NeverarGreat

But what if Vader hadn't been in the throne room?

It would have been a much less interesting scene, that's for sure.

In my mind, the Emperor was clearly stronger than Luke, and Luke would have died. This raises the question of why Yoda would send him off unprepared. He did warn Luke not to underestimate the Emperor, but Luke probably thought that he was in for an emotional battle with the Emperor, not a physical one. When he throws away his lightsaber, it may be as much for Anakin as it is for the Emperor. It's as if Luke is saying "See father, I don't fear this man, and neither should you."

Of course, this horribly backfires, but it also pushes Vader to make a choice.

So if Vader wasn't there, and Luke just happened to be before the Emperor, the Emperor probably wouldn't have even tried to turn him. Remember, he said: "Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force." The Emperor is relying on Vader, so without Vader, Luke would just be imprisoned or more likely killed outright.

1990osu said:

It makes you wonder if they are considering reshooting ROTJ's ending for the sequels, or perhaps beginning Episode 7 with a replay of the throne room scene going differently...

That's not true. That's IMPOSSIBLE!

I agree that the scene strains credulity however. The first time that I watched it, I was absolutely sure that Luke wouldn't be turned to the Dark Side. There was no question in my mind. Luke was a hero. He was us, the audience. And so the scene played out. The point of the scene, I think, was to show the audience that he who can make you angry can control you. The only question that Luke had was in what Vader was thinking when he let Luke escape Cloud City. When that scene is reenacted with Luke as the antagonist, he feels the same as Vader in that moment. In that moment, father and son are as one, both equally culpable in their use of the Dark Side. However, Luke is still himself. He used the Dark Side, and was not turned. So here was the answer to his question, about whether Anakin was in some way still alive. Indeed he was.

"Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

He states that Anakin yet lives. Therefore he is saying that not only did the Emperor fail to convert him, he failed to even convert Anakin.

Of course, I disregard the prequels in this analysis.

Okay, I take it back.

I think he really is trolling now.

Sorry about the thread, Trooperman.

Getting the thread back on track a little, I couldn't disagree more with the review of ESB. That it is said to have "no character development", "no plot", and "no emotional or philosophical point to make" makes me think that the guy didn't even see the movie. To me, ESB is the soul of the Star Wars story:

"For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you!"

"I don't believe it!"

"That is why you fail."

This is a far more emotional and philosophical angle than the dry exposition by Obi-wan in the original movie, and I think that it really guaranteed the immortality of Star Wars. As to having no plot or character development - what about having Han and Leia fall in love, or having Luke confront the idea that his worst enemy may be his father? Makes me think that the reviewer was just trying to get a rise out of people.

I quite like hearing other viewpoints, however. Everyone needs to let Father Skywalker alone. It's viewpoints like his that give these forums some life, otherwise it would just be people agreeing with each other all day. You have to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Father Skywalker is a good friend.

Easterhay said:

Well some films are so bad they're good...I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, though :)

Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

"Crush them Torg!!!"

Sorry bro. Most of his lines are delivered very well, but it distracts me every single time I hear him say things like "therearen'tanybasesaroundherewhere'ditcomefrom" because there's just no rhythm to it.

It looks like an Imperial Cruiser, our passengers must be hotter than we thought; try and hold them off, angle the deflector shield while I make the calculations for the jump to light speed.

What a mess. All of his lines in the Falcon seemed like he was just trying to say them as fast as possible, while the lines themselves seemed written for a slower delivery.

VII: THE LAST HOPE

VIII: THE EMPIRE ASCENDANT

IX: THE DESTINY OF THE JEDI

I watched the original VHS versions of Star Wars when I was about five I think. About all I remember from ANH was Ben's original hut exterior and the ending. This was on a rental tape, so it was probably really grainy. Today I absolutely love the flickering lightsabers. I think that ANH was the only Star Wars movie where I can imagine the Jedi being genuinely mysterious warrior-monks; anything ESB onward feels somewhat like a video game with respect to the Jedi quest.

When I first watched ESB, I was so scared when the ghost Vader's helmet exploded that I had to run from the room. For the next several viewings, I always left the room at that scene. Luke getting his hand cut off was no biggie in comparison. That movie was always the "most boring-est" until I rewatched it some years ago with remote in hand to fast forward through the boring bits, and realized that there was no boring scene in the movie.

ROTJ was probably my favorite of the Star Wars movies when I was little, simply because it had a cool space battle in it. I also remember the AT-AT in the woods on Endor, and I always wondered why that was there, acting arthritic and out of place. It was only a few months ago that I realized that it was carrying Luke to the base, and was in the process of docking. Anyway, like many people have said, the movie seems less interesting now. I feel like it's where the Star Wars universe started to fall apart from its own structural instabilities. And Ewoks.

fishmanlee said:

I would prefer, a reconstruction of the original cut, that John Williams scored to, with his full score restored (with revised cues and inserts made available via seamless branching.)

I always wondered why there was no full version of the score for episodes 2 and 3. Whatever one may say about the prequels, John Williams remains Da Man.

I heard somewhere that Williams wanted to do a different opening theme to the prequels. That would have been really cool. In any case, you would really need the original Williams score to do what this thread suggests.

thecolorsblend said:

A few things.

Much of what you describe are not goals of Anakin's, they were from a dream he had when he was a kid. And I don't mean that in the sense of highest aspirations he's placed on a pedestal and hopes to one day achieve. I mean they were literal dreams. He had too much jawa juice before bed one night and he dreamed he freed the slaves. The one real fantasy that he'd "always dreamed of" was becoming a Jedi which, as you say, he did accomplish.

But if we're talking about characters and goals... well, Luke never did make it to Toshi Station to pick up those power converters, he didn't take droids to Anchorhead for a memory wipe, he didn't have the droids in the field by mid-day, there wasn't hell to pay, Han never did get around to paying Jabba back (even though he had the money by the time credits rolled in ANH), etc etc etc.

I realize which forum I'm on and so this is probably barking up the wrong tree but let's be fair here...

Luke and Han's preliminary goals in ANH are there because they are torn between the world that they know and the world of adventure. The first step of Luke's journey is to reject the goals imposed by his uncle and achieve his destiny, whereas Han's journey is in doing something that isn't for money. He decides not to return to Jabba, and instead joins the Rebellion. When the goals imposed by Owen become irrelevant, Luke makes a firm decision to become a Jedi. When Han decides to return and help the rebellion, we don't hear a firm decision. Naturally he will have second thoughts in ESB.

I'm not trying to be hard on the prequels because I think that the Original Trilogy is perfect in every way. Han probably could have paid back Jabba and still helped the rebellion, just as Anakin could have probably freed his mother and still trained to be a Jedi.

Anakin became a Jedi Knight based on a lie. The council wouldn't have done it if they knew he was married. The marriage ceremony and clone army scenes at the end of episode 2 send a single message: failure. It isn't like the scene at the end of ESB where our heroes know that they've made mistakes, and must work to right them. It is that Anakin and the entire senate and Jedi order are already defeated, and even they know it. You might as well end the trilogy there, as it is obvious what will happen.

It's not the takes that were wrong (most were probably the best takes available). It's not the CG that was wrong (some shots were done well). It's not the line readings that were wrong (they mostly did a reasonable job with the material). It's not even the plot that was wrong (A political drama of galactic scale is inherently cool).

It's the philosophy that was wrong.

Truth is always found in Pure, Beautiful Simplicity. It doesn't matter if the surface of the movies looks good or not, it's the soul of the movies, the story, that matters. Luke had a goal (become a Jedi). He worked toward that goal (trained with Yoda). He found himself unable to continue (Vader was his father). He overcame this obstacle (redeemed Anakin Skywalker and became a Jedi).

In short, Luke had a worthy goal, and overcame his weaknesses to achieve it.

Anakin has several goals:

1. Explore all the stars in the universe.

2. Become a Jedi.

3. Return to Tatooine and free the slaves.

4. In particular, free his mother from slavery.

Right of the bat, his motives aren't very clear. He wants to leave, but he also wants to return, for example. Furthermore, he never achieves any of these goals except #2, and that happens somewhere off screen in between movies. Even then, he doesn't truly become a Jedi, as he is married to Padme in violation of the Jedi Code. By Episode 3, his original goals are irrelevant. It's difficult to care about a character who casts aside his own goals so lightly.

The original trilogy works because we can believe that Anakin Skywalker was once a good man. In the prequels, I can't imagine that Anakin was ever a good man.

If you mean treatments for Episodes 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, and 9, then yes, some of us are.

The Star Wars Prequels: Before the advent of Hyperdrive, the galaxy is ruled by an austere body known as the Old Republic. The Jedi are the eyes and ears of this government, and they are the guardians of peace and justice in this loose confederation of worlds. In one far flung star system, a tyrant is building an Empire. Using an army of conscripts, he has attacked a peaceful world in that solar system, and it is up to Anakin and his friends to save the day against the EMPIRE OF EVIL. Through many adventures, he and his friends, Owen and Beru, help to overthrow the tyrant, with the help of Commander Kenobi, a Jedi Knight. The tyrant's dark priest, one who foresees an Empire of infinitely greater power, is considered dead, destroyed in his own diabolical electric torture chamber. Anakin, his friends, and Obi-wan leave the star system for further adventures in the greater galaxy.

The Star Wars Original Trilogy: Forty years later, a series of clone wars has given rise to an Empire, as the priest has foreseen. It is a galactic Empire, run by a shadowy Emperor. In the end, it is revealed that this Emperor is actually the priest, not destroyed by the torture chamber as previously thought, but in control of this diabolical power. For you see, both the Emperor and Vader know that the power they wield is evil. This is why they call it the Dark Side. Their enemy is one of infinite power, and their only hope has been in fighting fire with fire, strengthening the weak Republic and doddering Jedi through technological advancement and the use of the Dark Side. It is their only hope against the intergalactic Empire that they have both foreseen. Luke, with his lack of vision, has failed to see this truth, but Vader eventually sides with his son, though it may mean the death of the galaxy.

The Star Wars Sequels: The galaxy, wracked by a galactic civil war, is war weary, and the New Republic is ill-equipped to defend itself against the Evil Empire, the universal power that the Emperor had foreseen. They use the Dark Side, though they call it the One True Force, and they bring to bear a terrifying array of Star Destroyers, ships that can singlehandedly destroy a star. The galactic Empire of forty years past, with its Death Stars, may have had a chance against this power. But not the New Republic. The power of the One True Force destroys more than just stars, as Vader had said. The new Jedi order is insignificant against this new use of the Force, and Luke, as the son of Vader and the heir to the Empire by right of conquest, unites the Imperial remnant and the New Republic into the Grand Alliance, where they launch a joint attack on the invaders. They are destroyed, however, and it is up to a new band of heroes to save the galaxy from ultimate destruction.

TheBoost said:

This damn thing is back alive.

I'm going to be laid up for a while, so I decided to give this a go solo. I'm pretty pleased with the writing I did and would like to see it realized. 

So I'm producing the entire thing on my own, including playing all of the parts. Once I've got a well produced, music, SoundFX and everything "All Boost" cast production of the first three episode arc, I'll get others who can do things like act.

I'd like to use this thread as a sounding board, and ask for the occasional suggestion as I put this thing together.

For example, my long suffering hero needs a catch phrase, something that he says when things go wrong, especially when he already knew it was going to.

Here are various ones I've tried

• "Why me?"
• "Oh f**k me in the ear!"
• "This is going poorly" (comic understatement?)
• "I had a bad feeling about this."
• "I didn't have to do this. I coulda been a (insert job here)"

 

I'm also looking for a version of the main Star Wars theme (crawl music) that's perfectly good, but slightly different, just enough to make it clear I'm not using the regular main theme... kind of an audio cue that this story might be a bit unusual for Star Wars.

I know that the guys at How It Should Have Ended did a small alternate theme for Star Wars, though I don't know if you could call it good...

• "Now my failure is complete."
• "And he was just two days from retirement!"
• "It's my father's midichlorians."
• "Were in deep Sith."
• "I love it when a plan falls apart."
• "I'm just keeping the Jawas in business."
• "For the record, I did say so before."
• "Well that's pitiful. Pitiful! That's exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to be." (Silent Running line)
• "You know, I could have had a good destiny."

• "Didn't need the Force to see that coming."

ray_afraid said:

I'm afraid it's gonna be all Tron Legacy. Actually, I'll be very surprised if it's not. Lucasfilm owns the rights to the characters likenesses and now Disney owns Lucasfilm... just seems inevitable that they will go that route..

Aaugghhh!!!!! Don't even think that! My mind is now poisoned with the image of a CG Han and Leia and a litter of CG Jedi babies with Yoda-sized baby lightsabers. Aaaaughwhathaveyoudone?!!!?

I can see an argument for making the prequels animated. Particularly in an "old fashioned" 2D hand-drawn animation style, it would differentiate them from the OT and could be really cool.

For the sequels, it seems like a regression. I'd argue that if ever there was a time to do a mix of CG and real environments, and do it well, it would be now. Though I would be 1000% in favor of a complete return to the film-making technology of the OT, as that would be such a nostalgic trip.

Well, it would be a dangerous way to project a movie, as the lasers are powerful enough to ionize the air. It would also smell like ozone, from what I've read. But if it was in a transparent container like in the first video, it could work.

I remember reading that Marcia Lucas felt strongly that the audience should cheer when Han came to the rescue at the end, and that it was her insight in resolving that character arc that led to that moment being so emotional.

Is there any indication about when the sequels will take place?

I just don't understand how Obi-wan and Anakin aged 40 years in 20 from the prequels to the OT. Now that the actors have aged 30 years means that the story should reflect this change.

I hope that the child of Han and Leia isn't a teenager, is all I'm saying.

But this assumes that the original actors reprise their roles. Now, I would like to see an older Luke like everyone else, but everyone else said that they would like to see a young Anakin Skywalker 20 years ago. I think that a person's imagination does a much better job of aging Luke into a Jedi Master than the slow march of time.

On that note, why does everyone want to see the old characters again, yet also want new characters? For a character to work, they must contribute to the story. The Luke of the OT should not be the Luke of the sequels. The prequels showed us that. One of the reasons that the characters of the prequels failed was because they had to be a certain way in order to match the OT, instead of doing what they would more realistically do in a situation. Jedi Master Luke is not the same character as Jedi Knight Luke. To reprise the role is to concede that the character isn't strong enough to survive without the actor, in my opinion.

Darth Vader is such an enduring symbol of evil because his character is the result of the performances of many actors, including David Prowse, Bob Anderson, Sebastian Shaw, and James Earl Jones, and that's just in the OT. No one actor was Vader. He was a symbol. So was Yoda. Even Obi-wan was iconic, though he didn't need multiple actors to portray his character.

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that if the character is worth bringing back, it's worth looking beyond the actor for the deeper meaning of the character.

If they were to end the entire Star Wars saga on 9, then I agree, it should be the biggest movie ever. Period. It should not be possible to top it. However, I see it becoming like the 3rd Pirates movie. A lot of incoherent action, little actual drama.

PS: Execute post 666.

I agree with Bingo here. The prequels should have told a smaller story than the OT, not a larger one. It's pretty easy to imagine your favorite things in the OT, just bigger, faster, and more intense, and put them into the prequels. But it will always feel more like a sequel than something that came before.

Apologies if this has appeared elsewhere, but I just saw this technology:

http://youtu.be/EndNwMBEiVU

http://youtu.be/KfVS-npfVuY

So what do you think? Granted, it's plasma, but it's caused by lasers, and could easily be modified to make a lightsaber in my layman's mind.

Heilemann said:

NeverarGreat said:

Well, this is a forum named Original Trilogy, so it would attract anyone who prefers the Original Unaltered Star Wars Trilogy, and as the creator of Star Wars is in conflict with this segment of fans, it is only natural for animosity to be the result.

That's true of course, but there are plenty of constructive ways to come together around the OT (see despecialized edition). And this whole Lucas-bashing is unbelievably old and dull. It's not a crime committed by everyone here, but it is pervasive nonetheless, and there seems to be moderation of the tone here. 

Precisely. I'm not against George Lucas, or even the existence of the prequels. I think that all interpretations of Star Wars deserve to be preserved, and that is why I think that people are against the man. But fan preservations and restorations will be done, some better than even Lucasfilm could do, and so there is no need for the hate.

We here are all united in a way, for we all love Star Wars. (If not, then why are you on a Star Wars fansite?) I've often wondered why I (and millions of others) have such a fascination with Star Wars, and I think the reason is that it is so incredibly interpretive. In the OT, Lucas was adept at dropping hints of events and technologies throughout the story, always allowing the imagination of the audience to fill in the backstory and the events beyond the screen. If everyone here shared their interpretation of the original trilogy, I think that there would be as many unique answers as there were contributors.

Well, this is a forum named Original Trilogy, so it would attract anyone who prefers the Original Unaltered Star Wars Trilogy, and as the creator of Star Wars is in conflict with this segment of fans, it is only natural for animosity to be the result.

This is a shame, as the creation of the EU, the Prequels, and Fan Edits of the movies show that there are many different ways to interpret Star Wars and the Original Trilogy. Star Wars is a part of society now. If you see every new novel, video game, and movie as a fixed, immovable addition to a now "tarnished" original story, you will be forever pessimistic. However, if you see these things as unique and apocryphal tales, sprung from a mythic story that is able to support these wildly divergent perspectives, then the collective experience of Star Wars is an exciting adventure.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Building off of Zahn's vision of the Clone Wars hardly qualifies as adapting the Thrawn trilogy, so unless you're afraid that Thrawn himself or C'baoth would feature heavily in such a reboot, I have no clue as to what your problem with the idea is.

Zahn seems to be adept at writing military strategy and large scale conflicts, it's just that I don't see a deep understanding of the characters, or a desire to bring something new to the table as far as the story is concerned. For example, The Empire Strikes Back took Star Wars in an unexpected direction with Vader's revelation, and that type of story turn is absent from almost all EU fiction, for it would risk rocking the boat. Nobody seems willing to take the risks that Empire took, or to play with audience expectation except Lucas himself, for better or worse. One of the biggest problems with fanfiction in general is a blind adherence to previous convention, regardless of what is best for the story.

xhonzi said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

If a PT reboot were to be made, I'd want it to take the pre-1999 EU into account and stay faithful to it (the clones would be the enemies, Jedi would have children and marry, lightsabers would come in a large range of colours, etc.). Timothy Zahn and Tom Veitch would serve as creative consultants.

I'm thinking of kidnapping Zahn and Veitch and forcing them to show me their story bibles of all of the assumptions they made about the prequel timeframe.

Anyone in?  Who can drive the big black van?

I'd like to know what Zahn meant by "Clone Masters" and what exactly they were.

But in all honesty, I'd rather they stayed away from the Thrawn trilogy, as it didn't really add anything to the Star Wars story in my opinion. There were few new characters, and the established characters were the stars of the show (except for Mara Jade and Thrawn). The problem with that is that those characters had their character arcs already, and they didn't change much (if at all). The final battle of Luke against his clone (cloned from Luke's severed hand) was right out of an amateur fanfic.