RogueLeader

Colors look great, man! It would be cool to get a LUT of this.

Yeah, it is definitely a pro/con situation. A part of me would like to be shown rather than told what Kylo has seen that compelled him to take this path, and I think seeing/hearing something would add to the impact of realizing he has been manipulated by Palpatine since the beginning. It would be cool to hear Vader’s voice speak to Kylo at least once before We hear Palpatine mimic it in IX.

Then again, I like Kylo basically praying to his grandfather, and not necessarily getting that response. Leaving it open to the imagination.

I think the issue is that what Vader started that Kylo is trying to finish is left rather ambiguous, and I think it makes it harder for the audience to sympathize with him.

Maybe if you didn’t want manifest a voice or vision, you could give Kylo extra dialogue where he verbalizes his goal more explicitly.

This is what he says:

Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again, the power of the darkness, and I will let nothing stand in our way. Show me, Grandfather, and I will finish what you started.

See. It’s pretty ambiguous. At the very least you could add one line like this:

Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again, the power of the darkness, and I will let nothing stand in our way. I will bring order to the galaxy. Show me, Grandfather, and I will finish what you started.

Your Snoke idea is pretty interesting too! I think it would fit in well when he speaking through a hologram, you could have the hologram voice distort and have Palpatine’s voice merged with Snoke’s. Maybe not immediately noticeable but in retrospect it would be another little clue.

If you don’t mind me chiming in, I don’t think Padmé being pregnant was really a big secret, and I don’t think her being pregnant and unmarried would’ve been seen as scandalous. What she is worried about is people finding out the father is a Jedi. That would be the scandal. If she had a baby with a normal citizen, the Queen nor the Senate would likely care, beyond general gossip. But being in a romantic relationship with a Jedi is not only against the Jedi code, but it is a clear conflict of interest in regards to the balance of power between the Senate and the Jedi.

As far as Anakin not noticing her baby bump, it is possible that it was just hard to notice through a blurry hologram… Or maybe he just thought she was gaining weight and didn’t want to mention it…

Thanks! Yeah, I’ve found that line isolated on YouTube as well.

I wanted to play around with an idea where Kylo actually hears Vader speak to him when he tries to commune with his helmet in TFA. Maybe have a vision (show me the power of the darkness), or just a voice, still not sure. But I thought it could be a good way to add context to why Kylo joined the dark side, as well as foreshadow Palpatine’s manipulation.

I was thinking Kylo could hear, “End this destructive conflict… And bring order to the galaxy…”

Basically, Kylo thinks he has to become this monster for the greater good. To save the galaxy from chaos and “disorder”. So when he kills Han, it isn’t because he hates him, but because he thinks he has to sacrifice any connections to his old identity in order to be powerful enough to create this new order in the galaxy. Only the dark side will give him the power to do that.

Really he is driven by more personal and emotional reasons, but that’s his rationale.

It would be interesting if we could solidify the connection by creating a new vision shot of Snoke standing over the stone wayfinder chest that could be inserted into one of Kylo’s visions.

You could take the shot of Snoke in TLJ when he says, “A new… Vader.” Recolor his robe gray and change the background to a pink/gray sky to match Mustafar. And by intercutting between this shot and the stone chest insert, you could imply Snoke once stood before this relic, either on his own quest to find the secrets of the Sith, or to lay the breadcrumbs that Vader’s grandson will eventually follow.

Sort of related to a ST idea, but does anyone have access to, or know where I could find, isolated dialogue from Vader and Luke’s “I am your father” interaction in ESB? I’m specifically looking for an isolated version of Vader’s line, “We can put an end to this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy!”

This is great. Thanks for the guide. I don’t think I sound like Adam Driver at all, but I may have a go at this myself just to see how effective this could be across different voices. I know every voice will require slight tweaks, though. It also might be useful to change some other Adam Driver dialogue.

I actually think there are some interesting mythic parallels to Rey healing the snake. There’s quite a few times in the film where Rey can take the violent path, but chooses the peaceful one instead.

I had thought about that line, but I don’t know even you can even get an isolated version of that line.

“Your coming together will be your undoing… in about 5 seconds…”

The thing is, if Palpatine knows, would he tell Kylo to bring Rey to him instead of killing her? And if you make that change, how do you differentiate Kylo’s goals from Palpatine’s? Kylo also wants Rey to come with him to face Palpatine, so the distinction is pretty muddy.

Maybe if you made Kylo’s motivation be to prevent Rey from reaching Palpatine, because Kylo knows Palpatine likely has some trick for them up his sleeve.

So change Palpatine’s line to something like, “Bring the girl.”

Then later, Kylo: Palpatine wants you… but I have other plans.

Kylo: We’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. We’ll destroy the Sith, and take the throne.
(Palpatine wants to be killed, so Kylo’s like could be more ambiguous to imply that they’ll find a way to destroy him for good)

Then later you cut Kylo’s line, “The only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me.” Because he doesn’t want Rey to go to Exegol. He just destroys the Wayfinder without saying anything.

It’s kind of weird how we never find out how Kylo Ren finds out about the concept of a Dyad in the Force. When he first says it to Rey, I thought it might just be a figure of speech, but then when Palpatine says it again in the climax, it definitely seems like the Dyad is something special, like the Chosen One.

It’s really too bad we didn’t get the Oracle scene, because it would’ve been a great way for Kylo to learn about it independently of Palpatine’s influence, since Palpatine didn’t know about it until they both were in front of him. Since it was called the Oracle, it would’ve been cool if it had been the source of not only the Dyad concept, but the Chosen One prophecy.

The only other way I can think of seeding the idea earlier in the film is if Kylo hears himself say “a Dyad in the Force” during one of his visions. It can’t be when he touches Vader’s helmet, though, since it has a connection with Palpatine (who doesn’t know about the dyad). Maybe he could have a vision when he touches the Wayfinder that could hint at the Dyad.

Maybe you could edit the film to make it seem like Palpatine knows, and told Kylo about it at the beginning of the film. So you would cut Kylo’s line, “What Palpatine doesn’t know…” but keep “We’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey.” But I haven’t seen an edit yet where Palpatine doesn’t seem surprised by the power of their bond during the climax, so I don’t know if that would work.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I picked Coldplay in particular here cuz (aside from a couple songs; Viva la Vida is godly) I find them incredibly boring.

What? You don’t like Clocks? Yellow? Fix You? Coldplay was on top of the world.

A lot of work, plus you would lose scenes where she actually has lines, like the “be optimistic” scene.

Yeah, I think the struggle is that they are basically antagonistic in every scene before this, so it would be hard to set up anything else before this moment. I suppose you could keep the more subtle ‘forbidden love’ motif and remove the more dramatic swell, or vice versa, but just don’t have both. Maybe you could lay little hints of a romance motif in previous force bond scenes (like you said, idir!). It might hit us differently when we watch the clip in isolation versus being and hour and a half into the movie. It might just require some experimentation.

There’s also another little motif that plays when they kiss, so maybe that could fit into other places too. Not sure though.

idir_hh said:

Reylo is probably a case of either going all in or nothing at all.

I feel like romance is pretty fundamental to Star Wars, so I have to say I’m all in.

Also, we just found out (from Kylo’s perspective) that his uncle tried to murder him, so I think we, and Rey, are already set up to sympathize with him more, seeing as he had been betrayed by his own family.

I also have an idea to try and show more clearly Kylo’s motivation for joining the dark side, and why detaching himself from his weaknesses is a necessary evil, from his point of view. It’s basically what he says to Rey. He didn’t hate his father, but he felt like like he had to destroy his weaknesses in order to fulfill his destiny and bring order to the galaxy.

Haha, that would be a great line to throw in there! I think it would be nice to go through the movies and see what dialogue might be usable for this moment. I think, at the very least if we had some variation of a ‘joining the fight’ line, it would be enough to get that idea across. If anyone has any ideas or leads, that would be welcome.

Something like:
We have to fight.
We need to stop the First Order.

It fits in really well, I think. Honestly, I bet if you showed this to someone not on this forum, I think it would be hard for them to notice what was changed.

NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

Here is my test track (music only): https://streamable.com/pwg1wp

I really like that change, and it actually makes more sense for this dramatic swell of music to accompany their connection. I never really bought Rey’s 180 insistence that Kylo could be turned since their moment of connection didn’t feel ‘big’ enough to drive the rest of the story, but here I finally buy it.

Wow, I’m glad to hear you like it! The original music for the whole scene certainly doesn’t help to imply anything beyond them having a ‘connection’. But I think the ‘forbidden love’ motif, plus the dramatic swell of music at the end, definitely makes their romantic feelings more explicit, I think. It’s also funny to me how well the music fits in, time-wise, without any necessary alterations. Plus, it is another opportunity to replace the overused Force motif. It really feels like the Force motif was used a lot as a crutch throughout this trilogy.

Lesser said:

I just wanted to point out that at 1:09 in your rescore, an almost identical piece plays in Han & Qi’ra’s love theme at 1:05.

https://youtu.be/wummwZCt5s0?t=65

I’m not a music expert other than just enjoying scores a whole lot so I don’t know if that’s a common piece for love songs or anything, but it’s a nice parallel to Han’s doomed romance since Reylo doesn’t exactly end all cheery. Maybe incorporating more of Solo’s tracks would make it more impactful.

Nice catch! I didn’t even notice that… I love Han and Qi’ra’s theme, so the similarities are definitely welcome. Reylo in the theatrical film certainly doesn’t have a cheerful ending, but there’s no telling what kind of edits we’ll end up seeing…

The shitty thing is that no matter what we can change or alter with this film, there’s no way we can really give Rose more of a presence, without any deleted scenes. Rose goes from a prominent character with her own theme in the last film, to a background extra in the last film.

But… this conversation did give me an idea for one small change. For awhile I’ve had this idea of altering the scene between Finn and Jannah, and replace a part of Finn’s schpiel about the Force to something about joining the fight. Basically, we want to get the idea across that Finn is recruiting Jannah to join the cause by sharing how he had his own change of heart in the last two films. It would be nice if we could rescore the last half of that scene, and replace the overused Force motif with Rose’s theme, instead. So the conversation would go something like:

Finn: The Force. The Force brought me here. Brought me to Rey and Poe. We need to stop the First Order. I wasn’t sure then, but I am now.

Maybe you could change it some more, but if you can change the context of the scene to make it seem like Finn is convincing Jannah to stop hiding on Endor and join the fight, with Rose’s theme playing over it, we can feel Rose’s presence and impact on the story more, even if she doesn’t have much screen time herself.

Here is that scene for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jRscLcf3bA

I’ve been away from home so I haven’t been able to work on some bigger ideas on my main work computer, but I did get a chance to play around with a small idea on my laptop.

I’ve been thinking about ways to make the Rey/Ben romance a little more explicit in the trilogy. I think one simple way to do this would be through simple rescoring. One thing Han/Leia and Anakin/Padme have that Rey/Ben lacks is a love theme. It’d be hard to do that without a “love theme” track, like the other two romances have, but we could retroactively establish a “love motif” by seeding it in at least the second film in the trilogy (in comparison, the previous love themes also didn’t make their appearances until the second film in their trilogies). In TROS, when Ben resurrects Rey, the first indication we get that Rey is alive is that her hand comes into frame and touches Ben’s hand. At this moment, we get this great swell of music as Ben and Rey stare into each others eyes. So, I’ve taken this piece of music, and inserted it into the moment when Rey and Ben touch hands and stare into each others eyes in TLJ.

Here is my test track (music only): https://streamable.com/pwg1wp

Just as an experiment, I also replaced much of the music from that scene with pieces of music from the “Anakin and Padme” track from the AOTC score. It’s not the main “Across the Stars” motif, but what I like to call the “forbidden love” motif of their theme. It’s hard to describe, but I think the feeling of that piece represents the inner turmoil Anakin and Padme feel regarding their relationship. I feel like this motif actually works well with Rey and Ben, since their feelings for each other might feel wrong, initially, since they are enemies. It’s not as immediately recognizable as Across the Stars, but audiences might still recognize it enough to associate the music with romance.

Another interesting thing about the music choice is there is a moment in this track that is reminiscent to the build up to the Tristan chord in Wagner’s Tristan and Isolde (compare the beginning with the 0:45 mark in my test clip). For music lovers, this might create an interesting association between Rey and Ben and Tristan and Isolde, who also started their story as bitter enemies.

What I think is also interesting is how the original track for this scene and my test track are actually rather similar. Here is the original scene, for comparison. Similar oboes, similar Tristan-esque notes when Rey raises her hand. It makes me wonder if they had used parts of this track for the temp track. It’s possible Rian saw similarities between this scene and the AOTC scene between Anakin and Padme, since both scenes are visually similar, taking place in a dark, fire-lit rooms.

EDIT: Link wasn’t working at first but is now!

Damn, I definitely think that is passable. The “right” sounds a bit off in comparison to the existing dialogue, hard to explain, but I think this is this first test is a pretty solid example that redubbing Kylo in order to change the narrative is possible.

I love how an alien with literally no hands played the mechanic role aboard the Falcon when we already had a perfectly good mechanic character introduced in the last film.

Well, the shots of Pryde speaking to Palpatine are all static, so you theoretically could mask out Pryde and replace him with Hux, if you can find an appropriate shot of Hux just standing, like when Snoke’s hologram appears on the bridge in TLJ, before he slams Hux to the ground. You could create a close-up of Hux looking at the hologram as well, possibly. He doesn’t really have to say anything at all, Pryde only responds once in the entire scene. And then you could reuse shots of him on the bridge of his Star Destroyer (and possibly the Supremacy) to have him present at the battle of Exegol. It mostly would be a lot of masking him into certain shots, and color grading certain shots to have them match the surrounding shots.

This is a half-joking idea, but if we wanted to reveal that Palpatine had a surprise grandchild, wouldn’t it be funny if it was actually Hux?

In the films themselves, it’s never really explained why such a young officer like Hux has so much authority within the First Order, even over older, more experienced officers. The films don’t really paint the picture of a young, brilliant officer who works up the ranks through his cleverness and ingenuity. Hux is portrayed as someone who is rather arrogant in his abilities, despite his moments of incompetence. In the books, it is explained that his father was a high ranking officer in the First Order, and he basically was given his position through inheritance. You could keep this idea, but it turns out his inheritance is actually a lot more significant than we thought.

You could keep Hux alive until the final battle, and have him speak to Palpatine instead of Pryde during the hologram scene, and Palpatine could even call him his “grandchild”. Yes, Hux isn’t Force-senstive, but neither was his actual son (or clone son) in canon, apparently. Also, young Palpatine was always depicted as having red hair, so Hux already fits the physical description as his potential grandchild. And if it was revealed that Hux was the heir to the Empire, it would add another layer to why Hux is so desperate to depose Kylo Ren and take over the First Order himself. He feels like it his birthright.

Hahaha, I knew someone was going to say that.

But you know what I mean. Force ghosts aren’t normally floaty, and elements that are inserted into shots without being tracked in tend to have that disconnected feeling.