NeverarGreat

Well, the world was about to end, see, and, well, it made sense at the time...

A: The Portuguese Air Force (Força Aérea Portuguesa), the Peruvian Air Force (Fuerza Aérea del Peru), and the People's Armed Forces (Forces Armées Populaires).

Q: Why is it important to always chew your food?

Wait, but that was a surprise to even LOTR fans. He doesn't survive in the books, Jackson and Co brought him back for the movies.

I guess that wasn't very clear. I meant that it would be more of a surprise for everyone when he showed up at the end, instead of revealing him before the halfway point like they did.

It is called foreshadowing. And it is for much more than connecting the two trilogies together. In one of the next two films the Necromancer will play a much greater role. What you are saying is pretty much like saying having the character of Anakin Skywalker in the prequels is a pointless reference for the sake of linking the two SW trilogies together. They are very closely connected stories and one leads right into the other.

I don't think you seem to realize that there are two stories being told in these films. It isn't just the tale of the dwarves on their quest to retrieve their gold, which is really just a short little children's story that could easily be fit into a single film. You said anything that wasn't part of Bilbo's story should have been cut, well that is all the book is. But these movies are also the story of Sauron's rise back to power and Gandalf's detective work of piecing together the puzzle of Sauron's plans, which eventually leads to the importance of the forming of the fellowship and the destruction of the ring. These films are basically an adaption of The Hobbit and major parts of The Lord of the Rings: Appendices A and B, merged together and playing out in chronological order.

Oh, I know what PJ is trying to do; however, after seeing the first installment, I just don't think that it's working. Maybe I'll eat my words after seeing the next two.

It is clear you are one of the casual fans you mentioned and you aren't familiar with the books. I think you should just sit back and see how things pan out before getting too worked up. I think what's to come is going to be a lot of fun. I look forward to the stuff about the Necromancer far more than the rest of The Hobbit story, which really is quite anticlimactic. To me the peak of excitement in The Hobbit has always been the goblins in Misty Mountains and Bilbo finding the ring.

Them's fightin' words. Granted, my Tolkien shelf is missing the Silmarillion, but that's only because I'm lending it to a friend. Which of the two versions of the Hobbit on my shelf am I not familiar with? Or perhaps it's The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Tales, or The Children of Hurin that I'm rusty on?

I jest.

Tolkien always used the Eagles as his last minute jump in and save the day thing. A very obvious and blatant deux ex machina. I feel they have always been more than a bit of a cop out. There is really no deep "character" and "philosophy". They aren't confusing, they are just lame.

I agree with that, partially. I'm talking about those casual viewers that think that Gandalf summons them with his magic, and they disappear afterwards, or other such confusion. They don't talk in the movies, they just have Gandalf find a moth and whisper to it for some reason, as if that's enough time for the moth to find the eagles and for them to come like trained animals in search of a reward. In the Hobbit, it is established that the Lord of the Eagles was helped by Gandalf when the wizard removed an arrow from him, and the eagles helped Gandalf and company partly in payment of this debt, and partly because they don't like the goblins either. They would not, however, go near any towns of men, for the men would shoot arrows at them. The ancient race of Eagles are described as "proud and strong and noble-hearted", so they clearly have some character. I just think that showing this would clear up the misunderstandings with casual viewers, and would be an addition to the movie which wasn't made up by PJ. But yes, their continual aid at convenient moments is rather lame. 

Spoilers follow.

Eh, I thought the dwarves were all right. Though it seemed strange that I didn't learn who practically any of them were called, even after almost three hours, and I've read all the books! You'd think that PJ would have included more character bits to differentiate the dwarves.

I did not like much of the Azog bits, mostly because it felt like extra padding, but it also made most of the movie seem like one long chase scene, so there was never a break in the tension, even at Rivendell. It ended up being tiring. Also, it annoyed me that Weathertop was pointlessly shoehorned into this movie, as if we didn't see enough familiar scenery. If I was to do a fanedit, I'd take out all scenes of Azog except for the final one, only because you couldn't really excise that without damaging the story. That way, we would hear about the Azog vs. Thorin relationship, and later it would be a surprise even to LOTR fans that he had survived.

Also a problem with Azog: Having a creepy robot hand. Oh, we're done with that.

I liked the character of Radagast, despite being a bit too cutesy, but there was little reason to have him in the movie. Same with Sauruman, and Galadriel (apparently she can teleport?!) and the stone throwing giants. In fact, any time that the story wasn't solely about Bilbo, they should have cut it. There is something that has been called the Off-Screen-Movie, which is all of the implied events that happen while the actual scenes of the movie are playing, and these implied scenes can make a movie seem more dense, more fast paced, or more dramatic. In the Hobbit, everything about the story is shown onscreen, and this to me makes it seem like there is less story, ironically.

Here's an example. We see three characters that we have just met (Saruman, Elrond, and Galadriel) discuss with Gandalf at length about some place we haven't been (Dol-Guldur) and a character we know almost nothing about (the necromancer). Through this dialogue, we get no impression about what effect it will have on Bilbo, the dwarves, or their quest to go to Erebor. In their discussion, a sword from a ghost that we haven't met yet is revealed, and used to make a subtle argument about the technical nature of magic in Middle Earth, something that we don't know much about. This scene must be absolutely bizarre for a newcomer, and for someone who has seen the LOTR movies, it is pointless collection of references for the sake of linking the two narratives together.

All of this, and they still don't explain the character and philosophy of the eagles, which have probably caused more casual fan confusion than any other element of the movies.

I think that the Jedi Code, as it is understood from the OT, is unworkable in the long run. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." That has been demonstrably shown not to have worked out for Luke when he faced the Emperor. It is kind of like King Arthur's Grail quest; all of his best knights achieve the grail and are taken up to heaven, while his worst knights remain on Earth. Any Jedi Order would probably have the same fate.

I agree that for the Jedi path to work, it would need to change. Just not in the way that Jeni intends.

McFlabbergasty said:

NeverarGreat said:

I like that Han, Chewie, and the droids all died. Their character arcs were pretty well over anyway.

Chewie's.....arc?

DOES

NOT

COMPUTE 

Well, I guess just Han. Derpy derp.

Anchorhead said:

NeverarGreat said:

I am simply bewildered that so many people say that Zahn understands Star Wars better than Lucas. Zahn never tells us anything new about the Force, doesn't really force any of the primary cast to change

Thrawn and Mara Jade seemed to be the only characters that he cared about

I suppose it's all about what a person wants from a novel and what you consider understanding Star Wars. If it's strictly the magic of the journey from 1977, I feel like Zahn understands it much better than Lucas.  If it's Tolkienesque mythology - that's all Lucas.

I wanted something more than the tired rehash of Jedi v Sith.  I didn't find that stuff even remotely interesting in the one prequel I saw, so I certainly didn't want to read any novels about it.  I wouldn't have bothered.

Correct on Zahn not delving into, or explaining, the Force.  I loved it's mystery in 1977, so I enjoy its continued mystical properties in the Zahn novels.  I'd much rather have it be an unknown magical property that only some people can feel - instead of Lucas' heavy-handed over explanation of how it can simply be measured with a Lady Gillette and then discussed ad nauseum in some chamber of elders.

Also correct on Mara and Thrawn being the focus of several of his novels.  He invented those characters, so it stands to reason he'd write about them more often.

Regarding character development;  I'd agree that Han & Leia go through very little of it in his novels.  However, they don't figure into his stories much beyond vehicle, so they don't need to have lengthy novels about personal growth. That, by the way, is fine with me because I don't find either character to be very interesting.  Luke is a continuation of, and maturing of, the character he was in Return.  I think his character growth is realistic.

On a related note;  To me, Zahn understands and handles Lando far better than Lucas.  The novels where he figures into the story are some of the best of Zahn's work.

Mara receives the bulk of the growth through the years.  We see her from the time she's 18 to around the age of forty and her character is wildly different as she grows and matures through the years. I enjoy her stories more than any of the others.  I particularly like her depth when she's older.

If you dig the Sith\Jedi arc, there appears to be shelf after shelf of it in the book stores.  Compared to what I seek out in EU, it's much more popular.  It's not what I'd prefer, but I expect the Disney films to go in that direction.

 

I don't care for Jedi vs Sith either. Personally I don't consider the idea of the Sith to even be canon, even if it was mentioned in the novelization. However, each of the original movies showed a different aspect of the Force, which is what made it so interesting. The idea of battle meditation was interesting, but it also felt like a retcon of a perfectly cinematic situation in order to make it satisfying from a tactical standpoint.

On the subject of the original characters, if they weren't going to change, why have them in the story at all? I like the military aspect of Zahn's books, and if he did a sequel trilogy focused purely on the battles with his created characters, then I think it would be a much more interesting story. But people need to see our heroes plastered on the covers of EU books for them to be sold.

Tobar said:

There is nothing about this photo I don't love:

So what is this supposed to be? It looks like there are eight legs on it, each too thin to support the massive feet. Unless of course those are just clamps to make sure someone doesn't walk off with it. Somebody should make an animation of this thing in motion. Whether walking or flying, it would probably look ridiculous.

The fact that it was a reference to the Dagobah cave is also one of the reasons that I didn't like it. We already had Luke face an evil version of himself with his fight with Vader, and that was more dramatic because Luke was the underdog. I felt sorry for the Luke clone, as he only had the crazy C'baoth as a teacher. There was never any chance of him beating Luke, and this was one of the primary difficulties of the Thrawn trilogy. The Empire were the underdogs, and so it felt like I should be on their side. 

But I'm defeating the purpose of this thread. What I like about the EU...

Well, there were some good parts of the Corellian Trilogy, in particular the idea that an entire solar system could be engineered by aliens unknown. It focuses on Han, so we don't have any overpowered Jedi shenanigans on the outing, and Centerpoint Station was a neat idea. I read it years ago, so my memory is hazy I tell you, HAZY!

I'm surprised that people think that Zahn is the best of the EU writers. I read a lot of EU books when I was really into Star Wars for the first time. This was probably around the time of Episode 1, and I was reading everything I could get my hands on. Eventually I began reading the New Jedi Order books, but lost interest. Then folks on this site were saying how good the Thrawn trilogy was, so I got it last year and read them, realizing partway through that I had already read them.

I know that these books basically began the EU, but I am simply bewildered that so many people say that Zahn understands Star Wars better than Lucas. Zahn never tells us anything new about the Force, doesn't really force any of the primary cast to change, and recycles much of their dialogue from the movies without insight. Thrawn and Mara Jade seemed to be the only characters that he cared about, and the books shine in their tactical and military subtleties, but that's about their only strength.

Spoilers ahead.

When it was revealed that Luke was cloned from his severed hand, and that this clone wielded the lightsaber from this hand that had fallen down the bottomless pit in Cloud City, it read like a bad fanfic. Thirteen hundred pages for a fight between yourself and your clone? Really?

But trust me, things will get epic. This is a sequel trilogy. Anything can happen. It won't end in a way that leads to anything else that has existed in the post-ROTJ EU, to put it in a non-spoilery way.

 

So no Celestials? Aw, I want me some Celestials.

TheBoost said:

NeverarGreat said:

 

The Silver Coin

 

I really like "The Silver Coin." 

It ties to commerce (the Trade Federation and what not) and has a hint of Biblical reckoning (Judas and his 30 pieces of silver). 

The unknown killer strikes, and leaves a single silver coin in his victim's palm. With your permission I'm gonna use this one.

Wasn't considering the commerce angle. Permission granted.

I've got a question, McFlabbergasty.

Why did Luke and Leia keep the nature of Han's death a secret from Jeni?

I mean, Anakin Skywalker was basically Luke's entire reason for becoming a Jedi, so I understand why his fall was not told to Luke. However, Han's death at the hands of a crime syndicate isn't nearly as horrible as being twisted by evil and gaining a robot suit, committing genocide and fighting against everything that Luke stands for. It seems like Leia, and especially Luke, would be above such petty deception. And anyway, Jeni is supposed to be Force sensitive, and her mother is telepathic. Wouldn't they know that she would probably have the same abilities, and find the truth easily?

But that's just a small detail. Overall, it's pretty good, and I could definitely see Disney going with a story like this. The young, female lead, the derelict remains of the Falcon, the Jedi path, all things that an audience would expect from a sequel to Return of the Jedi. The smaller scale of the conflict (at this point), the echo of Luke's temptation to the Dark Side, the lack of the two droids, are elements that I wouldn't expect in the sequels. I like that Han, Chewie, and the droids all died. Their character arcs were pretty well over anyway.

You may want to illustrate why we should care more about Jeni than we do about Luke and Leia. After all, we've been with them for three movies, and they still seem active in the galaxy at this time. What does Jeni bring to the table that Luke or Leia can't? What makes them unable to truly understand her quest, and what makes her quest suited to her alone? Just some things to consider, if you haven't already.

I'd like to see where it goes!

I think that the green lasers are the high powered Turbolasers. The Turbolasers are large and probably expensive installations, whereas red lasers are lower power and readily available throughout the galaxy, further indicating that the Empire is better equipped. That's how I choose to interpret it, anyway.

Then I won't keep you from the story any longer. After all, Episode VII is coming, and we are most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.

Thanks!

I've got a question for a fellow writer:

Which do you find more difficult to write, a prequel story or a sequel story?

I ask this because it seems to me that prequels fly in the face of one of the most integral writing styles used by most writers, that of letting the story gain a life of its own, and go in unexpected directions. It seems that as the prequels would be seen by many people before the originals, the prequels must therefore be smaller in scope than the originals, and have a collapsed sense of awareness about them. This has been very difficult perspective for me to write from, as I must unlearn what I have learned (including that line!), if only to look at everything anew.

Do you find this to be true?

McFlabbergasty said:

I'm surprised there aren't more sequel trilogy concept threads in this sub-forum. I'm not the only one pumping that well, am I?

 

Nope.

I'm working on a prequel and sequel trilogy, as the first and final chapters of a single story. I'm nowhere near the scene by scene breakdown as you are, but am still in the "throwing big ideas around" stage.

One of the things that I'm sure I don't want to do is repeat the "becoming a Jedi" arc from the OT. The three trilogies should be very different. In the first, Anakin goes from a young teenager ignorant of the galaxy to becoming a pilot in the outer rim territories. After Episode 3 he becomes a Jedi. I'm not sure about what the third trilogy should be about, but I'm thinking along the lines of "what makes a great leader?"and have it be about the Solo's child filling the power vacuum after the Emperor and bringing order to the galaxy.

Three different trilogies; three different journeys, but all connected in a quest for the Skywalker family to save the galaxy, one generation at a time.

Mynock (sabotage and space vampirism)

Enclision (electrocution)

Angel of Mercy

Boba Fett 2

The Silver Coin

Heat Death

The Darkened Eye

The Confessor

The Xyphoid Killer (kills with a sword)

Bingowings said:

I agree.

The PT love it or hate it is as much Star Wars as ROTJ.

It's much better to pretend they made sense and were well made than to pretend they don't exist.

I disagree with you there, Bingo. If I was a writer on the new movies, I think that it would be much better to pretend that they didn't exist. After all, we already had the original trilogy referencing the prequels, even if they hadn't been made yet, so I think the best course of action is to make a story that is much less reliant on events that happened over fifty years ago. Besides, everyone in the story that was alive during that time is now dead, so there's no reason to revisit the past.

Much better to create a story that focuses on the future.

Tyrphanax said:

Nah, you made a different point in terms of the sequels that I hadn't thought of, but do agree with. The Victory Celebration ties everything up almost too well since, like I said, SE Jedi was supposed to be the end of the saga and doesn't leave much room for much of a story afterwards since everything is said and done.

Although with the OT actors being as old as they are now, the likelihood that the ST will be pushed back to a point where Disney wouldn't tell the stories of the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Empire is pretty high. Problem is, dealing with a enemy other than the Empire will detach the ST from the rest of the saga (even the PT dealt with the Empire in a way)... it'll be interesting to see what they do since the end of SE Jedi really seems like everything is all wrapped up nice and neat.

All the more reason to remake the prequels with a different, more local, conflict. I'd say a war between two planets, with Anakin as the hero. An interplanetary war is still a pretty big deal, from a certain point of view.

Then we could have an epic intergalactic war for the sequel trilogy, and keep things fresh. It seems pointless to always keep the story at the same scale.

For the ending of the original trilogy, I think the original music works well. As the end of a six film saga, however, I agree that victory celebration is more fitting, as well as the images of the celebrating galaxy, however nonsensical they actually are.

There's yet another angle to look at this from, however. If episodes 7, 8, and 9 attempt to conclude the entire saga, I believe that the original Yub Nub song could work remarkably well, as it gives the message that the victory of the Rebels was only a local victory, and as such warranted only a local celebration. The audience would look to the final trilogy to complete the story, whatever it turns out to be, and the end of episode 9 would conclude on a victory celebration on a galactic scale, and one that was truly warranted.

Edit: Tyrphanax, you beat me to it.

Star Wars Beyond the Galaxy

Star Wars Across the Universe

Star Wars Into Eternity

Bingowings said:

Is the alien in the cat?

Alright, I can take a hint. If you want, I will start a thread in the script rewriting area, and stop hijacking this thread. Y'all can ignore me over there!

;)

lol @ you guys...

It's a pre-hyperspace ship. Meaning from before there was hyperdrive. People were probably put into hibernation because the trip took so long, but Anakin was floating in space for far longer than he should have, so he has a particularly bad case of hibernation sickness. He doesn't have a memory of any time before that, as he was put there as a small child, and has been raised by the Lars family ever since. It's a mysterious beginning to his life, and one that can be explored throughout the prequels.

That's only one idea, of course. I chose the blindness angle because it seemed to fit well with the radio drama medium, and would give the audience and Anakin a point of similarity.

Besides, ANH raised many more questions than it answered, and the OT still holds up perfectly well with the audience imagining what came before.

TK-949 said:

There are two great PT Audio Plays available. "Labyrinth of Evil" and "Dark Lord". They contain all the original voices from the movies, as well as music and soundeffects. The only problem for 90% of the guys (and girls) here: it's in German. ;-)

The guy who did these is currently working on the "Thrawn-Trilogy". Three of four parts from "Heir To The Empire" are already available.

So wait, did they get Hayden et al. to do the voices in German?

Actually, I found some more info. Okay, that makes sense. Ignore the previous.

What I meant was; did anyone in the fan community do a radio drama based on a rewrite of the prequels? Kind of specific, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in the works somewhere.

My idea was to have a very young Anakin Skywalker be frozen in a hibernation pod on a pre-hyperspace ship for many decades, and to be revived by the Lars family and raised by them after the ship crashes on a distant world. His advanced form of hibernation sickness renders him blind, and he struggles to survive in the harsh Outer Rim Territories. Our story picks up when their planet is attacked by another planet in the same solar system, and a teenage Anakin must defy all odds to become a pilot despite his blindness, which lasts through the prequels.