SilverWook

DuracellEnergizer said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

To be honest, I think Kirk is just okay (Sisko is far better) and that Roddenberry was just another conceited, revisionist hack like Lucas.

 Making the TNG era a more politically correct utopian age, devoid of interpersonal conflict, is not akin to making silly changes to your old movies and forcing them down the fans' throats. Not by a long shot.

I liked Sisko, but the revelation that he really was the Kwistaz Haderach of the wormhole aliens was a bit much.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

 He didn't rape her.

If the stuff Kirk did bothers you guys that much, I guess you must really hate the classic Bond movies. 

 Okay I am sorry. Nothing in TOs is dated and anyone who doesn't think every second of the show is perfect and who is uncomfortable with anything on the show is a moron and and should be burned alive in the town square.

I am sorry I know that now adays grabbing a woman and not letting go isn't seen as rape. i guess I was just raised wrong and I am sorry for that. I admit I am the worst person who ever lived because i dared to question the actions of Captain kirk. i will now go and kill myself because I am clearly an evil monster who has no right to live.  Can we move on.

Look I know someone who was raped and the guy who did it never got into any trouble because he used the Kirk argument,so excuse me if I am not ready to let him off of the hook as easily as the rest of you. If you have the grab the woman and she tries to break free that is rape and being undercover is no excuse. I'm sorry I know that in the modern world it is wrong to be bothered by things like rape but it still bothers me. Sorry I know that makes me an awful person but it just does and I have tried to change but I have not been able to yet.

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

I am done with this thread I thought maybe it would be different then the Star Trek sites I was a member of in the past seeing as it is on a Star Wars site but it is just more of the same.  I will never get along with other Star Trek fans so I am done trying.

 I think you're overreacting just a tad. You haven't been around here very long. We get into spirited debates, but we aren't muzzling you.

There are plenty of things about TOS that are dated. A lack of women in command positions for one. Roddenberry had the character of Number One in the pilot, but the network didn't like her. Even the animated series had every man on the ship incapacitated before we saw Uhura take command. We didn't see a female captain in Trek until 1986.

The series still had a multi racial cast, and women holding rank in an era when all our real life astronauts were white guys. There was even a tussle behind the scenes about whether characters should be seen smoking, when cigarette sponsorship was a lucrative thing. The show got more things right then it got wrong. That's why it's still around today.

However, if you're going to equate Kirk's actions with sexual assault, you can't expect not to get some debate on the issue. I know someone who was raped too, and they loved Kirk. Just because some scum of the Earth tries to justify their reprehensible actions by blaming it on what they watched on tv, doesn't make it true. How the did this person you're talking about not get arrested? I don't think the cops or a jury is going to buy the "Kirk Defense".

Warbler said:

Hey!  DO NOT DISREPECT THE PHANATIC IN MY PRESENCE!

 Relax, I was kidding. I actually like the big green guy. I was living in Jersey in the late 70's, and it seemed like every kid on the block had a stuffed toy of him.

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three.

He only definitely did it in The Paradise Syndrome, the other times were just implied.   

 Kirk putting his boots on, while his ladyfriend combs her hair in his quarters, is pretty strong evidence they did more than cuddle in Wink of an Eye.

And I'm pretty sure he didn't just chat with that roman slave girl either!

You are viewing a 1960's tv show through politically correct glasses. Short miniskirts were in vogue at the time. One might as well complain about the NASA astronaut who keeps a female genie dressed as a harem girl all the time. ;)

Kirk was pretending to be his evil counterpart in a hostile alternate universe, and you darn well know it!

The cast was getting older in the 80's, and the plots really didn't throw a sexy alien captain Kirk's way. His relationship with Gillian in The Voyage Home didn't voyage out of the friend zone. Kirk got friendly with David Bowie's wife in The Undiscovered Country though.

Kirk's sex drive has resurfaced in the new movies. You never had a female character strip down to their undies on the tv series though.

Maybe they could concentrate on the game better if the Phillie Phanatic would finally put some pants on? ;)

DrCrowTStarwars said:

bkev said:

Warbler said:

bkev said:

Jetrell Fo said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek. If anything, it rectified some of the damage that TNG had done and restored some of the fun to the ST Universe that had been lacking in it since the TOS films had come to an end.

I agree with you 100% on this.  DS9 gave Star Trek it's teeth back.

 Also agreed.  DS9 took a few seasons to find its groove -- if Sisko's not bald, you're probably watching the wrong episode -- but man did it get good.  I especially liked the moral ambiguities of the Federation in this series.  showing that we're not perfect is always important in Trek, even if it's at the cost of some of the Utopian imagery.

 You mean the Utopian imagery that was Roddenberry original premise for Star Trek?  That humanity had improved and advanced? 

 In a sense, yes.  The original Trek epitomizes Space Age optimism as presented in pop culture and, I think, as a culture we have become too world wise - or cynical, take your pick - to accept that.  An ambiguous storyline is more compelling than B-Movie television.  DrCrow's thoughts on Garak point to why I enjoy DS9 as a whole and he said it well enough I don't need to.

In terms of TOS being a utopia, the only real problem I have with that universe is   the blatant sexism.  

 Yeah I love TOS like a child and I didn't pick up on it as a kid but rewatching the episodes now some are hard to get through without feeling a little ill.  There are episodes where Kirk pretty much forces himself on woman and yet they fall in love with him because he was just that good at sex????  So rape is okay as long as you are good at it,I guess.

Notice that in the movies they didn't have Kirk do any of that stuff because times had already changed enough for that to not appeal to movie goers in the 1980s.

Give me DS9's shades of gray over the hero committing rape and not a word being said about it any day of the week.

 I think you have womanizing confused with harassment.

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

Saw this link over at rebelscum. Sucks to lose or drop a Vader bank you think is worth $30k!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-WARS-Vintage-1977-Roman-Ceramics-Darth-Vader-coin-Bank-6-5-tall-/131155897663?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e89802d3f&nma=true&si=CxQdKG4gyS0CoM6L3%252B3mEapvRs4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

That this seller thinks  a similar, more modestly priced bank up for sale has been "tarnished" by David Prowse's signature is hilarious...

Could have sworn there was a Leia in previous incarnations of that toy line? It is a curious omission though.

Congratulations!

Hope they really like Star Wars. ;)

Was down for short time earlier today as well.

A forgotten evil regeneration? ;)

corellian77 said:

Huh... I wonder where IGN got that screen grab from.  It's certainly not from any official source (BD, GOUT), is it?

 Maybe it's from an old electronic press kit or something? In the days of lobby cards, images slightly different from what was in the movie were common.

I'm embarrassed to admit I saw that in a theater when it came out. I think I lost the vote on which movie to see at the multiplex though.

Cloney should have been a name in the prequels. ;)

Ryan McAvoy said:

Plus the first time we meet Lando, Han makes a reference to some incident where Han betrayed(?) Lando in the past...

"That was a long time ago. I'm sure he's forgotten all about that."

Lando forgives Han without a word (Just a gentle joshing) so I expect Han would forgive Lando too. It's that kind of friendship.

More importantly, we the audience had forgiven Lando before the credits rolled on ESB. So bringing it up again during the opening act of ROTJ a couple of yers later would be dramatically pointless.

 That was ambiguous enough that it could have been anything from a romantic rivalry, to leaving Lando with a hefty bar tab. ;)

There were plenty of exotic aliens on DS9, just not in the major roles, with the exception of Odo and Quark. And don't forget Morn. ;)

IIRC, they did their best to subvert Rick Berman's edict about such elaborate makeup jobs that affected TNG. One reason we barely saw the Andorians at all until Enterprise.

I don't know how B5 handled the logisitics differently, but being in heavy makeup all the time is pretty grueling for an actor. You have to show up earlier than your fellow cast members, (the sun isn't even out yet) and plop down half groggy in a makeup chair hours before you're actually needed on the set. And they do need to take a break from it, which is another reason why a certain character might not be in every episode.

Reel to reel home video recorders did exist in the 60's, and at least one Doctor Who episode was taped that way. Alas, not a lost episode.

My parents owned a 25 inch RCA console tv in 1966. ;)

Wait a minute. The whole raison d'etre for the 1997 versions, was George felt the OOT were unfinished works, because he didn't have enough time and money originally to achieve his "vision".

So, he essentially leaves them unfinished again, on purpose this time?

I can't imagine why anybody would mock TOS's original FX. The Enterprise always looked like a real ship. (The original model is huge if you've ever seen it in person.) The series even won an emmy for the FX in The Tholian Web. It's not ever going to be confused with shots from 2001, but it's a product of it's tv era. TOS could also reuse footage and recombine shots which Who usually couldn't.

I think most of the time, DW's FX were brilliant on a tiny budget. (And the size/image quality of televisions back then probably covered up a few shortcomings.) Dinosaurs is probably the only time they stumbled badly. Somebody must have used a really old outdated book on dinosaurs as a reference, as that T-Rex just looks really odd.

And having a lavish budget isn't always a guarantee of good FX. I still remember the tv miniseries adaptation of The Martian Chronicles from 1977. It had great locations, impressive sets, and and all star cast. The FX shots were like something out of an Ed Wood movie, and this was in 1980!

I would hope Garrett Morris gets a cameo in Ant Man. ;)

Sure! A little clever editing could even put Michael Keaton in the battle, or in ROTR...

No idea how long it's been back. Haven't accessed the site with my netbook in some time. AVG did it's usual panic over it. I've used Microsoft Security Essentials on the home machine since last fall, and nothing seems to happen.

Just a heads up.

The Blackhat thing is back. I accessed the site with my netbook while out to dinner this evening, and AVG did it's usual freak out.

It may have been back a while, since I use Microsoft Security Essentials on the home machine these days.

Wear your digital rubbers. ;)

The original Land of the Lost, which aired the same year, has much better dino FX. And that was a mix of stop motion and "live" puppets.

I'm guessing the Beeb couldn't afford Ray Harryhausen's services? ;)