RogueLeader

Yeah, that is true.

It would GREAT if instead of Rey getting a pep talk from Jedi she doesn’t know, Rey and Finn’s minds connect through the Force, and Finn, the person she actually knows, gives her that encouragement to get up. It would sort of pay off all that build up, and Rey would realize Finn has the Force without him having to say anything.

Rey: “I saw myself on the dark throne. I won’t let it happen. I’m never leaving this place, I’m doing what you did.”

Luke: “I was wrong. It was fear that kept me here. What are you most afraid of?”

Rey: “Myself.”

Luke: “Leia knew it too.”

Rey: “She didn’t tell me. She still trained me.”

Luke: “Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost. There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

What I love about this change is that it puts the focus on Rey’s emotions and personality rather than her bloodline. Rey is afraid of herself, afraid of her anger and afraid of hurting people.

Despite sensing that anger, Leia still trained her, because she saw that she had a good spirit, a good heart, and her emotions didn’t define her. It’s a great evolution to the old Jedi order chastising their students for their emotions. “I sense much fear in you.” “Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!” “Anger, fear, aggression, the dark side are they!”

Instead, Luke doesn’t chastise Rey for her fear. “Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi.”

I think Luke began learning that lesson in the original trilogy. He learned good lessons from Yoda and Obi-Wan, but he also grew beyond them by believing in the goodness of his father when they had completely given up on him. Luke gave into his anger, but he recomposes himself and threw his weapon down.

To me, the lesson I think Rey is learning is that her emotions are natural parts of who she is, and she shouldn’t try to purge her fear or anger, but acknowledge them. This would be like assimilating with one’s Shadow, in Jungian psychology.

If anything, I would cut, “If you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost.” To me this line is too reminiscent to this interaction with Luke and Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan: You must face Darth Vader again.

Luke: But I can’t kill my own father.

Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope.

Obi-Wan is basically giving Luke an ultimatum, kill your father, or let the Emperor win. Luke later proves him wrong, so I don’t think Luke would/should give Rey a similar ultimatum. Not because of the implication that he’s telling her to kill Palpatine, because obviously she has to do that, but I think that kind of sentence puts a lot of pressure on Rey and not the best thing to say at this moment. I like the conversation being focused on her and her fears, rather than the bigger picture and her responsibilities.

StarkillerAG said:

Hal 9000 said:

I’m not sure which option we will end up going with, and I remain open to 1 or 2. I think it’ll depend on whether 2 can be pulled off seamlessly in my estimation. I know a big hurdle will be the Luke scene.

Makes me sad that I would type “the Luke scene” about Star Wars Episode IX.

I actually think Luke’s mention of Rey’s heritage can be removed seamlessly if you just cut Luke’s lines “Because you’re a Palpatine?” and “Some things are stronger than blood.” That way, Rey says “I’m afraid of myself” and Luke responds “Leia knew it too.” This gives the conversation a new context, talking about Rey’s inner darkness rather than any evil heritage. This especially works if you go with option 6, where the main conflict is about Rey’s destiny.

Huh, never thought about using that line in that context. Good idea Starkiller! Hopefully that can work.

But you’re coming up with a new story, aren’t you? so I think that is a fair idea.

ShamanWhill said:

However, it should be noted that the movies virtually were fully developed. Concept art had been drawn, the stories had been fleshed out by George, and Michael Arndt had written a script for Episode VII. They were fully formed. JJ decided not to use them.

I think calling it fully developed is a bit of an overstatement. George definitely had an outline, but Michael Ardnt left the project because he needed more time to finish the actual script, which Iger wouldn’t give him. From what I understand, it was during this process that Ardnt was trying to figure out how to fit Luke into the story without overshadowing the new characters, which was when they came up with the idea of making him the thing the heroes are actually searching for.

The development process was exactly that, a development. If you’re trying to go off of what we know about George’s original treatments (and treatment are basically just summaries of a story that can fit onto a few pages, if not a single page), that’s one thing. But ideas clearly changed as development continued, and I doubt anything was really fully developed for George’s original ideas.

I really think we need to map out what exactly we know from the development process. I might do that and post it later.

NeverarGreat said:

On the shuttle scene, the music feels odd to me. Right as it cuts to the shuttle there’s a sting which is a pretty clear signal for a scene change, but it of course continues with Rose and Finn. I wonder if it might be better to remove that last three note segue and blend in the shuttle music instead. This would be a musical indication that we will be continuing with the scene.

Of course it sounds pretty good in any case!

I also noticed the same thing. Visually I don’t think it needs anymore work, but maybe the music could be played with a little more.

Yes, Dom is getting into the point of it I think.

Of course there are plenty of valid interpretations of the Force, but I think it is helpful to try to understand what the Force is meant to represent from a psychological perspective, and how that is turned into a message for a young audience.

I think a good way to look at what the dark side represents is through the lens of Jungian psychology. Here’s a video that briefly discusses the Shadow. I think to understand what the final trilogy resolves the battle between the light and the dark should consider how Jungian psychology tries to address the internal battle people have with their own dark sides.

Pop Culture Detective also has a great video on the problems of the Jedi Order in the prequels. While I think it debatable whether Lucas intended these ideas to get across or they were unintentional, I think he analyzes the issues of the Jedi really well, and I think the way the Sequel Trilogy should’ve addressed that is why they are shown as flawed in the first place. This video goes into the masculine and feminine as well, which ties into Jungian concepts of the anima and animus, and Taoism too.

NFBisms said:

I would keep Rey Nobody but somehow maintain the integrity of “Sheev fucks.” But that’s just me.

Comment of the day.

Hal 9000 said:

Disregarding new lore from TROS yet considering the material we have to work with, I like #2.

If I were consulted while the movie was still being made and had that list to choose from, I’d go with 6, or maybe 4.

Option #2 is definitely the most practical option that we could go with. It would require dialogue changes, but generally the plot wouldn’t change that much. It would just change Palpatine’s motivation for wanting to kill/capture Rey.

Option #2 and #6 could share similarities, if #2 also put emphasis on Rey’s potential dark future that Palpatine foresaw. The big difference being Palpatine saw this future a long time ago rather than recently, basically when Rey was a child, and took measures to prevent/enable it.

This really depends on what dialogue we could manufacture, but I think some of my issues with #2 could be alleviated if we could create an implication that Rey wasn’t the only child Palpatine targeted. Maybe Palpatine had commanded his cultists to exterminate Force sensitive children across the galaxy in order to make it harder for Luke to restore the Jedi order. It would help explain the motivation for why Luke was trying to track down Ochi. This way, Rey’s parents could still be tied with Ochi and the Sith could, buy Rey wouldn’t necessarily be some special, predestined Uber Sith.

But, for the sake of simplicity, it would probably be better to take the path of least resistance, which I think would be basically Dom’s ideas for Option 2. Really the major change would just be the hangar conversation. Kylo wouldn’t reveal her heritage, but instead, what Palpatine foresaw for Rey, a dark future where she becomes a Sith, kills her friends and rules the galaxy with Kylo Ren. Then besides that you’re just cutting out any lines throughout that reference Rey Palpatine explicitly.

Once the blu-ray releases, I think it will help us refresh our memories on what we have to work with. Then, we can look at that scene, and others, and see what dialogue needs to be changed and what it could be replaced with.

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Just wanted to lay out a few of the options I’ve heard floating around regarding Rey’s story in the movie, as well as share some bigger thoughts regarding Ascendent.

So, these are some of alternative reveal options I’ve heard so far:

1. Rey Palpatine (Original)
2. Rey Nobody, Palpatine saw her future and ordered to have her killed/taken.
3. Not Palpatine’s biological grandchild, but created her through the dark side, like an anti-Chosen One.
4. Rey Nobody, but she killed her parents. (Remove connection with Ochi).
5. Rey Nobody, but Kylo killed her parents.
6. Rey Nobody, and the main conflict deals with destiny and visions of her future.

A 7th option might be worth trying with initial edits is to just try and cut everything necessary to remove the Rey Palpatine connection, and don’t try to set up some kind of dramatic reveal. At this point we’re all trying to replace the Rey Palpatine reveal with something else, but the challenge with that will be to create new shots and dialogue that fit these alternative narratives. Something like this idea would mostly require making Rey and Kylo’s Kijimi/Destroyer and hangar interactions more action-focused and brief, as well as cutting other brief lines throughout the film.

So basically, the objective could be to collaborate on making only the most necessary changes to remove Rey Palpatine, and make other popular changes, basically as an edit that addresses the major gripes people had with the movie, without becoming too radically different from what we got.

The thing is, at least from my perspective, option 2 and option 7 are essentially the same thing. Option 2 is what you get when you cut out Palpatine being Rey’s grandfather but leave everything else. If you wanted to also remove Palpatine seeing her future and ordering her to be killed, you’d end up with a more drastic/radical edit than option 2, because you’d in effect be removing everything from Kylo and Rey’s star destroyer interactions rather than just some of it.

Maybe I’m biased because it’s the option I’m going with, but the reason it’s the option I’m going with is that it seems like the absolute easiest way to do it.

Yes, I suppose that is true. One of the stronger arguments to keep that connection is the fact we see Ochi’s ship in TFA, and if you removed the connection between Rey’s parents and Ochi, you would also have to remove the shot of that ship in the TFA vision. It also has similarities to Option 6, but with the additional backstory, right? Because basically your idea was that Palpatine saw her become powerful in the dark side, and essentially a rival, which is why he wants her killed. Option 6 basically has that as more of a recent vision, whereas Option 2 would make it something Palpatine foresaw many years before.

Like you said, the two best things Option 2 has going for it is that is a simple way to remove Rey’s familial relationship to Palpatine, and it also requires the least amount of changes for the movie. Although I do think it is an improvement over Rey Palpatine, it stills hurts Rey’s characterization in two ways: One, it makes Rey predestined for something special even before her journey begins, which I feel slightly comprises the Rey Nobody narrative we’re trying to preserve. Secondly, it retcons the idea that Rey’s parents threw her away like garbage, and we find out that they actually loved her very dearly and “sold her to protect her”. Rey having shitty parents was something I felt some fans likely related to, so I think it is a bit unfortunate to turn that around and basically give her the Harry Potter origin of loving parents dying to protect their child.

So yes, I do think you’re right that it is probably the idea that requires the least amount of changes, but I feel like it still comes with its own set of problems.

Kylo tells Lor San Tekka in TFA, “You’re so right.” Maybe that could be reworked in some fashion.

I agree. Outside of option 7, I think option 6 would be the most feasible “reveal” since we are just reworking shots and other material that already exists. It would still require some Kylo dialogue changes, but no elaborate exposition. But once an Option 6 or Option 7 edit was created, it could work well as a basis for an edit like Option 4, or a 4/6 combination like you suggested.

I think a good way to disconnect Ochi from Rey’s backstory would be to reword C-3PO’s translation of the Dagger engraving. Basically it would still give them the coordinates, but it would also say the the dagger is necessary to find the wayfinder. It would give a reason for Rey to split up from the gang and find it, rather than her having a random feeling about it, and it would set up Rey getting the idea that she could even use the dagger Goonies-style to line it up with the wreckage and pinpoint the location of the wayfinder.

Just wanted to lay out a few of the options I’ve heard floating around regarding Rey’s story in the movie, as well as share some bigger thoughts regarding Ascendent.

So, these are some of alternative reveal options I’ve heard so far:

1. Rey Palpatine (Original)
2. Rey Nobody, Palpatine saw her future and ordered to have her killed/taken.
3. Not Palpatine’s biological grandchild, but created her through the dark side, like an anti-Chosen One.
4. Rey Nobody, but she killed her parents. (Remove connection with Ochi).
5. Rey Nobody, but Kylo killed her parents.
6. Rey Nobody, and the main conflict deals with destiny and visions of her future.

A 7th option might be worth trying with initial edits is to just try and cut everything necessary to remove the Rey Palpatine connection, and don’t try to set up some kind of dramatic reveal. At this point we’re all trying to replace the Rey Palpatine reveal with something else, but the challenge with that will be to create new shots and dialogue that fit these alternative narratives. Something like this idea would mostly require making Rey and Kylo’s Kijimi/Destroyer and hangar interactions more action-focused and brief, as well as cutting other brief lines throughout the film.

In regards to discussing it on Hal’s thread, I think this approach might fit best with the minimalism of Restructured and Legendary. Both of Hal’s edits have worked well at addressing the major issues of their films, but not changing too much, which allowed those edits to function well as foundations for other editors to build more radical ideas on.

So working along those lines, I think it would be great to collaborate on making the minimal changes necessary to remove Rey Palpatine, and use this as a basis for future editors to explore some of those alternatives like I mentioned above. I know Hal’s original post mentioned he was a little iffy on deviating from the canon too much, so maybe Ascendent isn’t the right project for this idea.

BUT, I will say that while Restructured, for example, doesn’t get rid of Starkiller Base, which was arguably one of biggest gripes people had with the film, it did drastically change its position in the film to make the overall film better. I think Rey Palpatine was one of the biggest issues with TROS for many people (and Ben Solo dying being another, imo), and I think it would be difficult to improve that plot point outside of just removing it completely.

Also, since Hal is rather busy with his personal life, we could use Ascendant as an opportunity to collaborate like many here did on Restructured. And Hal could chime in every once in and awhile on the direction the project is going in. Restructured gave us a clear goal that multiple people could work towards, which was focused on improving Starkiller’s function in the story. Ascendent could work similarly, with the goal being to simply remove any connection to Rey and Palpatine (as well as other popular changes, like the other ideas Hal mentioned in his initial post).

I don’t want us to take over your edit, Hal, but since you’ve already released two other edits for the sequel trilogy and you’re busy with life right now, it might be a good way for us to help you round out your trilogy, and work together to improve what is arguably the movie in this trilogy that is in most need of an edit. But again, I can’t recall your stance on Rey Palpatine and I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

So basically, the objective could be to collaborate on making only the most necessary changes to remove Rey Palpatine, and make other popular changes, basically as an edit that addresses the major gripes people had with the movie, without becoming too radically different from what we got.

Congrats on the new job, Hal!

And more complicated for the audience to understand.

I also think Jenny Nicholson had that exact same idea on her TROS review.

I do think it is one of the better alternatives, because you could arguably keep a lot of what is already there. Palpatine could even tell Kylo, “She is not who you think she is” and he reveals this truth to Kylo. Rey still battles with a dark past, but instead of it being about bloodline, it is about something bad she did that she had blocked out of her memory. It also ties in well with her being possibly afraid of repeating the same thing and hurting her new family, she makes a tree fall on BB-8, she almost kills Chewie, and she uses the Force to push Finn away on the Death Star. And finally, she almost kills Kylo. While Kylo isn’t a part of her family, she obviously has complicated feelings for him. That last act was enough to make her decide she was too dangerous and thought exiling herself would be better for everyone else. Plus, I could see this shocking reveal having a more positive reaction from the audience than “You’re a Palpatine.” Most importantly, it keeps the focus on who Rey is, rather than other people around her did in the past.

One downside is that I don’t see a way to tie that into Ochi, the dagger, and his ship without it being really convoluted. The imagery of young Rey blowing up the ship with Force lightning is really interesting, but for one, you would have to make it a different ship than Ochi’s, because I think the similarity would confuse people and assume there is a connection. The dagger could just be an object imbued with the dark side, and can trigger violent visions or memories.
Another think I kind of don’t like about it is that it paints Rey as being powerful in the Force even at a young age, and I prefer the idea that Rey may have shown no special abilities until she started this journey in The Force Awakens. Maybe when she killed her parents was one of the first times her connection with the Force really were displayed, and Rey was so shocked at what she had done, she not only blocked out the memory but also rejected that connection to the Force she had. It could be part of the reason she reacted so viscerally to the Force calling to her in Maz’s castle.

Mmmm, yes, midichlorians!

krausfadr said:

RogueLeader said:

Krausfadr, regarding your idea:

So basically, Snoke/Palpatine senses her future as a potential threat, and ordered to have her killed. Kylo went to complete this task, found the parents and they gave her up immediately. Kylo, I’m assuming, sympathized with her abandonment, so he killed her parents and left her on Jakku. Is that correct?

Yes and Kylo also felt a connection with her beyond just her abandonment. Or the order could also have been to bring Rey before Snoke/Palpatine as she was a possible better apprentice than Kylo.

It might be hard to shape the right dialogue (you should look into those voice emulator AI programs, I know there are open source versions of it, or find a good Adam Driver impressionist maybe), but maybe the Knights of Ren were tasked by Snoke to hunt down various potential Force-sensitives and eliminate them (maybe that’s why we haven’t seen the Knights in the past two films). Kylo specifically was sent to Jakku.

If you have trouble making it to where Kylo kills her parents himself, maybe Ochi was a servant of Snoke, and Kylo ordered Ochi to kill them, and then he killed Ochi and left him on Pasaana. You could create a shot where helmeted Kylo is on the ship with them. That way you can keep the connections with Ochi, the dagger, and her parents, but still make it related to Kylo Ren.

I think Dom’s idea was similar to this, minus Kylo’s involvement. Rey’s a nobody, but Palpatine sensed her future and orders her killed. The one benefit to your idea is that it still frames Rey’s parents as shitty people who didn’t die to protect her, and it gives a good reason as to why Ochi couldn’t find Rey.

The one downside is this would mean Ben Solo has been Kylo Ren for at least 10-12 years, and he would have to have turned when he was a teenager. But I guess nothing in the films really gives a definite timeline on the history of anything, besides how old people look in flashbacks.

Is there a thread that has citations for everything that has been said about George’s early ideas for the Sequel Trilogy? I know most of it comes from interviews and the Art of books. I know this more like fan fiction and it is really beholden to his original ideas, but it might be helpful to go through all the source material and go from there.

The Emperor tells Vader that only together they can only turn Luke to the dark side. Luke willing to die instead of joining his father in Empire proved to Vader that he can’t do it without the Emperor. I think the Emperor’s hold on Vader did play a part as to why Vader would defend him, but I think Vader did wanted to kill the Emperor, but only after his son joined him on the dark side. At the point Luke grabbed his saber and tried to kill the Emperor, I don’t think Vader believed that would’ve been enough to turn Luke. Luke needed to be angrier, give in more to the dark side, before he would succumb. But I think Vader didn’t see it would end with Luke almost killing him instead. I think Luke snapping when he threatened to turn Leia caught him off guard.

Krausfadr, regarding your idea:

So basically, Snoke/Palpatine senses her future as a potential threat, and ordered to have her killed. Kylo went to complete this task, found the parents and they gave her up immediately. Kylo, I’m assuming, sympathized with her abandonment, so he killed her parents and left her on Jakku. Is that correct?

If Rey believes Palpatine will kill her friends, and Kylo Ren destroys her key to finding Palpatine and killing him, it could be enough to warrant her anger.

Basically you’re just changing “Palpatine killed your old family” to “Palpatine will kill your new family”, so if you feel like Rey doesn’t have enough motivation to attack Kylo in that moment, then it is just a problem with the theatrical film.

I’ve had some other ideas, like maybe Rey has vision that Kylo will be the one that will kill her friends, which is why she wants to kill Kylo, and maybe Kylo is trying to tell her that Palpatine is wanting tricking her, wanting to turn them against one another.

Or, maybe Rey’s vision is that she will kill her friends. Maybe in the first vision, she just sees the lightning, but doesn’t see Palpatine. But then during her Death Star vision, she realizes it was her who created the lightning (her lightning on Pasana could foreshadow this). Maybe in the vision she is on/next to the throne with Kylo, so she feels Kylo is part of the reason why she turns to the dark side in her vision. So if she kills Kylo, the vision won’t come true.

So, basically Rey has a vision that her friends will die by Palpatine. But Kylo also has a vision of Rey and Kylo Ren killing Palpatine and ruling together. But on the Death Star, we discover this is the same future, and it is actually Dark Rey that kills her friends in the final battle.

Just brainstorming right now.

Don’t get me wrong krausfadr, if I had to pick between “Rey Palpatine” and “I killed your parents”, I would still vote for your idea!

Every alternative to Rey Palpatine is going to have issues, and I think it is worth pointing out what the issues might have to be addressed to get it to possibly work. Like, if Kylo is going to admit he killed her parents, you have to decide why he decides to tell her the truth now, how does her knowing the truth benefit him and his goals. Does Kylo admit it with regret? Does he confess once he realizes Palpatine has been manipulating him all along?

I was originally thinking that a vision of the future could be what drives Rey to want to personally kill Palpatine. Maybe Rey and Kylo both have visions that Rey, and the Resistance, are going to fail. She could have a vision that the Emperor will kill Poe and Finn, her new family. The vision could show flashes of the battle, lightning coming from below. We could use the shot of Snap’s X-Wing crashing to show Poe dying in the vision. Then create a shot of Finn on the Star Destroyer as it explodes in mid-air.

Kylo Ren could tell her, “You will fail, Rey. Your friends will all die. We can only defeat him together. Join me.”

This vision would be what makes Rey want to personally kill Palpatine.

EDIT: I know it’s a joke but mad libs is an accurate description of what we’ll be basically doing to Kylo’s dialogue for this movie. 😂

“If I tell Rey how I brutally murdered her parents and ruined her entire life, she’ll definitely want to join me then!”

I just don’t know if repeating the same story beat but being like, “actually, I lied. THIS is the real truth!” is the right direction.

krausfadr said:

If I’m able to seamlessly add some Kylo dialogue then I would like to also have Kylo admit he’s the one who killed Rey’s parents.

I’m surprised you want to make this change. I felt it was one of the worst plot points from Colin’s draft.