Rodney-2187

#1
Alec Guinness

Honorable mentions:
Ian McDiarmid
James Earl Jones
Mads Mikkelsen

If the Holiday Special and prequels didn’t ruin the Star Wars franchise, I highly doubt The Last Jedi will either. People are still talking about Star Wars, and one good trailer for Episode IX is all it will take for Star Wars fever to kick back in.

With no Star Wars movie this holiday season, Disney missed a great opportunity to make a new Holiday Special.

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

It sounds like when things are different, you don’t like how different they are, and when things are similar, you don’t like how similar they are.

What did you want the new movies to be then, romantic comedies?

By that definition then, everyone in the entire saga is a loser.

Life is a series of ups and downs. Not everyone who experiences adversity is a loser and a mistake doesn’t define who you are.

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Did anyone get the new Star Wars Archives book? It looks massive!

It’s not retrofitting to say Luke was whiny and unfocused. He was whiny and unfocused in 1977. Just because Rey defeated a seriously wounded and emotionally compromised Kylo Ren does not mean she is as skilled as him, much less a master.

Just because Rey does something, doesn’t mean anyone can.

Is her journey very different than what we’ve seen before? Absolutely! But it’s crazy to think every force user in the galaxy took the exact same path. I like seeing something different. I doubt her way is all that original considering all the Force users that came before her, just we have never seen their stories. I certainly don’t mind being told a story I haven’t heard before.

She is searching for an identity. I think that is a side effect of her isolation. The same environment that gave her confidence and focus in order to survive also left her with a feeling of loneliness and not belonging. I think she has her head on right and sees her place in the Resistance at the end of TLJ. Can’t wait to see what happens next!

It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant. Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

No training can teach you a mind trick as well a having Kylo browse through her mind. Also when we see her use the Force, she is in distress, not swinging a lightsaber at a practice droid. People often exceed expectations in extreme situations.

A lot of the Jedi training also appears to be their philosophy. They attempt to mold people with Force abilities into their ways. Rey is a scavenger. She takes what she can use and leaves the rest. That might not sit well with some, but I have no problem with her making her own way. I love it actually.

I have no idea where they are going to go next with these new characters, but I can’t wait too see it.

DrDre said:

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

The entire conversation stemmed from this comment made by someone else:

“”“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?
Meh.
Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.”""

I said that that storytelling style has always been present in Star Wars and if you don’t think so, then you didn’t understand the other movies either. I stand by that statement.

I was not insulting anyone. It was not a personal attack. Just my advice to go back an look at the other Star Wars movies in a different light.

Rey is an autodidact. She has been on her own so long, that is just her way. I love it.

Luke was whiny and immature. Most of his training centered around focus. Rey has plenty of focus and self reliance. The Force accents traits you already posses. Rey is already a pilot and great fighter when we meet her. You’re right, she is on another level.

Force abilities manifest themselves. Jedi training seems to be mainly learning the Jedi way in how to be disciplined and adhere to the Jedi code.

I love that Rey is not beholden to what came before. If I wanted to watch another movie with a master teaching an apprentice, well we have those movies already. I’d rather see how Rey does it this time.

DrDre said:

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims.

I do not agree with your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but I can’t do anything about how you choose to see things. I just think it is a very pessimistic view and projects a lot into the story.

My original comment was the same symbolic and moralistic storytelling that is present in The Last Jedi is also present in the other Star Wars movies. You are free to like and dislike whatever you want or interpret things however pessimistically you choose, but to try and boil Star Wars down to the previous movies being simple escapism and devoid of symbolism and moral lessons is just plain incorrect.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Like it or not, I do not care.

NeverarGreat said:

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

Not everyone can, but Rey can, just like Luke was better than a targeting computer on a sophisticated space fighter and a child can be the only human able to pilot a dangerous podracer.

DrDre said:

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

You are entitled to your own opinion. Not everyone likes the same things and art is subjective. But story elements are not subjective and you are not entitled to your own facts.

DrDre said:

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but on my view clashes with the concepts of the modern myth as set out by Lucas.

That is your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but it is not one I remotely share.

Your escapism sounds narrow and dogmatic. I did the opposite of defining escapism as spaceships and lightsabers. My entire post was that escapism and Star Wars are so much more than that. It can’t be boiled down to just one thing, or the absence of several things. Star Wars can be deeply symbolic, a teaching lesson, and provide escapism all at the same time. Like I said, the concepts aren’t mutually exclusive. If you think these themes are new to Star Wars with The Last Jedi, then I have news for you, my original comment about not understanding the other movies either applies.

My comment was in response to saying Star Wars should just be escapism, so it wasn’t me stating absolutes about what Star Wars should be or shouldn’t be.

First off the it can be many things at the same time. It can provide escapism and be deeply symbolic and thought provoking. They are not mutually exclusive ideals. In fact, I’d go so far as to say the best escapism is when we can draw parallels to our own personal lives and the world around us. Which leads us to the meaning of my comment. Star Wars was built by George Lucas from the ground up and based on fundamental character archetypes and symbolic tales. Do you think there is no social commentary or life lessons in the original Trilogy? To say Star Wars is just escapism to me says someone doesn’t understand why the movies carry so much impact. It isn’t all because of spaceships and lightsabers.

I can’t believe how good Samuel L. Jackson looks in the Captain Marvel trailer. Blade Runner 2049 had a good digital facial effect too.

What I find most odd is when people will preface a statement by saying their dislike of something isn’t sexist or racist, but then all of their thoughts are expressed as sexist and racist comments. They truly don’t believe they are sexist or racist, but haven’t analyzed their own position enough to realize what is wrong with some of their logic. I don’t want to vilify all of those people, we’ve all made mistakes and have had to learn and make adjustments and grow. Then of course there are just those toxic people who will never see any point of view but their own. They will never grow and learn. I still believe these are a small minority but are extremely vocal. Hate somehow does that it seems. A byproduct of cognitive dissonance. You can’t reason with these people or hope to win a debate, because knowledge is not their goal.

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

Cassian Andor is great in Rogue One. He definitely shot first.

I like seeing the Rebellion isn’t all white knights and everyone gets dirty in war. Cassian is ready to do whatever he thinks is necessary to get the job done. His new series should be very interesting.

Chirrut Îmwe and Baze Malbus are great too. Baze lost his faith in the Force after the Empire raids the Guardians of the Whills temple while Chirrut remains steadfast in his belief, but their friendship still endures. I love how the Death Troopers, who had been able to easily pick off anyone who stepped out, were unable to shoot Chirrut as he walked to the control panel. He does get caught up in the blast as a Death Trooper shoots the panel itself and it explodes. Baze rushes to his side and in their final moments, Baze has his belief in the Force restored and proceeds to take out the Death Troopers before being killed by a grenade. Chills.

I’m a huge fan of Mads Mikkelsen and his presence elevates anything he is in. Forest Whitaker does a great job of bringing a character from the animated Clone Wars series to life. Ben Mendelsohn is great as Krennic. Very memorable as he looks out to the horizon to see the Death Star, all his ambition, about to destroy him.

Tarkin and Leia do not look perfect, but I applaud the effort and their appearance doesn’t take me out of the movie. I think it is amazing how far they’ve come and can only imagine what they will be able to do in a few years.

Don’t get me started on Vader. I’ll fill up this entire forum!

I’ve said my fair share of criticisms about the prequels and special editions, but never have I just dwelled in a forum and posted unrelentingly with barrage of caustic vitriol and personal insults. I still believe those do not qualify as fans but just a very vocal minority of people who just enjoy being that way. You can dislike something and disagree with someone without becoming a troll.