NeverarGreat

Tyrphanax said:

Nah, you made a different point in terms of the sequels that I hadn't thought of, but do agree with. The Victory Celebration ties everything up almost too well since, like I said, SE Jedi was supposed to be the end of the saga and doesn't leave much room for much of a story afterwards since everything is said and done.

Although with the OT actors being as old as they are now, the likelihood that the ST will be pushed back to a point where Disney wouldn't tell the stories of the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Empire is pretty high. Problem is, dealing with a enemy other than the Empire will detach the ST from the rest of the saga (even the PT dealt with the Empire in a way)... it'll be interesting to see what they do since the end of SE Jedi really seems like everything is all wrapped up nice and neat.

All the more reason to remake the prequels with a different, more local, conflict. I'd say a war between two planets, with Anakin as the hero. An interplanetary war is still a pretty big deal, from a certain point of view.

Then we could have an epic intergalactic war for the sequel trilogy, and keep things fresh. It seems pointless to always keep the story at the same scale.

For the ending of the original trilogy, I think the original music works well. As the end of a six film saga, however, I agree that victory celebration is more fitting, as well as the images of the celebrating galaxy, however nonsensical they actually are.

There's yet another angle to look at this from, however. If episodes 7, 8, and 9 attempt to conclude the entire saga, I believe that the original Yub Nub song could work remarkably well, as it gives the message that the victory of the Rebels was only a local victory, and as such warranted only a local celebration. The audience would look to the final trilogy to complete the story, whatever it turns out to be, and the end of episode 9 would conclude on a victory celebration on a galactic scale, and one that was truly warranted.

Edit: Tyrphanax, you beat me to it.

Star Wars Beyond the Galaxy

Star Wars Across the Universe

Star Wars Into Eternity

Bingowings said:

Is the alien in the cat?

Alright, I can take a hint. If you want, I will start a thread in the script rewriting area, and stop hijacking this thread. Y'all can ignore me over there!

;)

lol @ you guys...

It's a pre-hyperspace ship. Meaning from before there was hyperdrive. People were probably put into hibernation because the trip took so long, but Anakin was floating in space for far longer than he should have, so he has a particularly bad case of hibernation sickness. He doesn't have a memory of any time before that, as he was put there as a small child, and has been raised by the Lars family ever since. It's a mysterious beginning to his life, and one that can be explored throughout the prequels.

That's only one idea, of course. I chose the blindness angle because it seemed to fit well with the radio drama medium, and would give the audience and Anakin a point of similarity.

Besides, ANH raised many more questions than it answered, and the OT still holds up perfectly well with the audience imagining what came before.

TK-949 said:

There are two great PT Audio Plays available. "Labyrinth of Evil" and "Dark Lord". They contain all the original voices from the movies, as well as music and soundeffects. The only problem for 90% of the guys (and girls) here: it's in German. ;-)

The guy who did these is currently working on the "Thrawn-Trilogy". Three of four parts from "Heir To The Empire" are already available.

So wait, did they get Hayden et al. to do the voices in German?

Actually, I found some more info. Okay, that makes sense. Ignore the previous.

What I meant was; did anyone in the fan community do a radio drama based on a rewrite of the prequels? Kind of specific, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in the works somewhere.

My idea was to have a very young Anakin Skywalker be frozen in a hibernation pod on a pre-hyperspace ship for many decades, and to be revived by the Lars family and raised by them after the ship crashes on a distant world. His advanced form of hibernation sickness renders him blind, and he struggles to survive in the harsh Outer Rim Territories. Our story picks up when their planet is attacked by another planet in the same solar system, and a teenage Anakin must defy all odds to become a pilot despite his blindness, which lasts through the prequels.

Just finished listening to it. Very good.

Boba Fett was pretty bad, but Han nailed it. I just wish that there weren't so many nods to his subsequent lines from Empire.

This, and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio dramas have gotten me thinking; has anyone done a radio drama of a prequel rewrite? I've got what I think is a rather unique idea for one.

Anyway, really good for a live read!

greenpenguino said:

Easterhay said:

"Loath"? And this fella's taken it upon himself to rewrite the prequels?

Hey! He's not the only one. Quite a lot of people have done it too. I've done it myself, and I loath them too. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

Loath: Unwilling to do something contrary to one's ways of thinking; reluctant.

Loathe: To dislike greatly and often with disgust and intolerance.

"I was loath (reluctant) to rewrite the prequels."

"I loathe (dislike) the idea of rewriting the prequels."

BmB said:

 

NeverarGreat said:There really is something magical about the original end credits of Star Wars, isn't there? It just flows like pure inspiration, and the other end credits compositions for all the other movies just highlight the fact that the first one was perfect. The others almost seem forced (no pun intended) so that they can end on the same musical motif. It's actually jarring to have the Star Wars end credits at the end of ESB. That movie has a much different end, and should probably have had an entirely different composition to match.

What do you mean? ESB ends on a version of the rebel theme, SW ends on a version of the throne room motif itself.

I probably like the ESB credits the best. It's a more romantic, less heroic and more mellow theme that rolls off the optimistic drama of that film perfectly. Plus, it's the one you hear in all the trailers and whatnot.

I actually really enjoy the prequel credits as composed, the ones on the albums. The very mellow horn restating anakins theme in AOTC, ROTS coming full circle with a full length restatement of the throne room theme. And of course anakin's theme from TPM itself, the only one that played in theaters as composed. :/

 

It's right when the credits of ESB appear. The slow buildup gives way to the same motif from the first film, which then transitions back into a version of Yoda's theme. My point was that both compositions are identical in the first few seconds of the credits, and it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the ESB.

However, I agree that AOTC probably had the best end credits after Star Wars, simply for the Across the Stars theme.

captainsolo said:

But if I had to pinpoint the exact moment where I became a purist, it's not the discovery of so many losing all their hard 1977 work to a CG effect, it's not blinking Ewoks, bad EU, blowing more $ on merchandise or any other of such good reasons....it was rediscovering the spirit of the original film itself, one of discovering one's desired adventure along with a sense of purpose. The moment in the end credits where the score fades to the strings just before the final musical climax brought tears of long repressed joy to my eyes. I couldn't help it. Still can't.

When and Why: The mono mix and Puggo Grande.

There really is something magical about the original end credits of Star Wars, isn't there? It just flows like pure inspiration, and the other end credits compositions for all the other movies just highlight the fact that the first one was perfect. The others almost seem forced (no pun intended) so that they can end on the same musical motif. It's actually jarring to have the Star Wars end credits at the end of ESB. That movie has a much different end, and should probably have had an entirely different composition to match.

R2-D2 saved the Queen's starship in Episode 1. Without Artoo, the ship would have been destroyed, and the Jedi killed, as well as the queen. Nute Gunray is successfully prosecuted for invading Naboo and killing the queen. Qui-Gon and Obi-wan would never have stopped on Tatooine to find Anakin, and so Anakin would never have become a Jedi, nor would he have become a Sith. A new leader of Naboo would have been elected, and as Jar-Jar had been killed as well, he wouldn't have called for emergency powers for the Chancellor, even if the Trade Federation had remained intact after that fiasco. In short, if Artoo had never existed, the Empire would never have been formed.

"I don't know what all the trouble is about, but I'm sure it must be your fault."

Bingo's got it right.

The Evil Galactic Empire, with its fleet of Destroyers, is ruling the many Systems through fear of its ultimate weapon: Death.

Luke, meanwhile, is on a planet that isn't anywhere in particular, there being no "bright center" to the universe. He doesn't longingly look into the distance, for there is only the binary moonset, and that happens in complete darkness.

Hyperspace travel doesn't require precise calculations, for there are no stars to fly through or supernovas to bounce too close to.

Anakin Skywalker was the best Pilot in the galaxy. However, he doesn't look into the sky as a child, wondering if they all have a system of planets, but that's because the prequels didn't happen. Because they suck.

I became an OT "Purist" after seeing AOTC. I can't really remember when, but it was before I saw ROTS. I didn't have any fan theories about how Anakin became Darth Vader, but after seeing that movie, I realized that the story of AOTC couldn't possibly be it. The CGI probably didn't help, as it was less part of the definitive story of Star Wars, and more the ad hoc imaginings of George Lucas.

After ROTS came out, I felt that Star Wars was finally finished. Dead and buried. Then I saw the Plinket reviews, and considered that as a whole, the prequel trilogy was not worthy of being considered canon, especially as there were many continuity problems regardless of the style of the prequels. Consequently I have embarked on a quest to discover a good prequel story, and in the process I try to discover what precisely made the original trilogy, and indeed any good story, good.

I actually liked quite a lot about Episode 1. To my 13 year old mind, it had much that was cool about Star Wars at that time. It had lightsaber battles, some strange new worlds, a prophecy, and some intrigue.

Episode 2. Across the Stars. And...Hmm. I'll get back to you on that.

Episode 3. 3 scenes. First, the capital ship crashing down on Coruscant. That was what Star Wars should be. Adventure, excitement, destruction on a massive scale, everything. Second, Padme's Ruminations scene. Silence is golden. Third, the first minute of the Order 66 scene. During that sequence, up to and including the reaction of Yoda, you feel that this is what the prequels have built up to for three movies. After that, the sequence drags on, with George having fun with his computers.

But what if Vader hadn't been in the throne room?

It would have been a much less interesting scene, that's for sure.

In my mind, the Emperor was clearly stronger than Luke, and Luke would have died. This raises the question of why Yoda would send him off unprepared. He did warn Luke not to underestimate the Emperor, but Luke probably thought that he was in for an emotional battle with the Emperor, not a physical one. When he throws away his lightsaber, it may be as much for Anakin as it is for the Emperor. It's as if Luke is saying "See father, I don't fear this man, and neither should you."

Of course, this horribly backfires, but it also pushes Vader to make a choice.

So if Vader wasn't there, and Luke just happened to be before the Emperor, the Emperor probably wouldn't have even tried to turn him. Remember, he said: "Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force." The Emperor is relying on Vader, so without Vader, Luke would just be imprisoned or more likely killed outright.

1990osu said:

It makes you wonder if they are considering reshooting ROTJ's ending for the sequels, or perhaps beginning Episode 7 with a replay of the throne room scene going differently...

That's not true. That's IMPOSSIBLE!

I agree that the scene strains credulity however. The first time that I watched it, I was absolutely sure that Luke wouldn't be turned to the Dark Side. There was no question in my mind. Luke was a hero. He was us, the audience. And so the scene played out. The point of the scene, I think, was to show the audience that he who can make you angry can control you. The only question that Luke had was in what Vader was thinking when he let Luke escape Cloud City. When that scene is reenacted with Luke as the antagonist, he feels the same as Vader in that moment. In that moment, father and son are as one, both equally culpable in their use of the Dark Side. However, Luke is still himself. He used the Dark Side, and was not turned. So here was the answer to his question, about whether Anakin was in some way still alive. Indeed he was.

"Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He states that Anakin yet lives. Therefore he is saying that not only did the Emperor fail to convert him, he failed to even convert Anakin.

Of course, I disregard the prequels in this analysis.

Okay, I take it back.

I think he really is trolling now.

Sorry about the thread, Trooperman.

Getting the thread back on track a little, I couldn't disagree more with the review of ESB. That it is said to have "no character development", "no plot", and "no emotional or philosophical point to make" makes me think that the guy didn't even see the movie. To me, ESB is the soul of the Star Wars story:

"For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you!"

"I don't believe it!"

"That is why you fail."

This is a far more emotional and philosophical angle than the dry exposition by Obi-wan in the original movie, and I think that it really guaranteed the immortality of Star Wars. As to having no plot or character development - what about having Han and Leia fall in love, or having Luke confront the idea that his worst enemy may be his father? Makes me think that the reviewer was just trying to get a rise out of people.

I quite like hearing other viewpoints, however. Everyone needs to let Father Skywalker alone. It's viewpoints like his that give these forums some life, otherwise it would just be people agreeing with each other all day. You have to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Father Skywalker is a good friend.

Easterhay said:

Well some films are so bad they're good...I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, though :)

Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

"Crush them Torg!!!"

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

It looks like an Imperial Cruiser, our passengers must be hotter than we thought; try and hold them off, angle the deflector shield while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

What a mess. All of his lines in the Falcon seemed like he was just trying to say them as fast as possible, while the lines themselves seemed written for a slower delivery.

VII: THE LAST HOPE

VIII: THE EMPIRE ASCENDANT

IX: THE DESTINY OF THE JEDI

I watched the original VHS versions of Star Wars when I was about five I think. About all I remember from ANH was Ben's original hut exterior and the ending. This was on a rental tape, so it was probably really grainy. Today I absolutely love the flickering lightsabers. I think that ANH was the only Star Wars movie where I can imagine the Jedi being genuinely mysterious warrior-monks; anything ESB onward feels somewhat like a video game with respect to the Jedi quest.

When I first watched ESB, I was so scared when the ghost Vader's helmet exploded that I had to run from the room. For the next several viewings, I always left the room at that scene. Luke getting his hand cut off was no biggie in comparison. That movie was always the "most boring-est" until I rewatched it some years ago with remote in hand to fast forward through the boring bits, and realized that there was no boring scene in the movie.

ROTJ was probably my favorite of the Star Wars movies when I was little, simply because it had a cool space battle in it. I also remember the AT-AT in the woods on Endor, and I always wondered why that was there, acting arthritic and out of place. It was only a few months ago that I realized that it was carrying Luke to the base, and was in the process of docking. Anyway, like many people have said, the movie seems less interesting now. I feel like it's where the Star Wars universe started to fall apart from its own structural instabilities. And Ewoks.

fishmanlee said:

I would prefer, a reconstruction of the original cut, that John Williams scored to, with his full score restored (with revised cues and inserts made available via seamless branching.)

I always wondered why there was no full version of the score for episodes 2 and 3. Whatever one may say about the prequels, John Williams remains Da Man.

I heard somewhere that Williams wanted to do a different opening theme to the prequels. That would have been really cool. In any case, you would really need the original Williams score to do what this thread suggests.

thecolorsblend said:

A few things.

Much of what you describe are not goals of Anakin's, they were from a dream he had when he was a kid. And I don't mean that in the sense of highest aspirations he's placed on a pedestal and hopes to one day achieve. I mean they were literal dreams. He had too much jawa juice before bed one night and he dreamed he freed the slaves. The one real fantasy that he'd "always dreamed of" was becoming a Jedi which, as you say, he did accomplish.

But if we're talking about characters and goals... well, Luke never did make it to Toshi Station to pick up those power converters, he didn't take droids to Anchorhead for a memory wipe, he didn't have the droids in the field by mid-day, there wasn't hell to pay, Han never did get around to paying Jabba back (even though he had the money by the time credits rolled in ANH), etc etc etc.

I realize which forum I'm on and so this is probably barking up the wrong tree but let's be fair here...

Luke and Han's preliminary goals in ANH are there because they are torn between the world that they know and the world of adventure. The first step of Luke's journey is to reject the goals imposed by his uncle and achieve his destiny, whereas Han's journey is in doing something that isn't for money. He decides not to return to Jabba, and instead joins the Rebellion. When the goals imposed by Owen become irrelevant, Luke makes a firm decision to become a Jedi. When Han decides to return and help the rebellion, we don't hear a firm decision. Naturally he will have second thoughts in ESB.

I'm not trying to be hard on the prequels because I think that the Original Trilogy is perfect in every way. Han probably could have paid back Jabba and still helped the rebellion, just as Anakin could have probably freed his mother and still trained to be a Jedi.

Anakin became a Jedi Knight based on a lie. The council wouldn't have done it if they knew he was married. The marriage ceremony and clone army scenes at the end of episode 2 send a single message: failure. It isn't like the scene at the end of ESB where our heroes know that they've made mistakes, and must work to right them. It is that Anakin and the entire senate and Jedi order are already defeated, and even they know it. You might as well end the trilogy there, as it is obvious what will happen.

It's not the takes that were wrong (most were probably the best takes available). It's not the CG that was wrong (some shots were done well). It's not the line readings that were wrong (they mostly did a reasonable job with the material). It's not even the plot that was wrong (A political drama of galactic scale is inherently cool).

It's the philosophy that was wrong.

Truth is always found in Pure, Beautiful Simplicity. It doesn't matter if the surface of the movies looks good or not, it's the soul of the movies, the story, that matters. Luke had a goal (become a Jedi). He worked toward that goal (trained with Yoda). He found himself unable to continue (Vader was his father). He overcame this obstacle (redeemed Anakin Skywalker and became a Jedi).

In short, Luke had a worthy goal, and overcame his weaknesses to achieve it.

Anakin has several goals:

1. Explore all the stars in the universe.

2. Become a Jedi.

3. Return to Tatooine and free the slaves.

4. In particular, free his mother from slavery.

Right of the bat, his motives aren't very clear. He wants to leave, but he also wants to return, for example. Furthermore, he never achieves any of these goals except #2, and that happens somewhere off screen in between movies. Even then, he doesn't truly become a Jedi, as he is married to Padme in violation of the Jedi Code. By Episode 3, his original goals are irrelevant. It's difficult to care about a character who casts aside his own goals so lightly.

The original trilogy works because we can believe that Anakin Skywalker was once a good man. In the prequels, I can't imagine that Anakin was ever a good man.