Yeah, that’s my thought. The trick will be to get the line right. I’d still like it if she spent more time working on the delivery, so I could recombine the extended sections into a four-attempt scene.
Perhaps so.
However, upon reflection, there may be a more simple solution.
If I could manipulate Kylo’s line to be ‘You will give the map to me’ then Rey’s appropriation of that sentence structure in the next scene would make a lot more sense. If that worked, I doubt that I would keep the split scenes, and would settle for a more subtle edit in this section.
Rey was able to do a mind trick without even seeing it done or being trained regarding it, but she did experience Kylo reading her thoughts, so she isn’t entirely unfamiliar with the idea of manipulating with someone’s mind.
This is the thing that bugs me, and it’s because of the execution - we don’t see her thought process at all. I came to this conclusion as well, but I shouldn’t have to mentally edit the film for them.
This exactly. Most of these Mary Sue accusations are happening not because of misogyny or because people don’t like her character but because there’s one too many conveniences and assumptions made on the part of the writers/director, and the mind trick is the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. Each one of these attributes alone is forgivable, but for us to buy the mind trick we must assume that she’s learned everything about this mind trick from Kylo despite the fact that he doesn’t actually mind trick anyone in the film, or that she knew enough about the ways of the Jedi to use the exact same sentence structure as Ben and Luke in the original trilogy. I find both of those assumptions to be a bridge too far, and it jolts me out of the movie. I’m currently working on a way to fix this in my fanedit, btw.
Honestly R2 magically coming alive is the biggest face palm in the movie to me. I don’t get it and I don’t like whole the map thing.
The reasoning I use is that BB-8’s suggestion that the map was in R2’s backup data caused R2 to begin searching the data, and he finishes the search at the end of the film. TFA-Restructured 2.0 will have this change 😃
I concur.
My ranking:
SW
ESB
ROTJ
ET
AOTC
TPM
TFA
ROTS
ROFirst of all, if you’re gonna count ET don’t shaft it in your rankings, and second of all, how is AOTC better than TPM, TFA, ROTS, and RO?
First, because it’s only the most tangentially related to Star Wars, and second, because I’m ranking them based on how often I’ve listened to them. I listen to AOTC a lot more than the other prequels and sequels, though TFA has been climbing in the rankings of late.
😃
Except that the SE color timing is supposedly part of Lucas’ original creative vision. Magenta Leia and all.
At least that’s something fans have been able to fix relatively easily.
Hollow laughter
My ranking:
SW
ESB
ROTJ
ET
AOTC
TPM
TFA
ROTS
RO
It’s funny, the whole reason for splitting the interrogation was to split the mind trick, and now I like the interrogations but don’t like the mind trick scenes.
Update: I held the first part of the mind until trick after Kylo’s prayer, so now there’s a better flow. The first mind trick is essentially a prelude to the final interrogation now, separated only by Kylo stomping down the hall.
The major problem is that the second mind trick scene needs a different tone to account for her awakened power. I wonder if putting some music over the second scene would do the trick. Something subtle but dark and powerful. Thoughts?
It sure would be nice if we could discuss Rey’s character without pulling out the tired misogynistic term “Mary Sue.”
I don’t think the term is misogynistic, since it was originally designed to apply to fanfic at a time when (according to TV Tropes) most of it was written by female authors.
If anyone wants to know the specific traits of the prototypical Mary Sue, here’s a detailed breakdown:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits
Here’s my score, based on this detailed list:
Personality: 1.5/8
I give her half a point each for All-Loving Hero, Dark and Troubled Past, and Informed Flaws.
Skills: 4/6
(Singing Voice and Sex are NA) Half a point each for Inexplicable Skills, Better than the Canon Characters (which are portrayed in the film), Unrealistic Skills, and Fashion Sense (since she never really becomes disheveled like Luke). A full point for No envy and Several Languages.
Physical Appearance: 2/9
(NA for Purple Prose, Maintaining Body, and Non-Human) Half a point for Unusual Hair, Physical Activity, Never Look Ugly, and Faceclaims (though not entirely applicable).
Accessories: 2/2
(NA for Web, Music Player, and Pet) Full point each for one-of-a-kind weapon and Cool and Expensive Transport (The Falcon is legendary).
Canon Character Relationships: 2/6
(NA for Related to Caonon Character, since it is unknown at this point) Half point each for Cure All Angst That Ails Him, More Heed than Normal, Change in Reaction to Her, and Special Treatment (why does she get to captain the Falcon instead of Chewie?).
Story Elements: 2.5/12
(NA for Spotlight Stealing, Same Age as Author, Ethnicity of Author, and Heroic Sacrifice)
Half point each for Chosen One, Blithe Spirit, and Never Does Wrong. Full point for Tragic Family Life.
Names: 2/8
Full point each for Meaningful Name and Reference to Celestial Body.
Presentation: 0/2
(NA for everything except Visual Media and Honestly Speaking about Her)
Author Investment in the Character: NA
Final Score: 16/47
After this exhaustive analysis, I deem Rey to have several Mary Sue characteristics, but to be ultimately innocent of the charge.
I found TFA to be an almost excessively ‘meta’ denunciation of the PT era cinematic franchise beholden to far too many of the cliches and painful trappings of modern blockbusters…including elements of the Prequels. If there’s any dispute, the first line of dialogue in the film, from Lor San Tekka, was ‘this will begin to make things right. I’ve seen too much despair’.
Phasma was entirely unnecessary to the plot, serving purely as a Boba Fett surrogate-slash-merchandising tie-in. Gwendoline Christie, who portrays such a unique and strong warrior, Brienne of Tarth, in ‘Game of Thrones’, deserved far better than this silliness. BB-8, similarly, was another aesthetic ‘selling point’ to orient a younger audience. BB-8 was executed pretty well, in all fairness, but the design and its off-putting designation/name were more oriented for a Pixar release than Star Wars.
The film arduously inserted mystery and myth into the narrative (likely in reaction to the overly-explained and expository nature of the Prequels). However, ‘The Force Awakens’ sense of mystery and unconnected dots led to an often vapid narrative. Rey’s untold parentage and lack of identity were as troubling as they were needless. We were subject to a trilogy of movies in which the origins of the protagonist were also shrouded in unresolved mystery and an original set of films which turned its protagonist’s sense of identity on its head three times (father as space navigator, then noble Jedi Knight who fell in combat against the antagonist, then the very villain himself). Rey’s parentage, other than that they were likely Jedi based upon her flashback, was simply confused and directionless, rendering her a no-one in the process.
Similarly, TFA’s mythology simply didn’t provide considerable interest, as it was entirely what was presented in the Original Trilogy (e.g., Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, the Force and the Jedi Knights). But it was not without its own original mythology, as we were presented with Luke’s failed attempt at reviving the Jedi, Snoke, Ben Solo’s fall and his ancestry’s impact on his transformation into Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, Han and Leia’s separation in the face of their son’s descent into Dark Side extremism, the First Order’s origins from the vestiges of the Empire, the nature of The New Republic and the Resistance, Lor San Tekka and Maz Kanata’s origins and role in galactic affairs, et al.). All of this could have more fully exploited to have created a richer and more rewarding exposition and sense of mythology. Instead, it was ultimately all unfilled spaces and uncrossed 't’s.
Rey’s alleged status as an almost infallible ‘Mary Sue’ should also be mentioned. While many of her abilities were indeed relative sufficiently explained by her rough and self-sufficient way of life on Jakku (including staff combat, some modicum of piloting skills, etc.), her extraordinary and innate prowess often recalled Anakin’s prodigious excess throughout the Prequels (particularly ‘The Phantom Menace’). Her use of The Force, like Anakin’s, was innate rather than, like Luke’s in the original Star Wars, learnt and guided by instruction.
As for other modern cinematic trappings and cringe-worthy adaptations thereof, the movie was inundated with Marvel Cinematic Universe-styled witless humour. This was not Star Wars-signature humour as illustrated by Leia and Han’s duelling witty barbs or C-3PO and R2-D2’s comic relief (or even the barbs and dated racial and toilet humour of the Prequels). It all proved jarring, although I still enjoyed Boyega’s performance and Han’s ‘that’s not how The Force works’ line, as it further depicted the once Force sceptic rogue’s maturation into a dispenser of knowledge of that very ‘hokey religion’.
On that note, the narrative highlight of the film was Han’s aforementioned transformation and simultaneous regression and rediscovery of his earlier smuggling ways. The Han Solo of ‘The Force Awakens’ wasn’t the uncannily orderly, institutional and respectable figure of ‘Return of the Jedi’ or the old EU (‘Legends’) works set after it. This was a complex and nuanced character who both grew and yet didn’t change, and lost and gained. His very namesake, however, saw the most crucial character development in our old scruffy-looking Nerf Herder. Han ‘Solo’ was now a man with a family…and torn asunder by its collapse. Han indeed sacrificed himself in death, and in a way both suiting and advancing to his character, by defying the odds and any logic in boldly confronting his mass-murdering, hateful son. In Han’s most desperate, touching, and cocky, move, he died.
Kylo Ren also played on the expectations of a Star Wars villain in often masterful ways. His is a vulnerable ‘menace’ who hides behind a mask he doesn’t need to advance his newfound identity. His Force powers are unorthodox and unexpected. Otherwise, Kylo is vulnerable, weak, and conflicted. He is also a ‘meta’ figure, in that he is a parallel for the Westerner who zealously and inexplicably adopts militant Jihadism. His extreme rage is authentic and unpredictable, as opposed to Anakin’s hackneyed ‘anger’.
Leia was soundly underutilised, as were C-3PO and R2-D2. Once more, Chewbacca was not given his due from Leia, who did not greet him particularly warmly upon his return with Rey. It is hoped that they filmed scenes between the two characters for ‘The Last Jedi’, as there is now no chance for that in future after Carrie’s untimely demise.
Luke Skywalker and his family’s iconic lightsaber served as an archetype and plot device. Honestly, this was pretty novel…and, once more, ‘meta’ (embodying the reclaiming of the ‘old’ Star Wars).
In conclusion, ‘The Force Awakens’ was a severely challenged film, but one which nonetheless offered critical character and narrative developments and, in the case of Han, conclusion. At long last, Star Wars boasts skillful acting in all areas and respectability. Its dependence on the core narrative of the original Star Wars film, setting the tone for the new, revitalized franchise, and unfortunate immersion into some of the modern industry’s worst elements, will require its sequel to truly advance the new characters and their story to something of greater originality and interest.
I agree with much of this.
As for Phasma’s character, wouldn’t it have been great if she were the one to fight Finn at Maz’s castle instead of TR-8R? She was on the set and everything!
Thanks for the suggestions!
I forgot to mention that for this mockup I have only extracted the center channel of audio, so the audio transitions are very preliminary and for the final I would probably use the score to rebuild the transitions.
I still have some rather ambitious plans for adding Force visions to the interrogations, so that aspect will probably change. The shot of Kylo before Rey wakes up wasn’t intended as anything more than establishing him in the darkened room.
New mockup.
https://vimeo.com/214598035
Password: learning
One problem with this section of the film was how easily Rey learned the Jedi mind trick, so I’ve attempted to expand that section into two scenes. To do this, it became necessary to split the interrogation into two scenes as well, which I’m okay with since the interrogation was rather too long. It also gave me a chance to experiment with different lighting situations at different times.
The first session includes a few extra shots of Kylo in the darkness watching Rey, which give the scene a more creepy ‘creature in a mask’ vibe and contrasts with helmetless Kylo later on. The placement of the ‘forgive me’ scene implies that Rey is the cause of Kylo’s questioning, and it would be good to have him reference her to that effect. The second session shows a more aggressive form of interrogation, with a more combative Rey who is beginning to use her power.
Neverar and/or Ridley: do you guys have any plans to use DigMod’s (imo perfect) Rathtar scene in your edits?
I do plan to cut Finn’s capture by the Rathtar in much the same way as Digmod, as well as Bala-Tik’s dialogue about the droid and fugitives.
However, (cue mysterious music) I have other plans for Finn’s capture. 😉
This Trump tweet made me laugh.
Eventually, but at a later date so we can get started early, Mexico will be paying, in some form, for the badly needed border wall.
God bless Donald Trump.
I couldn’t believe it when he won.
My first time voting and I pick the winner!
Just awesome.
You do realize that voting is not the same as betting on horse races, don’t you?
I appreciate the ambition of this edit. Many of the cuts, especially in the first half, really work for me. I really like the removal of Finn firing on the Stormtroopers in the hangar, but I would have liked some of his levity to have remained in other places.
I like what you’re going for with the Kylo reveal, but there’s not enough footage of helmeted Kylo to make the Interrogation scene believable. The same with Han and Leia’s discussion about their son. I appreciate that Leia doesn’t talk about Snoke anymore (It was one of the most cringeworthy lines in the movie for me), but I don’t think the reveal can be pushed back any farther than The Abduction.
The ending also feels too abrupt. I don’t know how much of it is my expectation having watched the movie, but it just feels incomplete without the island.
All in all though, I’m very impressed by this edit even if I feel that it didn’t accomplish all of its (lofty) goals.
Sure it’s slightly more simple, but where’s the fun in that when you can have themed passwords?
There’s an awful lot of moisture in here.
See page 2.
Here’s a mockup of the Snoke scene and the battle leading up to it:
https://vimeo.com/214272131
Password: rough
I wanted to test the idea that Kylo would abandon the search for the droid even without knowing about the impending Resistance attack. Results are mixed. On the one hand, I like that the First Order began their retreat before the Resistance attacked, which shows that it wasn’t because of the strength of the Resistance but the decision of Kylo. On the other hand, I wish there were more shots of the First Order retreating. The extra Poe shots don’t work either.
I am thinking about deleting Bala-Tik’s dialogue about the droid entirely, and shifting the first Snoke scene to just after the Maz Castle battle.
This creates quite a few new meanings and interpretations.
First, the gangs don’t know about the droid, since that information would probably be secret to all but the First Order’s own spies. The Maz Castle spy is the first and only tip-off to the First Order about BB-8.
Second, the villains don’t make a pit stop at the Starkiller while they are supposedly tracking the Falcon. This keeps the change of location very simple, and visually introduces the Starkiller only when it becomes important to the 3rd act. If the deleted Leia scene happens directly after this, it would place strong emphasis on the Republic going into the final act of the film.
Third, it keeps Kylo’s identity a secret until Han’s reveal after the battle, and the Snoke scene becomes a follow-up to and confirmation of the reveal.
Fourth, it makes Snoke seem a bit more in control as he has presumably heard about and considered Kylo’s decision to take the girl instead of the droid. The later grumbling about the droid after the interrogation scene would be cut, as well as Hux’s finger-pointing. In this scene Hux even tries to take responsibility for the bungle, which gets shouted down. Oddly, Snoke doesn’t seem angry with Kylo for abandoning the droid, which leads me to…
Fifth, Snoke seems very concerned about the effect of Han Solo on Kylo Ren, and thinks that it may be too much of a test for him. One interpretation of this is that Snoke thinks that Kylo avoided gaining the droid to avoid facing his father, or even that Kylo was intentionally helping Han and the Resistance by giving up the droid. This is more than a hint that Kylo will be redeemed in the 3rd act, making his eventual decision all the more cruel. (It may be worth removing the lines about needing reinforcements at the battle in order to make his decision that much more questionable)
Sixth, and most importantly for Rey, the awakening that Snoke speaks of happens after Rey’s ‘call to adventure’ Force vision, leaving no doubt as to the source of the awakening.
I cleaned the audio for Rey’s Dream, now Luke is inaudible and there is the sound of the ocean:
JEDIT:
Version 5
Version 5 Audio
I know someone here posted an image from the twitter feed of the Last Jedi trailer composer, but I can’t find that anywhere. Does anyone know who composed that music?
Thanks!
Remeber though, the ambiguity of the Force is why we all love the Original Trilogy. I just assume that she learned it when she probed Ren’s mind. I also assume she was driven by the dark side, or heard Vader’s voice about giving into hatred to destroy Ren. I tried the overdub and really liked it, but it was too on the nose.
I look at it as she learned on the job. The very first force user learned the same way. If she is who I think she may be, it would make perfect sense.In short, I think saying or showing too much is not the way to go.
Just my 2¢
I would agree with this except that she uses the same type of line delivery that Obi-wan and Luke use in the OT when performing the Jedi Mind Trick™. In an ideal world she would have picked up this exact ability from Kylo and used it. However, if the dark Force vision works, it may change the feeling of the scene enough that it’s no longer an issue.
As for the Vader helmet on the base, I would be surprised if it ever made an appearance outside of this film, except perhaps as a background decoration in Kylo’s lair.
Sure, just put a credit at the end, but you might want to wait for SirRidley’s version in Restructured.
She has just invaded the mind of Kylo, and he knows how to get information from people. Perhaps if we heard his voice when she’s thinking about what to do: ‘I can take whatever I want’.
Also, I’ve been thinking about how to repurpose Kylo viewing the Starkiller beam, and the interrogation scene may be a good place. Since it’s only canon to show the personal visions of the main character, Rey would have to be the one viewing them. So to do this, Kylo’s prayer before the interrogation could cut right after ‘I will let nothing stand in our way’. Then, as the tables turn and Rey gains the upper hand in the interrogation, she sees the Starkiller shots and the Vader mask overlaid with the missing ‘grandfather’ dialogue. This would serve as a revelation to both Rey and the audience at the same time, which can only be a good thing for the story.
If she had heard of the Jedi mind trick somewhere, this scene would work well. It’s just that we don’t know what she does and does not know about the Jedi. I’ll think about this some more.