OutboundFlight

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

I feel like Cosmonaut Variety Hour’s perspective is a pretty fair assessment. He likes all the Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff, but he feels the Finn/Poe/Rose stuff is pretty weak in comparison.

RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.

It’d come at the expense of one or both of their arcs, though.

Not necessarily. Poe was already setup to learn the dangers of recklessness with the opening fight. He is demoted by Leia but then resorts to a new plan as is the original. I think it’s pretty simple to swap out learning to follow orders with Holdo with learning about the horrors of war with Finn on Canto Bight. That would be the first step to his arc. The second step would be when his “plan” falls apart right in his face, which is when he realizes Holdo is right.

Finn’s arc to fight for a cause is also adaptable. He could give the same speech as Rose, only instead of those reasons why he chose to right for the Resistance, make them why he hates war. Establish he’s only in this for Rey and Poe’s sake. Meeting DJ is when he realizes the errors in his ways.

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

ATMachine said:

I think a huge problem is that the characters do stupid things that realistically they wouldn’t do. Particularly in the Canto Bight arc.

“Yup, them’s the shuttle parkers.” Seriously? The heroes are on a top-secret covert mission where remaining under cover is absolutely critical, and the first thing they do is ignore the instructions of the casino valet and rush off, leaving a cloud of suspicion? Are these our heroes or incompetent bunglers?

“Did you find the codebreaker?” “We found a codebreaker!” Because they’re all interchangeable, and it doesn’t matter if the heroes specifically failed to get the one guy Maz Kanata told them to, right? It’s not like the survival of the Resistance depends on it or anything.

Obviously this ties into the humor issue. I’d say a major flaw in the film is how with Poe, Finn & Rose it frequently goes for humor over characterization, to the point of undermining the entire idea that these characters are military operatives on what they think is a vitally important secret mission.

It’s supposed to represent our characters thinking anything can go and we’ll save the day at the end with our last ditch plan. But I don’t get why’d they think that, it’s not as if the war just started and they’ve never lost or felt grief (Finn especially was never anti-war just the day before).

This leads to my big problem: putting theme above story.

I think RJ is interested in talking to us audience and using the characters from TFA for it. Rather than exploring their arcs. Rey goes from accepting her family isn’t coming back from wanting to no who her parents are, simply because the fans were all wanting to know. Finn goes from running away and only fighting to protect Rey to being overly pro-Resistance to the point someone teaches him not to die for the cause… because the fans would probably be pro-fighting, and RJ wants to challenge our expectations.

I will give credit to where it’s due: the Luke stuff is great. I just can’t stand how they handled the new cast.

Vladius said:

I had a weird idea and I’m not sure there’s enough footage to pull it off. Since Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is easily the most interesting character of the sequels, and his parts are generally the highest quality, would it be possible to make one movie just from his perspective? I’m imagining it somewhat like A Christmas Carol, with Ben as Scrooge and Han, Luke, and Leia (and Chewie to some extent) following like ghosts and “haunting” him for his evil deeds. Some of this is already explicit in TROS and when Luke says “I’ll always be with you just like your father” in TLJ.
Since the focus would be on Ben, Rey would be the pseudo-antagonist, a star pupil trained by the OT cast to replace him, which builds his resentment until he grows to have some affection for her and Palpatine gets involved.
Obviously deleted scenes like the Oracle would help flesh this out a lot more.

This could really work well. Kylo struggles a lot in the trilogy so it could easily be re-edited from his perspective.

FreezingTNT2 said:

I have an idea for a future sequel trilogy edit: we don’t see Luke die at all in The Last Jedi, and we don’t really know whether he is alive or not until Rey has a pep talk with his Force ghost on Ahch-To in The Rise of Skywalker.

What would this accomplish other than…
1). Diminish the impact of TLJ’s conclusion
2). Confuse the audience in TROS expecting Luke to still be alive

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Well, it is now.

I found the kiss at the end to be a satisfying end for them. Had Ben been friend-zoned, it would have felt very off-putting. So I’d say their relationship worked well, even if they lazily killed Ben afterward (seems to have been a last-minute change).

True. Thanks for marking this as a spoiler thread. I didn’t know how to do that on here.

I assume it was the mods?

Well, it is now.

I found the kiss at the end to be a satisfying end for them. Had Ben been friend-zoned, it would have felt very off-putting. So I’d say their relationship worked well, even if they lazily killed Ben afterward (seems to have been a last-minute change).

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

RogueLeader said:

Maybe if they didn’t waste so much time reintroducing Palpatine they wouldn’t have needed two parts!

??? They don’t spend any time introducing him. They instantly bring him into the plot, don’t give any time for the characters to reflect on his arrival, and expect you to watch a fortnite clip to understand.

I don’t think RL literally means that they wasted time on his reintroduction. Just that the fact that he was reintroduced meant they wasted a lot of time on him. I mean, honestly the whole plot is based on the fact that he is back. Instead of just following up and concluding what they set up in the last film(s), they decided to graft on a whole additional story.

And, personally, I think the complaints of the Fortnite clip are silly. I listened to it, it doesn’t tell you anything. More likely than not it was either a deleted moment that got cut out because is was unnecessary, or it was created separate from the film as purely a piece of marketing.

That’s a fair complaint. I don’t want to go around in circles, but I still feel as if bringing back Palpatine or some new big bad was their only option, at least for an action blockbuster. A Kylo vs Rey learning the only way to stop the fight was through unity is interesting, but not something you can do without being “boring” to the general audience. I suppose that’s why I’ve never considered it an option. So the thing I was most fearful of was a classic Kylo bad story where there’s no tension because Kylo has already lost.

Snoke’s death was cool and shocking in TLJ, but I think we can all agree it had some serious consequences on the ST as a whole.

Anchorhead said:

ATMachine said:

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019/12/29/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-filmmakers-discussed-splitting-two-parts-chris-terrio/

Because apparently Lucasfilm & Disney considered making this film even MORE of a cash-grab cliché by doing the Harry Potter two-part finale thing.

“I wish that we could have that, but George always said it was nine movies.”

Except for when he said it was going to be twelve…or six…or three. They should have done their homework.

I think Ep 10 could have worked, but only if it was the end to the Skywalker Saga. I still don’t buy we’re done with episodes, and wouldn’t be shocked if 30 years down the line we see Episodes 10, 11, and 12.

RogueLeader said:

Maybe if they didn’t waste so much time reintroducing Palpatine they wouldn’t have needed two parts!

??? They don’t spend any time introducing him. They instantly bring him into the plot, don’t give any time for the characters to reflect on his arrival, and expect you to watch a fortnite clip to understand.

ATMachine said:

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019/12/29/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-filmmakers-discussed-splitting-two-parts-chris-terrio/

Because apparently Lucasfilm & Disney considered making this film even MORE of a cash-grab cliché by doing the Harry Potter two-part finale thing.

I actually wished they had went this route. Especially considering the finished product’s rushed pacing.

I think they could have made the Star Destroyer break in the finale of Ep 9 and used Rey’s parentage as the big twist to bring us in for 10.

I like this plan very much, RogueLeader! I think TFA would be near perfect if we didn’t change the MacGuffin so abruptly from the interesting Map to Skywalker to the retread, stop the planet killer!

Regarding the new look for the First Order’s base, what about the very first shot of TFA, where they fly over what I assume is an ice moon of Jakku?

I like to think the First Order Stormtroopers were the ones who leaked the story.

Consider the following. The Supreme Leader is dead and Kylo is the new boss. All eyes are on him in the first battle - it will determine how the troopers view him behind his back.

And what does Ren do? He makes an absolute fool of himself in front of his entire army. Maybe he can fight, but now everyone knows he’s a terrible tactician, not noticing the obvious signs that Luke wasn’t really there.

Perhaps a couple companies were inspired and deserted shortly after, like shown in TROS, and explained the story to the galaxy at large.

Star Wars has never been about the plot. If so, ROTS would be the best movie because it’s the most complex. And A New Hope is just some weird and boring side adventure.

No one liking TROS has said they like it because of it’s plot. It’s how they make that outline into a fun movie that makes us like it. If you give it a chance and don’t enjoy it, that’s fair, but you can’t think of Star Wars as just a Wookiepedia article.

Snooker, I have a similar opinion, but with the opposite movies. I’ve tried to rewatch TLJ many times, and each time it’s made me bored by the characters. It was only until seeing this movie when I realized I liked Rey, Finn, and Poe on the same level as the OT in TFA and TROS, just TLJ was the difference.

I think part of it is the themes. TLJ tries to create complex themes and personally I think it is at the expense of the characters and their arcs TFA was pointing them in. The only part I liked was Luke’s story, but even then I think it came at the expense of making Rey bland.

Now for TROS, yes, the plot is stupid, but I think the character drama is on point. Whereas the Last Jedi felt so run by it’s themes.

luckydube56 said:

Star Wars fans are a strange lot. Those who strongly feel it will suck will pay to see it and those who already saw it and thought it sucked paid to see it again.

It’s like a mad search for meaning or a rekindling of a love that is long gone.

The OT were great. I fear it cannot be expanded on.

I’ve come to operate on the following assumption.

Some stuff’s good, some stuff’s bad. If it’s good, yay, I’ve found another piece of the awesome Star Wars universe to enjoy. If it’s bad, I can forget it ever existed. To that extent, Disney should make as many SW films as possible. Even if 99 suck, 1’s bound to be enjoyed.

If you haven’t been pleased by any of the Disney movies, that’s a shame, but don’t think they were a mistake from the first place. Because someday something good like the originals will arrive.

NeverarGreat said:

Thinking about the opening to TLJ, perhaps we could go crazy and break convention:

After the ‘a long time ago’, open on the blackness of space. A light appears in the stars, glowing red and getting larger. A beam of energy streaks across the frame, and descends on the world of Hosnian Prime. Sella and others look up in horror as the beam incinerates the planet. Cut to black.

STAR WARS

Catastrophe! On the eve of a declaration of war, the New Republic has been devastated by a mysterious weapon from beyond the stars.

Determined to complete their victory, the First Order has tracked the shattered remnants of the Republic fleet to the planet D’Qar, determined to capture General Leia Organa and the location of the last Jedi.

With not a moment to spare, Leia orders an immediate evacuation, desperate to preserve the last spark of hope for a return of galactic peace…

I really like this!

I would go a step further and say put that before the Force Awakens. The ST doesn’t have a clear understanding of how the galaxy works. There’s a Republic, but we never visit it. There’s a Resistance that is technically not a rebellion but in practice really is. There’s a First Order that is technically not an empire but in practice really is.

If TFA had a cold open destruction of the Republic, and everything the OT stood for, I think we’d instantly understand…

1. Why the ST has reset to the OT, which builds on the themes from TLJ, without feeling contrived.
2. Why the First Order is a threat and Luke is necessary NOW.
3. That everything was fine before the dark side got involved.

RogueLeader said:

While I get it, I do feel like it was the easy and safe choice. Just Vader 2.0. Imagine if Ben has to actually right his wrongs rather than pay for his crimes with death. I mean, Darth Revan basically committed the same type of crimes but ended up being considered a hero. I like the idea that rehabilitation can be greater than punishment.

Oh I agree. It was definitely a pull at our emotions, I’d like to see a fanedit where Ben survives. I’m just saying in-lore, saving Rey wasn’t a selfish act.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

The problem I see with that is Rey has already rejected Kylo’s call to the dark side under the impression she comes from nothing. The only way to make her question the dark side is to change the stakes.

Your suggestion of seeing her struggle to rebuild the Jedi Order is an interesting one. Seeing her have to train a new generation, only for them to once again turn evil and she has to learn from Luke’s mistakes to prevent another Kylo Ren. I’d like that, but to set it all up in one movie seems too choppy. It’s a bigger problem with the ST in general. They kept setting themselves up to redo the OT.

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

If Anakin can survive having his remaining three appendages cut off and burned up beside a river of lava, I don’t see why Palpatine, the galaxy’s most powerful Force user, couldn’t have survived falling down a shaft. It’s not like Jedi don’t have levitation abilities. He could have just hovered onto a catwalk, skeedaddled to a shuttle have been long gone by the time the station blew up.

Jedi and Sith didn’t have levitation abilities, until TROS. That is the problem with the ST, they just invented new Force powers as they go. Even death and injury are pretty much irrelevant now. It’s become a story with zero stakes. Had JJ directed ROTS, Anakin would likely just have grown those limbs back.

Are you talking about self-levitation? Because levitation has been a thing since Empire and even then Luke’s jump out of the Carbonite chamber could be construed as self-levitation. I would also think that if a Jedi can lift something with their mind, they would also be able to push against something to speed up or slow down their own momentum.

I didn’t mind the Force healing since Rey can only do it in this movie at the height of her power, and it also foreshadows Kylo’s bringing her back to life as a surprisingly apt thematic conclusion to the Anakin ‘save people from dying’ theme all the way back in Episode 2.

Yes, I’m talking about self-levetation. I would also say presenting Rey being brought back to life as a good thing, conflicts very obviously with the main theme of Lucas’ PT, where conquering death was clearly presented as unnatural, and an extreme exponent of the dark side.

Using the Force to cheat your own death is clearly a Sith thing, since the Sith think inwardly, only about themselves. Anakin wants to save those he loves, but clearly not at the cost of his own life. He only wants to save them because of his own fear of loss. However Kylo uses this ability for someone else at the cost of his own life, a fairly selfless act and in keeping with the Jedi way. Besides, there are countless fairy tales where the hero is brought back to life through magical means and it is rarely seen as anything other than good and miraculous.

To me that displays a lack of understanding of the Jedi, and Sith philosophy. Only the Sith are obsessed with preventing death, since it is the end of the line for them. For a Jedi there’s nothing bad about dying, and becoming one with the Force, hence Jedi don’t need to be saved from effectively becoming immortal as a Force ghost. Rey thus didn’t need to be saved, as she had already become one with the Force.

Ben didn’t think he would be worthy of continuing the Jedi legacy. Consider the following. He is currently the Emperor of the galaxy. He is responsible for killing billions. Everyone hates him.

How is he supposed to restart the Jedi Order? More likely the Resistance will instantly execute him. Ben sacrificing himself for Rey is the ultimate sacrifice, and demonstrates Ben is NOT obsessed with preventing death… he will embrace it for the good of the galaxy.

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

Exactly. Although the ST is a muddled mess of two director’s visions, the one unifying theme I’ve noticed is Rey forming a family not with her past but with her future.

This theme is not present in the OT. There Luke was trying to redeem Vader while not falling to the dark side himself. The question of whether Luke would fall to the dark side was a legitimate one, but I think the bigger question was whether Vader could be redeemed.

Furthermore, what does Luke say when he refuses Palpatine? “I’m a Jedi, like my father before me.”

Rey doesn’t have that luxury. Her past is firmly rooted with darkness and the Sith. If she were to follow the OT’s footsteps, she might be able to switch sides for a while but will ultimately return to her family… in this case, evil. By rejecting Palpatine, Rey is finally letting go of her haunted past, and accepting her family with the Resistance: Finn, Poe, and all the other friends she’s made this trilogy.

It’s literally the name of the movie.

Concerning “Rey Palpatine is bad”…

I have to disagree. While the concept of “Rey Nobody” is nice, it’s poor in practice. What else could be the conflict of the story?

TROS leaves us with two opportunities to serve as its emotional core - either will Ben be redeemed? or will Rey be turned?. The problem is the Ben question is so lazy when you consider we already answered it in ROTJ.

ROTJ was asking if Vader’s natural family will triumph over evil. TROS raises the stakes by putting Rey’s natural family on evil, and forcing her to choose a new family at the end of the movie. It’s not perfect, but with TLJ barely bothering to setup Rey it’s the best they could do.

The alternative is Rey is nobody, and after TLJ has already come to terms and is on Team Jedi. Which means no personal growth besides seeking the redemption of Kylo (which is copying Luke’s arc).

Morgan the Boost said:

yotsuya said:

Audience reactions have appeared on Rotten Tomatoes. Instead of the 58% the 309 critics have given it, 9628 audience reactions rate it at 86%. So right now it is critically panned but loved by the audience.

No. It’s a film being rated by people who do that kind of thing. And those ratings have been manipulated six ways from Sunday Up and Down and Sideways for all sorts of movies by angry reddit threads for years now.

RT has become a complete joke. A shame it’s still used, people should know better. Reading through the audience scores half have 1/5 stars, and the other half have 5/5 stars. Just a bunch of angry / joyful fans venting their opinion to the extreme.

Anyone else get some serious Star Trek TOS vibes with Rey and the serpent? We’re stuck in a cave and we gotta heal the misunderstood monster!

theprequelsrule said:

Hmm…the last 6 posts or so seem to suggest that Star Wars has become the brainless entertainment it’s critics always claimed it was.

And we fans are happy to settle for this now. Can’t wait for Michael Bay to direct the Sequel-Sequel Trilogy!

Here’s the thing: I would argue TROS isn’t mindless. That’s what makes it still “good” to me even if it’s throwing everything at the wall.

Rey in TFA was holding back. Finally she accepts her destiny and holds the lightsaber… and in TLJ we have nearly no conflict for her, with most the focus on Luke. In TROS, Rey is most certainly not a ”Mary Sue” or any other hateful term. Making her a Palpatine is so much better than no one because it gives her character something to struggle with. If she was just no one what would she do? Prove someone who comes from nothing can win? We’re all expecting that.

Poe was a fun “hero” character in TFA, where they didn’t have time to explore his character. In TLJ he becomes a fill-in for the audience to teach us “no no no daring plots are bad… forget about Starkiller Base which was just yesterday”. In TROS, we learn so much more about Poe. His relationships with the other characters are stand out, and we also learn an interesting nuanced backstory.

Finn was lots of fun in TFA but like Poe becomes a stand-in for “no no no heroism is bad forget about Holdo’s heroism an hour before”. In TROS we get to see Finn interact with other deserters. I would have preferred more time be spent here, but considering how much they had to fit in it’s good they at least introduced it.

Ben could never be the villain of the ST. I agree with TLJ it’s a really interesting idea to see Kylo do what Vader could not, but TFA had already established him as a joke and Crait isn’t flattering to him either. So there had to be some new big bad. What really impressed me with TROS was Ben’s early redemption. No need to waste the central drama around redoing ROTJ, they made it about if Rey could be turned, and with Ben already set to possibly fight an evil Rey I was emotionally invested in the conclusion.

So no, I don’t think Michael Bay directing TROS would have had the same result.

I’m a fan of Rey Palpatine. The symmetry is really cool - the grandson of Vader and granddaughter of Palpatine rising up against injustice.

One thing I’d suggest is improving those planet killers. No one seems to be talking about those. So it’s very easy to cut them out and make this one big large evil fleet. BUT… this is the last movie…

What if MORE planets get blown up in the final battle? Not just some new planet we first saw in this movie. I’m talking blow up Naboo. Kamino. Bespin. Jakku. Nothing too sad (aka populated with cute puppets) but something to dramatically increase the stakes.

I think this could make the movie even more bonkers. Every now and then a famous Star Wars planet getting blown to bits.

Agreed. I was actually expecting Rey to join evil and have an inverted sides duel with Ben when watching. Tbh I prefer the two staying true to light and taking the Senate on together. But my legit doubt in her goes to show how interesting Rey became in just one movie.