RogueLeader

I think one coolest things about the next few years I’m looking forward to is that we will be getting two trilogies simultaneously with (hopefully) two very different stories and vibes. Not only that, but they’re both (presumably) brand new tales. I know people have been craving new stories, and now with the Sequel Trilogy coming to a close, we’re finally getting that. Not only that, but we can’t forhet the TV shows as well, which seem to be pushing technology forward, which was really important for Lucas. I think there’s gonna be something for every Star Wars fan in the next few years, and hopefully the best is yet to come.

Haha, I love the way they’re holding hands in a circle.

I do think the Imperial officers would have tried to usurp Vader if Vader had took Palpatine’s place. The Imperial beauracracy respected and feared the Emperor, and he knew how to manipulate them, but Vader only has fear.

And Dre, I see what you’re saying about Kylo. I always saw his training that he needed to complete was more of a test of his spirit rather than of actual skills. Killing Han didn’t have the effect that Kylo thought it would, and Snoke sensed that, so the whole thing with Rey was another test. I don’t think Kylo’s loss to Rey had nothing to do with skill, but with mindset.

This carries forward with his instability in front of Luke. With the prospect of Rey joining him after Snoke’s death, that was when he was the most confident. But Rey refusing to join him, plus Luke’s sudden appearance, shows that Kylo really hasn’t let the past die, as much as he wants to. If he had, he would have saw through Luke’s illusion and destroyed the Resistance, but his anger and resentment blinded him. He couldn’t let go of the past. So yes, it was a regression. The ending of the film I think demonstrates just how miserable the dark side makes you.

I personally would’ve toned down some of the humor with Hux a little, but I think how all that will be seen going forward partially relies on what Hux will be like in IX. I also think they could’ve tried to touch briefly on the dynamic between the old Imperial guard and the First Order generation, and the tension between them. It could’ve added to Hux’s story a little. I do think Hux seems to have learned from his overconfidence a little by the end of TLJ, like when he tries to tell Kylo not to lose track of their goal by facing Luke one-on-one. And that last look Hux seems to be giving Kylo. It definitely gives a sinister vibe, like they could be setting up something, but I guess we’ll see if JJ carries that forward in IX.

The way RJ handle’s character does make me think his new trilogy will be really character driven, but then again, I think the middle chapter of trilogies can be inherently like that. I would bet his trilogy will be smaller-scale and character driven, but then again he might want to go in a totally different direction than the story he told in TLJ.

I do really hope people will give it a chance since it will be brand new characters. But even if people aren’t fond of it, will also have B&W’s trilogy and all the TV shows, so I think there’ll be something for everybody.

What should his training have involved, in your opinion?

Also, thumbs up for the Dr. Evil meme.

smudger9 said:

So that’s probably the end of these movies I think. My current plan is to take time away from editing and then focus on the live action TV shows… The Mandalorian should be great source material for a few movies.

Sorry that you’ve lost a lot of work, but on the bright side, it may be a sign to try something different! I’m sure there are others would love to take on completing the Clone Wars tv-to-movie series.

And I totally agree about the live-action shows. Not only the Mandalorian, but we’re also getting the Cassian show and possibly an Obi-Wan series that would all be cool tv-to-movie projects. I could see someone doing this for the Cassian Andor series especially, and possibly using extra scenes from the show to reframe Rogue One as the last film in the series, with more focus being put on Cassian himself (possibly by replacing the Jyn prologue with something else). A lot creative potential for these new series for sure!

EddieDean said:

I’m about to have the time and setup to start pursuing a PC-based hobby, and I had thought about getting into fanediting, having been a big consumer for a decade or so.

YES. DO IT EDDIE.

Even with this some people think he might be lying, because Pedro Pascal’s people also made it seem like he wasn’t involved with The Mandalorian, even though he was. Why would Matt Smith need to keep his involvement a secret? I don’t know.

It’s just weird considering how long we’ve just assumed he was in it even though he wasn’t on the official cast list.

DominicCobb said:

I think there’s plenty of humor in the OT that is somewhat meta and dresses down the typical conventions of genre films.

One thing that comes to mind is the gang’s reaction to the Ewoks. I think they take them as seriously as we do.

I think there is some truth to this, like when Rose and Finn give each other “that look”, once during Maz’s hologram and later with BB-8 in the AT-ST, it sorta makes it feel meta. Like, I don’t think those moments would be as weird without those shots (at least with BB-8, it sorta makes sense with Maz, although Finn just making a grossed out face might’ve been funnier!).

I DO think the topic on humor is relevant, since it might reflect his approach to humor in his own trilogy. Who knows?

I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

I personally think it can and should be ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way, though. Think of it the way ancient civilizations deified forces of nature because they believed its unpredictability meant it must be sentient, and powerful. So either the Force is or isn’t conscious, but regardless, I think you can’t argue with the fact that the Force at least appears to be dynamic, to react to outside stimuli.

Let’s look at the prequels. Qui-Gon refers to “the will of the Force” on at least one occasion. He also believes that the Force, through the midichlorians, created Anakin in order to bring balance. So, the Force apparently reacted to the growing power of the Sith and the dark side, and created a conduit in which it can restore balance. The term “Chosen One” itself implies someone was chosen by something or someone with intent. I would also like to add that Qui-Gon should have some credibility since he was the first Jedi to be able to retain his consciousness after death.

We also hear how the Jedi’s ability to use the Force during the prequels has diminished. Regardless of what causes this, the growing power of the Sith/dark side, the Jedi’s own hubris, this clearly demonstrates that Force “power levels” are not constant, and that even the most powerful Jedi’s ability to use the Force is not a constant, static thing.

And throughout both the prequels, the OT and the sequels we hear talk of destiny. In other words, fate, which implies that someone’s future, or a certain course of events, is predetermined. Predetermined by who? Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Star Wars universe, even if characters interpret it in their own ways. This shows that even in the OT, the idea that Force could determine one’s future existed. And again, this does not mean the Force has to necessarily be conscious, but rather another function of a potentially complex system.

Yoda even refers to it as his ally, which at least implies the idea that Yoda sees the Force as more than just a tool like the Sith do. Even visions, like the dark side cave on Dagobah, implies the idea that the Force is trying to show Luke something. I still believe you can interpret this as a conscious Force or the Force merely reflecting an individual’s internal thoughts and emotions. Both Obi-Wan and the Emperor refer to disturbances in the Force, meaning that outside stimuli can in fact make the Force react to it. Like throwing a rock in a water and creating waves.

Also this particular interaction,
Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

This also does seem to imply that the Force can act on its own, guiding a persons actions when that person lets go of their own control and allows the Force to guide them. The person concentrates on what they want to achieve, and the Force helps them accomplish that action. This also could be interpreted as a stimuli-response interaction.

So, the Sequel Trilogy. The name of Episode VII is literally titled THE FORCE AWAKENS. This is further evidence that at the very least the Force is a dynamic system that can ebb and flow. Snoke even refers to sensing it in the film itself.

Let’s get to Rey. Interestingly, Rey doesn’t demonstrate any strong connection to the Force until she is called to the lightsaber. Rey is clearly Force-sensitive, at the very least. She apparently has had dreams of Luke’s island in the past, but no overt uses of the Force. But when she touches the saber, it is like something clicks inside her. Like some repressed connection has awakened. And after that, we see her use the Force more overtly in a few different ways.

And in the Last Jedi, Snoke mentions the idea of the light rising to meet the growing darkness. Luke even implies the idea that he wants the Jedi to end so the light can come from a new, purer source.

Yes, these pieces of evidence can clearly point to the idea of a conscious Force. Rey fit the bill of the kind of person the Force felt worthy to be its hero, so it calls to her both on Takodana and on Ach-To, trying to take her down the necessary path. While Snoke takes credit for bridging Rey and Kylo’s minds, there seems to be a suggestion that a connection already existed between them, possibly originating from the Force (“Why is the Force connecting us?”), especially that it still exists even after Snoke’s death.

But, this also can be interpreted as aspects of just a very complex system of nature. It has been clearly demonstrated the power of the Force and the dark side clearly can wax and wane.

One interpretation could be that all Force-users act as conduits for the Force, and the more people there are that channel the light or dark sides of the Force, the stronger/weaker the abilities will manifest. The Jedi at their highest numbers had a diminished ability with the Force, while the Sith, under the rule of two, were at their most powerful. In the OT, the two Sith rule the galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding, and Luke comes into the picture and becomes a Jedi in a fraction of the time the Jedi of the Old Republic did. Then we have the ST, where it has been 30 years since ROTJ, and Force-users on both sides demonstrate incredible power: Kylo freezing blaster bolts, Snoke connecting minds (supposedly), throwing Rey around with ease and reading her mind with minimal effort, and Luke projecting himself across the fucking galaxy.

And with the Force as a dynamic, complex system, you could also argue that the light/Force is drawn to positive emotions and mindset like a magnet, which could explain the Force’s draw to Rey, and the dark side is drawn to negative emotions and motivations.

This is just another interpretation, but this is just meant to prove that the idea of the Force being dynamic, a thing that lies dormant or grows in strength, doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a conscious entity. The Force having a will of its own seems to be a clear answer, but those two things are not exclusive, and I personally believe they should never outright explain it as such.

And also, I get that the idea of a dynamic Force might not be your cup of tea, but just because that isn’t how you have perceived the Force in the past doesn’t mean that that isn’t the way it actually does in fact work. I personally think this evidence shows the Force is a dynamic system. I’m just suggesting open-mindedness, and you can find an interpretation of the Force can satisfy you, but also reflect what we are shown in all 8, soon to be 9, films. You don’t have to believe the Force is conscious, but you can still believe it is a system that acts and reacts to external stimuli (i.e. the Jedi and the Sith) that at least makes it behave as if it has a will of its own.

Totally understand, and thanks for letting us know. There is no rush! Sorry you have gotten this far and realized you’ll need to go back and redo a lot, but if you’re gonna do the work, might as well make it look as good as possible.

Also, I’m happy to hear you’ve grown fond of the movie as you have been working on it. I’ve had a similar experience myself, the more I go back and watch bits and pieces of it. I’ll go in wanting to just watch one scene, but then I have trouble keeping myself from watching the whole thing!

That’s cool. Where did you get that opening shot from?

Here’s another random idea. I’ve tried to think of ways to make it clearer that Sidious’ “deformed” face is really his true face that has been corrupted by his powerful connection to the dark side. His “Palpatine” face merely being a mask he wears using Sith alchemy or whatever.

His apparent face melting with lightning in ROTS makes this confusing, and some edits alleviate this with the “flickering lights” method. But another idea I had, which may or may not work, would be to mask Palpatine/Sidious in his brief scenes with Maul and Dooku in TPM and AOTC respectively, and then desaturate his skin tone to where it it is almost completely colorless. While he won’t look as shriveled up, it might help sell that idea that wears/removes that “mask” when he switches between personas, to help further hide his own identity. And the masking process wouldn’t be too difficult, considering he is silhouetted by his black robes and hood.

I totally get that, I can be that way too. And I do like the new films and I also know they aren’t perfect either. There are good and bad moments in them for sure, but I still like them overall despite my own criticisms. And I’m not trying to say, “One day you’ll understand!”, but I maybe eventually you’ll have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.”

While I came out of the theater enjoying the movie, there have been times where I’ve listen/read to a lot of criticism and wondered if I was wrong, but eventually I came to my own conclusion about why it works for me, that I’ve since heard from others who enjoy the film. So, you might always hold the feeling you would have done it differently, but hopefully you can appreciate it for what it is more overtime, so you’ll be able to enjoy the saga as a whole more (I can’t recall what your opinion on the prequels are).

And even then, I still think that maybe dialogue could have been worked on here or there to make certain ideas clearer to more fans in general. I think most fans are cool with the general shape of the movie, they just would have liked it more if certain ideas were executed either a bit clearer or with more subtlety.

So, even if some people will never like TLJ as-is, I think maybe some eventual TLJ fan edits might be able to help bridge that gap for them.

Then again, there are also films that just gain more appreciation from an audience overtime, so it might be too early to say certain things could’ve been done differently. I think a big part of it is just gonna be time, when people can look at these movies more in retrospect.

Speaking of which, I don’t see you on the fan editing side of this site as much as I see you on the discussion or preservation sides. Are you into fan edits outside of preservations? You may have discussed these things before on here in the past but I’d be interested if you had any ideas for certain fixes TLJ could have done to make the movie work more for you. That might not be your cup of tea, and I’d get it if it’s not.

Dr. Dre, while I disagree with you on a lot of your opinions on The Last Jedi, I like how you at least can explain the reasons why you don’t agree with certain things the movie did in a very articulated way. I can tell you’ve thought about it a lot. I can totally understand that viewpoint. I’m sure I would be of the same mindset too if it hadn’t clicked for me, personally.

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

NeverarGreat said:

I like a lot of Lin-Manuel’s music, from what I’ve heard anyway, but this song feels off to me, in the specific way that parts of JJ’s Star Wars aesthetic feels off. It’s difficult to describe exactly, but basically it’s a look and sound which is blunt, rounded off, obvious, in-your-face, etc. In contrast, the aesthetic of the OT was quite alien, with a lot of striking sounds and objects which nevertheless resisted obvious interpretation. This is one area in which The Last Jedi fares much better. But anyway, the song feels like a good fit for JJ’s aesthetic, but that’s why I have issues with it. I hope that made some sense.

I know you mentioned using the other track Miranda wrote for the movie (“Dobra Doompa”) instead of “Jabba Flow”, but after listening to it again I do think it might fit that vibe you are going for. Maybe put it in there and give it a try, and this way you are still using Star Wars music, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdAD9VZta3o

How about a movie like War Horse, but it follows the life of a droid as it is being passed from owner to owner over a 50-100 year time period? Kind of a weird plot structure, with potentially interesting character interactions.

NeverarGreat said:

RL, you had suggested a change to the restructure where Kylo senses Han, so here it is implemented:

https://vimeo.com/321409045

Password: fanedit

I decided to cut the preceding dialogue since it weirdly concerned only Rey and not the group of people Kylo knows are nearby.

Yeah, this works very well I think!

Yeah, I had the same thought. I think my first ever post on OT.com was basically this idea. The main difference to A New Hope, like Nev said, is just to have the Death Star blow up into large chunks rather than it just disappearing in one big explosion. Luke stills blows up the Death Star, but you’re basically just changing the way the Death Star blows up a little. It’s still a big explosion either way.

And regardless of the level of destruction the Death Star takes, the Rebels will still flee Yavin when the Imperial fleet eventually shows up. And yeah, after they leave, they probably could just haul the usable remains to a secret location (Endor). So I don’t think that is an issue.

You could do a few extra things to help with this idea as well. In the ESB opening crawl, you can change the word “destroyed” to “devastated” regarding the Death Star. The first scene with Darth Vader, when he is looking out the window of the Executor, we could see the damaged Death Star being repaired, maybe a little smaller than the ROTJ Death Star.

Then in ROTJ, you would just want to change the opening call to refer to this Death Star as being “reconstructed”. During the rebel briefing, you also might need to alter some dialogue to get that idea across.

I think there are cool ideas about making it the same, single Death Star, but if you think about it, if a ship or vehicle is damaged enough, then it is basically totaled. You can scrap it for parts, but you’re most likely better replacing your car or whatever with a brand new one, rather than making the severely damaged one work. But this is Star Wars, so story comes before science.

That’s what it is starting to seem like. I believe the title for TFA dropped not long after production wrapped. Production for IX wrapped last month. It is possible they could announce it this month, but I’m starting to think they will wait until Celebration. Some people think that it will be before, because they think there will probably be Episode IX merch with the title on it, which would make it harder to keep under wraps.

I think there are good arguments for both, but we will definitely get it by April 12th or 13th. If that’s the case, it will probably be revealed with the trailer, and it’ll also be attached to Endgame, which will be coming out later that month, on April 26th.

If it drops before then, it’ll be a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.

It almost seems overkill initially, but the difference in color between the cockpit and hallway really does add depth to the shot. Just a little detail that feeds into the reality of this universe.

Well, you just convinced me why ‘old man’ Anakin should be there at the end of the film.

Thanks for sharing that personal story with us. I think us finding these kind of things that help us relate Star Wars to our own lives and families is really what the movies are all about. That being your reason for liking it is one of the most appropriate reasons you could have, in my opinion. I’ll always see that moment differently from now on.

Interesting. The little crossroads you put on the two star absorbing shots feels odd, so you think the flow was better with it?
Or was there not one and am I just crazy? Haha.

I think that does work for sure, maybe if the color of Kylo’s shot was a little more orange to match the sun’s plasma more. Personally, I always kind of saw Starkiller as Hux’s thing whole Kylo was always more focused on finding Luke, so I liked how these two objectives were kind of separated by their own goals/interests, but I think that edit does work.

I had to watch it three times before I realized you took the Death Star out! Pretty cool. You kind can still see the green outline of where it was removed, though. I would suggest trimming the shot as well to kind of make it all quicker. It just feels weird sitting there for a beat without anyone saying anything. Maybe Poe could still say, “This is Starkiller Base”. Even if that didn’t feel right, I think trimming that shot a little could help.

There is a nice fan comic that briefly covers that pilot.
http://www.space-mullet.com/2015/06/05/green-leader/

Agreed. I think Kylo Ren, aka Ben Solo, is just as central to the story as Rey is, or how Luke or Anakin were in their own trilogies. Even if his last name is Solo, he is the grandson of Anakin Skywalker. And like you said, Leia is just as much of a Skywalker as Luke is, and she will still be around in Episode IX (so will Luke apparently).

I understand why you don’t like how it is officially being called the Skywalker Saga, but honestly it is the perfect name for it. Lucasfilm has to consider the continued longevity of the Star Wars brand, so the saga they are about to wrap up can’t just be called “The Star Wars Saga”. We may get new movie series that will be even bigger than the Sequel Trilogy has been. Who knows? Really, all current and future movies will be a part of this never ending tapestry of the Star Wars Saga. Episodes 1-9, though, deal specifically with the Skywalker family, so calling it that is fairly reasonable. The Star Wars brand name has to remain pretty open, because eventually it will be tied to other stories and characters beyond the Skywalkers, if they hope for the franchise to endure.

Ironically, I think one of the first drafts uses the term “Saga 1” or “The First Saga”. I think these three trilogies will forever be the “First Star Wars Saga”, but as a Star Wars fan, I hope the franchise can grow beyond that and explore new and interesting corners of the galaxy with brand new characters we can fall in love with.

I do agree with you, and especially this sentence is spot-on.

Lesser said:

Balance is recognizing the dark side within all things, and accepting it’s existence, in order to fulfill self satisfaction, because there is no way anything can be ultimately good in nature.

To let me play devil’s advocate for a second, both The Clone Wars and The Last Jedi have used Yin Yang symbolism to illustrate the light and the dark as two sides of the Force. Luke seems to go at length to show Rey the aspects of light and dark throughout life and our reality.

Maybe they are wanting to demonstrate the dark side as a part of the Force to not demonize those negative aspects in ourselves. Yes, we all have bad, dark side flaws, but maybe seeing those flaws as evil is not the answer. Instead we have to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of those emotions.

The dark side is still corrupting by nature. If you give into your fear and anger it can lead you down a cycle of hate and suffering. The dark side is dangerous, but it is a part of who we are. We can’t deny it, we can only recognize it in order to overcome it.

So the dark side isn’t some evil we can just stamp out from the galaxy, it is an aspect of us that can lead us down a corrupting path if we give into it. So, the dark side of the Force can be thought of as a chaotic neutral aspect of nature, and when it makes contact with our own inner dark side, it can be volatile. So the dark side might not be evil by design, but people can use it to do bad things.

So yeah, maybe they’re going this route so kids don’t see their dark side as “evil”, just a part of themselves they have accept and understand in order to become a mature person.