RfE-ioJ8

https://www.starwars.com/news/knights-of-the-old-republic-remake

Tatyana Petrova - Angel

https://youtu.be/P-H6l3MsvTw

The Smiths - There Is A Light That Never Goes Out

https://youtu.be/siO6dkqidc4

Chris de Burgh - The Lady in Red

https://youtu.be/te9IWhXJvQo

JadedSkywalker said:

Lucas is the consummate control freak and perfectionist. The idea he would write a story and hand it over to someone else to mangle is frankly ridiculous. He could have only done it if he had decided to move on. Because he could just as easily have not sold Lucasfilm and filmed episode 7 himself and handed off film 8 and 9 to other directors while producing them and co-plotting the screenplays.

Especially considering how shrewd he was to hold onto the sequel rights and the control of these films in the first place with FOX, i find it hard to believe he was tricked by Iger somehow. I just don’t think he was all that interested he wanted to open a museum and enjoy retirement.

Lucas had like 7 years in between episode III and the sale. He spent all this time on Clone Wars the cartoon and the unmade underworld tv series, time he could have spent at least writing and getting episode 7 out the door. I submit he was more interested in the prequel era, if he was so excited about continuing Luke’s story he had from 1984 to 2012 in which to resume it. He never did. The prequels robbed us of direct sequels as did general lack of interest on George’s part. If the prequel era interested him that much and consumed him, who is to tell him no. He created Star Wars.

And finally even when he handed off to Disney he knew the movie sequels he wanted to make were a continuation and extension of the prequels, and that the fans would have hated them. And Disney rightly or wrongly also made the same judgement on those treatments that they were sequels to the prequels and not the OT, and weren’t going to spend billions of dollars on some weird non commercial midichlorian movie.

I see the complete opposite. I see someone who is very passionate about having their vision accurately portrayed. He himself has referred to his belief in the auteur theory. If he was truly egotistical he would’ve made Episode VII (he briefly considered) and then sold the company. He didn’t and I can’t blame the guy for believing in his vision. I also can’t blame him for being wary of having anyone else creating stories in his sandbox. Similar to how J.R.R. Tolkien was wary of Disney having the rights to his books. Authors are passionate and protective over their work.

To me The Clone Wars was his passion project to break into television. He also began writing his treatments for the sale in 2011. This is right after Darth Maul makes his return and we know he was the big bad. I think he was planting seeds in some ways of connecting the series and era to his Sequels. Whether it be with Darth Maul or the Yoda arc exploring the more metaphysical side of the Force or even the mystery of Sifo-Dyas. They were seeds planted I think to create lines.

The reason Underworld didn’t get made was because of cost. They were waiting for it to go down. It’s a shame as the series and 1313 would’ve been very intriguing looks at the galaxy that I don’t think we’ll see under Disney.

Mark Hamill also has the story in the 80’s of George asking him to return in 2011 and that the Sequels could end in another plane of existence. There’s also Steven Spielberg saying in the 90’s that part of George’s concept for the Sequels was rooted in doing the first three and then the Prequels to that.

I see his Sequels as a continuation of both the Prequels and Originals. I see something that would’ve brought both trilogies together while giving us something new to contemplate.

It’s hard to say if the fans would hate them as The Clone Wars was vastly popular. Not every fan hated the Prequels and the kids who grew up with them were coming of age. Same with the return of Luke, Leia, and Han. I think his Sequels would’ve done just fine.

Ultimately it wasn’t to be and I’m still trying to accept that.

RogueLeader, he didn’t have to but I respect his choice as ultimately he wanted to raise his daughter. I also really admire him donating the profits he made from the sell to philanthropy. I ultimately wish Disney had handled things differently. If they had just come right out and said they had chosen to go down a different path than what George intended as they wanted to make something they felt fans would enjoy more it may have gone down slightly better. Instead we were lead to believe his stories were still being used with only a few departures. It may have hurt as a devoted fan of George’s Star Wars but I think it would’ve created a lot less animosity between the fans and creators as they’d go in expecting something different than George’s style. I could be wrong on that but that’s at least how I feel to an extent.

I hope one day they release George’s complete Sequel Trilogy treatment.

BedeHistory731, definitely. It would’ve been great to see a natural progression that still very much feels like Star Wars.

I can respect that. The way you also talk about Avatar definitely makes me want to give it a chance as I’ve only seen maybe one or two episodes.

There’s definitely some formality to it. I think it’s just learning about George’s Sequel plans that kind of disrupted that for me. I definitely am finding that satisfying conclusion feeling to the first six films if I just forget everything that comes afterwards as I’m back to being a kid creating my own stories of what happens next.

That’s interesting. I was just reading too that he was getting increasingly ill and that’s why he brought others on board. I do wonder if his deteriorating health played any part in these things. We’ll probably never know for sure.

Thank you. I wish you could too. Haha. However that’s okay as at the end of the day we’re both Star Wars fans. We just have different views on the franchise. I’m sure we’d find more common ground than differences if we were to discuss the Originals. Hopefully in time I’ll be able to enjoy the Sequels more. I’m definitely excited to play the Crait and Takodana levels in the Lego game. So here’s hoping!

Same here. This forum is great for respectful debate that rarely I find turns completely sour. We may not always agree but I appreciate and enjoy reading your point of view. Afterall many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on it. Haha

I respectfully disagree. I don’t really see George as someone who was trying to max out on profits with the Prequels. I see what he did as giving endless creativity to collectors and recouping his investment in order to stay independent. He had to make his investment back in more ways than just the films. It’s the complete opposite of what Disney did with X-Wings and TIE Fighters. They made everything look like the Original Trilogy as they wanted to make something that they felt was Star Wars. It may look like it to some extent but I don’t think it entirely feels like it.

They did carry over a few things but it’s the execution of the ideas that seems to be vastly different. I never saw midi-chlorians as a weakness to the story. I think they add an extra layer when you consider the Whills angle. I equally don’t mind the political storybeats as Star Wars has always been political. I honestly don’t see the criticisms of the Prequels as detrimental to my enjoyment of them.

I would have been right there with you completely if the story that George started didn’t feel incomplete. The difference from my estimate and I could be completely wrong is that Gene Roddenberry got to tell his stories before someone else came into the picture to expand his work or he at least was still involved in some way. I’ve never been the biggest Star Trek fan but I have enjoyed Next Generation in the times I’ve watched it. I’d probably feel differently if I were more invested in the original series.

It’s all ultimately subjective. No one answer is correct but I do think the original creator no matter who they are should be given the chance to complete their life’s work. Unfortunately life doesn’t always go the way we want it to and this is a case of that.

I recommend these videos as they touch on the subject of the poetry angle to a degree.

https://youtu.be/Btp1BoGbuiM

https://youtu.be/NvlWSsZwLn0

https://youtu.be/gUKvHwjcfIQ

It’s more than a repetitive device. It’s about creating links between the two trilogies of two different generations of people and a family. They’re one of the same yet different from each other. The Original Trilogy on its own really follows the trajectory. Mind you it’s to a lesser extent but it’s there. The trilogy has lots of parallels within its own narrative. IV and VI correlate in certain ways. Just as V and VI do. The Prequels do it within their own narrative as well. It’s not about copying but creating moments that are poetic yet different from each other. Just like written poetry. The Sequels tried but ended up copying and pasting a lot of the time. The Last Jedi I find gets closest to getting it right in connecting the whole saga together. It doesn’t fully but it does succeed at times.

I’d prefer the final word in the Skywalker saga being George’s vision and having what comes after it beginning the process of creating something new and more experimental. It can mix it up and go in different directions as it’s not beholden to the established rules of the saga films. I would have welcomed new takes and spins with open arms as the story that was intended as a nine part saga was completed as the original author intended.

It honestly doesn’t bother me when creators of work go in a different direction than that of what fans want. They’re not there to please us. It’s when someone else has a responsibility to continue a story that I have a problem. It’s the difference between one vision and that of a corporation in a way. One does it for the joy of telling their own tale, while the other does it to max out on profits.

I wish I had more of a favourable view of the Sequels like you do. The only time I find I do is when I see them as disconnected from George’s story. As their own thing they are pretty enjoyable popcorn flicks but as a conclusion to what he started I find they don’t work for me. Star Wars was always a collection of art films with aspects of popcorn flicks to entertain. I find they’re now just the latter and nothing more.

I’m not saying a Palpatine can’t. I’m just saying within the framework of established rules that it comes off as a lack of care was given to what came before it. Palpatine never had these parallels in the Prequels or Originals. However if they established right away that Rey was her own character with her own sense of self with some parallels to Palpatine then it could’ve worked much better. Like say how Anakin and Leia and Padme and Luke are one of the same. They share many of the same personality traits and qualities but they also have very clear motivations and sense of self. They’re paralleled and connected but it doesn’t stop them from being their own characters. They remain their own people. The same could be said if they showed Rey as a Palpatine from the very beginning and then you find she rejects it all in favour of a different path than that of the Dark Side. She becomes just Rey.

If you don’t have rules within your narrative and story then you create a lack of cohesiveness and consistency throughout the story. The story will eventually run its course and will have nowhere else to go. It’s just as important to respect what came before as it is about expanding upon the story.

That’s the key though as within the fandom it’s okay to pick and choose. There’s no wrong way to enjoy Star Wars from a fan’s prospective. However the fandom and storyteller are separate entities. As storytellers you don’t fall prey to what the audience wants you to make. However it’s just as important to follow the rules of the universe and going from there. It’s about finding a natural progression and middle ground that doesn’t contradict what came before it.

BedeHistory731 said:

It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing.

So just because she’s a Palpatine, she should be denied all of those parallels? That seems too prejudicial. We should be able to overcome our “nature” and arrive to a point of heroicism. I think it’s cruel to deny the character that and call it “sickening.”

They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars.

Overcoming one’s nature and rejecting your negative heritage is a fair tale/happily ever after to me.

That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films.

…and that’s the way it should be. Right down to retconning big chunks of bad prequel lord away.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars.

I’d agree, but I would have appreciated a retcon for Midichlorians.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.

Nah. Many of us still believe in the OT and want good things for the franchise. The ST was better than what we got with the PT (my opinion) and the lore is trending in an OK direction. It’s as healthy as it was in the PT era, with writers exploring different directions.

If anything, Star Wars is like Sonic. The OT is the Genesis/Mega Drive games, while the PT is the Adventure/Heroes series, and the ST is Generations or Mania. Generations/Mania have hope for a modernized version of the classic style, (which is well done for SW and Sonic, I’d argue). This would mean that The Force Unleashed is ‘06, but TFU is a terrible addition to canon.

It’s not really prejudice, it’s more accepting what is the established rules and trajectory of the story and that the parallels that came before it are part of this. If they gave Rey her own sense of self and own motivations then it could’ve worked much better I think. As it stands now they gave her parallels because of nostalgia and nothing more. I would’ve been accepting of Rey Skywalker if she remained Random because the argument of her being a “No One” could be paired with the idea she found identity in the generation of Skywalkers before her and their shared experiences as she too had humble origins. Despite how meta it is I find it kind of works since it didn’t tip over to mixing up with established characters but her own character, and the character happens to parallel the family who came before her.

I don’t think so because that’s putting your own sensibilities into the story and not respecting what came before. Whether one likes or doesn’t like the Prequels should remain irrelevant. It’s about respecting all of Star Wars and not just picking and choosing the pieces of the story that best suit the storyteller. It’s about accepting the creator (George) had a story and following the rules he created for his universe. The Clone Wars is the perfect example of respecting what he created as it expands the scope and possibilities of what Star Wars can be. The Prequels for that matter are the other side of the story when it comes to the Original Trilogy. They’re one of the same. They’re just different from each other. George didn’t want Rebels versus Empire 2.0. He wanted to create something fresh and new. Yet at the same time it respects the story he established before and adds new layers to it. It’s not always smooth and perfect but it’s his story.

I don’t find it healthy to be retrained to the Original Trilogy for source material. There’s a whole other trilogy and countless books to gather from. Star Wars needs to respect what came before and not cherry pick when it comes to what George created just because someone may not like parts of the story.

At the end of the day it’s not George’s story anymore but I do feel there should be a responsibility to respect what came from him as without him we wouldn’t be here right now. It may not be smooth or perfect but the effort is what counts.

Star Wars was a classical story but is now like many works wearying towards something that is similar to post modernism. I don’t necessarily find this a good thing as far as Star Wars is concerned. To me it always had its unique place in the cultural threshold. It’s subjective though like all of art.

I’ll always prefer and defend the Prequels to the Sequels. Growing up I loved both the Prequels and Originals equally. So in a way I have nostalgic feelings about both but it’s more complicated than that. I can see some flaws in the Prequels now but I can also point them out in the Originals. No Star Wars movie has ever been perfect and that includes Empire.

I really have no problem with the Prequels “ruining” mysteries in the Originals as to me personally they add to experience and the story is meant to be watched I-VI.

Yoda using a lightsaber is meant to echo his words of war not making one great. How does he know if he didn’t experience it?

You see Palpatine’s overconfidence on full display when he thinks he’s defeated Yoda in the Senate Chamber. This foreshadows his downfall.

“His fate will be the same as ours.” Welp! Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine all three did die on a Death Star.

Anakin and Luke learn the same lessons in their first and second film but ultimately make a different choice when it comes to their third film. However the beautiful thing about Return of the Jedi is that it’s the coming together of both their choices and destinies to destroy the Sith and Palpatine. So Anakin has another chance to get it right.

You don’t really get these and other experiences if you watch them IV-VI, I-III. You may get the shock value of the reveals in Empire but there’s more to Star Wars than that. It has grown and evolved into something bigger than these story points.

Another reason though it’s more complicated is because I was genuinely really invested in the Sequels. The first year or two for the most part I really loved The Force Awakens and loved Rey wholeheartedly. I truly related to her as our life experiences are very similar to each other. I didn’t think it would age as well as VIII and IX when they came out but I accepted its lack of original vision as I felt assured that’s what was coming next. I felt assured and trust that George’s story was still being used as Kathleen Kennedy said they only made a few departures. It made sense. The Last Jedi came and I felt a numbness and bad feeling that something was wrong. I didn’t hate the film but I didn’t love it either. It was vastly different from what I was hoping as I was thinking Rey would be a Skywalker in some way. Afterall we’re following the Skywalker family saga and George asked J.J. once about Darth Vader’s grandchildren. As time went along I was somewhere between accepting this isn’t George’s story and denial. Bob Iger’s book came and I felt hurt. Finally The Rise of Skywalker came and the moment we see Rey’s parents leaving her on Jakku I was finding peace. I told myself this isn’t George’s story and that’s okay. It was then revealed she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter and my heart sank. Leaving the film I had a fun time despite all of the nostalgia and feeling that something was off with Rey.

In the end and two years onwards I really don’t think I hate the Sequels. I don’t love them either. They’re something that gave me a roller coaster of emotions and some really fun experiences. I look back to that moment in The Rise of Skywalker when we see Rey’s parents and think to myself there was a moment of acceptance of this trilogy for what it is and that’s not George’s story but it’s okay. It ultimately passed the moment they made her related to Palpatine. It’s sickening having her related to a toxic male with no redeeming qualities and who George himself referred to as the devil. It’s sickening seeing how clearly it opened up all of the parallels with the Skywalker family and even Obi-Wan and knowing they meant absolutely nothing. They were just put there for nostalgia. She may declare she’s a Skywalker but it fails to me because of who she really is and the contextual issues it creates. It doesn’t feel like a happily ever after fairy tale like Return of the Jedi but real world sensibilities being injected into Star Wars. That’s ultimately the biggest problem with this trilogy. It’s not growing, expanding, or progressing the story forward but telling us what the writers see Star Wars as and to them it will always be the first three films. It is its detriment as it restrains what Star Wars can be and how so much has come out since then that has expanded the universe.

I’ve made my peace with The Last Jedi most. I’m grateful that Rian at least acknowledged and incorporated the Prequels into his narrative as they’re part of the fabric of Star Wars. I may not always agree with his interpretation of what Star Wars is but I can at least tell he seems to like it all and wanted to expand the story.

In the end though Ahmed Best said it best. He said that Star Wars isn’t something we believe in anymore and that it’s falling more into the Han Solo side of the story instead of Luke Skywalker. I couldn’t agree more.