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SpacemanDoug

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3-Nov-2018
Last activity
4-Dec-2022
Posts
506

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Post
#1513756
Topic
List of films with lossless original tracks not available on Blu-ray or UHD
Time

jim_mar said:

Thank you, updated with your titles.

I’ve also added two more titles that I’ve found:

-Adventures in Babysitting, 1987 (Original lossless dolby stereo track) - blu-ray with 5.1
-Malcolm X, 1992 (Original lossless dolby stereo track) - blu-ray with 5.1

The original stereo mix for Star Trek: TMP is sort of available on 4K, the disk on the “complete adventure” set has it but only for the special longer version and is lossy (if you select the theatrical version you get the same previous 7.1 track)

Post
#1513551
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

I have made some side-by-side comparison between the US and Japanese LDs starting with the episode which has the most obvious audio changes, City on the Edge of Forever. I did encode both LDs with the exact same settings from my Pioneer player. Here’s a sample :

Picturewise, this is exactly the same transfer. Colors on the japanese release are a bit warmer, but this is the very same transfer. The exact same defects can be seen on both :

Surprisingly, the original “Goodnight Sweetheart” music has been kept on the Japanese LD, on both english and japanese tracks (even if the sleeve says the opposite).

There are some forced japanese subtitles here and there for scenes that haven’t been dubbed in Japan back in the 70s.

The Opening sequence looks like crap on the japanese LD and is from the second season. The original first season opening is on the bonus LD from the jap boxset.

The trailers are included AFTER each episode ending. Desilu/Paramount logos are not the same than on the US release. City on the edge have the Paramount zooming logo from 1968 whereas the US LD has the blue montain Paramount logo from the 70s.

The audio is of course much better on the japanese LD since its digital mono and can be transferred losslessly to a PC. The Japanese LDs also have chapters.

So yes, I would start from those japanese LDs, these are the only TOS release with the original digital mono sound.

Well, just from the scant details you included, the BR mono is the original. So the Japanese LD’s are not the only source.

Like I posted above, from what I can see from examining the audio streams, the original mono is preserved in the center channel of the 5.1 mix that first came out in 1999 in the 2 episode discs and then again in the clamshell box (which has Goodnight Sweetheart in City). The altered sounds are the mono sound, filtered and expanded to faux stereo, and added to the other channels in the mix to create a broader spacial feel to the sounds. They aren’t actually new sounds, but they are an alteration to the original, but the original is still there if you care to filter it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER6GsTr7I2o

This video is clearly taken from the 5.1 remix but has the OG visual effects, that “whoosh” at 0:25 is clearly a new sound effect and not the original 60s sound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGnTfg-MUhs
for reference, go to 0:24, this is the original 60s sound effect

Post
#1513295
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

Hi,
I find this topic very interesting in terms of preservation. I own pretty much any home video release of TOS (from 1999 US individual release, clamshell boxes PAL and NTSC, HDDVD, Blu Rays and also US and JAP LDs (only 1st season) as well TV recordings and French VHS). I made a backup of some episodes from the Laserdisc US release and will have a video coming comparing samples of the US and Jap releases.
I already noticed some changes like the sound of the phaser rifle in WNMHGB. The US LD release has this sound muted for some reason. Other releases starting from the DVD individual releases have put this sound back AND foreign language tracks also features this sound (and they’ve been untouched since their respective original broadcasts, at least for the french track).

The remix has an altered “whoosh” sound effect in the intro for the show compared to the original

Which intro? There were 4 (actually more, but most can’t hear the subtle difference in recordings). So WNMHGB, Season 1, Season 2, or Season 3?

I only got out Season 1 (because I only have the discs 1-8 and 40 of the 2 episode discs to compare the two DVD releases).

Every single one of them actually, I’m referring to whenever the ship flies by and the whoosh sound that occurs, it sounds far newer in the remix than the original mix

Post
#1513180
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

SpacemanDoug said:

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

Hi,
I find this topic very interesting in terms of preservation. I own pretty much any home video release of TOS (from 1999 US individual release, clamshell boxes PAL and NTSC, HDDVD, Blu Rays and also US and JAP LDs (only 1st season) as well TV recordings and French VHS). I made a backup of some episodes from the Laserdisc US release and will have a video coming comparing samples of the US and Jap releases.
I already noticed some changes like the sound of the phaser rifle in WNMHGB. The US LD release has this sound muted for some reason. Other releases starting from the DVD individual releases have put this sound back AND foreign language tracks also features this sound (and they’ve been untouched since their respective original broadcasts, at least for the french track).

The remix has an altered “whoosh” sound effect in the intro for the show compared to the original

You’re right. The opening in the laserdiscs and non-remastered DVDs have no swoosh.

I actually did hear comparisons of the original mono mixes vs. the remixes and the remixes definitely have new sound effects

Post
#1512959
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

PatrouilleduCosmos said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

Hi,
I find this topic very interesting in terms of preservation. I own pretty much any home video release of TOS (from 1999 US individual release, clamshell boxes PAL and NTSC, HDDVD, Blu Rays and also US and JAP LDs (only 1st season) as well TV recordings and French VHS). I made a backup of some episodes from the Laserdisc US release and will have a video coming comparing samples of the US and Jap releases.
I already noticed some changes like the sound of the phaser rifle in WNMHGB. The US LD release has this sound muted for some reason. Other releases starting from the DVD individual releases have put this sound back AND foreign language tracks also features this sound (and they’ve been untouched since their respective original broadcasts, at least for the french track).

The remix has an altered “whoosh” sound effect in the intro for the show compared to the original

Post
#1512705
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Please provide examples in the 2 non-Remastered DVD releases. Otherwise I will assume that the rest of the episodes are like WNMHGB and it is just enhancements to the mono track. And the DVD sets I’m referring to never had any 7.1 mixes, only 5.1. I think you are referring to the Remastered DVD set, which I had no use for so I never got. That only has the remastered episodes and those are indeed chock full of changes and additions where the partial 1999-2001 set I have and the complete 2004 clamshell set just have enhancements to the mono to make it feel stereo/surround (stereo was only on the 2004 set).

So 1999-2000 set the audio is 5.1 only
The 2004 set has 5.1 and 2.0 stereo (literally the same transfer as 1999-2001 with a stereo mixdown added)
The remastered DVD - I haven’t even checked
The Remastered BR - has the remastered versions and the original untouched episodes with original mono sound. It is a much higher quality transfer than the previous version. Crisper sound, full HD picture, improved colors more accurate to the original.

I would be interested to compare the LD video from US and Japan to these other transfers. I know the US LD and VHS used the same cover artwork so I would assume they have the same audio/video source (like so many releases at the time). The Japanese LD used to totally different source and would certainly be worth archiving.

I saw a DVD rip somewhere with the OG effects but with the 5.1 remixes and I noticed new sounds

I can’t provide them myself unfortunately

Post
#1512561
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

The remastered versions were made from a new transfer from the originals. The original version on the BR is the straight transfer after cleanup. All the changes are on the Remastered version.

The contents other channels in the surround mix is only music and sound FX. And they aren’t new, they are the originals. I can’t tell if they filtered them out of the original soundtrack or if they pulled out the tapes. My guess, from some of the volume changes is that it is filtered out of the original mono and then treated to a 4.1 channel mix to make the mono fill the space better. It isn’t actually stereo. you can tell it is just an effect to give the sound more body and presence. I’ve done that my self when including a mono track with stereo tracks to make it fit in better. I can’t hear any sound differences between the DVD surround center channel and the BR original mono.

As I look at the video, I have my doubts that they made a new transfer for the DVDs. It feels like it is the same master as the VHS/US LD. I don’t have either of those so I can’t compare them. But a lot of DVD’s that came out were from older masters. Video tape masters were high enough quality to make a good DVD release. A great many DVD releases in the 90’s were not new transfers. The DVD format alone makes older transfers look better. And coupled with some cleanup (which we know they did). But that is just supposition on my part. The colors in both DVD releases are more similar to the old VHS than to the BR. The DVD’s also match the source used for Trials and Tribbleations.

No there are definitely new sound effects in the 5.1/7.1 remixes

Post
#1512500
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

That is not quite accurate. I ripped the 2nd pilot from both DVD sources (already have the BD ripped). The original 1999 DVD release featured a 5.1 mix. Here is what it is. The original mono soundtrack as the center channel. Some sounds filtered to the left and right to create a stereo effect. Some sounds filtered to the surround and LFE channels. But the center channel is the original. The 2004 DVD clamshell set also has a stereo tack that has a stereo effect, likely just a mixdown of the surround as it has both 5.1 and 2.0. The remastered blu-ray set has a two channel mono soundtrack. There is a clear fidelity difference showing that the BR mono track came from a better source, using better equipment, or something else unique to get a crisper recorder. The video for the two DVD releases apppears to be identical there is a slight vertical adjustment, but the video and 5.1 tracks appear to be identical in every way.

Picture wise, the DVDs are an improvement over previous VHS and LD releases in the US. the Japanese LD set was a totaly different transfer using different techniques. Its quality compared to the US LD or DVD release would be comparably inferior to the BR image quality.

So to compare the sound for the original mono, you would need to extract the center channel out of the surround mix and the 2 channel mono from the BR. Also, BR discs have very high quality audio encoding and the audio track is sufficiently better quality that any possible loss is negligible.

so are the BD versions truly the original broadcast mono tracks or do they still have changes?

Post
#1512415
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

There were 2 DVD releases. Which one? What sound FX were added?

The initial DVDs are where the 5.1 mixes originated despite having the OG visual effects, there were 2.0 tracks included but they were stereo downmixes of the 5.1 track

The BDs are the first home video release since VHS to have any mono mixes, and I heard from a few fans that they still had a few of the newer sound effects from the remixes

Post
#1512337
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

SpacemanDoug said:

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

No. Star Trek has always been mono. Every version I have had. The Remastered is the first to have any stereo. There are some very clear shots were you can tell. As I said, having that TOS soundtrack collection makes it very clear. Great liner notes. I’ll have to check if I still have the DVD set. I do have a few of the prior DVD release. But I had never heard the the main title in stereo until I put in the BR and watched the remastered version. And I’ve had a surround system for 30 years. I can’t speak for what container they loaded the sound into, but there was never any stereo effect or edit or surround ever. And mixing a mono track into a 5.1 container doesn’t mean they did anything other than mix it so it came out the right speakers (likely the center or front L/R). For instance. Every CD is stereo. Now whether that is duplicated mono tracks (as is the case with all the Star Trek TOS music), stereo recorded tracks, or matrixed surround (which can expand to up to 5 tracks via a decoder) is another matter. Same with DVD and BR audio. You can have mono, stereo, matrixed stereo, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 1.1, 4.0, etc. It is a matter of compatibility with playback systems and what container they need to be in to work right. At that point it becomes a technical issue and not one of remixing the audio to something new. Don’t be fooled by a disc saying it has 5.1 surround. Star Trek was not mixed for surround until 2006, and even then only the opening titles and added sound FX. The mono track was contained for playback on 5.1 systems, nothing more. No FX were added, the music was mono. Even in the remastered there are minimal changes to the audio.

The old DVDs never had the mono mixes released, only the 5.1 tracks which added many new sound effects

Post
#1512232
Topic
Star Trek: The Original Series preservation (a WIP)
Time

yotsuya said:

As a Star Trek fan and as someone who took the time to rip the BR disc into my streaming collection with the original soundtrack and FX, here are my comments on the originality and quality.

First the series was indeed messed with, but this first happened back in the 60’s. There are records of what opening titles each episode initially had and several of them have been changed. But that was not a new change and it was done to the original negatives.

Second, a must have for anyone looking into this is the soundtrack box set. It has all the original recordings as well as the new titles recordings. From that it is clear that all of the BR original soundtracks have the original music. None of them have been updates with the new recordings.

I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS faithfully since 1984. I am very well acquainted with what we had back then vs. what we have now. The colors prior to the recent scans are horrible. The command uniforms wash out to gold from their original avocado yellow-green. That happened in some FX shots anyway, but most of the shots should show a distinct green tint. That is how you know you are looking at a good scan. This was confirmed by James Cawley who was friends with Bill Theiss and secured a sample of the original uniform material which verified that it had a distinct green tint. Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II and Star Trek Continues fan productions used the correct colors for their uniforms.

The remastered versions corrected many small inconsistencies in the episodes and those are NOT reflected in the original cuts. Some are very subtle and would be easy to miss, but they definitely are not there in the original versions included in the blu-ray set.

Prior to home video release, we were subjected to edited versions on TV. 4 minutes was cut from each episode. the first time most people saw these (who had not collected the VHS or LD releases) was when the SciFi Channel aired the extended versions with commentary in 90 minutes slots. They aired the episodes twice, once with Shatner introducing and once with Nimoy. While the episode cut is the same, those versions had incorrect colors.

I am satisfied that the episodes as delivered on Blu-Ray, when played in their original form, are indeed original. In order to create the remastered version, they went back to the original negatives and scanned them. This represents the best version of the episodes. If you want to undo how clean they made them, add some film grain, but there was no release prior that is as good. I’ve seen them all. My understanding is that was the first time they went back to the negatives so in terms of picture and sound, they should be the most authentic to how they were aired originally.

Now, The Cage. That is a different story entirely. Gene owned the negative and a B&W print. Both complete. I do not know what transpired exactly. I’m sure NBC viewed a color print, but no one has mentioned it. But when it came time to do The Menagerie, Gene brought in the negative for them to use. He expected them to copy it. Instead they cut it up. I’m not clear on the sound, but I think the sound was a separate element. The original sound appears to be lost. Gene’s B&W print made the convention circut and received some damage over the years. One section of dialog, which was captured by an in room audio recording by a fan, was lost. When they went to do the first VHS release, he wanted The Cage included so they made the hybrid one. They took the audio and video from The Menagerie and created the first mixed cut. This was the first most fans had seen this. Then a miraculous thing happened. The cut footage was found. So the next video release (The mixed version came out as episode 1, the restored version came out as episode 99 - I had both VHS tapes and was very pissed off that people thought 99 was colorized). And you can tell where the footage changes because it was not the same scan. They literally scanned the missing parts and edited them back in. But that missing dialog was not included. When they released the DVD version, both parts were scanned the same way so the footage was more consistent. When the BR came out, they had rescanned it again and you can’t tell the difference. But in each case the edit where there is missing footage is noticeable because the video is different in each edit. But really only in that one spot.

Now I can’t speak for the quality of the audio tracks on the LD vs. the DVD vs. the Blu-ray. I have not looked at those. But my experience with Star Wars indicates that those old LD AC3 tracks are as good as any modern soundtrack. The analog ones likely have more noise, and given the copy history of these episodes, probably has a lot more noise which is not original to the episodes. Until the remastered, they were using a film print as the source for all the home video releases. So the Remastered (and hence the original version on the Blu-ray) went back to the negatives and is made from the best sources. It should be the most faithful to the original you can get and I am satisfied with that. No, some of the episodes are not totally original as to how their originally aired, but they are faithful to their first rerun (Which is when some of the opening titles were changed).

But that soundtrack box set for TOS is a must for anyone investigating the sounds of TOS. It is full of information and glorious music (not just the often repeated tracks form previous TOS soundtrack releases).

Ok so from what it seems like you’re saying, the mono tracks on the BDs of TOS are not downmixes

Do they still have the new sound effects the remixes have anywhere?

Post
#1512110
Topic
Beavis and Butt-Head S03E35 - Incognito (Reconstruction/Restoration)
Time

Beavis lee ray said:

Does anyone know if later versions of the king turd collection corrected the welcome to the jungle baby your going to die line that was missing from the original on lawn and garden? Also did they use a broadcast version of patients patients with the try talking out of your mouth instead of your butt line which was also missing from the original version because the Mike judge collection cartoon segments were used for much of it with videos and scenes spliced in.

For the Jungle line, I think a v2 version fixed that cause I know a version I saw had it

Post
#1511865
Topic
American Graffiti - Original Cut Restoration (Mechanical Assistance/Telecine Experts Needed!) (* unfinished project *) - lots of information...
Time

silverwheel said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

SpacemanDoug said:

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

timemeddler said:

interesting, there’s a 480p transfer on the spleen claiming to be the 1973 version, is that from this print? Perhaps it could be used as the source to created a despecialized version of American Graffiti.

The Spleen can go suck a fuck.
35mm print would be best. 1080p or 4K scan. Would it ever happen? That’d be neat.

The one on myspleen is a 35mm scan, it’s just 480p

That’s fucking hilariously stupid that it’s 480p, not 1080p or 4K.

Considering that the scan was made almost 40 years ago, I’m not sure what more you’d expect. Certainly don’t know why you feel so committed to shittalking it.

How do you know it’s a 40 year old scan?

Post
#1511835
Topic
David Lynch is up for doing a directors cut of Dune!!!
Time

SpookyDollhouse said:

I feel if this actually got off the ground he’d inevitably reconstruct his 4 hour cut as it was before Fox went in and did their own thing. Cuz as we know they pushed him around on set but he did what he could in the editing room before the top dogs went “nope.” I don’t think anything SFX would get changed really. Lynch isn’t super into that sort of thing to be honest.

Minor correction, it was Dino De Laurentis and Universal, Fox had no involvement in this movie

Post
#1511753
Topic
Can anyone tell me if the music on the new Wayne’s world uhd is the original
Time

Fullmetaled said:

SpacemanDoug said:

crissrudd4554 said:

Dream Weaver was always a different recording. Gary Wright re-recorded it specifically for the film.

Apparently to restore Stairway, Paramount used a pre-theatrical mix with the OG Dream Weaver, so this replacement isn’t anything new necessarily

Why did this happen in the first place this just seems very odd.

Paramount likely used an element that happened to be the pre-release audio which not only had the original Stairway notes but also had the OG version of Dream Weaver so it was simply an oversight

Post
#1510875
Topic
American Graffiti - Original Cut Restoration (Mechanical Assistance/Telecine Experts Needed!) (* unfinished project *) - lots of information...
Time

AdmiralWasabi10191 said:

timemeddler said:

interesting, there’s a 480p transfer on the spleen claiming to be the 1973 version, is that from this print? Perhaps it could be used as the source to created a despecialized version of American Graffiti.

The Spleen can go suck a fuck.
35mm print would be best. 1080p or 4K scan. Would it ever happen? That’d be neat.

The one on myspleen is a 35mm scan, it’s just 480p

Post
#1510867
Topic
Info Wanted: Best Home Media Release of Akira (1988)
Time

PsyKovic said:

SpacemanDoug said:

The “best” is the US 2009 BD even though it’s slightly windowboxed for overscan, it doesn’t have the DNR issues though and has the original Japanese stereo mix (however it also has dub titles rather than proper translation subs)

The re-releases from FUNmation use the same master iirc but exclude the original mix, which is significant because the remix has many changes

The true Theatrical Mix Was Never Released On Home Media for what I’ve heard

If that’s true then idk how the current stereo track would be any different, seems original to me