NeverarGreat

http://rmwimages.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/rmw-article-p3-update-june1.pdf

A link to an article discussing RMW's projects and tools. From the article:

"After RMW bought Lowry Digital, the company has completely restored over 50 commercially released classic films and DVDs over the past decade, including Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Singing in the Rain, the James Bond library, the Star Wars trilogy and numerous Disney films."

More evidence to consider.

I have a new theory about the folks at Lucasfilm that colortimed the 2004/2011 master. They were trying to save the originals by making the SE so bad that people would rise up and demand justice. Think about it. It's actually quite difficult to accidentally crush blacks and blow out whites on professional color correction systems (especially correcting with scopes), so they had to know what they were doing. Having gotten away with it on Star Wars, they went crazy with Empire.  "Surely people won't stand for this and demand refunds" they said. "Surely they will demand a proper restoration after this" they said.

Nope.

msycamore said:

It should be noted that the before and after sample with the droids in the desert seems to be the old 2004 Lowry fiasco. It's old.

 I disagree. It looks like a new cleanup. Here's why:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/84284/picture:0

The damage in the red circle of the first comparison is completely dealt with in the RMW cleanup. However, this same cleanup seems to add a peculiar bit of damage in the green circle of the first comparison.

Moving to the comparison with the Blu-ray, there now appears to be damage in the red circle which was supposedly dealt with in the RMW cleanup. In the green circle of the Blu-ray, the spot of damage near R2 which is present in the cleanup is gone in the Blu-ray (and there's a different green artifact apparent in the Blu-ray). Also, I reduced the quality of the Blu-ray to match the RMW video, and the discrepancy remains, so the video resolution can hold this damage information.

There are several such damage discrepancies in this shot. I really don't think that this is the original Lowry work.

gizzy2000 said:

I also went back to page 2 of this thread and looked at the lightsaber flash comparisons and you can tell that (other than color) the flashes are identical to the blu ray and not the GOUT. The only possibility is that they color corrected the blu ray and edited out SE changes and re-added the real scenes, which honestly, I could live with, if they do it right

I am sure that this is a different scan than the Blu-ray, because if you look at my comparisons the new version has a different warping pattern than the Blu-ray:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/83700/picture:1

My conclusions:

This is a new 4K scan of the original negatives and elements, with an improved dirt and scratches detection and elimination algorithm (they boast on their website that manual cleanup is not done on the films they process). It has new colortiming, similar but not always identical to the '97 version of the film (see the running stormtroopers and the green C-3PO). There is no evidence for or against '97 SE changes, but as this is not a simple scan of the '97 interpositive, such changes seem unlikely to be included. The evidence leans in favor of an OUT release which has yet to be announced by Disney.

gizzy2000 said:

yes I think you might be right. Now the question is, what is the purpose of the scan then?

 That's the million dollar question, now isn't it ;)

Ernest and Celestine (2012)

Wonderful. A beautifully animated film that looks like it was painted in watercolor, with a simple story appropriate for all ages.

The English dub is also quite good.

gizzy2000 said:

I think the RMW looks more like the '97 SE than the blu ray

 In terms of overall color balance, absolutely.

However, I don't think that color would be much of a factor when determining the origin of a particular element, as any scan of the original negative would require new colortiming, which could look like whatever they wanted it to look like. The area of interest to me would be the lightsaber effects, as these are the only parts of the shot which would need to be scanned from separate low quality (and thus probably more degraded) originals. If you look at the progression of Vader's saber from the GOUT to the RMW version, it gets progressively wider and blurrier. If the RMW shot was simply scanned from the SE interpositive made in '97, there would be no need to re-composite the lightsabers and Vader's saber would be as sharp as it is in the '97 screenshot. As it appears even more degraded than in the Blu-ray, the logical answer is that it couldn't possibly be a simple scan of the '97 SE.

Short answer: A '97 SE scan would have identical lightsabers to the '97 screenshot. They don't, so it's not a scan of the '97 print.

DarthShackleford said:

Does this mean there's now a better chance that the RMW scan could be OOT? Weren't we assuming '97 because we thought it tied into the Plaza? Or did the screenshot comparison rule out OOT?

It was only a hunch that the Plaza was showing the RMW work, a hunch that was clearly wrong if the colors were the same as the 2011 release.

Here's another comparison between releases:

Top Blu-ray, Bottom RMW.

Top corrected GOUT, bottom corrected 97 SE:

It seems like the lightsaber compositing of the RMW matches the Blu-ray, but that could simply be because the original lightsaber elements are faded, accounting for similar results in both shots. If they simply scanned the '97 version, it would seem to me that the compositing would match the bottom shot. So I'm still thinking that the RMW is a new 4K scan of the original elements which have been assembled in a way which is similar to the 2011 version.

yoda-sama said:

Got this response from them on facebook.  I also have since given them Jabba pictures to pick between to tell me which one is in this movie, that should narrow down what they're looking at.  I'll let you know if I get a response.

" I did get to see 20-25 min today . It is a stunning digital print and is the "Special Edition " version . Hans shoots second . We are using the term special addition to help with confusion but technically there is no such thing . "

If they are sure that Han shoots second, this could be the '97 version untouched by 2004 and 2011 changes, because in the 2011 version Han shoots only two frames after Greedo, and is easily confused, whereas in the '97 version he shoots a full 8 frames after Greedo and is impossible to miss.

AntcuFaalb said:

NeverarGreat said:

AntcuFaalb said:

NeverarGreat said:

That's my vote. My tickets to the screening in Atlanta have already been refunded though.

NOOOOOO! You must go! :-(

All sold out. Besides, six hours is quite a drive for the SE. I'm sure we can find someone who has tickets who is obsessive enough to recognize what went into its making.

Ah, sorry. I was under the mistaken impression that you live close by.

 Six hours away is very close by for a screening of the original, but far, far away for a screening of the SE ;)

AntcuFaalb said:

NeverarGreat said:

That's my vote. My tickets to the screening in Atlanta have already been refunded though.

NOOOOOO! You must go! :-(

All sold out. Besides, six hours is quite a drive for the SE. I'm sure we can find someone who has tickets who is obsessive enough to recognize what went into its making.

E. The original negative scanned at 4K around the time of the 3D conversion announcement in 2010, with special edition changes.

That's my vote. My tickets to the screening in Atlanta have already been refunded though.

The "original" in the restoration comparison can't be the interpositive made for the SE, as most of the damage of the original was dealt with in the cleanup for that version, and the damage matches the O-neg pretty perfectly. Furthermore, the original Lowry cleanup left some scratches on the Blu-ray which are cleaned up on the new video. This leads me to believe that it is a completely new cleanup of the original elements. Whether or not they include the SE changes is another matter, but it's pretty clear that at least part of what they have their hands on is the original.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/83728/picture:0

It's got the same exact damage as the 2004 restoration from the negative (found on SaveStarWars.com). It may have different warping however, which would suggest a new restoration from the original negative.

Here are three screengrabs which I've fit to the bluray dimensions. There's different warping on the stills in question, so it's pretty clearly a new scan:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/83700/picture:0

The skintones look much better on this scan, as well as the shadow detail (check out the switches behind C-3PO and the X-Wing starfield). The oppressive pink flashes are handled much better as well. The reds are not bleeding, nor are the greens (R2's green panel lights), and the exposure is far better here. The only gripe I have is that C-3PO looks too green, but that's small potatoes compared to the dramatic jump in quality in this scan.

JEDIT: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/83709/picture:0

The shadow detail regained in the trench run shot is quite excellent.

ONE OF US

Tobar said:

NeverarGreat said:

So I guess I'm getting a refund then. It seems like they're not sure what they're getting from Fox, but in my mind there is no chance that it is anything except the Special Edition, and the 2011 version at that.

 We still need someone to make sure!

Ha! A six hour drive may be worth it to see the original, but not the SE. Sorry chaps.

The Plaza Atlanta responded to at least two questions asking if it is the non-SE version claiming that it is the original, but then later deleted the questions and their answers. I messaged them to get a definitive answer, and they answered that Fox claims that it is the original 1977 movie, and that this theater is getting the very first DCP for this movie. Part of the theater's message reads: "The Original means the first Star Wars for those that don't know IV ..."

So I guess I'm getting a refund then. It seems like they're not sure what they're getting from Fox, but in my mind there is no chance that it is anything except the Special Edition, and the 2011 version at that.

Apparently "No one will believe the story" of how it came together, according to Plaza Atlanta. I've got some tickets, so I'll let you guys know how this looks in the theater!

Well, I took a hiatus from this for a month to finish the semester, but I haven't forgotten about you guys, or this project. R&D has completed and the real work has begun.

I haven't been updating this thread because I've encountered no real problems as far as the project is concerned. Setting a release date would be premature, as progress is slow but sure. So hang in there, and it will be done in due time!

Darth Lucas said:

So I just had a thought.  It would be slightly challenging, but if Adywan so wished, he could potentially get some guy dressed up as Vader and another guy dressed up as Ben, shoot against greenscreen to comp them into different death star backdrops, using the actors masked out of the original scene for dialogue and close ups (get a couple screens of ben's face to cover the actor's in wider shots) and expand the Ben/Vader duel to sort of move throughout the death star to make it more exciting, epic, and able to stand alongside the other duels of the saga in terms of excitement and scope.  Ultimately they would move so that they end up with Ben's death in the same place as the original.  It wouldn't be too difficult, just time consuming.

 Honestly I don't think such a change of location would be necessary to give a heightened sense of danger to the scene. In the two or three establishing shots at the beginning of the fight, the view could be zoomed out to show a giant open shaft to the left of Ben (without guardrails of course), with only a five or six foot walkway skirting the side.

Ben realizes that he must make it past Vader to get to the Falcon, and he first tries to cut close to the wall, but Vader blocks his passage. Next he cuts along the edge of the pit, and all that would be needed here would be an added shot of Ben's feet and robes skirting the edge in a closeup. That would go a long way towards making the environment important to the fight.

JEDIT: Adding echoey sound effects which imply open space and perhaps a slight wind ala the Empire catwalk scene would really sell the concept.

Nope, it's the NTSC version. It was probably an importation problem, because I just quickly pulled it into an existing project. I'm getting a duplicated frame at random points in the video, so ignore my previous post.

I found something else which is strange. Mike talked about how the last two frames of the '81 version would have been "lopped off", and so I checked the '97 version against the Team Blu GOUT, and the final frame of the composited Star Destroyer is gone in the '97 version, however the laser blasts are still composited to be in the same place, meaning that the entire Star Destroyer is shifted back one frame in the '97 version compared to the original.

Download both images and flick between them. The Star Destroyer is at precisely the same angle in both, yet this is the second to last frame of the GOUT shot, and the last frame of the '97 shot.

That's awesome. I was just noticing that problem for the first time while watching your timing video just now.

Anyway, I've figured out part of the problem. There's an extra frame on the 2006 DVD somewhere during the pandown in frame 3022 of the GOUT, but not on Team Blu's verson of that DVD, which is GOUT source I assume Harmy is using. So that explains the match.

I've been doing quite a bit of experimentation with other programs such as After Effects, which is why this thread has been silent for a while. I'm able to get good results in both Premiere Pro and AE, but as the scopes in AE are insufficient, I'll probably be sticking with Pro.

They should have placed less emphasis on genetics with regards to Force sensitivity. In the original, more emphasis was placed on the Force being "with" somebody, and I assume this was because the Force is able to aid those willing to fight for peace and justice. Now the primary factor is who your parents are.