RogueLeader

Haha, a lot of hype for two seconds. 🤣

Filming is complete! I’ll start playing with the footage tomorrow.

Nev, it’s funny doesn’t sound very much like Kylo. Since he’s usually barking order at the captain, I think it’s hard to get that inflection to match with his other dialogue.

Check the first post on the Rey Nobody thread! I think it has the YouTube link and a Google drive link to the voice lines.

I actually finally finished the puppets today! But keep in mind, I didn’t make them extremely detailed because they’ll only be on screen for like, 2 seconds. I basically just took Faraday’s puppet designs and turned them into actual puppets.

But I’m gonna try and film them tonight! So maybe I really won’t sleep. 😂

Thanks for checking, I’ll mess with that idea once I finish the puppets.

BrotherOfSasquatch said:

RogueLeader said:

But like I said, I think it could work both ways, but it might work better if that vision’s connection to Kylo isn’t revealed until later. When she shares what she saw with Finn, she is still is trying to figure out what it means. She doesn’t understand the context. So, when Kylo later provides that context (in this case, that they will kill Palpatine and take the throne from him), Rey’s shocked reaction feels warranted. She putting the pieces together, and the fact Kylo saw it too makes it feel scary and inevitable.

Honestly, just got chills from reading this. I love this line of thinking in regards to that scene.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, Sasquatch! Hopefully it will work.

Also, not to derail the conversation, but has anyone tried/considered having Hux being demoted to “Captain Hux” in TROS? Basically, Kylo demoted him for his past failures, and because he doesn’t trust him. Kylo says “Captain” constantly throughout the Lego TFA dialogue, so it would probably be easy to implement.

In Hux’s first scene, Kylo could say, “I sense unease about my appearance, Captain Hux.” The audience would realize Hux has been demoted, and it would explain why he just follows General Pryde around the entire movie, just like how Captain Peavey followed General Hux around in TLJ. Also, this humiliation would provide Hux more motivation to want to get back at Kylo. Kylo humiliated him, and he just wants to humiliate him back.

sherlockpotter said:

Ah, but you changed that line so they’re not both on the throne, right?

Actually, I think for this version of the story it could go either way. To be fair, even if we were to do a version where Kylo wants to take the throne with Rey, it doesn’t make sense for Rey to say that Kylo AND her were on it. I’m sure she was being figurative, but clearly only one little body can actually sit on the throne. But like I said, I think it could work both ways, but it might work better if that vision’s connection to Kylo isn’t revealed until later. When she shares what she saw with Finn, she is still is trying to figure out what it means. She doesn’t understand the context. So, when Kylo later provides that context (in this case, that they will kill Palpatine and take the throne from him), Rey’s shocked reaction feels warranted. She putting the pieces together, and the fact Kylo saw it too makes it feel scary and inevitable.

I see what you’re going for, I’m just worried that the audience won’t necessarily correlate “Take the Sith Throne” with “Control the Fleet.” I know I never did in theatres; I saw it as him wanting to rule the Sith Empire. Like, it sounds like he’s trying to work inside established Sith-y systems, rather than trying to burn them down and build anew.

I think we’re both pursuing the same angle for Kylo, it’s just a question of the clearest/easiest way of conveying that.

To be fair, Kylo says he wants to build a new system, but he operates within the trappings of what came before him. Red lightsaber, black clothes, a new identity, being committed to the dark side. He even regresses to using his old helmet again. Regardless, I personally don’t think it would be hard for most viewers to see it as “whoever controls the throne, controls the fleet”. Exegol is Palpatine’s little kingdom, the fleet is his army. If Kylo takes the throne, he takes the kingdom, and its army. But maybe some new bit of dialogue from Kylo or Palpatine can be made to make that connection clearer.

Even ignoring all of that, since there is already a lot of dialogue and visuals reiterating Rey’s vision of herself on the throne, and her fear of that vision, then I think you have to correlate that with her joining Kylo, if that is being presented to Rey as the only option to stop Palpatine and save her friends. Also, while I like the reasoning of Kylo saying they will stop Palpatine instead of kill him (because of the spirit transfer nonsense), I don’t know if “stop Palpatine” has the same impact factor as “kill Palpatine”. Maybe, “We will destroy Palpatine” would work better, but maybe this version of the film should keep Kylo not knowing about the spirit transfer.

Same thing - good idea in concept, we’ll just have to see how it works in practice. I trust you, man! Can’t wait to see what you come up with!

Right! We’ll just have to play around with it and see what works. I was trying to keep pacing as similar to the theatrical as possible, but maybe we could get away with trimming more.

Hahaha, you better not say it is inferred, Testing! 😂

Testing, I’m confused man. I don’t think anyone here is arguing his “pull to the light” is literal.

And Sherlock, I guess it depends on how you want to represent Kylo. I see the throne as representative of having the power of the Sith fleet. To control the fleet, he must take the throne. That doesn’t mean he wants to be Sith. I think he sees it as taking the Sith’s power and creating something new with it, whether that is misguided or not. Kylo ends up being wrong, either way. And I think Kylo believes he can get both things he wants, which is the fleet and Rey. Plus, with this interpretation, I think it might work better if Rey’s vision of her on the throne is associated with her choice of joining Kylo, since this seems to be what the theatrical film implies anyway when Rey says she had a vision of both her and Kylo on the throne.

And I guess you don’t need the flashforwards. I just figured you could just swap out the stuff with her parents in her vision with glimpses of the battle. And maybe you could just throw in shots from the battle when things are looking dire, rather than cutting it to make it look like Finn and Poe actually die. I guess you wouldn’t have to show it, though. Kylo could just say she’ll fail and they’ll lose. But I think Rey seeing it in a vision would add to her feelings of doubt in herself. So it isn’t just Kylo taunting her, but it has been foreseen, and it gives Rey a reason to hate Palpatine.

No, that is definitely not inferred at all.

Rey: I lost control.

Finn: It wasn’t your fault.

Rey: It was.

Finn: No. It was Ren, he made you do it.

Rey: Chewie’s gone. That power came from me. Finn, there are things you don’t know.

Finn: Then tell me.

Rey: I had a vision, of the throne of the Sith. And who was on it?

Finn: Ren.

Rey: And me.

That’s it. When she touches the dagger on Pasaana, she hears screams and says, “Horrible things have happened with this.” She’s just sensing her parents being killed with the dagger, even though it totally hasn’t clicked for her yet. I don’t see how someone could infer she had a vision of the Sith throne at that moment.

What are you talking about? Am I crazy? I don’t remember Rey having another vision when she touches the dagger on Pasaana.

Sherlock’s recent comment for reference:

sherlockpotter said:

Solid ideas, RogueLeader. Regarding Rey and the “choice” Kylo gives her, I’d like to be able to emphasize that Kylo thinks the only way they’ll be strong enough to defeat Palpatine is if Rey goes to the Dark Side, just as he did. (“The Dark Side is more powerful!” and whatnot.) Subtextually, this would also be Kylo’s way of validating the choices he’s made this entire trilogy. (“If Rey joins me, and we defeat Palpatine, it will prove that I was right to go down this dark path.”)

So basically, you’d have Rey, who wants to kill Palpatine as a Jedi, but is constantly struggling to avoid slipping into the Dark Side throughout the film. You’d have Kylo, who also wants to defeat Palpatine, but wants to do it through the Dark Side. And you’d have Palpatine, who wants Rey to kill him using the Dark Side, so that she’ll be deep enough into the Dark Side that he can possess her and complete his resurrection.

The Quarters fight could be about Kylo saying “You need to accept it, Rey. This is the only way you’ll be strong enough to face Palpatine. Give in to the Dark Side.” “No!” (This would also, theoretically, come right after Rey’s Dark Side Dagger Vision, if that concept is still in the cards; so the whole scene would sort of revolve around this idea of Rey succumbing, rather than “This is the knife that killed your parents! Ain’t that kooky?”)

Structurally, Finn serves as the angel on Rey’s shoulder, trying to convince her of her goodness (“That doesn’t sound like you. Rey, I know you…”). Kylo is the devil, telling her that she has to submit in order to defeat Palpatine. But when he offers her his hand, she steps back, because she wants to believe that she can still save the day as a Jedi, and not as a Sith. (“I did want to take your hand. Ben’s hand.”) It’s not a clash of goals, but of means and ideologies.

When Kylo destroys the McGuffin in the Death Star, she’s not just mad because he’s made her whole quest pointless. She’s mad because the only way she can possibly get to Exegol now is by joining Kylo on the Dark Side. That doohickey was her only chance of finding Exegol on her own, as a Jedi. And Kylo’s destroyed that chance. You bastard, I’m gonna flippin’ murder you…

Kylo is also torn between the Light, represented by Leia, and the Dark, represented by Palpatine. Maybe Palpatine doesn’t want to possess Kylo because Leia’s influence is still too strong in him or something? (“I sense conflict in you still. You must prove yourself worthy of my Fleet.”)

Thus, Rey’s character arc in the film would supplement Kylo’s, and vice versa. They’d feed into each other and enhance each thematically.

I don’t know if any of this makes sense. My brain is kind of fried from working with the same few audio clips all night haha.

This is actually funny, Sherlock, because I started typing all of this before I read your comment, but we clearly were on the same wavelength tonight!

With all of this in mind, this is what I’m thinking now for a Rey Nobody edit where her parents don’t factor into the story:

Palpatine “tells” Kylo to kill Rey, not because he foresaw Rey killing him, but to make Kylo prove his worthiness. Which works well, since the theatrical film doesn’t say that Palpatine wants Rey dead because she’ll kill him. Maybe he could give Kylo more reasons why he is offering this to him. Basically implying that he has been grooming Kylo his whole life to take over.

Possible lines to Kylo:
Long have I waited, for you to come home…
I don’t have long…
My spirit is weak…

You wouldn’t necessarily need to add any lines, and it would still be on the same level of the theatrical film’s level of explanation.

When Rey has her vision during training, she sees flashes of the battle, her friends in danger, and herself on the Sith throne. Maybe this isn’t necessary, but you could add a shot of Kylo somewhere there with her. (I think you could potentially edit that BTS shot of Kylo in his chambers and make it look like he is on Exegol. Or maybe a different shot of Kylo on Exegol could be used.)

Kylo tells Rey that if the Resistance goes to Exegol, they will all die. She will fail. Again, Palpatine could kill Rey and the Resistance on his own, using his fleet and followers. He just wants Kylo to prove that he has fully embraced the Sith path (or just the dark side) by killing Rey, his “light”.

The flashbacks during the Force bond duel would be replaced with “flashforwards”. Swap the first flashback with shots of the Resistance/Finn/Poe losing the battle, and the second flashback with Finn and Poe “dying”.

Then, the hangar revelation would be something like this.

Kylo: Rey, I know the rest of (y)our story.

Rey: Tell me.

Kylo: I saw what we will become. We won’t just have power. We’ll have his power. We will kill Palpatine, and take the throne. I feel the pull to the light, and you, the darkness. What Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, nothing will stand in our way. You know what you need to do. You know.

Just to point out, I don’t think Kylo sees this as him taking the Sith mantle. He sees it as taking their power away and using it for his own new order. In the end, though, his opinion that he is different than the Sith might just be misguided. But it is important for him to say that since we see Rey on the Throne in the vision.

So at this point in the film, these are our characters’ choices as they’ve been presented to them:

Rey can either join Kylo Ren and kill Palpatine, or face Palpatine as a Jedi and fail. Kylo can either kill Rey to earn the fleet, or find a way to defeat Palpatine with Rey by his side.

While Kylo’s choices are pretty similar, the crucial difference is Rey. We know this is an important distinction to Kylo. But for Rey, her choices are starkly contrasted. No new information is necessarily revealed to Rey, like in other versions I’ve suggested. Instead, Kylo’s theatrical argument for joining him is basically elaborated on (Which I think is a strength, since the Kylo/Rey dynamic is the strongest aspect of the Sequel Trilogy.) Kylo tells Rey that she won’t be strong enough to defeat Palpatine, and he’ll kill her friends. It isn’t until she confronts Palpatine does he present the third option: kill me and become the next Sith Lord. And this would be shocking to Rey, and the audience, because we weren’t expecting Palpatine to make Rey this offer. With the Rey Palpatine version, it seemed obvious.

And I think this editing plan will work well. I’m trying to think this through, but I think with this option, you don’t have to change any of the interactions with Palpatine (outside of the Rey Palpatine stuff). Palpatine knowing, or not knowing, about the Dyad works either way. So does either placement of the “my spirit will pass into you” line. I think this version of the film stays pretty faithful with the movie’s theatrical logic, outside of the Rey Palpatine stuff. The solution wasn’t to focus more on the Palpatine plot, it was focus LESS on the Palpatine plot!

So, this is what we replace the exposition about Rey’s parents with. Rey’s dark seed isn’t her dark origins, it’s her innate connection to Kylo Ren. They influence each other, both positively and negatively. They are each other’s Shadows. Can she be a Jedi if she shares a bond with the evil Supreme Leader? This is Rey’s inner conflict.

EDIT: I’m sure some people will tell me, “Instead of RogueLeader, you should call yourself ObviousLeader.” I know, I know. Maybe I have been overthinking this whole thing, but that just happens when you spend too much time thinking about this movie. At least now that I thought this through myself, I know what direction to take the Force Bond Duel and the Hangar Scene now.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

I just want to address something about the pitched edit of removing the mention of Rey having a vision of both herself and Kylo Ren on the Sith throne. She didn’t have that specific vision at the beginning of the movie, she only had it when she touched the dagger on Pasaana.

It’s not shown on screen, and therefore is irrelevant. When Rey says she had a vision, the audience instantly should think of the one from the beginning of the movie since, ya know, it was shown. In fact, there is no proof that they ever recorded footage of both Rey and Kylo on the throne. So tbh, I’m not even sure what they were smoking when they wrote that line for Rey.

By that logic, Luke’s piloting experiences pre-ANH are irrelevant because they aren’t shown to us.

But we are never shown anything that contradicts that, like Luke being reckless and crashing his skyhopper in Beggar’s Canyon. But we actually see Rey on the throne alone, with Kylo Ren nowhere in sight. We literally just see Rey on the throne by herself… we actually don’t see Kylo Ren on any throne in this movie, despite him being Supreme Leader of the galaxy. Just because something might be “inferred” doesn’t mean it is good storytelling, or cinema for that matter.

Hal 9000 said:

I’m grateful for you and others giving this movie that sort of dedicated thought that I just don’t have any space for anymore.

This is why I chime in or work on projects so sporadically. Sometimes I get the itch to work on this, but then I end up being frustrated with it all over again and spend my free time on other things, until I eventually get that itch again and the cycle repeats.

DominicCobb said:

This is an interesting idea. I’ll need to sit with it and think about how it factors in to the characters throughout the film.

I suppose since I’ve already cut the bit where Kylo tells Rey they’ll kill him and take the throne, this works. I guess if you think about it with the hangar line changes it’s kind of like Kylo is basically saying Palpatine doesn’t matter? I’ve suspected before that his line on the DS “the only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me” was a dub to remove an earlier version where Kylo doesn’t want Rey to go to Exegol at all. Hmm, how might that idea be accomplished?

Actually perhaps most important this change probably makes more sense in terms of my new version of Rey’s backstory.

These kind of logical questions speak to the frustration I’m having while trying to figure out how to make the Force bond duel scene (and the hangar scene) work in a logical way. Tbf, the original film has these problems too I think.

Okay, so Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because he foresaw her killing him and taking the throne. Okay… so, how does Kylo factor into this? Palpatine tells Kylo that if he kills Rey, that he’ll give him the fleet and let him be the new Emperor. So, is he basically trying to tell Kylo that he wants him as his successor, but not Rey? And Kylo believes that?

The movie makes you think Palpatine is telling Kylo he wants her dead because she’s a Jedi, but when Kylo says, “Because he saw what you would become. You don’t just have power. You have his power” that whole speech makes me think he is referring to this dark power inside her, that she will become evil like Palpatine.

Maybe it’s like this: Palpatine wants Kylo to think he wants Rey dead because she will destroy him and his Empire “as a Jedi”. But, Kylo doesn’t want to kill Rey. He wants to show Rey her power and her inner darkness in order to make her join him and destroy Palpatine together. But if Kylo fails to kill Rey and go full dark side, Palpatine wants Rey to actually be his new vessel (assuming if she kills Kylo instead).

This is why Rey says she has a vision of herself and Ren on the throne together (even though we don’t see it). I guess she is afraid she’ll give in to Ren and join the dark side, because she doesn’t know if she’ll be able to stop Palpatine on her own? But, on Ahch-To, after she has defeated Kylo, she is still afraid that her dark throne vision could come true if she goes to confront Palpatine.

Also, I wonder if Rey’s choices are really differentiated enough in a Rey Nobody version like this. Kylo is basically laying out two choices for her: If you go alone, you’ll kill Palpatine and take the throne (joining the Sith/Dark Side) in order to save your friends. OR, you can join me/the Dark Side and we can kill Palpatine together to save your friends. Like, what is the benefit to join Kylo if he just told her she’s gonna kill Palpatine anyway, with or without him? Why does she need Kylo? Kylo hasn’t told her that he will possess her, so either choice she makes, she’ll kill Palpatine and join the dark side. You can argue that joining Kylo is different, but Kylo is basically Sith in all but name, at least to your casual fan. The only difference is Kylo is saying we can do it together.

I wonder if it would make more sense if Kylo told her that she would join Palpatine? That would explain why she would adamantly say, “I’m going to find Palpatine, and destroy him.” And then when she gets there, she is surprised when he says that he wants her to kill him.

Also, isn’t weird that when Rey says that to Finn, Finn says that doesn’t sound like her? Like, isn’t finding Palpatine and destroying him the plan, though? I guess it was how she said it, since it is implying she wants revenge for him killing her parents? So weird. (This is a scene that I think would be improved in a “Rey killed her parents” scenario, because Rey could tell Finn she killed her parents, and Finn could say that doesn’t sound like her. Idk.)

I just don’t think that her wanting to kill Palpatine for revenge works in a scenario where her parents are bad people, or if her parents are not in the story. That’s why I’m trying to work on a version of the Force bond duel scene where the motivation is replaced by visions of Palpatine/the Final Order killing her friends at the battle of Exegol.

It almost makes me wish they had gone with the original plot. Palpatine tells Kylo to bring Rey to him so that they can turn her, and then Rey and Kylo rule as his successors together as a Sith Dyad. But he secretly just wants to drain their Dyad energy. In a potential edit, you could have Palpatine tell Kylo that he will turn Rey by possessing her, but Kylo doesn’t want that to happen, so he is actively trying to prevent her from reaching Exegol. But I’m sure this version of events would have its own problems.

Bringing Palpatine into this film was just a confusing decision.

EDIT: I did watch your work print again recently, Dom, and I do think it does a great job of making the necessary Rey Nobody changes without drastically changing the film.

Don’t have anything to share yet, but working on the audio edit of Rey taking about her vision with Finn gave me the urge to work on Rey Nobody a little more.

I’m currently messing with the Force bond duel scene, which I think is the most difficult scene to alter, because you’re having to actually change the narrative somewhat, and not just cut lines.

I might have something to show sooner rather than later, but this scene is a real pain in the ass. Many of Kylo’s lines “echo” in the other channels, so even if you change/cut lines in the primary dialogue channel, you can still sort of hear them in the other channels. Which means you would have to basically replace the music, sound effects, and dialogue reverb in a few parts of that scene.

With that being said, I still think it’s doable, but if I share a test with y’all, it definitely will be a “test” and nowhere close to final. I’m curious how other people who have tried editing this scene have tackled this issue.

I couldn’t find it so I did it myself real quick (maybe I did this on my own originally…)

https://streamable.com/2v2dd0

“And” being cut might be noticeable to some who are aware of the change, but I honestly believe your hypothetical first time viewer, or people who just haven’t seen the movie since release, wouldn’t even notice this change. I moved “Me” up a few frames earlier, and I think the slight shift helps sell it as well.

I like how Finn assumes it’s Ren with such conviction, only to be left not knowing what to say after Rey says it was her. I think this is the simplest way to handle it.

I definitely think the music needs to be shifted to let the Emperor’s theme play out, if possible, but I this works better than I thought it would. This dialogue interaction feels more natural to me, and fits well with Rey’s character arc.

Some already made a version of that scene where Rey just says “Me.” All you have to do is to snip “And” from the audio channel it’s on. And you don’t even have to change her mouth movements at all. It just looks like she is opening her mouth to talk.

This would just be a one-word cut, but I wonder if Palpatine could just say, “I am the Sith!” and you could hide the cut with lightning flashes. Basically, getting across the same sense of entitlement and ego Palpatine has as his “I am the Senate” line does.

And in response, Rey could still say, “I am all the Jedi.”

This might be more appropriate for the whole “more of us” theme TROS has going, and Rey being alone vs having family and mentors she can depend on, whereas all Palpatine has is himself. Basically, no one person is strong enough to take on when everyone works together.

I don’t really care for the lines at all, but I feel like this reading makes more sense when you look at it from that selfishness vs selflessness perspective, which is an important theme for Star Wars.

This was a pretty interesting video. Honestly, the lore isn’t super far off from what I think the canon has been implying. I guess this is more fleshed-out and thought-out. I was expecting their interpretation of the First Order was going to be entirely different from how they were in Sequel Trilogy.

I think when he says “We will be one” is a great line to try that effect on.

Or, when he says, “As all the Sith live in me”.

Just some examples though.

axlanian said:

RogueLeader said:

I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

Well then. I guess I know what I’m working on next!

YAAS. Whether we cut this plot line or emphasize it, I think either option is better than half-adding it, like it currently feels. I’m interested to see how you approach this idea!

I agree with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an idea that was added during reshoots.

Good arguments. I mean, I personally prefer the Sith collective consciousnesses idea. I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

It just seems like they barely touched on that idea in the film. Like, taking it out wouldn’t effect the story at all. And no one even talks about it. It’s just that “Palpatine” has returned. Palpatine this. Palpatine that.

It would be an interesting thing for Kylo to explain to Rey. Suddenly, the idea of defeating Palpatine seems that much more challenging, if cheating death if something he/it has done for a thousand years.

I think the “I am all the Sith” line could still work in the context of Palpatine presumably carrying the knowledge of dozens of generations of Sith before him. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean he’s all the Sith in one body.

EDIT: And yeah, I think one of the reasons the original plot was changed was to give Kylo more agency. If Palpatine wants Rey dead, and he can clearly be against Palpatine.