NFBisms

FreezingTNT2 said:

As I said, he redeemed his father and conquered the darkness, only to fall victim to it yet again? I mean, what was the point of him conquering the darkness in Return of the Jedi if he is going to fall victim to it yet again?

I mean, that’s the question isn’t it? The question his entire arc in TLJ is based on. Why did he fail, again? And what does that mean? It’s not undoing character development, it’s expanding upon it.

The answer the film provides reinforces another theme of ROTJ that everyone tends to look over. Vader realizes his previous choices don’t define his future ones. He can still do a good thing even if he feels it’s too late for him. But that can be true for good and evil. Luke’s choice to reject the dark side once didn’t mean he wouldn’t have to face that decision again down the line. Darth Vader dies in the OT before they can explore the nature of ongoing redemption, (because that’s what redemption should be) and that’s what makes this a relevant and fitting theme for Star Wars.

Life is an ongoing struggle and “hero” isn’t a job title you earn, it’s a part you play every day. And it’s hard to do. Remember, the danger of the dark side is that it’s quick and easy, and can look like the justified right thing to do. You don’t conquer it, because it’s choice. Not nature. Luke Skywalker the Legend only exists if Luke chooses to be.

This permeates every subplot of TLJ: Poe can’t coast on good intentions if it kills the people around him, Finn won’t help anything with fruitless sacrifice, Rey finds turning someone is more than just reaching out.

Because of how it fleshes out the themes of the OT, it’s a valuable lesson to teach, if there had to be more movies. Luke being the vessel for it makes it especially more poignant. I don’t think a lot of people have an issue with this theme itself, they just don’t like that Luke had to be the one to convey it.

But I can’t think of another character it would work nearly as well with.

After watching a cut last night, him talking about his Empire here doesn’t not track, I think.

Anakin’s politics are still his politics. I use some version of Hal’s political-focused structure after all. But in this edit Anakin views it more as a neccessary evil. His authoritarian proclivities come off as naive and/or blind in the theatrical, but by showing him tempering this side of himself in the first half of mine, I feel I’m able to convey a more nuanced relationship with those beliefs.

By killing Dooku of his own accord, it establishes that he himself believes Dooku was “too dangerous to be alive.” He regrets it, because he’s a Jedi. He believes in Palpatine when the Jedi don’t, but he tempers that because he’s a Jedi. He is upset with the Jedi for committing treason but he goes along with it, because he’s a Jedi. Because he’s a Jedi, he will act against his instinct. It’s his duty.

Theatrical!Anakin has every authoritarian preference manipulated into him by Palpatine, and doesn’t bother not acting out in front of the Jedi. His fall is a foregone conclusion.

It was almost an accident, but by trying to make him more likeable and heroic in the first half, I gave him more dimensions than his original character. You can’t fully remove what’s in the original film, but the restraint that is depicted when trying actually worked pretty well. Anakin is trying to be good, which makes him sympathetic, but when the Jedi Order show themselves to be hypocritcal, a disillusioned Anakin feels he can make a selfish choice for once.

Anakin’s visible excitement over ruling the galaxy and feelings that Padme would be too, are what was a bridge too far for me. He’s not supposed to be insane. But he can still believe the Empire is an efficient government while being cognizant of the horrible things required to secure it. When he starts talking about it to Obi-Wan, he’s justifying his choices in a way that is relevant to the Jedi/duty aspect of Anakin’s turn. Obi-Wan is explicitly a part of that subplot, where he had nothing to do with the Padme nightmares.

It’ll make sense when you see it I hope.

That’s fair. In the context of the rest of the edit though, there’s just nothing to suggest prior bad blood between Anakin and Obi-Wan. And since I’m not approaching Anakin’s fall from the angle that Anakin is blindly corrupted and villainous, I needed to convey that Anakin still sees Obi-Wan as a friend. Obviously Obi-Wan “turned” Padme against him, but I think it’s clear with the rest of the edit that Obi-Wan didn’t intend to. Anakin should be able to sense that.

Anakin in this edit hasn’t gone fully over to the dark side by this point. Sure, he’s killed a lot but he doesn’t like that he had to do it. He doesn’t feel like he’s the one who’s been betrayed - he’s fully aware that he’s the one betraying. He had hoped to hide this from Padme, and he could never look at Obi-Wan again.

But now that he’s confronted with consequence - a Padme who hates him - he doesn’t necessarily want to lose Obi-Wan too. Obi-Wan should have died. “Don’t you turn against me. Don’t lecture me. Don’t make me kill you.” Join me, just let me do this, get out of here or else.

“Don’t you turn against me” also gives Obi-Wan something to work with as reframed actually trying to help Anakin. Instead of Anakin’s anger and lust for power taking Padme away (as Obi-Wan responds to in the theatrical), they are the things that Obi-Wan says have turned against Anakin himself. Obi-Wan wants to convey that Anakin is a victim of his own selfish passions; he isn’t indicting Anakin as much as he is the toxic feelings that led him where he is now. He believes he can still make the right choice.

Anakin’s cognizant rejection of that olive branch is what will make him Vader. Padme thinks he’s a monster. It’s too late for him.

Darth Vader is a cold and in-control warlord. And a loyal servant of the Empire. He’s more hollow shell than vengeful maniac. I think the transition between Anakin and Vader is smoother without the in-between: the childlike, power-obssessed Proto-Vader we get in the theatrical.

Artan42 said:

NFBisms said:

As for Padme, I’ve replaced “Stop! stop! Come back! I love you!” with “I don’t know you anymore” to keep her consistent after she backs away… Although, yes now it feels a little like she is way less forgiving of Anakin and for less reason. You just have to remember mass murderer I guess, and through that lens she’d be in the right. Or any lens, really. But we’re all so familiar with her being inexplicably lovestruck with said mass murderer in the theatrical that it feels off.

I actually think it feels [i]less[/i] sudden now. With the reintegrated Rebellion scenes she’s already committed herself to doing what’s right over loyalty to the institution she’s served since she was 14 and to the man who introduced her to politics. She’s already seen the Republic go off the deep end in the War and now it looks like Palpatine has also betrayed her, that’s a lot of loss for a person and now Anakin has shown he’s clearly been with Palpatine since the beginning (or as far as she can see anyway). It actually gives her a chance to show some emotions of he own (namely anger and betrayal) rather than just existing in the orbit of Anakin.

It also helps remove the single worst scene of any SW film (and I include Jar-Jar reacting to the pink horses in TPM) which is the scene in AotC where she forgives him for wiping out an entire village and passes it off as ‘normal’ behaviour.

I actually agree, I just think the emotions don’t feel as high as they were when she was begging him. The desperate “I love you,” while incongruous with the “because of what you’ve done,” added a sense of spite to her betrayal that I liked. I like the idea that she would lie to lower his guard, but it just moved too fast for that to be conveyed as effectively. With “I don’t know you anymore,” it’s still just more Padme being sad and helpless, and her confession feels frightened out of her by Anakin as opposed to the stand she was taking before.

So it’s either:

1. Padme realizes Obi-Wan was right, but makes an attempt to lower Anakin’s guard by continuing to ask him back. However Obi-Wan appears, and she loses that advantage. When she admits to Anakin that Obi-Wan is to kill him, it reveals her true intentions. Lying changes her motivations to hostile. Obi-Wan’s appearance could be read as perhaps him stopping Padme from whatever she was going to do. Anakin chokes her because she has made herself an enemy.

2. Padme realizes Obi-Wan was right, gives up on Anakin. When Obi-Wan appears, it’s more like she’s so distraught at this point she would let Obi-Wan kill him. “Because of what you’ve done” he’d deserve it, but the agency I was trying to give her in the first place isn’t as present. Anakin here chokes her only because she’s given up on him and let him go.

I think I ultimately want to stick with #1.

Here’s the newest attempt, using #2 for now:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r8bjlJY2lK8Zd3y4GM_xBQmabkkndLio

A little test of Anakin attacking first. It almost works but I couldn’t get the steam over Obi-Wan quite right, and we don’t even see Obi-Wan ignite his lightsaber on the split second cut. It works if you just look at Anakin though lmao. I’ll keep trying. It’s close.

I think it’s as morally complicated as Empire, but that’s almost besides the point.

And I wasn’t who compared it to Empire first. xP

This is all just my opinion. A very nitpicky one at that. I like the show, and I’m sure it’ll get better, but I don’t really think it earns its hype right now. Believe it or not, I actually agree with everything you’re saying about Din, Cara, Greef, Herzog. But what I’m saying exactly is that the show leaves all of that as subtext 90% of the time. Stuff like that should be what the show is about. It’s why I actually like episodes 2 and 4 a lot, which seemed unpopular with people for being “filler.” They’re actually about the characters in it, have anything to portray about the world beyond the surface.

I think it’s morally confused more than anything. It’s only mature in concept, not execution. It’s a shallow kids version of the story you’ve outlined. That’s what I’m saying. He becomes good because Baby and he was once Baby. That’s the extent of the exploration this season. They didn’t explore anything more when they had ample opportunity to synthesize it with parallels to the young Calican, revisiting his old comrades, or in the action itself, etc.

Like not to get hypothetical, but maybe he could’ve seen all the different places his chosen path would have brought him, tragically put in the ground for his ambitions, or surrounded by terrible people he can’t identify with anymore (eps 5/6). This life of violence he basically worships leading him away from human connection he might have wanted (ep 4). None of that is actually in the show outside of me just pulling that analysis out of my ass just now. But imagine if that was what the episodes were rather than just homaging crime tropes. As it stands, Calican was dispatched coldly with no remorse from the storytelling, but the mercenaries all get to live for some reason. The Mando expresses nothing about any of this.

Cara is a fun interesting character, but her being a rebel is an easy way to make her sympathetic. Kuill/IG are the most interesting characters but even that has the element of “good because programming.”

It’s not a mature handling of what is an inherently mature premise is what I’m saying. It wants to stay as morally black/white as possible while still being an anti-hero narrative. You can’t have your cake and eat it too is where I’m at with it.

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see how the show “talks down” to anyone. It doesn’t include violence for the sake of violence, all the adult stuff in the show has been portrayed very tastefully.

I don’t think the magnitude of violence itself has anything to do with what I’m saying, really. I don’t mind it, and whether or not it’s done tastefully is besides the point. (it’s not violent imo) But think of it like this. It’s like if you made a crime movie for kids. What would that entail? The premise is inherently tied to, well, crime. You can sanitize the violence all you want but thematically it can’t be the same as a normal crime film. The Godfather but the family goes straight? The Mandalorian is at its best when it commits, which it doesn’t so that it can be “enjoyed by everyone.”

But I’m gonna stop now tho. Just remember, I’m not attacking the show! I like it! I wish it were better! It’s good! Not great!

ray_afraid said:

I just don’t see any of this perceived “pandering”.
The baby isn’t anymore pandering than the one in Lone Wolf & Cub.
It’s cute, sure. But babies are cute. So What?

I certainly don’t see this pulling any punches that Empire would’a thrown.
I don’t think that statement holds any water at all.

Guess I don’t feel that this was to overly badass or cutesy.

Also, totally rad BTS shots!

I actually don’t think it panders to children more than it panders to adults that would feel ashamed for liking things made for children. If that makes sense? But it clearly is made for a younger audience, they just put in stuff like door dismemberment to get “adults” into it.

To me it’s an illusion of the tone Empire hit.

Empire wasn’t mature because they lost and Luke lost a hand, it was a well written story about faith, sacrifice, and failure. Kids could enjoy it because it never crossed a line in regards to violence or sex, but they didn’t need to “get” everything that was happening on a thematic level, that makes it work as a great film.

The Mandalorian feels like it talks down to kids. And adults, for that matter. Perhaps it was just my expectations, but the reason to set a Star Wars show in this part of the galaxy would be putting us in the shoes of the scum and villainy of the galaxy. The OT is what it is because we follow plucky rebel heroes doing good. That morality doesn’t have to be consistent when we start following different characters. I mean, Rogue One didn’t.

For example, the Clone Wars and even Solo are able to depict dilemmas and nuanced characters that aren’t just Jedi or rebels. Ventress, Beckett, Boba, Bo-Katan, etc. But in Mando, bandits might as well be Putty Patrol. The mercenaries we meet in episode 6 are all unlikeable jackasses. Toro Calican is set up to be somewhat sympathetically over his head, but is coldly treated as “deserved to die” by the end of his episode. Everyone but Mando is bad, IG needs to be reprogrammed to be good, Carga is Lando he had no choice. The stories are simplistic and shallow in a way they don’t have to be considering what the show’s premise is.

It doesn’t feel like “for kids” in the sense that they shoehorn Jar Jars or cutesy droids, that’s not what I’m saying. It’s “for kids” because they handle subject matter the franchise has handled before with kid gloves, but through that demonstrate no faith in kids to appreciate more. It talks down equally to adults, as though we wouldn’t even give it a shot if it didn’t have an edge. It’s not a balance. It’s two clashing motivations for existing mashed together.

All of this say, I do like the show, but I think it’s one of the things that show Star Wars is a consistent brand as opposed to a universe I like.

StarkillerAG said:

I understand your point of view, but I don’t feel like The Mandalorian is too edgy, or too safe. Like the later seasons of Clone Wars, it’s a nice compromise between child-friendly and adult-friendly, safe and risky. I feel like that’s the route Star Wars should go in the future.

ray_afraid said:

I guess it’s kid-friendly? But I don’t remember ever feeling like they threw something in just for kids. I hate that $#*! & I was very much worried about it.
The tone feels very much like Empire to me. It’s for every age without pandering to any age.

StarkillerAG said:

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Star Wars is intended for all ages, and The Mandalorian really did a good job of allowing people of all ages to enjoy the show.

I can’t really explain this opinion too well but it feels different to me.

Empire didn’t pander to any age but this feels opposite. Like, they tried to pander to every age. Like they go halfway “for kids” and halfway “for adults.” It’s a show about a seedy criminal underworld but operates on very basic black/white morality. It tries to show the inherent goodness of our hero but also wants to make him a cold, ruthless badass. Baby Yoda but also, Bill Burr!

It’s how we get an entire episode seemingly endeared to the ambitions of a young hotshot bounty hunter, only for him to be quickly dispatched in such a weirdly dispassionate, cynical manner. But then how we get a mildly violent slasher-inspired “hunting for prey” scene next episode, only for every unsympathetic mercenary to be alive at the end. Together those are mixed messages. It goes back and forth between rule of cool and kid gloves.

And look, there could be an interesting discussion there, but any themes about the dichotomy inherent in all this is left only as subtext. There’s no real depth, in a way that feels like a symptom of the show being neutered from the start as something for a younger, less thoughtful audience.

It feels safe because there are new concepts and ideas here, but they just fold those back into the classical Star Wars archetypes. The Mandalorians as a violent warrior culture are treated as essentially just another honorable faction - with unique customs ofc, but - like the Jedi. These far reaches of the galaxy in disarray after a revolution, but we’re still seeing parts dominated by an evil Empire. The potential of humanizing the “simple men just trying to make their way in the universe” is forgone so that it can continue making all criminals just dishonorable scumbags; with the exception of our hero who is learning not to be (sounds familiar). I don’t care about making Star Wars “dark” - this isn’t about violence or anything - but they clearly use the interesting anti-heroism angles as a hook (esp. in the marketing), and cop out of exploring them.

If it was really like Empire, it wouldn’t pull its punches or simplify/ignore themes just because kids are in the audience. Granted, we lack the frame of reference for a “Star War” crime/western - the OT didn’t have a navigation of ambiguous morality and civilization to contend with. But it’s not like the PT dumbed down its own boring politics and trade disputes. Even if the original stories are your archetypal plucky heroes fighting evil bad guys, they existed in something far larger than that conflict. They brushed shoulders with all kinds of different exciting things that didn’t have to be the same genre/style if you were to go possibly into detail.

I guess that’s my issue with it. It still feels Star Wars-“branded” even when it posits to explore a side of the universe not connected substantially to the movies. The Clone Wars did bounty hunters and a criminal underworld with more nuance in a few one-off episodes alone. And that was for kids! The galaxy as it did when I was younger watching the OT just doesn’t feel as expansive or as full of possibility. It feels more obvious than ever that there’s stylistic/brand cap on the creativity of whatever Star Wars explores now.

I like the show, it’s certainly fun, but not in the way it is hyped up on reddit or across the internet.

I was only joking, no need to high road me lmao. I don’t actually believe most fans have “bad taste”, I just can’t deny that what seemingly more and more people want for the franchise is at odds with my own preferences.

The Mando was a pretty good show, but to me it’s not the “savior of Star Wars” that I’ve seen a lot of people call it. And when they point to shallow episodes like episode 6 as a reason for that, but call something like episode 2 meh, it’s easy for me to slip into judging other’s preferences because if anything I would think the opposite. People love their badass action and towing the line between being a kids show and not, but that’s not enough for me personally.

Give me jawas, weird eggs, genre pastiche, worldbuilding, and real feeling people over headshots and borrowing the tones of “darker” things. I would have felt the opposite way once - when I was 13. That sounds pretentious but The Mando only pleases everyone by being so safe. It has potential to be so much better.

But I also rewatched Cowboy Bebop before this came out so my perspective may be skewed a little.

I actively despised episode 6, but it seems to be a pretty popular episode of the show which shows that a lot of SW fans just have bad taste imo

Yeah, I’m running into some of the same concerns myself. Some of them I can look past (Obi-Wan and Padme having different reasons for being there) but others like Anakin immediately talking about an Empire are a little more iffy.

The way I’m justifying it right now is that Anakin’s lines afterwards seem to be trying to shut down, or are not necessarily addressing anything Obi-Wan is saying. He’s willfully rejecting reason to become stronger in the dark side. It’s not gloating so much as it’s him latching onto any reason to continue down this path. Again, Anakin feels he’s crossed a point of no return. He can’t go back now, and all this suffering can’t have been for nothing. If not Padme, what did he do everything for? Well, he still has this Empire. He doesn’t necessarily believe in all of this, and his silence + non-responses can convey that. Maybe provoking Obi-Wan makes this choice easier too. It’s also why I’m being a little resistant to get rid of “I did what I had to”, because it’s one of the only things that can help that idea get across.

As for Padme, I’ve replaced “Stop! stop! Come back! I love you!” with “I don’t know you anymore” to keep her consistent after she backs away… Although, yes now it feels a little like she is way less forgiving of Anakin and for less reason. You just have to remember mass murderer I guess, and through that lens she’d be in the right. Or any lens, really. But we’re all so familiar with her being inexplicably lovestruck with said mass murderer in the theatrical that it feels off.

Here’s a newer pass:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P97bR4caigVEJ6Ph_dVRS7qTznH_FvEM/view?usp=sharing

Idk why but the “you werent there” was pitched up on the previous two passes, bringing it back down in this one fits better and to a point that I’m okay with. I’m working on a way to make Anakin attack first, but VFX isn’t my strongest suit

Re: season 7 concerns, I actually kept “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi” where it is in the theatrical version; I removed it from the deleted scene that uses the same line. As for “Great care we must take” I’ll see what I can do about it.

For the most part, I don’t think it contradicts the chronology of the original too much. Besides, my approach to editing Hayden to be more like Lanter isn’t really in adhering to TCW like gospel, but rather re-introducing him as the same character. You’re never going to get the same mannerisms or overall vibe/demeanor between the two men, but you have to be able to believe that these two interpretations occupy the same space and role within the world. It’s more than removing something Lanter’s Anakin wouldn’t say, it’s editing characters to treat Hayden like Lanter’s Anakin, and giving him things to say and do that Lanter might’ve. The adjusted chronology is a way to establish Hayden in that same role, where the theatrical builds off of Attack of the Clones. Think of it as establishing the character to someone who had never seen TCW, and how they would get who that Anakin was without having seen it themselves. If we see do see the same things again in TCW, it’s retreading for an audience unfamiliar with TCW.

And honestly as we get towards the finale of the edit, it becomes more about Anakin as Vader. Leaning into the “It’s too late for me” thread from ROTJ, giving him more remorse and self-awareness. His good intentions crossing a perceived point of no return, as opposed to corruption and power lust. I’ve always loved Vader’s reframing of “You don’t know the power of the dark side” and it’s a relationship with the dark side that I wanted to explore here. That TCW aligns with what Vader describes about Obi-Wan and vice versa is a bonus.

Speaking of which, here’s my take on the lead-up to Mustafar:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1swtkqqDU6pPobxU0fOQVaklmo7sDvD5v/view?usp=sharing

It’s a bit of a switcheroo from the theatrical as far as Obi-Wan and Padme go. Padme admits to bringing Obi-Wan to kill Anakin later obviously, but I think Obi-Wan here doesn’t come off as someone who’s trying to kill anyone. He doesn’t get a mission from Yoda to take out Anakin, and by moving his “Anakin is the father” to before he sits down, it conveys he wants to help him. I mean, that’s not something you say as a reason for someone to bring you to someone you want to kill.

“I’m sorry I’m going to kill your baby daddy” vs “We have to find him because he’s your child’s father.”

…

For the Mustafar scene itself, I think Obi-Wan being less angry with Anakin at this juncture is essential to the arc. He thinks he can bring him back, and only fights as “what he must.” When he finally forsakes Anakin by the end of an emotional fight, that is truly when Vader is born. I realize the rearrangement of lines may be jarring to those so familiar with the original film, but this is supposed to be a different thing. I really want to get it feeling as natural as possible. I’m juggling with like three different shifted characters motivations so it can be difficult but I think I’m getting close-ish? Do you think it’d be impossible for it to ever work?

Here’s another try at the Mustafar scene using snooker’s new clip and a few audio adjustments/line changes:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C4MQQtYfCKoR4zNnwuvyJeT11dCBBvKR/view?usp=sharing

Well, our bodies are made up of blood not olive oil. I’m only joking though, everyone has their preferences and I get the appeal of that particular look.

I hope the cutlist addressed why I’m going in a different direction, then. I do really like your idea with Padme and the rebellion, it just doesn’t fit with my edit. But I will forever lament that we never got that deleted Obi-Wan/Padme scene your idea implies happened.

As far as using outside audio sources, I’ve decided to go a lot more conservative about it and have already been removing some extraneous ones. Just-because-I-can-doesn’t-mean, and all that. I think the video game lines are more than likely going but I’m going to try to make them work a little bit longer. Maybe post some more tests soon. I’ve gotten used to them myself but if it’s really going to break the edit for a lot of people, it’s best to let it go.

…

I guess to sum up who exactly this cut’s Anakin is and what motivates him, I’ll compare and contrast to the theatrical, and Hal’s, whose edit inspired me in the first place.

Theatrical: Anakin begins having nightmares, which exacerbates his frustrations in his goals to become more powerful. The Jedi are blocking his progress through what a paternal Palpatine is able to convince him is their inherent mistrust and jealousy of him. The dark side has the power and freedom he craves. He wants to save Padme but when he begins down that path, he cannot stop himself from wanting more power, seeing enemies in those who would stop him.

Hal: Anakin’s political allegiance to Palpatine puts him at odds with the Jedi Council. He believes in Palpatine and the perceived benefits of a government with “less deliberating,” even before he has a nightmare incentivizing frustration with the Jedi. When the council not only rejects what he feels he is entitled to, but also ask him to spy on Palpatine, he begins to think that the Jedi are truly planning to overthrow the Republic. The dark side seems the only logical choice for him to make, as the Jedi are his enemies and it can save Padme.

New Canon Cut: Anakin disapproves of the treason and dishonesty that the council is seemingly so comfortable carrying out. While he agrees with the Jedi about the danger of Palpatine, he is willing to give Palpatine the benefit of the doubt as his friend, having faith he will do the right thing. But Anakin from that median point begins to understand how everyone is playing each other (including Palpatine), and how the Jedi and Sith may be more alike than the Jedi would admit. Burned by both the chancellor and the Jedi, Padme’s foreseen death and the promise of stopping it become the determining factor in his final allegiance. The conflict itself stops mattering more than what saves his family. He knows he chose evil, but the ends justify the means.

Anakin’s preferences for control are in all interpretations, but they manifest themselves differently in each. In the theatrical its basis is on powerlust. In Hal’s it’s in his political ideology. In mine it’s in selfishness. Don’t get me wrong, there’s inherently elements of all of those in each other, but the magic of editing is how you can shift which becomes primary.

snooker that’s really awesome, I’d love to be able to use it for this! I’m surprised no one has really tried something like this for Padme yet, her lack of agency in RotS is generally accepted as one of its biggest issues. This subtle thing goes a pretty long way in giving it back.

Here’s a list of changes:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZUZSjG8QYeL7foDqdGZBMv0Otmc-40WAd1lCK2CCj5M/edit?usp=sharing

I’ll try to respond to everyone, especially you Rogue, but for now that should give people a clearer idea of what I’m going for.

In light of the new trailer for season 7 of TCW, I’ve revisited this and have a new version coming out soon!

I’ve honestly re-added a lot of stuff back in but the structure remains largely the same as before. Inspired by Hal’s in that Anakin’s political motivations come before any nightmares he has of Padme. That said, in this new version I diverge halfway through to make those nightmares his primary motivations towards the end.

Rewatching my old cut I made Anakin almost too sympathetic and likeable in the first half, that the political motives honestly came off as a weaker excuse for his turn. The original “deal with the devil” is emphasized a bit more now. Anakin’s politics are still his politics but I’ve made him more remorseful and aware. It’s impressive what removing/rearranging shots can do in reconfiguring his state of mind.

Anakin is conflicted between Palpatine and the Jedi of course, but in the theatrical ROTS it never feels like he’s actually on the Jedi’s side after he has that nightmare of Padme. In Hal’s, it just feels like he’s on Palpatine’s side the entire time. Caught in the middle, but he has no love for the Jedi outside of maybe Obi-Wan. My cut was different in that it placed Anakin dominantly in the Jedi camp, and it never really seemed like Palpatine had successfully turned him against the council. While Hal’s makes his “fall” track better from beginning to end, using his version of the plot coming together just makes my take on Anakin’s turn almost nonsensical. I think I just coasted on the idea that the prequels were bad and Hal already edited it this way, so I couldn’t get any better than that for my version - but I’ve found that I can. (better for what I’m going for)

In the theatrical version, in his conflicted power hungry state, he becomes lost and blind to the truth to the point he makes the wrong decision. In my edit, Anakin actually gains clarity. Rather than Anakin being blinded by his anger at the council and clouded by his fears for Padme - he becomes fully cognizant of everything in play but makes his decision in spite of that. He chooses Padme over what he knows is right, not that he thinks it’s right to do.

It’s become a somewhat radical edit as no scene has been untampered with to the point that most conversations have a different context or meaning than originally intended.

New changelist coming soon.

Here’s something I was playing around with the other day:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pbmKrj39mpGemzRYCdkpZHvQHDUgeteg/view?usp=sharing

I’ve shifted the motivations of everyone involved in that scene. Anakin isn’t crazed and proudly evil, nor is he excited about his prospects as a galaxy-ruler. He’s remorseful but also trying to justify his actions to Padme and Obi-Wan. He’s frustrated that she doesn’t want to accept that he’s doing it for her.

Theatrical!Padme is done dirty in this movie and the re-insertion of the deleted scenes only mitigates that section of the film. By the end she still doesn’t have a role to play but tragic wife almost stupidly in love with Anakin. Here - and this works to the benefit of both Anakin and Padme - she actually provokes Anakin into choking her. He doesn’t just do it out of paranoia. It’s not quite the same as the supposed original idea where she stabs him, but it’s close enough with what we have. Basically “Yes! I did bring him here to kill you!” Obi-Wan then takes on the role of asking Anakin to come back to the light.

Octorox said:
I will also recommend the Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra animated series. They are ostensibly kids shows but deal with surprisingly mature themes, and they take some of the eastern philosophy stuff baked into Star Wars and take it much further. There’s a character redemption arc in there that some people feel is what Kylo Ren should have been. Once again, don’t bother with the film adaptation.

This, but you could probably skip Legend of Korra tbh.

fun fact: “NFB” comes from NextFireBender as my username from forums when I was like 12. I just got so used to be being “NFB” I never let go of the acronym.

There’s a scene literally from Revenge of the Sith in there! Mace saying “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi” in the war room happens like ten minutes before he goes off to arrest Palpatine. Also Padme is visibly pregnant and Anakin doesn’t find out until after Dooku is dead.

I was under the impression the last we would see of most of the characters is just prior to the Battle of Coruscant, so this is cool.

I’m re-configuring this thread, because my new edit of AOTC shares plenty of the same ideas and I don’t want to have two AOTC edit threads.

I want to preface this thread by saying: This AOTC edit is so not going to be everyone’s thing.

This was just something I put together over the holidays for my little cousin, who absolutely loves Star Wars, but who I know doesn’t have the attention span for Attack of the Clones. To be frank, I don’t think I do either.

He loved Rise of Skywalker - which I didn’t - but that inspired me to think about how the prequels, in the context of how disappointing the Sequel Trilogy was to me, had some merit. Kind of. Its problems are obvious and have been talked about for nearly two decades at this point, but no edit has actually made them fun to watch if you weren’t already trying to like them. From the earlier edits to Hal’s edits, the biggest thing in many prequel edits is making them more coherent. Make them make sense, less goofy/cringy, and just less excruciating to watch.

In light of Rise of Skywalker: What if I made Attack of the Clones, just, dumber?

What I mean by that is - the politics and context, what if I just threw it out? TROS and the ST at large didn’t care and the movies were fun! When it wasn’t using pure nostalgia, the ST (save for TLJ) relied on the likeable characters going on a fun galaxy adventure thing. And AOTC has some interesting, if not dated, fun setpieces. The speeder chase through Coruscant, rain brawl, asteroid field dogfight, Geonosis arena, the battle… I remember fastforwarding to those parts on DVD when I was like 10, but I couldn’t sit through all the between. When I say dumb, I mean it in a fun way.

Making this for my cousin was a fun experiment in ST-ing/modern blockbuster-ifying AOTC. Just like in the ST, any set-up for the next movie doesn’t matter. Any context for the galaxy or how things work is only just mentioned. It follows Padme/Anakin/Obi-Wan almost from beginning to end, minimizing any cutaways to Mace, Yoda, or the Senate. There are virtually no scenes in the Jedi Council or Senate Hall.

Now, that sounds easy, but it was more than just excising scenes. My cousin is a smart kid, and it takes more than just cool sci-fi shit to keep him entertained. The story and characters still have to make sense in the broadest of ways, even if the pacing is much quicker and more exciting.

And a big challenge was in how I don’t have access to the charisma TROS was working with to take the audience from beginning to end. Making the characters likeable and seemingly charismatic enough to carry an otherwise empty film was the biggest goal. (This is where my NCC philosophies came into play).

CUTS AND CHANGES:

1. New crawl that tries its damnedest to make this Seperatist movement and voting business sound exciting. Removed any mentions of Count Dooku because who cares. We’ll meet him when we meet him. He’s the bad guy!
2. Cut the misdirect from inside Padme’s ship.
3. Maybe just one explosion from the ship ambush.
4. Cut political discussion/recap of crawl between Jedi and Chancellor from scene in Palpatine’s office, it jumps straight into the Senators coming in after Palpatine ends a vague conversation with Yoda.
5. Padme now warmly chuckles at Yoda’s warm and compassionate greeting to her, instead of ignoring it for business. Weird to introduce one of your main protagonist’s in such a cold, stand-offish way btw.
6. Everything about disgruntled spice miners or Count Dooku or who he is, is cut, Palpatine jumps straight into suggesting protection in light of the previous scene. Which is also a good way to take Padme from the mood Yoda might’ve put her in a few seconds ago.
7. Transition straight from Palpatine saying “Master Kenobi” to the introductory elevator scene.
8. Anakin and Obi-Wan friendly banter is made friendlier, I hope.
9. Retained Jar Jar’s enthusiastic greeting because kids like weird aliens, and I’ll take any warmth in such a dry movie.
10. Cut any “more beautiful, for a senator” awkwardness
11. Removed Obi-Wan uncomfortably scolding Anakin in front of everyone. He just corrects Anakin.
12. Padme’s “perhaps merely your presence will reveal more…” is last word before cutting to Zam and Jango. We don’t need to see her walk all the way to the end of the damn room to retire for the night, and there’s no conversation afterwards that matters. It’s also good to imply that they talked a little more than just business afterwards.
13. Some dialogue trims to Zam/Jango interactions.
14. Anakin isn’t a creep at all in this. He doesn’t tell Obi-Wan he wants to dream about her, no implication that he wanted to watch her sleep.
15. Him and Obi-Wan’s interactions here come off as more of a caring relationship. Obi-Wan reassures Anakin of his anxieties and that his dreams will pass, and it doesn’t lead into a political debate. No politics here! (Even if they are pretty interesting context for Star Wars to tackle.)
16. Doesn’t mean Anakin is less of a reckless swashbuckler. I wanted to convey the joy and fun Anakin has in being this hero. Replaced some of his authoritative lines with more laid back Hayden ones, and a few joyous “WOOHOOs” and chuckling as he pilots the speeder in the chase. Obi-Wan is a little exasperated but not completely annoyed with him. He doesn’t lecture or scold him, just tells him to slow down and think a bit. Especially since Anakin doesn’t lose his saber here.
17. I added some cantina-ish music to the club scene to liven up the feel. There really is no music here in the original for whatever reason. It’s a bar in Star Wars and there’s like nothing to work with! Even the aliens are just people with antenna headbands. Oh well.
18. Anakin doesn’t angrily interrogate Zam, in fact with the line I did leave in from his questioning, it comes off as more of a comforting thing. “You can tell us” to a dying bounty hunter who was just doing their job.
19. I don’t remember which edit this originates from, but the “Kamino system” edit from Octorox/Hal’s is here.
20. At this point, I don’t think we’re 20 minutes into the film, so that all works as an opening.
21. Removed the Jedi Council meeting. No politics! Aside from it contextualizing the world a bit, there’s not a lot that’s needed to be known about what the pair do for the rest of the film. Obi-Wan goes straight into investigating, Anakin escorts Padme out of the capital. We don’t need to see them ordered to do that, and I think the idea that they can work independently of the council’s influence makes them stronger characters. They have autonomy and they decided to do this themselves! That Master and Apprentice came up with this plan between each other also strengthens their relationship. Especially when earlier, Obi-Wan didn’t necessarily outright refute Anakin’s investigation mandate like in the original.
22. Because of the previous, no Anakin/Palpatine scene. Because Revenge of the Sith doesn’t matter, there’s no point in slowing things down for payoff that only comes in another movie! Who’s Snoke? Not my problem!
23. So straight off Zam’s murder, Obi-Wan’s investigation starts with the youngling scene but trimmed. Obi-Wan can’t find the Kamino system Zam just mentioned, Yoda/younglings helps, and the missing archive mystery is referenced, but not as deeply foreshadowing anything since Dooku is just going to show up and we’re just going to have to deal. (I’m sorry but that library scene is bad. Not using it. At least here, the kids are cute and Yoda is endearing as fuck. I think the “investigation with the help of eclectic allies” trope is also inherently a little more exciting than a man going to a library, too.)
24. Padme packing her bags is the next scene. This is where you can essentially figure out what Anakin and Obi’s plan is, without the previously cut scenes.
25. Cut all of Anakin’s petulance and creepiness here.
26. This leads us to Padme and Anakin’s departure as refugees. Obi-Wan doesn’t express his concerns to Anakin’s face, he just warmly says “May the force be with you” to Anakin, demonstrating a less toxic relationship. He trusts Anakin enough.
27. Wipe to DEX’S DINER, baby. That’s right. I don’t use all of the scene, because it is mostly bad, but again, it’s that “investigation with the help of eclectic allies” trope. Obi-Wan’s got contacts and old friends! He’s a fun guy with interesting stories to tell! And I mean, this movie is so so dry, a fun weird alien in a 50’s diner gives it much needed Star Wars-esque life. And the edit can afford it at this pace. Hell, it needs it. Anyway, the scene leads us from Dex’s ominous “how big your pocketbook is” straight into Obi-Wan landing on Kamino. I thought that would be an exciting transition.
28. Obi-Wan meets with the prime minister of Kamino. Removed mentions of Sifo-Dyas because it is genuinely confusing and unanswered. Obi-Wan is edited to be more visibly confused but intrigued throughout the conversation. The way it’s played in the original, it’s kind of hard to tell that Obi-Wan is bullshitting so I just minimized that aspect of it. Another somewhat intriguing end note, it ends on “This army is for the Republic.” Less than 30 minutes in and the plot has progressed quite quickly.
29. Wipe to Anakin and Padme discussing love and compassion on the transport, and straight into their landing on Naboo. This is where I allowed the film to breath a bit, because I think we still need to buy Anakin and Padme’s relationship. I inserted the extended versions of them walking through Naboo for the first time where they open up to each other like real human beings. Besides, Obi-Wan’s plot is moving every other scene, it’s okay to have the slower character development sandwiched in between, when it pays off later. It’s not like they’re that long or boring either.
30. Padme meeting with the Queen is trimmed a bit to remove any specifics of the politics. No throwing out of random names of different factions we don’t know anything about. Just a broad reminder of what Padme is actually trying to accomplish, and we’re out. No Anakin/Padme bickering.
31. Obi-Wan is introduced to the Clone Army and I mostly kept it all in. I think I removed Obi-Wan asking to meet Jango because they won’t really talk to each other in this edit.
32. Anakin and Padme meet the parents deleted scene. It’s pretty short and contextualizes their relationship a bit more. I tried to make Anakin actually charm the family a bit with some added Hayden lines and chuckles from them. I removed the uncomfortable turns the conversation takes.
33. Obi-Wan is now about to brief Mace and Yoda, and leave Kamino. I cut the Jango/Obi-Wan having a conversation scene because it doesn’t do anything but pose more questions for the audience. And the mental game is like nonexistent but they’re acting like there is one? It’s just unnecessary especially for the purposes of this edit. We’ve got to get to the action, man!
34. Which is what we do. After briefing Yoda and Mace, Obi-Wan and Jango have their little battle in the rain. This is the first time they’re coming face to face. You’ll find I didn’t cut a lot of the action or slapstick.
35. Anakin/Padme at the waterfall, cutting Anakin’s fascism, which leads us into a montage of sorts where they fall in love. Aggressive negotiations, swimming entire damn lakes, and even sand can be heard over “Anakin’s Dream” from the ROTS score. But Anakin and Padme actually don’t kiss! Padme pulls away at the last second. One of my favorite scenes in this entire movie is them kissing on the chariot going into the arena. Wouldn’t it be even better if that’s the first time they kiss onscreen? The montage ends with Anakin and Padme rolling around in the meadow after he faked her out with the giant ballsac creatures.
36. Jango v. Obi-Wan asteroid dogfight here! Those sound effects rule! Although, it cuts to the next scene before we can see Obi-Wan’s fighter behind the asteroid. We see Jango’s ship land on Geonosis as the closer.
37. From black, Anakin wakes up from this dream he has, and then tells Padme they’re going to see his mom.
38. Obi-Wan is then revealed to be alive and lands on Geonosis, finding the factory.
39. Wipe to Anakin and Padme landing on Tatooine. They talk to Watto. Some trims to make Anakin less angry.
40. Cut to Obi-Wan eavesdropping on COUNT DOOKU and OTHERS. I let all the factions talk about themselves and what they’re doing at this point as a quick way to wrap up whatever mystery was still being had from Obi-Wan’s subplot. Audience, meet bad guys. Bad guys, audience.
41. Anakin and Padme are now at the Lars Homestead. They reunite with 3PO, (made Anakin slightly happier to see him) meet the step-family and then we cut to Obi-Wan trying to contact Anakin from Geonosis to Naboo. R2 picks up the message, but we have to get back to whatever happened to Shmi! Cliegg tells Anakin what happened with the Tuskens, but Anakin doesn’t go out to find her.
42. I placed Anakin sulking in the workshop/garage here. In the original this happens post-Tusken massacre, but I edited it to not reference any of that. Anakin is just sad and angry that his mom is probably dead. (You’ll see what I do with the Tusken massacre). It’s now just a quiet, melancholy scene. Not sinister. I also like the idea that Anakin doesn’t just immediately and coldly fuck off from these people to find his mom. I think there’s something to be said about how he chooses to stay with these people despite not having to, that might make it work with what we know about Anakin/Lars family in the Original Trilogy.
43. Shmi’s “funeral” is placed here, although I suppose they don’t have the body yet. Anakin, like the Larses, assumes Shmi is dead. I cut Cliegg’s eulogy because who??? R2 comes out with the message and…
44. Cut to Obi-Wan’s message to the council and Anakin on “Does that mean anything to you?” from 3PO.
45. Mace then tells Anakin to stay where he is. However, instead of Anakin actually trying to follow those orders and arguing with Padme about it, in this edit Anakin is actually going to go try to save Obi-Wan himself. He tells Padme to stay with the Lars family because they’re good people (using dialogue from when he was going to find the Tusken camp) but she decides she’s going to go and that’s the end of that. They leave. I don’t get why Anakin was so adamant about following orders and forsaking Obi-Wan in the original, so I changed it. Less unnecessary drama.
46. [Vague] politics scene 1 of 3: Palpatine and his inner circle have a brief discussion about what to do, Jar Jar has an idea.
47. Dooku and Obi-Wan have a face to face and this is where we get exposition for who Dooku is. First time Dooku is mentioned or addressed by name at all, tbh. Better to have a face to the name rather than vice versa for something like this I think. I don’t actually know what we lose by having it be this way, and without Sifo-Dyas it resolves a mystery.
48. Wipe to Padme, Anakin, R2, and 3PO in the factory, baby! That’s right! It’s here. As a dominantly action-focused film, I left it in. Closest thing to classic Star Wars adventure and excitement in the prequels is 3PO and R2 fucking around.
49. I more or less kept the rest of the film the same until the ending, to be honest. Dumb things like “Around the perimeter” are removed, but for the most part - even 3PO’s nonsense - is kept in. I’ve come to find that campy stuff charming and fitting for Star Wars, especially when it would be so so dry otherwise. And I made this for a kid so…
50. When Padme falls out of the gunship, I made Obi-Wan less of a dick about Anakin wanting to save her. He basically just says “I need you!” and “WWPD?” and Anakin agrees to do his duty, which I hope pays off a bit later.
51. Anakin v. Dooku now doesn’t look like a dance.
52. Personal preference to have a non-lightsaber wielding Yoda, but we can see about re-adding it if it works for something that aims to be kind of dumb.
53. Instead of Anakin/Padme’s marriage, it cuts back to the Lars Homstead, where it’s implied Amidala/Skywalker returned. He’s going to find his mom. It’s a bit of an epilogue and might feel too long but the last thing we see in the movie before the wipe to credits is Anakin’s lightsaber tearing into the screen. Presumably a Tusken. This accomplishes a few things. Anakin throughout this edit has like almost no darkness in him. Well, here it is! Some of that Darth Vader foreshadowing, but in like a really heavy-handed Marvel-esque way. “Oooohhh you excited for the next one? Darth Vader~~” But more than that, the theme of duty vs his passions leading Anakin down this path is stronger when the events of the film prevented him from saving his mom on time. The same thing is in the original, but it might land more after it becoming text via Obi-Wan/Anakin on the gunship, and him literally leaving Tatooine to do something else. Idk. I also like the further, somewhat OT-consistent Skywalker/Lars connection him returning implies.

Oh, and there’s a color grade to make it look less sterile and more filmic, because why not.

So I should have some workprint tomorrow. But I really only wanted to share it because I do have some radical/new ideas in here that I would want to put out there for the community in editing AOTC. They don’t just have to work in the context of an edit aping JJ. Feedback would be appreciated and I’d love to discuss any other ways I could turn AOTC into something actually fun and stupid.

liamnotneeson said:

MalàStrana said:

Hal 9000 said:

I love Rey’s hair during her conversation with Kylo after they fight off the praetorian guards and the tug of war for the saber.

Best action scene of the ST. Great looking composition. Nice choregraphy. Might even be the best moment of the ST, where RJ was turning the tide… too bad the following half hour was kinda regressing after 2 hours of boldness.

If by “boldness” you mean RJ promoting the whole “no good, no bad, no Sith, no Jedi, just Force” business, I’m glad the last half hour regressed–a good-evil dichotomy is what Star wars is built on. I think it should have been more explicitly rejected and done better.

I don’t buy that Star Wars is only a black and white, good-bad dichotomy, when Darth Vader has been one of the most driving forces in the franchise since 1980. It’s always been about choosing to do good over bad, but never at the expense of exploring how difficult it can be to do that. Or at least how easy it is to fall into doing otherwise. Luke has to reject darkness throughout the trilogy and at a pivotal moment in ROTJ, and by that same token Vader realizes that he can still choose - that his ability to still do good isn’t as damned as he is. It’s not about good and bad people, it’s about choice.

TLJ says the exact same thing but expands upon those themes. That that struggle between good and bad is lifelong and eternal. That triumphing one moment in life doesn’t mean you won’t have to keep choosing over and over again. The line will only get more and more blurred, and it will only get easier to choose the dark. But you must continue. Every day. Being a hero isn’t a natural state of being. Nothing is. Poe can’t coast off good intentions, Finn can’t just be neutral, Luke can’t escape those choices.

If Darth Vader in ESB/ROTJ was about how being evil isn’t a state of being, then TLJ was a natural extension of that. Heroism, like darkness, come from choices not being.

What is the ethos of TLJ to you, just curious?

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t see how Rey overcoming family dark side baggage is any different than Luke doing the same. Especially redundant because that’s part of the reason why we are to believe that Ben is Kylo (the Vader in him).

Rey Nobody is compelling because she is forced to determine her own path. It’s uncharted territory which is what makes it so interesting. Kylo/Ben is a compelling character because he has always struggled with the pull between the light and dark. Vader was an inherently different character because he was pure evil before his son managed to pull him back. There were a number of different ways they could have taken either of their stories (and how they’re intertwined) but the result they came up with is purely unimaginative, plain and simple. There is more to characters, their journeys, and their choices than just what “team” they’re on.

The idea of her being Nobody is compelling but does it make for a good movie? If I play out that scenario to it’s conclusion what do we have? She decides to be good or evil based on…what exactly? With a natural proclivity to be evil supposedly I see it as more heroic or meaningful that she decides to kill Palpartine…now, if she decides to be evil without that…now that would be interesting.

It’s a compelling idea and, from where I’m standing, it made for two good movies so far, I’d say it could last at least one more (if not more).

To me it’s so lazy to define a character simply based on who they’re related to. It’s much more interesting if she’s forced to go the path on her own. She struggles with both the light and the dark because everybody does, because everybody has the potential for both good and bad. And maybe I was crazy for thinking that they could have made a storyline where she comes to realize that learning to reconcile the light and the dark is healthy, and that trying to ignore and suppress the darkness can lead to the darkness taking over when you don’t expect it.

What I loved so much about the end of The Last Jedi was it put her in a place where she was forced to carry on the legacy of the Jedi by herself. So much of the last two films were about legacy, and with the end of the last film specifically being about how the legend of Luke is spreading, how does Rey help to continue that narrative and preserve that legacy, while crafting a legacy of her own? As much as I like that Leia ended up being her master, it’s a much more interesting storyline to have her try to learn the ways of the Jedi without any lifeline. That was what they were setting up, that it was on her now, and that because she didn’t have formal Jedi training she would be wide open to discovering new things, to become that new, better source of light that Luke had wanted (and because she wouldn’t have a teacher it be much easier for her to stray to the dark).

Why couldn’t we have seen her trying to build her new order? Why did it have to mirror the story of ROTJ, where she’s stuck trying to get over her dark side lineage and doesn’t rebuild the order until offscreen, after the film? Why couldn’t she have been trying to train Finn? Couldn’t that have been an interesting story for both of them? Why couldn’t her goal this film be to find a way to defeat the bad guys using love not hate? Why did they have to resolve her story in the laziest way possible?

I like your ideas and I also like Rey being a nobody but they had one movie to resolve it. Your post cannot be done properly with one movie. With one movie you need something to play against/fight against that is tangible.

I honestly think they should have stuck with Snoke instead of bringing Palpatine back but imo he just represents the dark side of the force…it could have been anything but it had to be a thing, not a character/personality stuggle within Rey.

Disagree. There’s a lot of ways it could have been handled, my post is just elucidating some of the ways (not necessarily saying they all had to be done, just giving options). I don’t think bringing back Palpatine was a necessity, but even sticking with the narrative JJ and Terrio came up with, you could have easily kept it Rey nobody. Palpatine saw Rey’s future and how powerful she would become, and wanted her killed, but her parents died protecting her. Rey learns this and wants to kill Palpatine as revenge for killing her parents and robbing her of a family. But actually, Rey learns that revenge is not a way to live and that she already has a family that loves her. There you go, easy.

I don’t think I would want to watch Rey struggle with her internal temptations without a protagonist to play against.

I assume you mean antagonist, but now that you mention it I would have actually really liked that. Doubling down on the characters and the themes, as opposed to conjuring up a new plot with a new threat with new goals, etc. sounds 10x more interesting than what we got. Rey forging her own future with the Force, Ben grappling with having everything he wanted at the cost of his soul, Poe stepping up as a responsible leader, etc.

A lower key, character-driven conclusion that follows up on TLJ’s themes would justify the sequel trilogy more imo. As it ended up being, the ST is just a new (barely) story with new characters. In a lot of ways the same story, just again. Why should we care? Because new and exciting? No, it needed to be more than that. If it could have doubled down on being about the generational fallout of the OT as legend, as TLJ tried to do, the ST could stand neatly in the saga as something of an epilogue to the first 6.

It didn’t need to try to outdo ROTJ, be a bigger, more bombastic, cumulative finale. I would have been really interested to see a more spiritual closing. And of course there’d still be action and thrills, but it wouldn’t need to be the point of tension or climax.

Valheru_84 said:

NFBisms said:

I just don’t get it? Like, even if you didn’t like TLJ, it’d be better to at least try to follow up on that. What we got was transparently bad improv. Surely there was a better way to address the criticisms of the prior movie, while also doing something else that could feel like a continuation of it. Anything else!

As someone who loves TLJ, it’s honestly baffling. I mean, I had fun, but for all the wrong reasons. TROS was just ridiculous to me. I think I honestly would have hated it, if it wasn’t so cavalier in its capitalistic cynicism, honestly to the point of unintentional humor.

From Palpatine’s reappearance in the crawl, to when Rey was about to say “Rey Skywalker” I was laughing at how soulless and corrupt it dared to be. It was so shameless about everything it did. It reveled in it. I had fun watching the film eat itself alive. You could just see the puppeteers of every faux-emotional moment straining themselves, as well as you could their strings tied hastily to Carrie’s rotting corpse as a marionette. They couldn’t justify the existence of these movies at all.

Everything truly interesting and meaningful about the sequel trilogy was discarded in favor of what? Nothing here was genuine or good*. I’m only holding onto the idea that they made it as comically hollow as they did out of spite.

*well, save for babu frik. and genuinely threepio’s best movie imo

As someone that hates TLJ, I agree it is very odd to not logically follow on from TLJ at this point with TROS to try and salvage a narrative that could span at least 2 concurrent movies instead of this weird convoluted patchwork / director tug of war you get going on that ultimately makes the entire Disney Trilogy a pointless mess. Obviously they heard many of the criticisms aimed at TLJ but failed to understand the impact and lasting fallout from them which was that many fans have become outright apathetic to Star Wars altogether or entirely dismissive of the Disney Trilogy and you were never going to get them back into cinema seats anyway so why pander to their TLJ criticism to the point that you make the movie irrelevant to it’s own trilogy?

I like your line about watching the film eat itself alive and for me, I’d apply that to TLJ as well due to how meta it is. The whole trilogy is so self aware that it literally comes off at this stage as a spoof than any kind of respectful continuation to Lucas’s legacy.

This might veer a little off topic, but the biggest difference between TLJ and TROS for me is that their meta-natures come from different places. TLJ does it in earnest. Johnson is aware of our expectations, but basically begs the audience to scrutinize his work because there is something there. The result may be unwieldly but it’s not soulless. For as much as people say it ruins the originals’ legacy, it’s really just putting the same understood conventions under new thematic tests - by the end reinforcing Star Wars’ ideals of heroism and redemption through perhaps a now stronger, humanistic lens. He broke some rules, introduced some logical quandaries, but it came from a good place. And even if you disagree with his vision, I still felt like Johnson had a reverence for the franchise that permeated the film. Basically saying: This is why Star Wars matters, and how we make it matter moving forward. Like the capability for good in TLJ, Star Wars doesn’t have to be an exclusive club. It’s not a perfectly realized vision by any means, but the self awareness served a thematic purpose. Johnson’s vision at the very least had integrity.

TROS willingly shuns anything TLJ said that might justify why a sequel trilogy should exist, to vaguely placate fans. It doesn’t make any decision based on what it could mean or say about anything. Any exploration of why we should care is forgone to tie us onto a moving rollercoaster, with a villain audiences already know. The self-awareness is used as winks and nods. You can practically hear the “fuck it, this is what they want right?” It’s a product designed entirely by talking points we’ve all heard over and over again in the past two years. It’s cynical and manipulative. Where TLJ had a beating heart and lungs, TROS is barely a Frankenstein of calculated choices.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the ride that was TROS - probably more than my initial TLJ viewing - but it wasn’t because it was any good. It was so tenaciously cynical that I couldn’t help but enjoy how low it was willing to go to earn its paycheck.

DarthJarJarBlinks said:

Star Wars fans have no taste. That should be evident by the fact people STILL defend The Last Jedi.

because it fucking rules yo

I just don’t get it? Like, even if you didn’t like TLJ, it’d be better to at least try to follow up on that. What we got was transparently bad improv. Surely there was a better way to address the criticisms of the prior movie, while also doing something else that could feel like a continuation of it. Anything else!

As someone who loves TLJ, it’s honestly baffling. I mean, I had fun, but for all the wrong reasons. TROS was just ridiculous to me. I think I honestly would have hated it, if it wasn’t so cavalier in its capitalistic cynicism, honestly to the point of unintentional humor.

From Palpatine’s reappearance in the crawl, to when Rey was about to say “Rey Skywalker” I was laughing at how soulless and corrupt it dared to be. It was so shameless about everything it did. It reveled in it. I had fun watching the film eat itself alive. You could just see the puppeteers of every faux-emotional moment straining themselves, as well as you could their strings tied hastily to Carrie’s rotting corpse as a marionette. They couldn’t justify the existence of these movies at all.

Everything truly interesting and meaningful about the sequel trilogy was discarded in favor of what? Nothing here was genuine or good*. I’m only holding onto the idea that they made it as comically hollow as they did out of spite.

*well, save for babu frik. and genuinely threepio’s best movie imo