RogueLeader

DominicCobb said:

This is an interesting idea. I’ll need to sit with it and think about how it factors in to the characters throughout the film.

I suppose since I’ve already cut the bit where Kylo tells Rey they’ll kill him and take the throne, this works. I guess if you think about it with the hangar line changes it’s kind of like Kylo is basically saying Palpatine doesn’t matter? I’ve suspected before that his line on the DS “the only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me” was a dub to remove an earlier version where Kylo doesn’t want Rey to go to Exegol at all. Hmm, how might that idea be accomplished?

Actually perhaps most important this change probably makes more sense in terms of my new version of Rey’s backstory.

These kind of logical questions speak to the frustration I’m having while trying to figure out how to make the Force bond duel scene (and the hangar scene) work in a logical way. Tbf, the original film has these problems too I think.

Okay, so Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because he foresaw her killing him and taking the throne. Okay… so, how does Kylo factor into this? Palpatine tells Kylo that if he kills Rey, that he’ll give him the fleet and let him be the new Emperor. So, is he basically trying to tell Kylo that he wants him as his successor, but not Rey? And Kylo believes that?

The movie makes you think Palpatine is telling Kylo he wants her dead because she’s a Jedi, but when Kylo says, “Because he saw what you would become. You don’t just have power. You have his power” that whole speech makes me think he is referring to this dark power inside her, that she will become evil like Palpatine.

Maybe it’s like this: Palpatine wants Kylo to think he wants Rey dead because she will destroy him and his Empire “as a Jedi”. But, Kylo doesn’t want to kill Rey. He wants to show Rey her power and her inner darkness in order to make her join him and destroy Palpatine together. But if Kylo fails to kill Rey and go full dark side, Palpatine wants Rey to actually be his new vessel (assuming if she kills Kylo instead).

This is why Rey says she has a vision of herself and Ren on the throne together (even though we don’t see it). I guess she is afraid she’ll give in to Ren and join the dark side, because she doesn’t know if she’ll be able to stop Palpatine on her own? But, on Ahch-To, after she has defeated Kylo, she is still afraid that her dark throne vision could come true if she goes to confront Palpatine.

Also, I wonder if Rey’s choices are really differentiated enough in a Rey Nobody version like this. Kylo is basically laying out two choices for her: If you go alone, you’ll kill Palpatine and take the throne (joining the Sith/Dark Side) in order to save your friends. OR, you can join me/the Dark Side and we can kill Palpatine together to save your friends. Like, what is the benefit to join Kylo if he just told her she’s gonna kill Palpatine anyway, with or without him? Why does she need Kylo? Kylo hasn’t told her that he will possess her, so either choice she makes, she’ll kill Palpatine and join the dark side. You can argue that joining Kylo is different, but Kylo is basically Sith in all but name, at least to your casual fan. The only difference is Kylo is saying we can do it together.

I wonder if it would make more sense if Kylo told her that she would join Palpatine? That would explain why she would adamantly say, “I’m going to find Palpatine, and destroy him.” And then when she gets there, she is surprised when he says that he wants her to kill him.

Also, isn’t weird that when Rey says that to Finn, Finn says that doesn’t sound like her? Like, isn’t finding Palpatine and destroying him the plan, though? I guess it was how she said it, since it is implying she wants revenge for him killing her parents? So weird. (This is a scene that I think would be improved in a “Rey killed her parents” scenario, because Rey could tell Finn she killed her parents, and Finn could say that doesn’t sound like her. Idk.)

I just don’t think that her wanting to kill Palpatine for revenge works in a scenario where her parents are bad people, or if her parents are not in the story. That’s why I’m trying to work on a version of the Force bond duel scene where the motivation is replaced by visions of Palpatine/the Final Order killing her friends at the battle of Exegol.

It almost makes me wish they had gone with the original plot. Palpatine tells Kylo to bring Rey to him so that they can turn her, and then Rey and Kylo rule as his successors together as a Sith Dyad. But he secretly just wants to drain their Dyad energy. In a potential edit, you could have Palpatine tell Kylo that he will turn Rey by possessing her, but Kylo doesn’t want that to happen, so he is actively trying to prevent her from reaching Exegol. But I’m sure this version of events would have its own problems.

Bringing Palpatine into this film was just a confusing decision.

EDIT: I did watch your work print again recently, Dom, and I do think it does a great job of making the necessary Rey Nobody changes without drastically changing the film.

Don’t have anything to share yet, but working on the audio edit of Rey taking about her vision with Finn gave me the urge to work on Rey Nobody a little more.

I’m currently messing with the Force bond duel scene, which I think is the most difficult scene to alter, because you’re having to actually change the narrative somewhat, and not just cut lines.

I might have something to show sooner rather than later, but this scene is a real pain in the ass. Many of Kylo’s lines “echo” in the other channels, so even if you change/cut lines in the primary dialogue channel, you can still sort of hear them in the other channels. Which means you would have to basically replace the music, sound effects, and dialogue reverb in a few parts of that scene.

With that being said, I still think it’s doable, but if I share a test with y’all, it definitely will be a “test” and nowhere close to final. I’m curious how other people who have tried editing this scene have tackled this issue.

I couldn’t find it so I did it myself real quick (maybe I did this on my own originally…)

https://streamable.com/2v2dd0

“And” being cut might be noticeable to some who are aware of the change, but I honestly believe your hypothetical first time viewer, or people who just haven’t seen the movie since release, wouldn’t even notice this change. I moved “Me” up a few frames earlier, and I think the slight shift helps sell it as well.

I like how Finn assumes it’s Ren with such conviction, only to be left not knowing what to say after Rey says it was her. I think this is the simplest way to handle it.

I definitely think the music needs to be shifted to let the Emperor’s theme play out, if possible, but I this works better than I thought it would. This dialogue interaction feels more natural to me, and fits well with Rey’s character arc.

Some already made a version of that scene where Rey just says “Me.” All you have to do is to snip “And” from the audio channel it’s on. And you don’t even have to change her mouth movements at all. It just looks like she is opening her mouth to talk.

This would just be a one-word cut, but I wonder if Palpatine could just say, “I am the Sith!” and you could hide the cut with lightning flashes. Basically, getting across the same sense of entitlement and ego Palpatine has as his “I am the Senate” line does.

And in response, Rey could still say, “I am all the Jedi.”

This might be more appropriate for the whole “more of us” theme TROS has going, and Rey being alone vs having family and mentors she can depend on, whereas all Palpatine has is himself. Basically, no one person is strong enough to take on when everyone works together.

I don’t really care for the lines at all, but I feel like this reading makes more sense when you look at it from that selfishness vs selflessness perspective, which is an important theme for Star Wars.

This was a pretty interesting video. Honestly, the lore isn’t super far off from what I think the canon has been implying. I guess this is more fleshed-out and thought-out. I was expecting their interpretation of the First Order was going to be entirely different from how they were in Sequel Trilogy.

I think when he says “We will be one” is a great line to try that effect on.

Or, when he says, “As all the Sith live in me”.

Just some examples though.

axlanian said:

RogueLeader said:

I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

Well then. I guess I know what I’m working on next!

YAAS. Whether we cut this plot line or emphasize it, I think either option is better than half-adding it, like it currently feels. I’m interested to see how you approach this idea!

I agree with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an idea that was added during reshoots.

Good arguments. I mean, I personally prefer the Sith collective consciousnesses idea. I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

It just seems like they barely touched on that idea in the film. Like, taking it out wouldn’t effect the story at all. And no one even talks about it. It’s just that “Palpatine” has returned. Palpatine this. Palpatine that.

It would be an interesting thing for Kylo to explain to Rey. Suddenly, the idea of defeating Palpatine seems that much more challenging, if cheating death if something he/it has done for a thousand years.

I think the “I am all the Sith” line could still work in the context of Palpatine presumably carrying the knowledge of dozens of generations of Sith before him. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean he’s all the Sith in one body.

EDIT: And yeah, I think one of the reasons the original plot was changed was to give Kylo more agency. If Palpatine wants Rey dead, and he can clearly be against Palpatine.

Oh yeah, that is a good point Jar Jar. It does really make the whole spirit transfer thing kinda complicated.

I honestly believe the early leaks said that the Palpatine we see in the film was originally just meant to be his original body, somehow recovered from the Death Star. It’s dumb, but at least the spirit transfer thing doesn’t have two rules all of the sudden. I also don’t know if spirit transfer was a thing at all in the first version. And as far as I’m aware, it was always his plan to drink their Dyad milkshake before the reshoots. It wasn’t a surprise to Palpatine.

The early version also has Palpatine tell Kylo that he’s dying and has been grooming Kylo as his successor. And he wants Kylo to bring Rey so they can turn her and have them begin a new Sith dynasty. Palpatine is also the one who tells Kylo about the Dyad. Which makes sense, since the theatrical version never explains how Kylo knows about the Dyad. Of course all of it is a ruse to get them to come there together to allow him to drain their life Force.

Anyway, I don’t think any of these dialogue changes would drastically improve the film. At the very least they could nudge the film in a more logical direction. It’s just a matter or figuring it out what’s the most effective change with simple, unobtrusive edits. You can argue the theatrical film potentially makes sense as-is and none of these changes make a difference. I just wish it was less convoluted, which is what I’m trying to figure out.

Yeah, I like the “All the Sith” idea a lot, but I felt like it was tacked on and not really explored. It just seems simpler/cleaner if it is clearly just Palpatine. Especially since that’s all they call him the entire film. Just thinking out loud though.

That interpretation is interesting Jar Jar. I don’t think we could get a lot of that across just in the film, though. That there are two different types of spirit transfer or whatever.

I also wish that the whole Dyad term was used or explained earlier in the film, or a previous film.

I think this is something I’ve talked about way back in this thread.

It would take a bit of FX work, but if you wanted to have Hux live until the end, these are a few changes I think you could make:

1. Cut his death scene.

2. Replace Pryde with Hux when he speaks to Palpatine’s hologram.

3. Use footage from TLJ to have Hux be on the bridge of the Star Destroyer during the final battle, and have Hux be the one that dies looking out the bridge while it blows up.

Don’t won’t to derail any other discussion people want to have, but I wanted to try and logic through the possession stuff. Ironically it is the logic of my own earlier suggestions, but I want to make sure it all makes sense. Which, even if it doesn’t 100% make sense, I guess it still would be on par with the theatrical film.

In regards to this edit, since Palpatine tells Kylo at the beginning that if he kills him that his spirit will pass into Kylo, why wouldn’t Kylo tell Rey that if she tries to kill Palpatine, that he would possess her? Since Palpatine told him that at the beginning, and Kylo knows Rey wants to kill Palpatine, he could use that info to make her believe that only through the power of their Dyad can they truly defeat him. I don’t think this is necessarily a plot hole, but I think it would help strengthen this idea if there is a strong reason why Kylo wouldn’t try this.

I guess it wouldn’t necessarily make a difference though. Even if he told her, she goes to Exegol thinking she will be able to defeat him another way without Kylo. She only acts like she might go through with it once she realizes “killing” him might be the only way to save her friends. Which I guess brings us back to a similar place as the theatrical film, sort of defeating the purpose of moving the “spirit” line to the beginning in the first place.

Originally, the earlier placement of the spirit line was meant to accomplish 3 things:

1. It gave the audience a better idea of how Palpatine survived when he is first introduced. (Clones + spirit transfer)
2. It gave Kylo a reason why he simply couldn’t kill Palpatine and take the fleet then and there.
3. It made it so Palpatine didn’t villain-splain his plan to Rey later in the film. Plus, it creates dramatic irony for the audience, since we would know what would really happen if Rey kills him.

Perhaps that line could be moved back to the end, but the line could be changed to just, “Kill me, and my power will pass into you… You will be Empress, we will be one.”

This would give the line some ambiguity still, something of Palpatine will pass into Rey. Palpatine wants Rey to believe that she will get his power. But the “We will be one” line provides some ambiguity, and makes us (and Rey) wonder how much of Palpatine will still persist if she commits to the act. Also, it removes the “as all the Sith live in me” aspect, which makes things unnecessarily complicated. Let it just be Palpatine.

And for earlier in the film with Kylo, the original lines went like this-

Kylo: You’ll die first.

Palpatine: I have died before. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

It currently is this-

Palpatine: I have died before. Kill me and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.

Instead, it could go something like this-

Palpatine: Kill me. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

Palpatine sort of did this already, but Palpatine straight up telling Kylo to kill him is more explicitly reverse psychology. Kylo probably wasn’t expecting that response, and those two lines paired together implies that if he kills him, that some unnatural things might happen. This comes off as more of a threat than him simply saying “I have died before”. Although he is still referring to spirit transfer, like my original suggestion, it isn’t explicitly said. This allows Kylo to believe killing him directly would be a bad idea, but still leave him in the dark as to exactly why.

I also think between Palpatine telling him to become what Vader couldn’t, and that he will rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor, it would be interesting if he were to tell Kylo “My spirit is weak”. Although he is lying to Kylo (or maybe he isn’t?), this gives Kylo a reason why Palpatine is just offering his Empire to Kylo (which he should be extremely suspicious about). He’s basically saying he’s dying, and he wants Kylo to be his successor. I also think it would be helpful to mention the word spirit somewhere, so we know his spirit does play a role in this, and this isn’t just a Palpatine clone or a reanimated corpse. Palpatine’s spirit is in that body.
Later in the film he also says “They don’t have long”, so you could even throw in “I don’t have long” somewhere potentially. Perhaps after, “The Final Order will soon be ready.” These two lines might help give the audience the idea that Palpatine is dying in a way that clone bodies can no longer help him.

While Kylo should still know something is up, I think it helps if Palpatine at least gives Kylo some semblance of a motivation to make him doubt what exactly Palpatine’s plan is. And since the word “spirit” was mentioned earlier in Kylo’s scene, when Palpatine later says “We will be one” we still may achieve that dramatic irony in knowing that it likely means Palpatine’s spirit will pass into Rey, not just his “powers”.

I think this might be a way to give the audience enough information to understand that Palpatine’s spirit will transfer into the one that kills him, but without neither Kylo nor Rey ever being explicitly told that. So, Kylo can’t warn Rey, because he doesn’t know, and Rey is left to believe she will merely inherit Palpatine’s power.

But if someone can think of a good reason Kylo wouldn’t tell Rey, then I guess we could leave everything as-is.

Would love to get some thoughts.

Lol, I’ve thought about that a lot Burbin!

I find the idea of the Sith consciousness really interesting. The implication is that “Palpatine” as we know him is really one of dozens of Sith identities that exist in him, starting with Darth Bane. It is really weird to introduce it, though, when they’re trying to emphasize the power of the Palpatine bloodline. The “All the Sith” thing really deemphasizes the importance of Sheev Palpatine, the man. So why is Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter that big of a deal? It would almost be better to cut all of that out, and imply it really is just Palpatine, and he somehow found a way to really cheat death. You can’t really change the fact they just call him Palpatine the whole movie.

That is true. Though it is slightly different, since in TFA he says, “I will let nothing stand in our way.”

I think the inflection of “You don’t have to say anything” doesn’t fit as smoothly with the rest of the dialogue as “Nothing will stand in our way” does. Like, it carries this attitude that the rest of his monologue doesn’t have, if that makes sense. Though just looking at the dialogue I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

To help with help clear up Kylo’s affiliation and the “killing” question, we could potentially go with something similar to this line change I suggested over on the Rey Nobody thread. (Ignore everything before it since it is Rey Nobody-related)

https://vimeo.com/447063673

Kylo: What Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, nothing will stand in our way.

OR

Kylo: Together, we’ll take the throne.

Though the first option might be better if you don’t want to associate Kylo with the Sith throne. Plus, these lines also might work well for the eventual Rey Nobody version of Ascendant.

I imagine one of those Neutrogena commercials where models splash water on their face, but instead it is Palpatine moisturizing his skin with the tears of the innocent.

Exactly. So, in the film, you have the line, “Weak. Like your parents.” If you could find a good instance of Palpatine saying “to”, you could make the line, “You’re too weak”, or just “You’re weak”.

It would be simple enough to change the line, “Only you have the power to save them” to “Only I have the power to save them”. You have lines like, “Long have I waited”, “I never wanted you dead. I wanted you here…”, and “That is what I want”.

For, “She will take my power”, you have the original line, “She will take her revenge”. There are several instance of him saying “my”, like when he says “my spirit will pass into you”. You also have the line “She will take my life”.
For the word power, you have “Only you have the power to save them”, “A power like life itself”, “The power of two restores the one true Emperor”, and “A scavenger girl is no match for the power in me!” The emphasis on that last line might fit the best, if you can isolate it cleanly enough.

Thanks Jar Jar! I think it parallels well with Anakin wanting more power to save the one he cares about. I think this “rhyming” will help the audience understand what’s going on, since we’ve seen something similar before. I would like it if it could be clarified that Rey wants Palpatine’s “power” in order to control and harness her, well, power. So she is weak in the sense of lacking any control of her own raw abilities, making her dangerous to those around her. But, I think this keeps things simple. Plus, it’s probably the best we can get with what we have to work with.

Nice thought on it being a half truth! Very good way to put it. I think Palpatine works best when he is being deceitful and speaking in half truths.

My head canon for the inconsistency is that the pain and suffering of the Clone Wars is energizing Palpatine, allowing him to appear more youthful. Palpatine trying to maintain his facade as the benevolent leader of the Republic during the 10 years of peace preceding the outbreak of the Clone Wars was beginning to wear him down.

Some great discussion going on here.

I think another problem the film runs into is not showing Rey how the dark side is the “quick and easy path”. She should’ve been given more reasons why the dark side would give her the power to save her friends. For example, imagine her regular Jedi skills were failing to help protect her friends on Pasaana. Instead of thinking she killed Chewie with the dark side, imagine she used the dark side to kill some of the Knights of Ren and save her friends. I think it makes more sense if she thinks that she isn’t strong enough to protect her friends, unless she gives into that dark power. But I think the film constantly reminds Rey that the dark side will actually hurt her friends, so you end up with the situation that was described in the end, where Palpatine is just forcing her to join the dark side, and we personally haven’t seen why she would want to. At the very least it would be nice if Rey actually said she fears the dark side because of how powerful it makes her feel.

Or, maybe she has this power, the dark side is “in her nature”, but it is a risk to her friends. And the only way she can learn to control and harness that power is if she joined the Sith. I think the film already leans in this direction, but I don’t think it is ever really stated this way. It would be nice if Palpatine had actually made this a case for her joining the Sith, rather than Palpatine being like, “Bwahaha! Now you have no choice but to let me possess you!”

And that lines up well with Kylo and Palpatine both trying to use her insecurities to have her “join” them. They’re both offering her what she wants, some semblance of control. It would be nice if Rey’s conversations with these two characters could be altered to emphasize this idea. They’re both like, “join me”, but they don’t give her good reasons why, imo.

It would be interesting if you could change some of Palpatine’s lines to make it sound like if Rey kills Palpatine, she will simply take his power. Power she needs to save her friends. (But in reality, Palpatine will just use her as his new host). So, for example, you could give Palpatine new lines like this.

Palpatine: You’re too weak. Only I have the power to save them.

Then later after she agrees, instead of saying “She will take her revenge”, Palpatine could say, “She will take my power”.

I don’t think either of these things are drastic changes. And it lines up well with what Hal said earlier. With Ascendant, Rey sort of knows that some kind of transfer is happening, but she doesn’t know to what extent. These changes might actually help, because it might make it clearer that Palpatine is misleading her to believe that all that is being transferred is his powers to her. But in reality, it’s his entire spirit, which will take away Rey’s free will. Plus, I don’t think this idea invalidates either interpretations presented from Jar Jar and Sherlock.

Cool cool cool. This project has come a long way, Nev.