NeverarGreat

McFlabbergasty said:

NeverarGreat said:

I like that Han, Chewie, and the droids all died. Their character arcs were pretty well over anyway.

Chewie's.....arc?

DOES

NOT

COMPUTE 

Well, I guess just Han. Derpy derp.

Anchorhead said:

NeverarGreat said:

I am simply bewildered that so many people say that Zahn understands Star Wars better than Lucas. Zahn never tells us anything new about the Force, doesn't really force any of the primary cast to change

Thrawn and Mara Jade seemed to be the only characters that he cared about

I suppose it's all about what a person wants from a novel and what you consider understanding Star Wars. If it's strictly the magic of the journey from 1977, I feel like Zahn understands it much better than Lucas.  If it's Tolkienesque mythology - that's all Lucas.

I wanted something more than the tired rehash of Jedi v Sith.  I didn't find that stuff even remotely interesting in the one prequel I saw, so I certainly didn't want to read any novels about it.  I wouldn't have bothered.

Correct on Zahn not delving into, or explaining, the Force.  I loved it's mystery in 1977, so I enjoy its continued mystical properties in the Zahn novels.  I'd much rather have it be an unknown magical property that only some people can feel - instead of Lucas' heavy-handed over explanation of how it can simply be measured with a Lady Gillette and then discussed ad nauseum in some chamber of elders.

Also correct on Mara and Thrawn being the focus of several of his novels.  He invented those characters, so it stands to reason he'd write about them more often.

Regarding character development;  I'd agree that Han & Leia go through very little of it in his novels.  However, they don't figure into his stories much beyond vehicle, so they don't need to have lengthy novels about personal growth. That, by the way, is fine with me because I don't find either character to be very interesting.  Luke is a continuation of, and maturing of, the character he was in Return.  I think his character growth is realistic.

On a related note;  To me, Zahn understands and handles Lando far better than Lucas.  The novels where he figures into the story are some of the best of Zahn's work.

Mara receives the bulk of the growth through the years.  We see her from the time she's 18 to around the age of forty and her character is wildly different as she grows and matures through the years. I enjoy her stories more than any of the others.  I particularly like her depth when she's older.

If you dig the Sith\Jedi arc, there appears to be shelf after shelf of it in the book stores.  Compared to what I seek out in EU, it's much more popular.  It's not what I'd prefer, but I expect the Disney films to go in that direction.

 

I don't care for Jedi vs Sith either. Personally I don't consider the idea of the Sith to even be canon, even if it was mentioned in the novelization. However, each of the original movies showed a different aspect of the Force, which is what made it so interesting. The idea of battle meditation was interesting, but it also felt like a retcon of a perfectly cinematic situation in order to make it satisfying from a tactical standpoint.

On the subject of the original characters, if they weren't going to change, why have them in the story at all? I like the military aspect of Zahn's books, and if he did a sequel trilogy focused purely on the battles with his created characters, then I think it would be a much more interesting story. But people need to see our heroes plastered on the covers of EU books for them to be sold.

Tobar said:

There is nothing about this photo I don't love:

So what is this supposed to be? It looks like there are eight legs on it, each too thin to support the massive feet. Unless of course those are just clamps to make sure someone doesn't walk off with it. Somebody should make an animation of this thing in motion. Whether walking or flying, it would probably look ridiculous.

The fact that it was a reference to the Dagobah cave is also one of the reasons that I didn't like it. We already had Luke face an evil version of himself with his fight with Vader, and that was more dramatic because Luke was the underdog. I felt sorry for the Luke clone, as he only had the crazy C'baoth as a teacher. There was never any chance of him beating Luke, and this was one of the primary difficulties of the Thrawn trilogy. The Empire were the underdogs, and so it felt like I should be on their side. 

But I'm defeating the purpose of this thread. What I like about the EU...

Well, there were some good parts of the Corellian Trilogy, in particular the idea that an entire solar system could be engineered by aliens unknown. It focuses on Han, so we don't have any overpowered Jedi shenanigans on the outing, and Centerpoint Station was a neat idea. I read it years ago, so my memory is hazy I tell you, HAZY!

I'm surprised that people think that Zahn is the best of the EU writers. I read a lot of EU books when I was really into Star Wars for the first time. This was probably around the time of Episode 1, and I was reading everything I could get my hands on. Eventually I began reading the New Jedi Order books, but lost interest. Then folks on this site were saying how good the Thrawn trilogy was, so I got it last year and read them, realizing partway through that I had already read them.

I know that these books basically began the EU, but I am simply bewildered that so many people say that Zahn understands Star Wars better than Lucas. Zahn never tells us anything new about the Force, doesn't really force any of the primary cast to change, and recycles much of their dialogue from the movies without insight. Thrawn and Mara Jade seemed to be the only characters that he cared about, and the books shine in their tactical and military subtleties, but that's about their only strength.

Spoilers ahead.

When it was revealed that Luke was cloned from his severed hand, and that this clone wielded the lightsaber from this hand that had fallen down the bottomless pit in Cloud City, it read like a bad fanfic. Thirteen hundred pages for a fight between yourself and your clone? Really?

But trust me, things will get epic. This is a sequel trilogy. Anything can happen. It won't end in a way that leads to anything else that has existed in the post-ROTJ EU, to put it in a non-spoilery way.

 

So no Celestials? Aw, I want me some Celestials.

TheBoost said:

NeverarGreat said:

 

The Silver Coin

 

I really like "The Silver Coin." 

It ties to commerce (the Trade Federation and what not) and has a hint of Biblical reckoning (Judas and his 30 pieces of silver). 

The unknown killer strikes, and leaves a single silver coin in his victim's palm. With your permission I'm gonna use this one.

Wasn't considering the commerce angle. Permission granted.

I've got a question, McFlabbergasty.

Why did Luke and Leia keep the nature of Han's death a secret from Jeni?

I mean, Anakin Skywalker was basically Luke's entire reason for becoming a Jedi, so I understand why his fall was not told to Luke. However, Han's death at the hands of a crime syndicate isn't nearly as horrible as being twisted by evil and gaining a robot suit, committing genocide and fighting against everything that Luke stands for. It seems like Leia, and especially Luke, would be above such petty deception. And anyway, Jeni is supposed to be Force sensitive, and her mother is telepathic. Wouldn't they know that she would probably have the same abilities, and find the truth easily?

But that's just a small detail. Overall, it's pretty good, and I could definitely see Disney going with a story like this. The young, female lead, the derelict remains of the Falcon, the Jedi path, all things that an audience would expect from a sequel to Return of the Jedi. The smaller scale of the conflict (at this point), the echo of Luke's temptation to the Dark Side, the lack of the two droids, are elements that I wouldn't expect in the sequels. I like that Han, Chewie, and the droids all died. Their character arcs were pretty well over anyway.

You may want to illustrate why we should care more about Jeni than we do about Luke and Leia. After all, we've been with them for three movies, and they still seem active in the galaxy at this time. What does Jeni bring to the table that Luke or Leia can't? What makes them unable to truly understand her quest, and what makes her quest suited to her alone? Just some things to consider, if you haven't already.

I'd like to see where it goes!

I think that the green lasers are the high powered Turbolasers. The Turbolasers are large and probably expensive installations, whereas red lasers are lower power and readily available throughout the galaxy, further indicating that the Empire is better equipped. That's how I choose to interpret it, anyway.

Then I won't keep you from the story any longer. After all, Episode VII is coming, and we are most displeased with your apparent lack of progress.

Thanks!

I've got a question for a fellow writer:

Which do you find more difficult to write, a prequel story or a sequel story?

I ask this because it seems to me that prequels fly in the face of one of the most integral writing styles used by most writers, that of letting the story gain a life of its own, and go in unexpected directions. It seems that as the prequels would be seen by many people before the originals, the prequels must therefore be smaller in scope than the originals, and have a collapsed sense of awareness about them. This has been very difficult perspective for me to write from, as I must unlearn what I have learned (including that line!), if only to look at everything anew.

Do you find this to be true?

McFlabbergasty said:

I'm surprised there aren't more sequel trilogy concept threads in this sub-forum. I'm not the only one pumping that well, am I?

 

Nope.

I'm working on a prequel and sequel trilogy, as the first and final chapters of a single story. I'm nowhere near the scene by scene breakdown as you are, but am still in the "throwing big ideas around" stage.

One of the things that I'm sure I don't want to do is repeat the "becoming a Jedi" arc from the OT. The three trilogies should be very different. In the first, Anakin goes from a young teenager ignorant of the galaxy to becoming a pilot in the outer rim territories. After Episode 3 he becomes a Jedi. I'm not sure about what the third trilogy should be about, but I'm thinking along the lines of "what makes a great leader?"and have it be about the Solo's child filling the power vacuum after the Emperor and bringing order to the galaxy.

Three different trilogies; three different journeys, but all connected in a quest for the Skywalker family to save the galaxy, one generation at a time.

Mynock (sabotage and space vampirism)

Enclision (electrocution)

Angel of Mercy

Boba Fett 2

The Silver Coin

Heat Death

The Darkened Eye

The Confessor

The Xyphoid Killer (kills with a sword)

Bingowings said:

I agree.

The PT love it or hate it is as much Star Wars as ROTJ.

It's much better to pretend they made sense and were well made than to pretend they don't exist.

I disagree with you there, Bingo. If I was a writer on the new movies, I think that it would be much better to pretend that they didn't exist. After all, we already had the original trilogy referencing the prequels, even if they hadn't been made yet, so I think the best course of action is to make a story that is much less reliant on events that happened over fifty years ago. Besides, everyone in the story that was alive during that time is now dead, so there's no reason to revisit the past.

Much better to create a story that focuses on the future.

Tyrphanax said:

Nah, you made a different point in terms of the sequels that I hadn't thought of, but do agree with. The Victory Celebration ties everything up almost too well since, like I said, SE Jedi was supposed to be the end of the saga and doesn't leave much room for much of a story afterwards since everything is said and done.

Although with the OT actors being as old as they are now, the likelihood that the ST will be pushed back to a point where Disney wouldn't tell the stories of the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Empire is pretty high. Problem is, dealing with a enemy other than the Empire will detach the ST from the rest of the saga (even the PT dealt with the Empire in a way)... it'll be interesting to see what they do since the end of SE Jedi really seems like everything is all wrapped up nice and neat.

All the more reason to remake the prequels with a different, more local, conflict. I'd say a war between two planets, with Anakin as the hero. An interplanetary war is still a pretty big deal, from a certain point of view.

Then we could have an epic intergalactic war for the sequel trilogy, and keep things fresh. It seems pointless to always keep the story at the same scale.

For the ending of the original trilogy, I think the original music works well. As the end of a six film saga, however, I agree that victory celebration is more fitting, as well as the images of the celebrating galaxy, however nonsensical they actually are.

There's yet another angle to look at this from, however. If episodes 7, 8, and 9 attempt to conclude the entire saga, I believe that the original Yub Nub song could work remarkably well, as it gives the message that the victory of the Rebels was only a local victory, and as such warranted only a local celebration. The audience would look to the final trilogy to complete the story, whatever it turns out to be, and the end of episode 9 would conclude on a victory celebration on a galactic scale, and one that was truly warranted.

Edit: Tyrphanax, you beat me to it.

Star Wars Beyond the Galaxy

Star Wars Across the Universe

Star Wars Into Eternity

Bingowings said:

Is the alien in the cat?

Alright, I can take a hint. If you want, I will start a thread in the script rewriting area, and stop hijacking this thread. Y'all can ignore me over there!

;)

lol @ you guys...

It's a pre-hyperspace ship. Meaning from before there was hyperdrive. People were probably put into hibernation because the trip took so long, but Anakin was floating in space for far longer than he should have, so he has a particularly bad case of hibernation sickness. He doesn't have a memory of any time before that, as he was put there as a small child, and has been raised by the Lars family ever since. It's a mysterious beginning to his life, and one that can be explored throughout the prequels.

That's only one idea, of course. I chose the blindness angle because it seemed to fit well with the radio drama medium, and would give the audience and Anakin a point of similarity.

Besides, ANH raised many more questions than it answered, and the OT still holds up perfectly well with the audience imagining what came before.

TK-949 said:

There are two great PT Audio Plays available. "Labyrinth of Evil" and "Dark Lord". They contain all the original voices from the movies, as well as music and soundeffects. The only problem for 90% of the guys (and girls) here: it's in German. ;-)

The guy who did these is currently working on the "Thrawn-Trilogy". Three of four parts from "Heir To The Empire" are already available.

So wait, did they get Hayden et al. to do the voices in German?

Actually, I found some more info. Okay, that makes sense. Ignore the previous.

What I meant was; did anyone in the fan community do a radio drama based on a rewrite of the prequels? Kind of specific, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in the works somewhere.

My idea was to have a very young Anakin Skywalker be frozen in a hibernation pod on a pre-hyperspace ship for many decades, and to be revived by the Lars family and raised by them after the ship crashes on a distant world. His advanced form of hibernation sickness renders him blind, and he struggles to survive in the harsh Outer Rim Territories. Our story picks up when their planet is attacked by another planet in the same solar system, and a teenage Anakin must defy all odds to become a pilot despite his blindness, which lasts through the prequels.

Just finished listening to it. Very good.

Boba Fett was pretty bad, but Han nailed it. I just wish that there weren't so many nods to his subsequent lines from Empire.

This, and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy radio dramas have gotten me thinking; has anyone done a radio drama of a prequel rewrite? I've got what I think is a rather unique idea for one.

Anyway, really good for a live read!

greenpenguino said:

Easterhay said:

"Loath"? And this fella's taken it upon himself to rewrite the prequels?

Hey! He's not the only one. Quite a lot of people have done it too. I've done it myself, and I loath them too. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

Loath: Unwilling to do something contrary to one's ways of thinking; reluctant.

Loathe: To dislike greatly and often with disgust and intolerance.

"I was loath (reluctant) to rewrite the prequels."

"I loathe (dislike) the idea of rewriting the prequels."

BmB said:

 

NeverarGreat said:There really is something magical about the original end credits of Star Wars, isn't there? It just flows like pure inspiration, and the other end credits compositions for all the other movies just highlight the fact that the first one was perfect. The others almost seem forced (no pun intended) so that they can end on the same musical motif. It's actually jarring to have the Star Wars end credits at the end of ESB. That movie has a much different end, and should probably have had an entirely different composition to match.

What do you mean? ESB ends on a version of the rebel theme, SW ends on a version of the throne room motif itself.

I probably like the ESB credits the best. It's a more romantic, less heroic and more mellow theme that rolls off the optimistic drama of that film perfectly. Plus, it's the one you hear in all the trailers and whatnot.

I actually really enjoy the prequel credits as composed, the ones on the albums. The very mellow horn restating anakins theme in AOTC, ROTS coming full circle with a full length restatement of the throne room theme. And of course anakin's theme from TPM itself, the only one that played in theaters as composed. :/

 

It's right when the credits of ESB appear. The slow buildup gives way to the same motif from the first film, which then transitions back into a version of Yoda's theme. My point was that both compositions are identical in the first few seconds of the credits, and it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the ESB.

However, I agree that AOTC probably had the best end credits after Star Wars, simply for the Across the Stars theme.

captainsolo said:

But if I had to pinpoint the exact moment where I became a purist, it's not the discovery of so many losing all their hard 1977 work to a CG effect, it's not blinking Ewoks, bad EU, blowing more $ on merchandise or any other of such good reasons....it was rediscovering the spirit of the original film itself, one of discovering one's desired adventure along with a sense of purpose. The moment in the end credits where the score fades to the strings just before the final musical climax brought tears of long repressed joy to my eyes. I couldn't help it. Still can't.

When and Why: The mono mix and Puggo Grande.

There really is something magical about the original end credits of Star Wars, isn't there? It just flows like pure inspiration, and the other end credits compositions for all the other movies just highlight the fact that the first one was perfect. The others almost seem forced (no pun intended) so that they can end on the same musical motif. It's actually jarring to have the Star Wars end credits at the end of ESB. That movie has a much different end, and should probably have had an entirely different composition to match.

R2-D2 saved the Queen's starship in Episode 1. Without Artoo, the ship would have been destroyed, and the Jedi killed, as well as the queen. Nute Gunray is successfully prosecuted for invading Naboo and killing the queen. Qui-Gon and Obi-wan would never have stopped on Tatooine to find Anakin, and so Anakin would never have become a Jedi, nor would he have become a Sith. A new leader of Naboo would have been elected, and as Jar-Jar had been killed as well, he wouldn't have called for emergency powers for the Chancellor, even if the Trade Federation had remained intact after that fiasco. In short, if Artoo had never existed, the Empire would never have been formed.

"I don't know what all the trouble is about, but I'm sure it must be your fault."