Spaced Ranger

SilverWook said:

Are we sure that hokeyness wasn't Warner's doing?

 Well ... even though it wasn't that same announcer on the "re-released trailers" (2004 DVD), it was the same hokey repetitions and even overlapping-echo repetitions approach. The former may have been Warner's, but the latter are undeniably GL's (now-a-days, nothing gets done but by George himself or with the Lucas OK).

If I knew nothing of THX 1138 and watched any of those trailers, I would think "low-budget trash" and promptly move along to the next film. (Anyone remember the original Star Wars trailer that ended with a garbage-pail shaped "robot" tipping over and sounding like a garbage pail hitting the ground? Yep, same George Lucas. ... Just connecting the dots.)

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msycamore said:

Spaced Ranger, the spot oddly enough didn't play in my mediaplayer either but VLC handles it just fine.

Thanks for the heads-up!
Had the VLC player installed, updated the OS for a known issue with older versions of this player (microsoft.com: The Windows XP Low Fragmentation Heap Algorithm Feature Is Available for Windows 2000), and became able to watch SilverWook's TV-spot.  :)

.

AntcuFaalb said:

The big news is that I now have a Runco LJR-II in excellent condition. Yay! ^_^

Whoa! Nice machine!
"This is an extraordinary LD player. It seems to do everything absolutely right, and delivers a picture like I have never before seen from laserdisc." -Stereophile Guide to Home Theater
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/runco/runco_ljr2/runco_ljrii.htm
Looking forward to new, THX 1138 laserdisc-transfer awesomeness!

Nice shots. Thanks again! (I almost mentally-dismiss the red since developing de-fading techniques.) Oh, and love that texture ... at least in a still.  :)

The McOmie/Duvall-titled shot is not from any of the trailers on the 2004 DVD -- 1 "original 1971" @ 3m; 5 "re-released" (more like "re-made") @ 2m+ each. Any idea if this is a 1971+ or a 1978+ release trailer for TV? (Lucas continues to use that same hokey "perfectly clear, perfectly clear" announcing in this trailers, so no date clues from that.)

SilverWook said:

I thought DV camcorders all used the same codec? It's straight off the tape...

It's a Panasonic PV-GS400.

 So did I! But ...

"Sony and Panasonic have created their proprietary versions of DV, which use the same compression scheme, but improve on robustness, linear editing capabilities, color rendition and raster size." -Wikipedia

Not only that, there was a Panasonic DV codec on this system, but it still wouldn't work.

Anyway, thanks for this new info. I tried the Panasonic website for the PV-GS400 (in case it's codec was different) but couldn't install the only available software package (it requires the camcorder connected). Also tried assorted free DV codecs (Sony, Panasonic, Cedocida, Canopus) but still no video.

It looks like I must be satisfied with your frame capture (above) for now.  :D

Just an update here ...

Spaced Ranger said:

From what I've read, only Criterion's 1989 "special edition" laserdisc was color corrected to director Stanley Kubrick's personal specifications, http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00997/CC1160L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-Special-Edition-%281968%29
which, by that release, should be the only other permanently non-fading record of the movie.

That laserdisc mention was from captainsolo's referenced article The Big Picture: 2001 on Video by Thomas E. Brown http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/brown2.html, about the Criterion CAV 3-disc Laserdisc set (1989) mastered from a 35mm scope print (due to lack of 65/70mm transfer equipment at that time) with meticulous inspection and approval by Stanley Kubrick.

Also there, author Brown mused on something intriguing but not further explained (don't you just hate when they do that?):

"Even today the Criterion transfer is worthwhile viewing and no version -- except the as-yet-unreleased (although broadcast) digital transfer from a new print supervised by Kubrick, using new technologies -- captures the deep black of Kubrick's space scenes as well."
[emphasis mine]

I never did figure out anything more until just recently, when inadvertently stumbling across an Amazon website description of a DVD release of 2001 ... only on the UK version (as opposed to the US version) of that page! https://www.amazon.co.uk/2001-A-Space-Odyssey-DVD/dp/B000056WOM

2001: A Space Odyssey [1968] [DVD]

Reviews
From Amazon.co.uk
...
On the DVD: ... Shortly before he died Kubrick supervised the restoration of the film and the production of new 70 mm prints for theatrical release in 2001. Fortunately the DVD has been taken from this material and transferred at the 70 mm ratio of 2.21-1. There is some slight cropping noticeable, but both anamorphically enhanced image and Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack (the film was originally released with a six-channel magnetic sound) are excellent, making this transfer infinitely preferable to previous video incarnations. --Gary S Dalkin
[emphasis mine]

(Note: In typical fashion, Amazon has this same description on the different, multiple releases of 2001.)

This "Kubrick supervised" restoration is alluded to on the Warner (2001) DVD case ...

... where it states "SPECIAL FEATURES: NEW 2000 DIGITAL MASTER FROM RESTORED ELEMENTS".

That would make the Criterion 1989 laserdisc and the Warner 2001 DVD two releases of the Kubrick hands-on restoration (particularly regarding color correction) commercially available to us.

Thanks for the screener file, SilverWook!

Unfortunately, it uses a DV codec for video and I can only hear it. There is a DV driver (Panasonic) on this system but it must be a different brand/flavor and doesn't work. What brand are you using? (I'll get the proper driver from their website.)

dvdmike said:

Post 7 hours ago https://www.facebook.com/PrinceCharlesCinema
[BFI 35mm label image]

 Whoa! Nice find! That label looks old enough to be either Lucas' original cut (with the full SEN & children scene, finally released in 1978) or his next revision (with the SEN & children scene trimmed back some, released in 1983) ... according to my edits/releases theory back on page 61 http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/665567/#TopicPost665567 .

@ AntcuFaalb

BTW, is your new technique for hi-quality laserdisc capture of THX 1138 ready for prime-time? (I'm excitedly looking forward to your final set-up and it's results.)

SilverWook said:

I checked the DVD specs, and there were not any tv spots included, so I'm game. :)

Would this "tv spot" be from portions of the "theatrical trailer" (which is included on DVD/Blu)? And should one expect academy ratio, too?

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/623747/#TopicPost623747

Hi, and got the PM (see reply).

Yes, the syncing was done fairly early on and worked quite well. Note that AssumeSampleRate() is used to correct the per-clip-length timing and AudioDelay() aligns the audio starting point to the trimmed video. Both were done by eye. The numbers work on these short runs and should, too, on longer ones (or with minor tweaking):

## THX 1138 - 16mm bits
## AviSynth 2.5.x script

##==========
## SOURCE
##==========

##----------
## Get clips
##----------

vid001 = OpenDMLSource( "bits.avi" ).AssumeFPS( "ntsc_film" )
aud001 = WAVSource( "audioBit1.wav" ).AssumeSampleRate( 47650 )
aud002 = WAVSource( "audioBit2.wav" ).AssumeSampleRate( 47650 )
aud003 = WAVSource( "audioBit3.wav" ).AssumeSampleRate( 47650 )

##==========
## PROCESS
##==========

##----------
## Split video, add audio, trim clips
##----------

vid001a = vid001.Trim( 0, 3071 )
vid001a = AudioDub( vid001a , aud001 )
vid001a = vid001a.DelayAudio( -6 )
vid001a = vid001a.Trim( 0, 3071 )
#    \.Subtitle( "clip 1", x=360, y=443, size=24 )
#    \.ShowSMPTE( x=600, y=470 )
#    \.ShowFrameNumber( x=360, y=450 )

vid001b = vid001.Trim( 3102, 5405 )
vid001b = AudioDub( vid001b, aud002 )
vid001b = vid001b.DelayAudio( -10.8 )
vid001b = vid001b.Trim( 3102-3102, 5405-3102 )
    \.Trim( 0, 2255 )
#    \.Subtitle( "clip 2", x=360, y=443, size=24 )
#    \.ShowSMPTE( x=600, y=470 )
#    \.ShowFrameNumber( x=360, y=450 )

vid001c = vid001.Trim( 5421, 5843 )
vid001c = AudioDub( vid001c, aud003 )
vid001c = vid001c.DelayAudio( -3.5 )
vid001c = vid001c.Trim( 5421-5421, 5843-5421 )
    \.Trim( 17, 0 )
#    \.Subtitle( "clip 3", x=360, y=443, size=24 )
#    \.ShowSMPTE( x=600, y=470 )
#    \.ShowFrameNumber( x=360, y=450 )

# reassembled clips
vid001abc = vid001a +vid001b +vid001c

##==========
## DISPLAY - the results
##==========

# show various clips
vid001abc

##==========

@ msycamore

Unfortunately ... Must Bow Out

It looks like my window of free time just closed on me. I won't be able to continue the completion/assembling of the laserdisc preservation (it's back to lurking on OT when I have odd moments for that).

It looks like AntcuFaalb is moving along on his capture, which will eliminate the issues of the previous one that was eating up your time/energy. Perhaps asking him to add all your extras to his project, to finish it, would be the best idea (I'm sure he'd do that, too). He appears to have better Internet connections than me and perhaps that would be better for your transfer, too.

If you could ask him and post an announcement, that would make it official. In case you're not signing in when lurking, I'll put this message in a post (after some weeks of no answer) in hopes you'll catch it that way.

Anyway, I tried and hope my efforts to this point were/will be a help.  :)

.

@ AntcuFaalb

In msycamore's absence, I hope you will take the reigns of this LD preservation project (a good capture was most of it anyway). msycamore only sent that 16mm clip segment I worked on a few pages back. I was awaiting more of his resources (and queried about them after some time of silence), then my free time gave out. Still looking forward (as time permits) to your techniques and results!

I should've included Peter Jackson's YouTube link to that 3D video blog:

THE HOBBIT, Production Diary 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sqFkd-wHKs

for those who don't have it (on DVD/Blu-ray). Generally fascinating ... specifically revealing ... from @6:15 ... "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more".   ;)

althor1138 said:

I came up with this idea a couple of weeks ago ... (This denoiser samples the black bars for noise and uses this information to denoise the film area.)

Well done! I've always been enamored of temporal noise self-cancellation but never considered spacial noise (though out of useful picture area) for self-cancellation in the same fashion. Your idea is clever, to the point of genius.

I have used the MVDenoise() [from ver. 1.x, now superseded] and MVAnalyse() functions from Manao & Fizick's Avisynth filter MVTools http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools2.html to good cleaning effect (shown here with other corrections, so just ignore those parts):

Only one temporal frame, backward & forward, made for effective and unobtrusive de-noising of this 16mm frame (reducing multi-generation grain instead of electronic noise -- both "random"). However, experience has shown that one cannot use too many backward & forward frames without risking obvious noise crawl from repeated usage of those frames. (This may be a filter flaw, but it's hard to tell. So much of this filter does not have quantifiable feedback on exactly what is being done by user settings.)

Could you post a representative before/after full-sized frame .PNG?

AntcuFaalb said:

I plan on using median-of-three rather than TooT (thanks for the tip, g-force!).

What is the advantage, in this case, that changed your approach?

Also, would these individual sources also be available in the project (for those wishing to try alternate methods)?

SilverWook said:

I sent a capture if it to msycamore, but I don't know if he's sent it on to anyone else.

I'm still waiting for a reply on the status of that.  RealLife® to blame, no doubt.  :)

Yep, PJ is certainly "coloring" his films. He's even pre-coloring make-up for processing compensation in The Hobbit movies (note the make-up applier's own skin for comparison):

The Red-brand digital cameras now are legitimately a part of it. "Red camera tends to eat color a little so we add more color", said a TH:AUJ production designer in an official blog video about 3D filming. But, if the picture is red-reduced for a general shift towards teal (requiring red make-up pre-emphasis for better flesh-tones after red reduction), then that indicates a deliberate teal-tint agenda going on here.

Good thing we're around to fix it!

ETQ06213 said:

If the print source is real, it's definitely the 2004 DC ... it contains the DTS timecode and digital Dolby and SDDS tracks).

SilverWook said:

Seen it before. 2004 version.

So disappointing ... :(

A little analyzing also shows it could've been better. I started with the same DVD (2004) frame ..

.. and, wow, is it really that dark? Yes, with lots of black crush, too:

(crushed R-G-B areas are shown by inverting them to their maximum color).
Anyway, the overall darkness was fixed just to see what was being worked on:

The frame from the THX 1138 Remix ..

.. is trimmed, re-sized, superimposed, and aligned:

Extraneous celluloid is trimmed away and ..

.. hmmm. Not allot of 35mm picture here.

Oh well, back to the scope print search.  :)

poita said:

http://vimeo.com/3974772

Whoa! And my favorite frame:

But don't show this to SilverWook ... he'll start looking for all those other frames!  :D

Alas the video was a 4 year old post, with only timeouts from it's project link.

You_Too said:

Well the thing with these movies is that I think most of the adjustments might be done with curves, not hue/saturation/luminance. ... When you have nothing to compare to, and watch the movie like that you might not even notice the green tint. ... but they just like doing it that way these days.

No need to sell me on R-G-B -- that's my speciality (http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-OT-1997-Special-Edition-Blu-rays-Info-by-Team-Blu/post/630232/#TopicPost630232).   :)   Asaki's point was how changing the picture hue for the fire's color might effect the sky's color ... to support his original contention.

But this universal trending towards teal requires a conspiracy theory -- new-world-order conspiracy, and color theory.  I'll submit the latter, here.
Could it be that these film companies are trying to expand the colorspace of their HD releases to mimic the distribution of 4K/8K UHD? (Of course, in that case, I would think it is wrong-headed and wrong-applied.) Notice the "D65" white-point is centered in the UHDTV triangle while off center in the HDTV:

If they tried to reposition that point to center it in HDTV, it would decrease Red content while increasing Green and Blue ... precisely what would make for a teal tint. Hmmm ... food for thought.

Whatever the reason, Peter Jackson (and company) did it too late, and too strong, and too wrong in TFOTR. By the time TH:AUJ rolled around, they corrected the "too late" (now done in production), corrected the "too strong" (if we're willing to accept the blanket tinting in the first place), and corrected the "too wrong". This last part is shown by comparing the 2 movies for TFOTR's wrong overall darkness and black crush:

              TLOTR: The Fellowship Of The Ring EE                            The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey

Comparing similar locations from blu-ray.com's review caps, the R-G-B crushed values (R/or/G/or/B=0) are luminance-inverted to expose the damaged areas with maximum color/brightness. TFOTR is riddled with them. TH:AUJ has few if any. However, PJ is still not keeping the black points and the white points their proper shades of grey, resulting in green snow & clouds, and a fog-of-darkness in bright sunlight!

Properly adjusted, it might've looked unobtrusively acceptable [TOP = theatrical; MIDDLE = extended edition; BOTTOM = theatrical properly adjusted]:

For the proper adjustment, the blacks & whites remain at their original points by adjusting only gamma and midtones (here in a paint program). Adjusting the Red channel downward, the Blue channel less downward, and the Green channel unaltered, will produce a teal tint but it will also darken the picture. Instead, Red is adjusted down, Green is adjusted up, and Blue is unaltered. This way, the average of the channels is still the original brightness, while the relative proportions of the channels is still the same to produce a desired teal.

Asaki said:

But if you color correct the film so that fire is orange instead of red, then the blue sky would be...

After a smile, I gave it some thought. What if we took Tolkien's red fire ..

J.R.R. Tolkien said:

The pines were roaring on the height,
The winds were moaning in the night.
The fire was red, it flaming spread;
The trees like torches biased with light.

.. and made it orange? Would we also end up with a teal Middle Earth?

Guess not.

NeonBible said:

Now I'm in the mood for watching some totalitarian movies. I've only seen THX 1138 once, it was the DC and I really can't remember it too well. I want to get a hold of the theatrical version.

msycamore's opening post (http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/426875/#TopicPost426875) includes his breakdown of THX 1138's release history. Since then, with more information coming in, I've put together what I believe is a more accurate variation (http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/668528/#TopicPost668528).

However, everyone agrees that the 2004 so-called Director's Cut (George Lucas has been releasing "director's cuts" since 1978 -- yep, they're all his!) changes the feel of what was originally a cloistered, totalitarian community to the latter's hustle & bustle of big-city future life. Maybe that was what he had in mind when he was a first-time, inexperienced director with a limited budget. But, like in his Star Wars tinkering, every newly added bit of business oddly mis-flavours the soup of his original production and reveals he is not the master chef we thought he was.

This thread's LD preservation should be superior to any previous. If you allow for drop-in replacement of your present source, it might save you redundant work later on.

Well, as you've already spilled the beans, I hope they don't come after me for revealing this well-guarded secret (after all, we have already bought all their movies, multiple times), so just keep this photographic evidence between you and me:

-->  It's New Zealand which is teal!   <--

The problem was the budgets were getting tight and they skipped the correction needed to bring the colors back to Middle Earth (and the rest of the world). Here's the hidden-camera proof!

                  on location in New Zealand                                     Middle Earth pre-vis correction

Asaki said:

...and who's to say that skies aren't greenish on Middle Earth?

*clears throat*

J.R.R. Tolkien said (in  The Hobbit  Or There And Back Again):

"At your service!" said Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur standing in a row. Then they hung up two yellow hoods and a pale green one; and also a sky-blue one with a long silver tassel. This last belonged to Thorin, ...

The next morning was a midsummer's morning as fair and fresh as could be dreamed: blue sky and never a cloud, ...

:)

Is it too much to hope your new VCD looks anything like the VCD open-matte screener in the framing compare above?  :O

Turisu said:

... could someone with the DVD to hand take a screen pic and see if their camera white-balances out the green?

ETQ06213 said:

I've just finished a first pass at conforming the Blu-ray to the cut present on the Laserdisc (using the Angrysun edition).

Very cool!

I haven't seen the Angrysun LD preservation but I've heard it's (only) passable. For this, msycamore's preservation, SilverWook made an excellent cap (see this thread's page 2 for samples). AntcuFaalb is presently working on a new cap that should be better still, perhaps the best possible from a laserdisc source.

I would recommend (if it isn't too late) that you make your corrections independent of any particular laserdisc source. That way you can easily drop in another source (like the SW or AF cap?) for a better result with the least amount of redundant effort.

How do you plan to handle particular shots, where Lucas took the original shot and placed new graphics around it ..

  <-- Blu-ray frame

.. to create the new Blu-ray shot? Trying to resize that small original section up to 1080p, for the HD restoration, wouldn't look very good.

You_Too said:

By the way, here's something I found when searching for info on the screener. Taken from this page.

When Neo is running from the agents near the end, he jumps off a fire escape and lands on a pile of garbage. When we see him (stunt double) land, we can see that there is a cushion with the garbage placed on top. Note: This is only seen in the open matte version, and not in the widescreen version where the cushion would have been out of frame.

... Does anybody know more of these things that one could find in this version?

This is excellent! With all that extra space from the final framing, there must be more of these intriguing, behind-the-scenes reveals.

And, unfortunately, PJ has subjected The Hobbit: AUJ to the same/similar distortion as was done to TFOTR-EE. kk650 addressed this in his regrades-- kk650's Regraded The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey 1080p and kk650's Regraded The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Extended Edition 1080p.

More info in OT thread kk650's Lord of the Rings: Regraded http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/kk650s-Lord-of-the-Rings-Regraded/topic/15638/ .

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

@Spaced Ranger: thumbnails here works - look at this picture.

Thanks for checking into that. It looks like the thumbnails are just not getting through to this system (settings must be too secure).

What about your avatar? "This 3 hour .GIF movie has been moved or deleted" is intended to be as it is? (^^,)

Yes, it is a mocking of these services, which clearly know whether something has been moved or deleted.  :)