logo Sign In

RRS-1980

User Group
Members
Join date
23-Mar-2003
Last activity
8-Mar-2019
Posts
993

Post History

Post
#286392
Topic
High-Def screencap request-Death Star Attack
Time
What, you've got one of the Death Star surface chunks? Knowing you I'd make such wild guess: you're trying to confirm its authenticity?
If I guessed right - I remember there was some album (?) with Joe Johnston's drawings of the DS surface tiles, he designed the form for the mold IIRC.

http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/ANH1080p/bscap0132b.png
http://tiedostot.pilvikaupunki.net/ANH1080p/anh0016.png
Post
#285100
Topic
Star Wars and Homeworld strategy game
Time

I was wondering how many of you, guys, have heard about Homeworld. That’s the title of a real-time strategy game from late 1990s / early 2000s which revolutionized RTS genre.

But I’m not here to talk about the game itself, its gameplay, story nor the sci-fi world created for it.

I want to focus solely on the design, the “look&feel”. In many parts I find it positively starwars-ish - and even the designers admit to it freely: in “special thanks for inspiration” they mention not only George Lucas, but also …Ralph McQuarrie, Jon Johnston, Nilo Rodis-Jamero ! Looks like the boys at Relic did their homework
The people responsible for Homeworld looks are Rob Cunningham and Aaron Kambeitz. Please note that I’m taking into consideration only Homeworld and Homeworld 2, not the Homeworld:Cataclysm, as it was made outside Relic (Barking Dog Studios to be precise) - and surprise surprise - I didn’t like the change.

One of the things I was wondering while playing H2 and watching cinematics, which consist of “animated stills” in black&white, is how a Star Wars cartoon would look like if it was made by those artists? Especially when I contrast is with “Clone Wars”. Unfortunately (for the purpose of comparison) the cinematics don’t show many characters or full motion, but let our imagination fill the gap. What if those short cutscenes were made into full cartoon episodes (few minutes each)?

I find the cold, blocky, detailed ship designs from Homeworld better than some SW EU stuff invented for games, books etc. And H2 made a better visual impression on me than “Empire at War”.

Here is some concept art - not necesarily best picks, but this is what I found on the net. I wanted to make some screencaps from the cinematics, but I can’t play the files out of the game - maybe I’ll try to add them later.

check the Concept Artwork part of this H-related website
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/comp_RCNaabel.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/homeworld216.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/concept_RCcarrier.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/concept/images/4.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/concept_china_gate_mid08.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/concept/images/special_tnx_design.jpg
http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/concept_rough_flag_shadow.jpg

Post
#282638
Topic
Hey guys, remember the time...
Time
Speaking of introducing new slang words, I once coined a new swearword in flightsim community.

gothafokker
("th" as in "the")

It's actually two aircraft manufacturers (Gotha & Fokker) put together, but it looks a bit like the, you know, "mofo" word, which I personally hate.

Examples of use:

"So I made a split-S, went on his 6, squeezed the trigger... and bang! Another gothafokker bites the dust!"
"Those darned gothafokkers won't catch us!"
"I'm a big, bad, mean gothafokker - fear me, n00bs."
Post
#282282
Topic
a future Star Wars game?
Time
Master Sifo-Dyas, this is not the first (nor last) time we share the way of thinking
I do realize that this is a very difficult task, in fact I don't have high hopes to succeed - but on the other hand, if you don't try...
I assumed that a simple fan has no chance (what you said about LucasArts' enthusiasm), but I hoped there may be another way.

The problem - just as with my another project (flight simulator related) is getting to the right people. Life teaches us that it usually only takes to have good contacts to be successfull - you may be dumb, have no talent nor looks, "but do you know who is my uncle?"

Too bad that the bunch of geeks at TF.Net contains only few valuable members, who could contribute - as I expected the thead was flooded with "LOL", "doh", "you n00b" etc.

P.S.: how do you like my reply to their "bantha-poodoo-talk"? (use the link in the first post here to get to my TF.Net thread)
LOL, I was once told by my forum-opponent "you offs people while wearing white gloves", shortly before he quit that forum
Post
#279011
Topic
Where to enter EU?
Time
Cap, that depends on what do you like in Star Wars.

Do you like the pure OT most? -> movie novelizations, Han Solo trilogy, "Splinter in the Mind's Eye" etc.
Like bad-ass Jedi who are remotely related to Luke's grand-grand-grand-children? -> New Jedi Order etc.
Like bad aliens with soul-sucking ships? -> "Truce at Bakura" etc.
Like glowing-sword wielding bad-ass Sith Exxxar-Mofo-Kun, who lived 1000000 years ago before the Death Star was made? -> Jedi Academy Trilogy, Tales of the Jedi
Like starfighters battles? -> X-Wing series
...and so on.

In my very personal opinion it's difficult to find a good piece of EU. In my eyes even Thrawn trilogy wasn't perfect. You have to sieve through a load of bantha poodoo to find one pearl... which sometimes turns out to be written by a fan.

Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Flip through the trade paperback collections at the bookstore, and if you like the art, maybe go for it.

I'd say that most of the covers suck - and looks all the same for me.
Post
#277858
Topic
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?
Time
For the younglings, who have no idea what are we talking about here:
http://www.videogamecritic.net/images/segacd/star_wars_chess.jpg

Originally posted by: C3PX
[...]Yoda would always use the force to influence them to do something stupid, like telling a Stormtrooper his gun is backwards so that he shoots himself.

Makes you think about the difference between OT and PT Yoda, eh? He didn't use to be mad-ninja-master/green-monkey-with-lightsaber.
Post
#277632
Topic
a future Star Wars game?
Time
I thought I should elaborate on the idea I mentioned in the SW:FU thread, but to keep that thread clear I decided to create my own.

I have also posted this on TF.Net forums. I'm not a big fan of TF.Net (you can see I woke up my dormant profile there) and I'm more attached to this forum, but they have plenty of users and my questions need exposure - maybe somebody can help me, after all?

Hi guys,
I've made a little "come-back" because I'd like to share with you some thoughts. Thoughts that chase me for some time, as the idea was not born "just yesterday" (I've started making notes long time ago). I was telling myself to "let it go" numerous times, but it keeps coming back. I thought that maybe you can help me about it: either give a helping hand with serious advice or... give the idea a killing blow with "hey, man, no chance, dream on baby".

"Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, tell me there is hope after all..."

I've been a PC gamer for over 15 years (and SW fan for over 20 years). I've not only played games, but followed technology milestones, studied computer graphics, programming, read articles about developers, publishers, game expos, latest trends etc. I bought almost all SW-related LEC games. With all this experience (and a very imaginative mind ) I've designed my own new SW game which IMO should be successfull. It's something LEC never gave you, and what every SW-gamer would want (or at least that's what I can infer from your posts, gamers). Other similar games like this had strong fanbase and were generally successfull (which was proved by their sequels). It would be something fresh though, as I'm not just copying somebody's ideas. And I'm not trying to create impossible with "and I want this, and I want that, and I want Jedi, and I want everything SW in it" - my coherent vision is balanced, I know where to set the realistic limits on the project.

I could go on telling you about this game...
But so what? The door is closed. LEC does not want even to hear about anybody's ideas :

www.lucasarts.com/company/job/
NOTE:LucasArts does not accept unsolicited artwork, music, proposals, outlines, manuscripts or other creative material; if we receive such material, we will return it unread to the person who submitted it.

I'll bet they don't want a swarm of geeks knocking at their doors with their silly concepts. However eventually they may fail, because they don't realize, that one of those geeks (and by this I don't mean necessarily: me) may have the right idea: just what other geeks want and would be willing to pay for it... and I get that unpleasant feeling that their own designers/execs seem to have been burned-out for some time, as their ideas are not that spectacular anymore (where are those times when "X-Wing" or "Dark Forces" rocked the world?).


But is that really "the end"? Nothing can be done?
After all LEC cooperates with external developers, letting them create their games. I was wondering if another tactic was used - different approach - maybe there is a way?

How about if some software (game) developer company contacts officially LucasArts and presents them with own concept for cooperation. Hey, it's not "a person", but a Co. Ltd. Would LEC at least sit at negotiation table with them? They do have monopoly on SW, but it's not that they didn't give license previously.

I wish I knew someone who knows the right people in the business (or even LEC bosses) and could bring up my offer to LEC... my former project partner was a poor businessman and I can't count on him (besides, he went broke) ...darn, there are thousands of people here on this board, I won't believe we don't have any game developers here.

I do have some experience with working for game developer. Apart from cooperating on localization(translation) of several game titles released for local market, I was also a project leader in a couple of game-addon projects (related to flight simulators), which started "innocently" as freebies, but later turned commercial (as we realized there's no real chance to successfully complete them without $). For example some of my work was released worldwide by UBISOFT in game addon.

I can work in a team, I can also lead a team (as I did in those projects). Since the projects started as free, I was not only their initiator (spiritus movens) and leader, but also HR guy (rallying new people, negotiating prices, assessing their skills, assigning work etc.), advertising/PR guy (I made articles and ads that were printed in magazines, arranged multimedia presentation in prominent museum in the center of capital city, contacted potential customers via literally dozens of forums, designed T-shirts etc.), manager (I provided the documentation to artists and guided them step by step, assessing their progress), research coordinator (we were digging in several museums and archives around the world, contacting private collectors, book authors etc.), website editor (I designed the layout, wrote several articles and news). I am versatile and fairly "flexible" and I can learn quite fast. I can do some 2D/3D art as well, but there are pros who are better than me (but I still could make some internal pre-production "concept art" if needed).

Where do I see myself in this project ? Under "game concept/design" - I could design the gameplay rules/mechanics ("how-to-play"), visualize the general "look&feel" (e.g. interface), write the outline of the story ("a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."), propose game content ("do we need Eclipse-class Star Destroyers and why" ). And if the game was released on local marked then I'd be the guy translating the manual, LOL


(You have probably fall asleep before reading up to this point )



I hope to get few serious answers from you, guys - hey, I do love to fool around writing ROTFLMAOs on forums, but from time to time there is a need for some serious discussion. I'm counting on you.


There. Since many of you only post here, I've posted the text here as well, so that you could comment on it. Please do
Post
#277629
Topic
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?
Time
You know what? I recently got back to "TIE Fighter"! Oh, my youth years of service in the Navy
The Win95 version didn't want to work under XP at first, but now I tweaked it to submission. And guess what - I even managed to tweak it to accept "X-Wing Alliance - Upgrade" (fan made project) models! Not all work (esp. bigger ones), but starfighters look fine - to be honest, the best TIE models I've seen in games, even official LEC games had their proportions messed up (how come?!?). I even started re-recording hi-quality interface music from original MIDIs (the win95 version comes with horrible recordings!).
I guess I'll give my old game one more ride

========================================================

And regarding my babbling about my own Star Wars game project: I've created a separate thread in order to keep this one on-topic.
Post
#277617
Topic
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?
Time
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
But it isn't the first time EU has had females in the Empire. All the way back to Zahn, Mara Jade was the Emperor's Hand.
You're correct. I remember female Imperial pilot voices in "X-Wing vs TIE Fighter" (~1997) and plenty of female crewwomen in "Force Commander" (~2000). I don't count Mara here - she's a spy/dark-jedi-wannabe, and not much of a regular soldier.
Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Rogue Squadron had Kasaan Moor (or however the hell you spell her name) as the leader of an Interceptor Squadron.

I didn't know that, thnx.

C3PX, I would actually agree with what you joked about. The game's graphic engine looks fine - and the new technology used for physics simulation sounds really interesting.

But just like with SE or PT: it's not enough to just have a wonder-making technology to create true wonders...
Post
#276579
Topic
ROTS Easter Egg - I Am Highly Frightened
Time
The funny part here is that you, iamstillhiro1112, took my post as if it was some kind of a personal crusade against you - but you're mistaken ("...about a great many things" ). I'm sorry to break your egocentric mood, but my post was aimed to all people who share your point of view - and the first one here was bigbaddaddyvader.
Judging from the tone of your post you like to argue on internet forums. Too bad you try to put people's words out of context (like my #4, for example). You miss to make valid points, either. This clip was present on DVD, so it was a part of a product - be it only as a hidden "easter egg". Please prove that LFL intended this to be relased freely (a link perhaps? youtube means nothing - I've seen a lot of pirated content being pulled off from it, including LFL/LEC stuff posted by SW-fans). Don't forget that even putting extra free content on the disc does cost some $, as organizing a worldwide DVD release is a large project, every change and addition means time, and time = $.

And about the extra scenes: let me be the first to enlighten you, that what some people want badly, is an unaltered movie + those restored cut-off scenes as extras on bonus dics. This way we don't mess with the movie, yet still have a chance to see unreleased material.

============================================================

Now, having read the article (thnx see you auntie) I assume this clip was done by LFL employees in their free time (secret project done during the weekends), so it's almost "fan-created stuff", but put on official merchandise. If that's true then I feel slightly better

Do you feel better too, iamstillhiro1112?
Post
#276514
Topic
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?
Time
Now, to stirr up even more... let's play some "Sith's advocate"

What do you say about the concept of Juno Eclipse in FU? That's the blonde woman in Imperial pilot's uniform, shown on the concept art here and here..

As much as I would like to see a hot chick in Imperial uniform (just imagine a black biker in Imperial Gunner suit, removing the helmet only to reveal a buxom blonde behind the uniform ), I'm against the women being shown in Imperial Forces.

Why?

Empire is not meant to be egalitarian, "equal-opportunity corporation". We are to believe it's ruthless, totalitarian, fascist, chauvinist regime. Aren't they the bad guys in the strictest sense? (OT is pretty black-or-white in terms of morality). "No aliens" is not enough to speak to our imagination (becausle in r/l we don't see aliens around), so the movies also portrayed it as "white men only". And I loved how Rebel Alliance was shown not only with aliens in its ranks, but also with both men and women, white and non-white humans.


-----------------------------


And getting back to the plot: this is straight from the gamespot.com article:
Finally, we got to see some sample gameplay from an extremely early version of the game, set inside the TIE fighter shipyard. This level tasked the player with seeking out and destroying General Kota, who was holed up somewhere in the facility. This involved the player [...] ripping his way through waves of stormtroopers and regular uniformed guards with his red lightsaber and Force powers. We asked why Darth Vader's errand boy would be killing a bunch of Imperial troops in the service of the Empire, and were told that since you're a secret agent, you can't leave anyone behind to talk about what happened. But since the troops were shouting taunts at the player indicating they knew why he was there and that he wouldn't be allowed to reach Kota, we have to wonder what else is going on with the storyline here.

"Whaaa...?"

-----------------------------

OK, you want me to stop b*tching and find one thing I like about the game?


I'm just a humble servant, m'lord...
Post
#276498
Topic
See George there's no reason to lie... (future of star wars)
Time
I'd rather want to see "Red Tails" being done than "IJ4".

And if the new "TV live action SW series" is to original "SW" as "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" to "IJ" trilogy, then....

.


.


.

[takes deep breath]

.


.


.

...I may still find Star Trek series more enjoyable than the new "SW-on-TV".




Wait. I wanted this to sound a bit funny... but why am I not laughing at all?
Post
#276495
Topic
ROTS Easter Egg - I Am Highly Frightened
Time
Can't say I'm offended, but I'm dissatisfied. I can already hear some of you saying: "C'mon, don't treat SW too seriously, hey, it's meant to be fun", but please, let me state my point of view.

"Hey, it's made for fun"
Sure. But not every joke is great, despite good intentions. I might have given this one a half-hearted smile, but no more. I'm picky.

Another thing is if this was a clip made by a fan, who meticulously re-created Yoda and stormies, wasting his/her private time, I'd enjoy it more. Just as with SW-theme played on bagpipes (which I posted before). I hate bagpipes. But this guy worked hard to play it well and it was amusing. And this made me put off my hatred for bagpipes to enjoy this.

If some guy wanted to tell a joke in front of the classmates and failed, I'd, too, say "hey, he meant good, don't be harsh on him". Which doesn't mean I want him to pursuit the career of a professional comedian. In the case of rapping Yoda we have a part of a product made by professionals given a hard-to-get license to work on this subject.

So I can't be so easy on them. I'm spending my $ here, so I have right to be serious. In American language: I pay, so I demand. And I demand quality.

I don't hate CGI. I love CGI - provided it's done well and used well. I've always wanted to work in this field. So I'm not bashing it because I joined "CGI haters team".
I know at least basics of the trade, so I know about the resources needed to create even such a short clip. The time to render it on a "rendering-farm" (swarm of computers linked together). The costly motion capture tech. or time-consuming I.K. animation. Somebody from ILM (probably more than one person) was paid to make this one. And it is me who's paying for this, as I fuel GL empire with $ I spent on numerous music CDs, albums, computer games, model kits, posters and yet-another-release of movies.

And all I want is a product meeting my expectations for which I'd pay more $.

There are various people who call themselves "SW fans":
There are "I like everything that has SW logo on it", easy-to-please people, who accept everything. I can't do that, because my individualism means I have own taste and preferences.
There are "faster, more intense!" people, who'd gladly mix SW with Matrix, StarTrek or whatever else they like. I can't do that, because of my sense of style, which rejects such "mixes" (would you like a pineapple-anchovy pizza?)

And who am I? And what do I want?

I'm one of the people for which SW is a trip to childhood days. As I matured I found new ways of enjoying it, new "tidbits" I couldn't grasp as a child - so I can still enjoy a 30-years-old movie. I like the original "look&feel", which is not necessarily tied to old technology (I don't mind cleaning the matte lines and "boxes" around TIEs etc.).

What I'd like to see being done - where the $ should be spent - is e.g. restoring stuff like Biggs&Luke scene on Tatooine. I saw it on CD-ROM encyclopedia in lousy (quicktime?) quality. I want it transferred on DVD. Instead of wasting time on dancing Yoda, waste that time on cleaning that source video, to present it to us in decent quality, so that we can throw our $ on buying it.
Want to make SE edition of OT? Why not restoring the sequence when the snowspeeders attack AT-ST in ESB? They originally shot the F/X in 1979, but scr*wed up sth, so the sequence is incomplete. They could finish or re-do it with CGI in 1997. Why didn't they? This would have no negative impact on the story or pace of the movie. It would give us "more of the original, but in new package", without messing it up.

But no, the marketing execs know better. "Be sure."

Let me give an example. Let's say you often go to a fav. Chinese/Italian/Polish/whatever restaurant - and this is the only such restaurant in your city. If you want that kind of food (and you love it) you have no other option but dining at that place. They have monopoly on this.
It used to be OK, but the food quality/choice degraded over time. You were always giving them substantial tips, so you feel you have right to complain about it (hey, I'm paying my $ here!). But they show you that big sign "customers have no input on the choice of food served - it's all up to the Chef". And the Chef suddenly changed his mind - he wants to satisfy the tastes of other customers, so your fav. dishes (that go with the original profile of the restaurant) are gone to make up a room to what's trendy elsewhere (but out-of-place here).
Hey, it's only food, don't get too serious about it.
(see my post about LucasArts games if you didn't catch the "no input from the customers" line)
Post
#275068
Topic
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed?
Time
Unfortunately I'm with Lord Phillock here... and I wish we were wrong

This could be a good game but for me FU has no chance to become a good Star Wars game.

Notice the difference between these two terms?

I've enjoyed KOTOR as a game, albeit I couldn't shake myself from the feeling that this is a gaming console production and this is not what I expect from cRPGs. However in terms of being a "Star Wars game" KOTOR was only "decent".

If you're not following then read my slightly exaggerated example:

"Gamers! Do you like Medal of Honor, Call of Duty etc.? Like the WW2 theme, read about WW2 tanks, ships and planes? Then you'll love our game! It's related to World War 2, but to make it more interesting it takes place 100 years before it!..."

Get it?

FU seems to be too far away from proper SW "look&feel". It's this new wave of designers "Faster, more intense" instead of "better immersion, more freedom, longer gameplay, more choices". Just look at the design sketches. The fights are going to look like Final Fantasy or maybe Mortal Kombat, with all those Force Uber Combos... (and I agree with what Johnny Ringo said). And the plot? Special Vader's trainees? A half-a55 dark Jedi, then? How many lightsabers at once now, we had 4, so this time 6? 8? Why are they fighting stormtroopers? Super special secret mission for our little Annie, so that even stormies stand in our way? Just as good for the "look&feel" as shooting traitor's TIEs in "TIE Fighter" (when I fly for the Empire I want to shoot Rebels, pirates, smugglers, not other TIEs!).

Unfortunately I will also agree about the degradation of quality of LEC games. Sure there are noble exceptions, but the trend remains. Too many times we enjoy a SW game because there is no other similar SW game to choose. I've played "SW: Rebellion (Supremacy)" simply because there was no other strategy game in SW universe! Beggars can't be choosers - we take from GL what he offers us and we can't go to other company, because only he licenses SW stuff. Talking about bad effect of monopolization on the client's side
Part of the problem is that LEC now focuses primarily on Prequel theme. But this is not the only issue...

"X-Wing", "Dark Forces" were milestones, not only for SW stuff but also for their respective PC game genres. These would be my faves.
"TIE Fighter" was excellent because it was the only (real) time we could fight for the Empire.
"Jedi Knight" was OK, but again: post-ROTJ story, another-Dark-Jedi-from-nowhere. Level design sucked.
I've mentioned SW "Rebellion" - wasted opportunity.
"Force Commander" - another wasted opportunity, horrible engine - give me my $ back!
"X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter" - total flop, they've ruined game mechanics (I've posted about this in detal some time ago).
"X-Wing Alliance" - continues with altered game mechanics I never got used to, but has excellent SW "look&feel" - just watch the intro! Way to go!
"Jedi Outcast" - good one, esp. first levels with Imperial bases - loved the level design and return of iMuse system!
"Galactic Battlefronts" - antiquated engine - rip-off from M$ games "tweaked" to look SW-ish.
"KOTOR1&2" - as I said, great games, but average SW-games
"Battlefront"s are good only for multiplayer and I would change many elements...
Most other games I mentioned are medicore. This is a step back, as LEC games used to be great.




I've been a PC gamer for over 15 years. I've not only played the games, but followed technology milestones, studied graphics, programming, read articles about developers, publishers, game expos, latest trends etc. With all this experience and very imaginative mind I've designed my own new SW game which IMHO should be successfull. It's something LEC never gave you, and what every SW-gamer would want. Other similar games like this had strong fanbase and were generally successfull. It would be something fresh though. But so what? The door is closed. LEC does not want even to hear about anybody's ideas.
http://www.lucasarts.com/company/job/
NOTE:LucasArts does not accept unsolicited artwork, music, proposals, outlines, manuscripts or other creative material; if we receive such material, we will return it unread to the person who submitted it.

I'll bet they don't want a swarm of geeks knocking at their doors with their silly concepts. However eventually they may fail, because they don't realize, that one of those geeks (and by this I don't mean necessarily: me) may have the idea just what other geeks want and would be willing to pay for it...


I wish I knew someone who knows the right people in the business (or even LEC bosses) and could bring up my offer to LEC...
Post
#275064
Topic
30 years amongst the stars: Let this be the Year!
Time
Originally posted by: Wesyeed

We here at the originaltrilogy are now the rebel alliance...

Actually this was only the short form, with the Empire loving to call them simply by demeaning term "the Rebels" [...scum! ]

Let me proclaim then that what we form here at the originaltrilogy is The Alliance to Restore the Old Trilogy. (That name has far more dignity).

Just tell me why do I see The Flannel Wearing Man saying to us with his sly smile: "Oh, no... You'll find that it is you who're mistaken... about a great many things..."
Post
#274874
Topic
quit wasting your time on Star Wars!
Time
Every self-respecting SW fan watches the Trilogy from time to time... over and over again. It's >6hrs of your life each time!

Why not cut it down to... under a minute?


STAR WARS in 5 seconds

The EMPIRE STRIKES BACK in 5 seconds

RETURN Of The JEDI in 5 seconds



------------------------------------------

Now, this is just another silly thing we like to watch and laugh at, but let me point out that this wasn't made "at random".

ANH has the most suspense and famous DS trench run.
ESB has Luke/Vader relationship and is clearly the best (i.e. funniest) of those 3 clips (you will see why )
RotJ is the most "intense" (battles, explosions etc.)