Servii

Spartacus01 said:

I think Lucas himself kind of debunked that. He said that Yoda couldn’t really have done anything different. He was just manipulated into a no-win situation.

Yes, because Lucas has a fetish for the Jedi, so the Jedi can’t be wrong and saint Yoda is always right, especially when… well… he tells you to just do nothing but be happy when people around you dies.

Not saying I agree with Lucas. Just saying it wasn’t an intentional character arc.

Spartacus01 said:

NeverarGreat said:

Pre 1999 Yoda: Spiritual guru living in harmony with nature.

Post 1999 Yoda: Deadbeat father and military leader of a child-kidnapping cult who advocates for book burning.

I don’t think it is a contradiction, rather just character development. That is, Yoda became what he was before 1999 because he learned from the mistakes he made in post-1999 media. For example: yes, in Empire Strikes Back he says that war makes no one great. But why he says that? Because he made a lot of mistakes, and by participating in the Clone Wars he learned first hand that war his shit and makes no one great.

I think Lucas himself kind of debunked that. He said that Yoda couldn’t really have done anything different. He was just manipulated into a no-win situation.

Superweapon VII said:

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

1. The sheer amount of cataclysmic events and wars that follow RoTJ. Seriously, it’s like Luke, Han, Leia, and Lando just can’t catch a break. Every 2 years something insane happens and of course they’re the ones that have to fix it. They never get to retire or live out their happy ending. I don’t have an issue with new conflicts starting up, but do they always have to be so intense and involve the same ten people? This is why I’m very picky with my post RotJ content, and why I prefer to just go by head-canon.

The primary reason why I have the Hand of Thrawn duology as my cut-off point. The Galactic Civil War is finally over, Luke and Mara are engaged to be married, and Leia has that sweet ruby lightsaber. The best possible ending to the Expanded Universe, I say.

Yeah, I’m of the same view. It’s an ideal endpoint. The star war is over, and for a moment, the galaxy is at peace. Everything that comes after is better off left as something to speculate about. I’ll probably avoid reading any EU books set after 19 ABY, for that reason.

G&G-Fan said:

Superweapon VII said:

It’s probably difficult for some folks to wrap their heads around Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith whilst being subservient to a non-Sith Palpatine because since 1999, the Sith have been portrayed as apex predators who have a monopoly on dark side mastery. But this is purely an invention of the prequels.

You do realize that the fact that Vader calls Palpatine his master obviously means Palpatine was a Sith in TESB and ROTJ? Like yeah you can rationalize a different explanation but it’s clear that’s the intention. There’s no need to jump through hoops for another explanation. The scripts for all three call Vader a Dark Lord of the Sith and the Emperor is his master.

Eh, I don’t think it’s as open-and-shut as you’re suggesting. The early conception of the Sith leaned more into the warrior aspect, which Palpatine, as a sorcerer, lacked completely. All that’s implied in the OT is that Vader the Sith swore fealty to the Emperor, who’s powerful in the Dark Side, but seems dismissive of lightsabers.

G&G-Fan said:

I disagree with people who say this movie isn’t as well-directed as the other two in the OT. I really love the directing in this movie. Marquand does such a great job always putting the camera close to the characters so you can really feel the emotions of a scene.

I find that the cinematography looks better and more appealing in the 4K83 projects than it does in the official releases. I think it has something to do with the colors and the filmic look, but the movie just looks a lot prettier.

In general, I like how the old EU handled the fall of the Empire. It wasn’t a clean or quick process of collapse. It was a gradual decline like the Roman Empire into a sort of Byzantine rump state, with brief periods of resurgence. In this analogy, I guess Thrawn would be Emperor Justinian trying to reconquer the Western Empire.

The whole thing played out in a more realistic way and felt truer to real history, with the fracturing into warlord states and splinter factions rising up. I like that the Galactic Civil War continued for another 15 years after Endor, and I find the idea of a post-Palpatine declining Empire to be a really interesting concept.

broshthejosh01 said:

How DARE You remove Yoda vs Palpatine, THERE WAS NO FUCKING NEED OF REMOVING IT! “BUT IT INTERRUPTS OBI WAN AND ANAKINS FIGHT!!!” I DON’T FUCKING CARE IF YOU’RE IMPATIENT, YODA VS PALPATINE IS EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT AS ANAKIN VS OBI WAN! ADD IT BACK RIGHT THIS INSTANT! The reasoning is even more stupid, “Yoda decides that only Luke and the rebel alliance can defeat Palpatine”, that is bullshit! Yoda knows nothing about Luke and the rebel alliance yet, that’s how it’s supposed to be! AND DON’T GET ME STARTED ON REMOVING THE MEMES OF THIS MOVIE! REMOVING OBI WAN SAYING “I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!” AND PALPATINE SAYING “DEW IT!” IS UTTER BULLSHIT, SURE THEY’RE SILLY, BUT THEY’RE GOOD SILLINESS! THEY’RE ICONIC! THEY’RE THE MEMES OF REVENGE OF THE SITH! WHICH IS THE REAL TITLE OF THIS MOVIE, NOT LABYRINTH OF EVIL, WHICH IS STUPID, REVENGE OF THE SITH IS REVENGE OF THE SITH, REVENGE OF THE SITH IS REVENGE OF THE SITH! YOU CAN’T MAKE THIS SHIT UP! YOUR EDITS MAKE THE SPECIAL EIDITON LOOK LIKE THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK BY COMPARSION, I HOPE YOU REALIZE YOUR MISTAKE, YOU ABSOLUTELY SUCK! AND DESERVE TO BE WIELDED BY A LIGHTSABER! YOU, ARE, THE REAL SITH LORD! FUCK YOU!

This is copypasta material.

Superweapon VII said:

I remember those tiers. I found them absurd then and I still do now.

What would you do instead?

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

Spartacus01 said:

Sometimes I feel the Star Wars universe is unnecessarily big and confused, and that it contains a disproportionate amount of material, although there’s no need to. If I were George Lucas, this is the way I would have organized the Star Wars universe from the beginning:

• A “Down of the Jedi” style long comic series to explore the birth of the Jedi and the Republic.
• A “Tales of the Jedi” style comic series to explore the birth of the Sith and the Great War between the Jedi and the Sith, which leed to the Sith “extinction” at Russan.
• A trilogy of comics to explore Darth Bane’s story.
• A “Star Wars: Republic” style long comic series to explore the whole Prequel Era, the Clone Wars and Anakin’s fall. No Prequel films, everything Is made in comics.
• A “Star Wars: Dark Times” style comic series to explore the Dark Times.
• The Original Trilogy.
• A “Tales of the Jedi” style long comic series to explore the post-ROTJ period, at least until the definitive defeat of the Empire.

That’s it. This way, there wouldn’t be too much material, the universe outside of the movies wouldn’t be so big, and perhaps people would be less confused.

The issue you run into with a really tight, concrete canon is that the duds are harder to ignore. If a book, show, or movie is hard canon and ends up being really bad, all future material still has adhere to it.

IMO, Disney should consider the movies something like a “Main Saga” and everything else sort of like an Expanded Universe, which are on different tiers of canon.

In fact, it would probably be a good idea to split it into more than two tiers of canon. Like, George Lucas’s 6 movies are obviously on the top tier of canon as the core story the rest is based on, but then on the next tier you could have stuff like The Clone Wars which is clearly core canon but still lower than 1-6. Then you’d have stuff like novels and comics, the main bulk of what I’m thinking I’d call the “Expanded Star Wars Universe”, and then at the bottom you’d have stuff which conforms to canon but doesn’t define it. This would really work out, especially with such an anal fanbase. I’m not sure why Disney doesn’t do this.

That’s a brilliant idea! Wait, that sounds familiar…

Ejn said:

Mocata said:

Jeez why are all the pro-Lucas and pro-prequel videos like 2 hours long or more

Wahhh me no wanna watch and learn! Just give me two minute video so me can keep scrolling!

You created an account on here just to hurl insults at people? Grow up.

Spartacus01 said:

Sometimes I feel the Star Wars universe is unnecessarily big and confused, and that it contains a disproportionate amount of material, although there’s no need to. If I were George Lucas, this is the way I would have organized the Star Wars universe from the beginning:

• A “Down of the Jedi” style long comic series to explore the birth of the Jedi and the Republic.
• A “Tales of the Jedi” style comic series to explore the birth of the Sith and the Great War between the Jedi and the Sith, which leed to the Sith “extinction” at Russan.
• A trilogy of comics to explore Darth Bane’s story.
• A “Star Wars: Republic” style long comic series to explore the whole Prequel Era, the Clone Wars and Anakin’s fall. No Prequel films, everything Is made in comics.
• A “Star Wars: Dark Times” style comic series to explore the Dark Times.
• The Original Trilogy.
• A “Tales of the Jedi” style long comic series to explore the post-ROTJ period, at least until the definitive defeat of the Empire.

That’s it. This way, there wouldn’t be too much material, the universe outside of the movies wouldn’t be so big, and perhaps people would be less confused.

The issue you run into with a really tight, concrete canon is that the duds are harder to ignore. If a book, show, or movie is hard canon and ends up being really bad, all future material still has adhere to it.

I personally prefer a looser, more open canon because it makes the universe feel bigger, in a way. It may be more confusing for someone new to it, but it’s also more interesting. If you lay out an exact timeline and every story in the canon is designed for the purpose of explaining each stage of the timeline, you run the risk of the stories becoming boring or predictable.

In hindsight, Lucasfilm’s choice to label the old EU stories as “Legends” was actually kind of brilliant. These are all meant be stories from a long time ago, so of course they’d be legends, and just like real world myths and legends, they grew organically over time and often contradicted each other.

Dave Filoni once compared Luke’s mental state at the end of RotJ to Frodo’s mental state at the end of LOTR. Frodo was deeply scarred by his experiences and was never able to readjust to normal life. He grew distant from his fellow hobbits and was haunted by his trauma until he left Middle-earth altogether.

I’ve personally never interpreted Luke’s character in the same way. If there’s one trait Luke was shown to have in the OT, it was a remarkable ability to bounce back from trauma. He lost his aunt and uncle, and then his father figure, and then his best friend, and then found out his father was the 2nd most evil man in the galaxy. And he still made it through all that with his friends’ help, and ended the trilogy with a smile on his face.

I think the disagreement over Luke’s character stems from differing interpretations of Luke’s emotional state at the end of RotJ. Is he weary of the world and just putting on a happy face for his friends, or is he looking forward to the future, with the best part of his life still in front of him?

I always believed that, having confronted and reconciled with his father, and having faced the darkness within himself, Luke was finally free to look forward to the future and have a fresh start along with the rest of the galaxy. He’d still struggle with the Dark Side, but he’d be less haunted than before, rather than more haunted.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you agree with Filoni’s comparison?

I really like your version of events. Especially how Anakin dabbles with Sith knowledge for a while before fully committing to it. It fits better with the idea of Anakin being seduced by the Dark Side rather than just being duped into it.

For a while, I considered cutting out Anakin’s discovery by the Jedi altogether, and just having him start as a padawan or knight at the beginning of Episode I. But I decided it is still important to show Obi-Wan meeting him for the first time, so I’ll have their meeting occur very early in the movie. And midway through, Anakin will already be Obi-Wan’s padawan, at least in an informal sense. Anakin will be nineteen, and an indentured servant living on Tatooine, when Obi-Wan meets him. Anakin ends up saving the day at the end of the movie, and is celebrated on Coruscant as a hero of the Republic.

Anakin can be knighted early in Episode II. Make it clear that a lot of people look up to him, but that the pressure of that is starting to get to him. He tries to put up this front of a stoic, selfless hero, but privately, he’s wracked by self doubt and PTSD. He tries to hide his problems, but the stress of the Clone Wars and all the death he’s surrounded by is keeping him up at night. Despite that, the soldiers under his command have great respect for him, and Anakin is shown to have a stern, commanding presence and a strong tactical mind.

Anakin’s mother dies near the end of Episode II, in a way that Anakin narrowly fails to prevent. Anakin goes into a whirlwind of emotion, and almost massacres the people responsible, but is stopped and calmed down by Obi-Wan.

Either at the end of II or the beginning of III, Coruscant is attacked and large swathes of the city are destroyed. Anakin and Padme work to rally the planet’s defenders, but Padme is then injured in the attack and is bedridden in a hospital. This throws Anakin further off balance. Anakin fights Darth Maul in the Chancellor’s office, and Maul taunts Anakin about how everything the Jedi have fought for is crumbling around him. Maul then senses Anakin’s distress about his wife, and taunts him about how she will be dead soon. This causes Anakin to finally snap and overpower Maul in a fit of rage, killing him as he begs for mercy.

From this point onward, even though Anakin isn’t technically a Sith yet, he’s already essentially on the Dark Side. When we see him again in III, he’s leading a bloody campaign of vengeance against those responsible for Coruscant. He’s soon expelled from the Jedi Order for committing war crimes and being driven by hate and revenge. Instead of Anakin becoming more unstable or fiery as he turns to the Dark Side, he becomes callous and cold. A ruthless general of the Republic/Empire.

It’s then that, per Palpatine’s subtle suggestion, he begins to dabble in Sith knowledge, looking for ways to destroy the enemy and end the war. He learns that Palpatine is planning to have the Jedi killed to solidify his power, and he decides that this is a necessary evil to restore order to the galaxy, and that the Jedi have become a liability, so he agrees to go along with it. When he confronts Obi-Wan on Mustafar, neither of them wants to kill the other. Obi-Wan begs Anakin to come back with him, while Anakin demands that Obi-Wan stand down. So with that impasse, they’re forced to fight. And you know the rest.

rocknroll41 said:

Servii said:

rocknroll41 said:

For anyone who cares, I have a new post up on my blog now that touches on this subject: http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2022/12/revisiting-my-empire-strikes-back-hot.html?m=1

Oh cool, you referenced my Tolkien comparison! I’m glad that was food for thought.

Ah, was that you? I remember reading it but couldn’t remember who said it. If you want me to edit the post to credit you then let me know!

It’s alright, you don’t have to.

rocknroll41 said:

For anyone who cares, I have a new post up on my blog now that touches on this subject: http://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2022/12/revisiting-my-empire-strikes-back-hot.html?m=1

Oh cool, you referenced my Tolkien comparison! I’m glad that was food for thought.

Tantive3+1 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Tantive3+1 said:

1. For the 2004 DVD Set, the fullscreen editions were released in a gold color, and the widescreen editions were released in a silver color. For the 2006 Limited Edition Set, what was the official box art for it? I ask because I see different box art and DVD covers for this one.

The original release of the GOUT had gold colored headers, with the box art being photoshopped recreations of theatrical posters. There was a second release in 2008 that was a whole trilogy box set, with Luke and Vader fighting over a blue background on the cover, so that might explain the confusion.

2. Were the official PT DVDs released as a box set?

Yes, to accompany the GOUT box set released in 2008. The cover had a matching design to the OT cover, with Anakin and Obi-Wan fighting over a red background. There were no changes from the individual releases though.

Is this it?

Yeah, those are the ones.

Also, is this the initial box set release for the GOUT?

No, that’s an alternate cover for the 2004 set, I think. The GOUTs were only released individually at first, and didn’t get a box set until the 2008 sets.

I grew up watching them on VHS. Both the 1995 “faces” box set and the 1997 set. I was aware that they were two different versions of the movies, and I liked having the option to watch both. I even kind of preferred the special editions at the time, since they were still relatively new. Then I got the 2004 DVDs, which I loved at the time, and then I got the GOUTs, more out of a sense of completionism than anything else. It was only around 2011 or so, after the Blu-rays added more changes, and the Special Edition CGI continued to age poorly, that I finally got fed up and just watched the GOUT exclusively.

Who’s the main character?

It is kind of odd that construction of the Death Star took so long and was started so early. Even George acknowledged that it didn’t quite make sense for it to be under construction already at the end of RotS, but he included it because he wanted to tie the story neatly together and to convey what sort of regime the Empire was going to be, and the Death Star was a perfect symbol of that. But the more they flesh out the first Death Star’s construction and build up to its completion, the more abrupt the second one feels, by comparison.

I’ve always wanted a Star Wars movie or show with a nonhuman protagonist, so I’d be down for a Bothan spies show.

Ooh, I’m really excited to hear about it! Is all the original cast back? How does their big reunion scene go? How many students does Luke have? Who are the main bad guys?

I finally watched this. I didn’t like it.

In his onscreen appearances, Bail was always kind of a non-character beyond the basic traits of being a good-hearted senator who likes the Jedi and democracy. But yeah, the new canon has unintentionally written him as kind of a doofus.

Besides the things you mentioned, there’s also the fact that he sent Obi-Wan of all people to save his daughter when he has loads of money and influence at his disposal. Also, him sending his daughter directly into the Battle of Scarif is hugely incriminating. With stuff like that, it’s a miracle he lasted as long as he did, and realistically, he would have been “disappeared” by the Empire much sooner.

Spartacus01 said:

This is a list of all the major changes I would make to the current Prequel Trilogy:

1. The Clone War that is fought during the Trilogy should not be the only Clone War. Before the Prequels, there should be another Clone War, in which the Clone Masters created an Army of Clones and tried to take over the Galaxy, just like the Thrawn Trilogy says. Thus, the First Clone War is the one that was fought against the Clone Masters, while the Second Clone War is the one that was fought against the Separatists and it’s the one that was fought during the Prequel Trilogy, and in which Obi-Wan and Anakin participated. This way, the Clone Wars from the Thrawn Trilogy could be seen as true and there would be no significant contradiction with the pre-1999 EU, but at the same time we could also have a war against the Separatists.
2. Anakin’s discovery, his taking by Obi-Wan and how he joined the Jedi Order should be themes that stay out of the movies, they should be themes for novels and comics set before the Prequel Trilogy, between the two Clone Wars. In the first movie, Anakin should be portrayed as Obi-Wan’s apprentice already. The first movie should be like Attack of the Clones, that is, a movie that serves to establish the beginning of the war (the Second Clone War) and the beginning of Anakin and Padmé’s relationship: the second movie should be like Labyrinth of Evil, that Is, an adventure that is set during the War itself; the third movie should be like the classical Revenge of the Sith, so it should show Anakin’s fall and the birth of the Empire.
3. Anakin and Padmé should meet for the first time in the first movie. They doesn’t marry in the movie, nor for the rest of the Trilogy. Their relationship is not a marriage, but just a normal romantic relationship. Thus, Padmé is not Anakin’s wife, but simply his girlfriend. Furthermore, Padmé should still be the Senator of Naboo, but she should not be the former Queen. Jamilia should be the Queen all along. So, Anakin and Padmé meet each other when he’s 20 and she’s 25.
4. There should be no rule forbidding the Jedi from having attachments, and the Jedi should be free to have romantic relationships. In general, the Jedi from the Prequel Trilogy should be more like the Jedi from the Tales of the Jedi comics. They should be heroes and should value positive feelings and positive relationships. Instead of teaching how to avoid relationships, the Jedi should teach how to have good relationships and should allow falling in love. Thus, Anakin and Padmé’s relationship should be public, and attachment management shouldn’t be the main storyline of the Trilogy, nor the reason of why Anakin falls to the Dark Side. I have nothing against the idea that the Jedi have their vision clouded by the Dark Side, and I’m also not against the idea that they have become a bureaucratized institution that puts itself at the service of corrupt politicians. I mean, I don’t want the Jedi to be portrayed as perfect through the Trilogy, but at the same time I’d like the audience to be able to share their basic philosophy, and I also don’t want them to forbid such a natural thing as falling in love.
5. Anakin doesn’t fall to the Dark Side to try to save Padmé, but simply to try to end the War. Yes, he’s a slightly rebellious and a little stubborn person, but at the same time he’s very peaceful and would not hurt anyone. In spite of this, the War eventually transform and radicalize him. Such a radicalization leeds Anakin to embrace authoritarian ideals as time goes by (he never treats Padmé badly, though). In the end, Anakin ends up getting so sick of all the War and all the suffering that he sees through the Galaxy on a daily bases, that he becomes willing to do anything to put an end to all of it. So, Palpatine reveals himself as the Dark Lord of the Sith who was always behind everything and offers Anakin to join him, to bring order to the Galaxy and stop the War. Anakin eventually accepts, but at the same time he become corrupted by the Darkness, to the point that he ends up doing things he never thought he would do, such as killing all the Jedi inside the Temple after the activation of Order 66. Then, he ends up killing Padmé (she dies in childbirth due to the injuries he gave her), and the duel on Mustafar would be the same, so he ends up being burned in lava.
6. I have nothing against the use of the Clones by the Republic, but I think the Separatists should use a Clone Army as well. So, Dooku and Palpatine would orchestrate the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic, but at the same time they would also create a Clone Army for the Confederacy, obviously using two different people to create the Clones. Also, Jango Fett should not exist. The Prequel Trilogy should respect the pre-1999 lore, therefore Boba Fett’s backstory shouldn’t change. So, the Clones used by the Republic are Clones of an important Mandalorian bounty hunter, which is not related to Boba Fett, though.
7. I have nothing against the idea of Yoda using a lightsaber to fight, but I think he should only use the lightsaber once, that is, during the final duel against Darth Sidious in the third movie. That should be the first and last time we see Yoda using his lightsaber in all of the movies.
8. Anakin is not the Chosen One. There should be no Chosen One in general. Anakin should have a biological father and mother like all normal humans, and he should be a normal human without any divine or special connotations. However, Anakin never knew his father, as he died before he was born. After Anakin left Tatooine to become a Jedi, Shmi married again. She married Cliegg Lars and lived with him, Owen and Beru for many years. However, she died before the Prequel Trilogy began, so we never see her. Sometimes Anakin mentions her during the course of the three movies, though, and throughout the trilogy Anakin should visit the Lars family at least once. This way, we have the opportunity to explore the frictions and differences between Owen and Anakin, of which Obi-Wan talks about in Star Wars (1977).

I’m currently planning to rewrite the Prequels by using this main concepts. My Trilogy will be based on the premise that most of the pre-1999 EU is Canon, and Rogue One will be considered Canon as well. If any of you are interested, maybe I could open a specific thread about it…

This all sounds really good. As time has gone on, I’ve started to think that the whole Chosen One prophecy is a bit of a narrative crutch. Anakin’s fall would have been more compelling if, instead of being a child of prophecy, Anakin is shown distinguishing himself through his good deeds and heroic acts. As the war would go on, the people of the Republic would look to him more and more as their champion. He’d become this symbol of hope to the galaxy, all while the war continues to traumatize and wear away at him, until he finally snaps under the pressure of watching everything crumble around him.

Fullmetaled said:

Servii said:

Fullmetaled said:

Servii said:

It would have higher res textures and maybe more real-looking movements and expressions. This would apply to any older CGI model that got updated years later. I’m not sure why the question is about Yoda specifically. We can imagine what a 2022 CG model of Yoda would look like, but it’s not like we can describe the details of it, since it doesn’t exist.

Is there a fan that can show an example of what he would look like for example corridor crew?

You’d have to ask someone like the guys at Corridor Crew. But they’d need a reason to create that. And that would still just be a fan creation, and wouldn’t be up to par with what the VFX industry can create today. At best, it would only look slightly better than the prequel Yoda model, if even that.

I wish one the prequels were actually popular and two that Disney was the kind of studio that would update the prequels effects if it was oh well. 😦

The prequels are popular. It’s just that Disney and Lucasfilm have no plans of making any further changes to George’s films.

Fullmetaled said:

Servii said:

It would have higher res textures and maybe more real-looking movements and expressions. This would apply to any older CGI model that got updated years later. I’m not sure why the question is about Yoda specifically. We can imagine what a 2022 CG model of Yoda would look like, but it’s not like we can describe the details of it, since it doesn’t exist.

Is there a fan that can show an example of what he would look like for example corridor crew?

You’d have to ask someone like the guys at Corridor Crew. But they’d need a reason to create that. And that would still just be a fan creation, and wouldn’t be up to par with what the VFX industry can create today. At best, it would only look slightly better than the prequel Yoda model, if even that.