RicOlie_2

MrBrown said:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

Maybe somekind propaganda in it, but also a nice list of historical things regarding christmas.

 None of that stuff is news to me, and much of it is in fact present in a history series about Christians, for Christians, and by Christians, that I am reading now.

I'm going to comment on some stuff from that page, so sorry about the formatting changes.

EDIT: Never mind, they're fixed now! :)

A.     Popular myth puts his birth on December 25^th in the year 1 C.E.

However, most Christians who know their stuff are aware that that is only a tradition, not the actual time we think he was born.

B.     The New Testament gives no date or year for Jesus’ birth.  The earliest gospel – St. Mark’s, written about 65 CE – begins with the baptism of an adult Jesus.  This suggests that the earliest Christians lacked interest in or knowledge of Jesus’ birthdate.

Very much wrong. The author of gLuke gives many references to dates. He mentions Herod and Emperors Augustus and Tiberius as well as others. From these we can place Jesus' birth sometime in March-April between 6 and 4 BC.

C.     The year of Jesus birth was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk, “abbot of a Roman monastery.  His calculation went as follows:

...[blah, blah, blah]...

I learned that when I was between twelve and fourteen.

 Christmas has always been a holiday celebrated carelessly.  For millennia, pagans, Christians, and even Jews have been swept away in the season’s festivities, and very few people ever pause to consider the celebration’s intrinsic meaning, history, or origins.

No, most people don't know squat about the history of Christmas celebrations. I had never heard about mistletoe, but it hardly surprised me as I had never thought it had Christian origins. There are multiple traditions of the origins of the Christmas tree, but I think the de-paganization of a pagan symbol is the most likely. It doesn't mean anything though. It doesn't negate the value of Christmas, or prove that Christmas is a bunch of garbage.

·       Christmas celebrates the birth of the Christian god who came to rescue mankind from the “curse of the Torah.”  It is a 24-hour declaration that Judaism is no longer valid.

Who believes that Jesus came to "rescue" us from the "curse of" the Torah? If anyone thinks that, they need to read their Bible. The Torah gave a law which was intended to be temporary until the Israelites were better able to accept a new, fuller law. Jesus came to fulfill the law; to update it. It was not a curse either, but rather an imperfect form of the law.

·        Christmas is a lie.  There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25^th.

Christmas is not a lie just because we celebrate Jesus birth on the wrong date. We don't know the date of his birth, so we don't claim that Jesus was really born then. Saying it's a lie just because it's only his traditional date of birth and not his real birth, placed at that time to Christanize Saturnalia rather than have it develop separate from pagan festivities is retarded. I'm sorry, but it is.

·        December 25 is a day on which Jews have been shamed, tortured, and murdered.

It is a great atrocity on the part of those who did it, and I'm sorry it happened. No true Christian would support that. However, just because evil was done on the same day as, or even as part of the celebration for Christmas, doesn't mean that Christmas is all of a sudden a day on which anti-Semetism is a part. Jesus died for all people, not just the Christians, and that includes the Jews.

·        Many of the most popular Christmas customs – including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus – are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

All these have different connotations now. Why does it matter anyway? None of it is necessary to celebrate Christmas. It is primarily a celebration of Jesus' birth, meaning that honouring his birth ought to be the focal point of Christian celebrations at Christmas time and none of the rest of it matters (to Christians, I mean).

TV's Frink said:

Incidentally, forget the analogies for a moment (though they're terribly used IMUHO).  You guys can't agree with your churches' position on homosexuality and expect Bingo to not be offended.

 My analogies were poor ones, admittedly, but that was because I had to think them up in a real hurry as I had something like twenty lengthy replies to make to people's questions. I clarified them over and over again though, so there shouldn't be nearly as much of a problem with them as their is.

I'm not offended that millions of Muslims, and even other Christians, think I'm going to hell. Period. I don't worry about it. I don't worry about the fact that they think some of the music I listen to is evil and I am sinning. I'm not offended that many atheists and agnostics think I'm retarded for believing what the Bible says. Bingo may find it offensive, but I'm not going to alter my beliefs for him. Then I would be offending a whole bunch of other people. If he is offended by my beliefs, well, I'm sorry, but there isn't much I can do about that.

TV's Frink said:

If Christmas is a Christian holiday, why am I expected to celebrate it or be labeled a Scrooge (or worse)?

 I certainly wouldn't hold it against you for not celebrating it. I know lots of people who don't, and I wouldn't expect them to, anymore than I would expect them to celebrate the feast of Mary, Mother of God on January 1 as well as New Years' Day, or observe the liturgical season of Lent.

Bingowings said:

Indeed and that's what was happening here up to the point where homosexuality was being compared to child rape, car theft, streaking etc

You are still letting your personal biases get in the way of your logic. Did you really miss the point of my analogies? Maybe you should go back and examine why, and in what way I was comparing them. If you thought about it clearly then you wouldn't be so offended. I am notorious for using analogies, but I often use extreme analogies connecting only a certain aspect of the two things to demonstrate my point.

And pointing out similarities between one religion and another was seen as mockery.

Where was this (I'm not being sarcastic or rhetorical this time, I do not remember this at all).

Or occasionally using the tools of rhetorical discourse was seen as a means to reject anything I write.

You used them, but badly.

Or saying someone clearly isn't something is the same as hinting that they are.

If you are referring to Warbler, no, you did not hint he was homosexual, but that was a bad example in that case. I may be interpreting it the wrong way, so I apologize if you didn't mean anything by that example. I think both of you are overreacting.

Bingowings said:

...

My sentence about Christmas was pretty much the same as saying Halloween has almost nothing to do with Christianity despite the shifting of All Saint's Day and All Soul's Day to 'coincide' with it?

Christmas is an entirely Christian holiday. December 25, though dominated by such, is not just a Christian holiday. Note the difference? One is the name of a feast day which includes a title of Jesus. The other is a date on which several other festivals and important events occurred.

As for claims that I am mocking the beliefs others I didn't start this thread or any of the religious threads on this board so please don't accuse my of hijacking it. If one is invited to discuss a subject, the discussion is bound to include this sort of material as much as DE's Mormon thread is going to discuss the 'discovery' of the book of Mormon and what it has to say about native American peoples.

Otherwise what is it for?

 I don't mind civil discussion. Go for it. But I don't want debates about whether or not you called someone such and such a name on this thread, or anything of the sort. If you respectfully presented the same information and arguments, I would be happy to have this kind of thing on this thread. But you are not being civil most of this time and are being obtuse with your repetitious and fallacious posts (to clarify, most of your posts regarding history et al. are not fallacious, but some of the claims you are making about others and others' statements fall in that category).

Bingowings comes; serious, on-topic discussion in multiple threads ends. :)

That's a funny name, but it doesn't belong here, Frink! :)

Also, Bingowings and Warbler, please move your discussion to PM-land...on second thought, since my thread is dead anyway, you can continue so I can correct Bingo's mistakes. ;)

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

Warb doesn't even seem to know what Devil's advocacy is. I play it now and then,

I know what it is and thanks for finally admitting to it.

Bingowings said:

everyone does it's a legitimate tool of rhetoric but to just bleat that everything I say lacks legitimacy because I sometimes try to get readers to see beyond the tramlines

the readers here don't need you to get them to look "beyond the tramlines"

It amazes me the number of people here that think it is their job to educate me.

Bingowings said:

After all love the not sinner not the totally unfounded and yet somehow hinted sin right?

huh?

Bingowings said:

BTW I 'resurrected' the debate because I was away due to the Santanic Winter Fest 2013. Santa, Saturn and Satan all being the same figure as Wotan/Odin/Shani.

see this is what I can't stand.  You just have to spew this asinine crap instead of just saying you were away for Christmas.  And why do you spew it?  to mock my and other Christians' religious beliefs. 

...

It's a discussion forum

And you happen to be having this discussion on a thread designated for asking questions about the Roman Catholic Faith.

so when you say that I'm being acting like a donkey for 'insulting' your religious belief in Dec 25th being the Birthday celebration of the the savior being you call Jesus, it is a continuation of that discussion point to remember that the festival has little if anything to do with Christianity to the point that in the middle ages the Catholic Church tried to de-paganise it in much the same way that Jehovah's witnesses do today.

Christmas was placed on December 25 for the very purpose of de-paganizing that date. It was formerly a date devoted to a celebration of the winter solstice.

Jesus was most likely born in March-April, between 6 and 4 BC.

The statue of Saturn the bearded lord of time was bound in his temple in great woolen stockings and in December he was put on display and people would get drunk at office parties and children would be given presents and everyone would wear silly hats.

Why was he placed their in December? Because that was part of the celebration of the winter solstice. Again, it was for the purpose of de-paganizing the festival that Christmas was assigned to that date.

In the North children left their boots outside with food for Wotan's steed and hoped to receive presents in return.

The whole present thing may be one of the reasons that we give gifts at Christmas, but for centuries it was a solemn feast until it started getting livelier in the Middle Ages. The other reason though, is because of St. Nicholas, a Catholic bishop born in what is now Turkey in the 400s AD (that's off the top of my head, so pardon me if I make a mistake). He was well known for his generosity, and so we continue the tradition of giving at Christmas in his name.

Satan was the accuser of man and kept an angelic log of all their misdeeds as did Shani who is represented in the heavens by the Planet Saturn which viewed from the naked eye looks like it has a pair of horns.

In my translation of the Bible, what is translated as Satan in some Bibles in the Book of Isaiah is "the morning star" or something like that, which agrees with what you were saying about that earlier (maybe you were writing about Venus; I'm not sure).

...

It's not an insult to say this it's just the facts of the feast. Either through parallel evolution or outright stealing Christmas as we know has virtually nothing Christian about it.

...

Wrong again. It is a very Christian feast designated to coincide with a pagan feast.

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

This is one of the reasons I can't get along very well with Bingo.   Not only do we see things very differently but instead of having reasonable debate he has to play devils advocate and post stupid things like the photo above and and nonsense like "The Devil isn't in the Bible either" and lots of other points nonsense that simply can't be understood by most people.

...

And saying I'm "just playing Devil's advocate" all the time is just another way of saying my opinion doesn't count because you say so.

It's the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "Naaa naaa naaa naaa I CAN"T HEAR YOU naaa naaa naaa naaa".

I could say "you are blinded by tradition", "painfully provincial" or "ridiculously literally minded" or accuse you of something totally unfounded like being a closeted homosexual.

That would unfair right?

Time to settle this. Bingowings was equating something like accusing Warb of being a closeted homosexual with you telling him he was playing the devil's advocate. He didn't say Warb was homosexual.

Many of his comments were unproductive and rude and shouldn't have been in this thread, but I don't think he was really playing devil's advocate now that I've reread his comments.

Warb's accusation was not unfounded though, so I don't think it is fair, Bingo, to compare his accusation with something as unfounded as your example.

Well, this Christmas thing happened, and then there was New Years', but that's about it (I think).

Px3d

I guess that makes sense. I probably don't usually spend so much time here on the weekends either, which would explain why I haven't noticed.

Is it just me, or was it really quiet in Off Topic today? Maybe all the action was in the threads I don't visit...

I must really have no life if I even noticed this. :-P

Leonardo said:

Not unless you could alter time, speed up the harvest, or teleport me off this rock. ;)

 You're a farmer!? You live on a rock!?

That would be scary! I have no intention of pursuing such a course of action... :P

So were you! :P

Don't worry, it ain't gonna happen.

EDIT: If that was what you meant, Tack.

P-3e

R-3h

LOL, duh!

:P

Where has Bingowings gone off to I wonder? Or has he just been avoiding Off Topic?

darth_ender said:

R-2d

 ...2

 ;)

I didn't connect the dots there, so I missed that Life Dynamics did the video. Now I see what you were getting at. Having seen the video, I know the women were talking about actual abortion procedure, regardless of whether or not the post-birth abortions they mentioned were true. I find it disturbing how they do it most cases, but I'll leave it at that since I know it is a sensitive topic for you and I think I would be wasting my time.

From what I know of your story, I don't think what you did was very wrong, if it was at all. I don't know all the details, but I certainly don't hold it against you. I'm sorry you had to make a decision like that, and now that I know more of the story I understand why it was such a hard experience to deal with (not that just having a still-born child wouldn't be hard).

P-3f

G-2h