NFBisms

I definitely agree with most of that. Although having “Don’t you turn against me” as calmer was a deliberate choice on my part. I like the idea that Darth Vader suppresses his conflict and emotion and channels it into power and focus. I mean, Palpatine even says that’s what Anakin does in the film itself, and this keeps Anakin in line with how cognizant he is in this cut. He’s able to be a monster in the theatrical because he’s become unhinged and confused, not fully aware he’s been tricked into believing the wrong things - but since that’s not the case here, I wanted to convey that he “lives” with his actions by numbing himself to his pain, converting it all into more “dark side energy” I guess.

I tried a few more combinations/tweaks of the scene, here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOAkWnTBHBnO42CDxT0rjBF3thUOZ6qa/view

NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.

The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”

I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.

Wanderer_ said:

NFBisms said:

TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.

Would you be able to show some examples of that? Because TLJ is pretty much a de-construction of Star Wars hero narrative. There are no heroes in TLJ.

• The Jedi are corrupted, Luke stepped away because of it and because of it he could not be the hero Rey wanted him to be;
• The resistance is just as crooked as the “bad guys” from the first order, buying black market weapons to fund their ideology;
• Poe is a wrong doer who doesn’t care about the lives of his comrades, only glory;
• Rey couldn’t be a hero, since wan’t trained and by the end of the movie she is still holding on to the prospects of someone taking her in as a pupil;
• Finn tries an act of heroism, the movie stops him;
• Holdo does an act of heroism, but she wasn’t written as a likeable character. Constantly opposing the characters the audience knew and loved (poe);

Personally I don’t see any acts of heroism in TLJ, simply because the stakes aren’t that high in the movie.

Well, the old “idealism and cyncism are not actually opposites” conversation applies here. You can’t deconstruct if you didn’t understand, you don’t become disillusioned without having ideals in the first place. And idealism is just being cynical enough to stand up and take action when no one else will, anyway. They feed into each other - without one another it’s just hopeless pessimism, or naivete.

I’ve discussed this at length on the board before, so forgive me anyone who has to endure this again, but to me TLJ only reinforces heroism by putting heroic idealism through the ringer. Yes, it seems like those traditional examples are more or less refuted in some way - but that complicated tightrope to do the right thing is what makes heroism strong and noble. Even as far back as ESB, the dark side is dangerous because of how easy it is. Fear, anger, hatred, etc. It won’t look like evil incarnate, it’ll seduce your good intentions, exploit your selfish desires.

It is the pursuit of “doing a heroic act” that is a “trick of a dark side”, if you want to look at it that way. Poe and Finn were just looking for a fight, a last stand like in those stories, without understanding what made them heroic in the first place. All heroism really takes is making the right purely good choice in the face of disillusionment.

It’s clumsy, but TLJ reminds us how “we won” in ROTJ. Luke as the son who loved his father, not a Jedi who defeated the Emperor and Vader. Vader not as a Sith Lord who became uncorrupted, but a broken man who realized he still had a choice. The elements that tend to be focused on in those narratives is the sacrifice, the Jedi, the light and the dark - but TLJ brings it back to the people behind it, just making choices. To save the ones they loved.

TLJ doesn’t say, “hey if the bad guys are winning, just give up and run!” It does say, “if the bad guys are winning, that’s why you should keep fighting! live another day” Because there is no endpoint, no perfect character arc or happily ever after. Believing there is, is what leads to disappointment. TLJ fleshes out what it means to follow the OT’s example in a messy real world. It deconstructs by showing us that always lingering element of futility - but comes back to reinforce the value of standing up to it over and over again no matter what. The future as more important than "the end."

The stakes being low(er) emphasizes how noble deeds don’t have to be relegated to one big hero in one big moment. Waiting for one is the wrong move, when we all have the capability for greatness in ourselves. Your heroes are just like you, anyway. Being a hero isn’t a job title, nor is it an exclusive club for “legends.” Our small choices together can make a big impact.

RogueLeader said:

The version looks nice! Just spitballing, but I’ve been thinking about how Anakin and Obi’s convo could be altered to remove the Empire.

You would have to cut to Obi-Wan checking Padme a little earlier since Anakin starts saying, “I have brought peace, yada yada” in the wide. You might can reverse the insert shot of Obi so he continues down to touch her face, then in the Anakin CU we just see him raising up.
If you could somehow splice the shot of Anakin staring toward camera in the foreground and Obi in the background, as Obi raises up into view you could have Anakin say, “Don’t make me kill you.”
(If you managed to do this, I think it could be useful to keep, “I see through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the dark side as you do.” In order to fill the quiet space as Obi checks Padme. It could still work with just some silence though.)
Then you cut to the shot looking over Anakin’s shoulder and have Obi say, “Anakin, face up to what you’ve done!”
Then it cuts to just Obi, and we hear Anakin say, “If you’re not with me…”, which Obi replies with, “I will do what I must.”

If you could manage this, it could be useful to have Anakin still be focused on Padme somewhat, so you could keep, “You will not take her from me!” line.

Alright, I gave something like this a shot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/132nt_eQbmMr-0IxAhPFnxOiBa9yDkD9H/view?usp=drivesdk

I think this is the closest thing to what I’m going for, but the added lines stand out now much more than they did. They worked better in proximity to the removed lines, but next to silence or other bites it’s easier to tell.

Yeah, the important parts here are after - dealing with it - and from a thematic perspective, justifies that initial story decision.

The fact that you feel disappointed is the point. The idea that he should have been better is the point. If you feel that it’s a regression - good. Because then it goes on to refute the notion that he (or anyone for that matter) is a lesser version of themselves because of failure. “Regression” as a harmful concept. Growth isn’t linear, and evolution isn’t about becoming better, but simply trying every day. You don’t actually conquer darkness once, and thinking you do is hubris. It contextualizes Luke’s “I am a Jedi” moment as less of a Jedi one, but a human one. A son believing in his father.

If we’re talking about messages, this is what makes TLJ a sequel to the OT, and not just part of a soft reboot. Rather than reintroduce the same themes to a new audience in a new coat of paint, it actively builds on the core lessons from those films, adding nuance to their ideals of heroism and redemption. Reinforcing Luke Skywalker as heroic because of who he was, not what he should have/would have/could have been. Of course the OT can stand on its own as good messages without any sequels, but there are sequels now and TLJ does more than make what it can out of it. It doesn’t mimic the OT, it fleshes out what it means to follow their example in a messy real world, but also why it’s important to, even when it seems fruitless.

I know it’s off topic and I’m repeating myself, but I wish some people would at least acknowledge what it’s trying to do. Even if they’re not a fan of it. Honestly just put this post in General Discussion if you have to.

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

For starters, Luke is not conflicted at all in this film about what he did to Ben. Hence, not the conflict. Not rehashed. (he even says this to ben: “you here to save my soul?” “nope”)

It’s all about the aftermath of that failure. And it’s about how failure doesn’t define you. How what you’ve done doesn’t dictate what you can do, how you aren’t your past, you’re your future. It stops relegating responsibility for heroism on a character arc or bloodline or the light side or the dark - and on people. Their choices and their actions. Luke Skywalker as the son who loved his father, not a heroic Jedi who defeated Vader and the Emperor.

Luke taking responsibility as who he was, the boy looking out at the horizon, and not the pretty story he became as Luke the Legend - reinforces those ideals. Are there other things they could have done? Of course, but this isn’t bad at all. It’s an idealistic human message that I think we missed out on when Vader died. Redemption is about moving on with every mistake as a part of yourself. Not atoning for or running away from your past. Moving forward. Star Wars isn’t the superhero story TROS seems to think it was; it was always the little guys standing up to the big impossible odds, thrust into a world larger than themselves. Luke’s arc here reinforces that spirit. Making him a superhero wouldn’t not work, but it’s cheaper than understanding the humanity behind his actions.

I guess, if anything TLJ says “regression doesn’t exist” and holding the world to that standard is what leads to disappointment and cynicism. That’s a mature take on heroic idealism that I’m glad Star Wars grappled with at least once before becoming mindless nonsense. That even if you and everything you’re fighting against lets you down or becomes harder to fight, doesn’t mean you should give up. In fact, that’s why you should continue. And you will have to, because there is no happily ever after.

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

FreezingTNT2 said:

The filmmakers could’ve given Luke a different motivation for staying on Ahch-To, while not having him be out-of-character, contradictory to his already-established character traits (like redeeming other family members) or undoing his arc from the original trilogy so they can re-do that arc all over again. I mean, why would he be looking for the first Jedi temple, as mentioned by Han in The Force Awakens?

the fact that people think “redeeming family members” is a character trait and not an action of pure good shows that it needed to be told this way xP

it’s not redo-ing a character arc if he learns and develops further than the original lesson

the fact that it’s “again” is pretty integral to the film

the fact that it’s as out of character as it is for him, is pretty integral to the film

why would luke exile himself for any less of a failure? he failed his nephew and all his students in one night, out of an instinct he believed he overcame all those years ago. that’s the failure he feels so deeply

this is like something that worked the best in TLJ, removing it just confuses luke’s arc and makes him kind of unlikable.

if he sees han’s death, then he just gave up to let that happen? if he doesn’t instinctually think to kill ben, then his exile becomes uncharacteristically irresponsible and cowardly?

the way it is in the theatrical is consistent with the idealist we know and love from the OT, i dont think changing it does the film any favors. he feels responsibility deeply and holds his principles to a high standard. he wouldn’t abandon them just because

TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.

Not that I’m going to use this, but anyone who saw the earlier versions remember when it ended like this? I just found the file for it on my old hard drive, and thought I could put it up here again if anyone liked the idea:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Rp6b16RgvPFdxaRXdKG0cXmA-55lyXws/view?usp=sharing

The film’s pacing and style just shifts drastically with it, which is why I didn’t end up keeping it. And now that TROS uses this soundtrack in its ending, I’d rather not anyway. But this could probably be used for some 3-in-1 edit in this style, where the pacing would probably be equivalent to this throughout.

…

The original ending is more than fine. I should be done with this whole edit soon.
Here’s a go at trying to have Obi-Wan initially want to help Anakin out of the fire at the end of their duel:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YjwftQIt-rpTluDVkP5NRnBhNodfSQxb/view?usp=sharing

StarkillerAG said:

It seems like I dislike this movie for the same reason that many people like it: the underlying message of hopelessness.

Luke is actually a depressed hermit instead of a noble hero. Sacrificing yourself for the greater good is actually not a good thing. It doesn’t matter if the Resistance loses and everyone dies, because some Harry Potter cosplayers will rise to defeat whatever fascist government is in charge at that point. For a franchise all about heroism and the light beating the dark, TLJ sure loves to portray heroism as the wrong choice every time. I used to love this movie because of the subversions, but now that I think about it I realize that the subversions actively harm the thematic structure of the saga.

Not really.

Everything you’ve mentioned is more of a TROS criticism, if anything. TLJ says the opposite about pretty much all of your points. Which is interesting.

i wanna die

hey i haven’t done this in a bit it feels good to be home

FreezingTNT2 said:

As I said, he redeemed his father and conquered the darkness, only to fall victim to it yet again? I mean, what was the point of him conquering the darkness in Return of the Jedi if he is going to fall victim to it yet again?

I mean, that’s the question isn’t it? The question his entire arc in TLJ is based on. Why did he fail, again? And what does that mean? It’s not undoing character development, it’s expanding upon it.

The answer the film provides reinforces another theme of ROTJ that everyone tends to look over. Vader realizes his previous choices don’t define his future ones. He can still do a good thing even if he feels it’s too late for him. But that can be true for good and evil. Luke’s choice to reject the dark side once didn’t mean he wouldn’t have to face that decision again down the line. Darth Vader dies in the OT before they can explore the nature of ongoing redemption, (because that’s what redemption should be) and that’s what makes this a relevant and fitting theme for Star Wars.

Life is an ongoing struggle and “hero” isn’t a job title you earn, it’s a part you play every day. And it’s hard to do. Remember, the danger of the dark side is that it’s quick and easy, and can look like the justified right thing to do. You don’t conquer it, because it’s choice. Not nature. Luke Skywalker the Legend only exists if Luke chooses to be.

This permeates every subplot of TLJ: Poe can’t coast on good intentions if it kills the people around him, Finn won’t help anything with fruitless sacrifice, Rey finds turning someone is more than just reaching out.

Because of how it fleshes out the themes of the OT, it’s a valuable lesson to teach, if there had to be more movies. Luke being the vessel for it makes it especially more poignant. I don’t think a lot of people have an issue with this theme itself, they just don’t like that Luke had to be the one to convey it.

But I can’t think of another character it would work nearly as well with.

After watching a cut last night, him talking about his Empire here doesn’t not track, I think.

Anakin’s politics are still his politics. I use some version of Hal’s political-focused structure after all. But in this edit Anakin views it more as a neccessary evil. His authoritarian proclivities come off as naive and/or blind in the theatrical, but by showing him tempering this side of himself in the first half of mine, I feel I’m able to convey a more nuanced relationship with those beliefs.

By killing Dooku of his own accord, it establishes that he himself believes Dooku was “too dangerous to be alive.” He regrets it, because he’s a Jedi. He believes in Palpatine when the Jedi don’t, but he tempers that because he’s a Jedi. He is upset with the Jedi for committing treason but he goes along with it, because he’s a Jedi. Because he’s a Jedi, he will act against his instinct. It’s his duty.

Theatrical!Anakin has every authoritarian preference manipulated into him by Palpatine, and doesn’t bother not acting out in front of the Jedi. His fall is a foregone conclusion.

It was almost an accident, but by trying to make him more likeable and heroic in the first half, I gave him more dimensions than his original character. You can’t fully remove what’s in the original film, but the restraint that is depicted when trying actually worked pretty well. Anakin is trying to be good, which makes him sympathetic, but when the Jedi Order show themselves to be hypocritcal, a disillusioned Anakin feels he can make a selfish choice for once.

Anakin’s visible excitement over ruling the galaxy and feelings that Padme would be too, are what was a bridge too far for me. He’s not supposed to be insane. But he can still believe the Empire is an efficient government while being cognizant of the horrible things required to secure it. When he starts talking about it to Obi-Wan, he’s justifying his choices in a way that is relevant to the Jedi/duty aspect of Anakin’s turn. Obi-Wan is explicitly a part of that subplot, where he had nothing to do with the Padme nightmares.

It’ll make sense when you see it I hope.

That’s fair. In the context of the rest of the edit though, there’s just nothing to suggest prior bad blood between Anakin and Obi-Wan. And since I’m not approaching Anakin’s fall from the angle that Anakin is blindly corrupted and villainous, I needed to convey that Anakin still sees Obi-Wan as a friend. Obviously Obi-Wan “turned” Padme against him, but I think it’s clear with the rest of the edit that Obi-Wan didn’t intend to. Anakin should be able to sense that.

Anakin in this edit hasn’t gone fully over to the dark side by this point. Sure, he’s killed a lot but he doesn’t like that he had to do it. He doesn’t feel like he’s the one who’s been betrayed - he’s fully aware that he’s the one betraying. He had hoped to hide this from Padme, and he could never look at Obi-Wan again.

But now that he’s confronted with consequence - a Padme who hates him - he doesn’t necessarily want to lose Obi-Wan too. Obi-Wan should have died. “Don’t you turn against me. Don’t lecture me. Don’t make me kill you.” Join me, just let me do this, get out of here or else.

“Don’t you turn against me” also gives Obi-Wan something to work with as reframed actually trying to help Anakin. Instead of Anakin’s anger and lust for power taking Padme away (as Obi-Wan responds to in the theatrical), they are the things that Obi-Wan says have turned against Anakin himself. Obi-Wan wants to convey that Anakin is a victim of his own selfish passions; he isn’t indicting Anakin as much as he is the toxic feelings that led him where he is now. He believes he can still make the right choice.

Anakin’s cognizant rejection of that olive branch is what will make him Vader. Padme thinks he’s a monster. It’s too late for him.

Darth Vader is a cold and in-control warlord. And a loyal servant of the Empire. He’s more hollow shell than vengeful maniac. I think the transition between Anakin and Vader is smoother without the in-between: the childlike, power-obssessed Proto-Vader we get in the theatrical.

Artan42 said:

NFBisms said:

As for Padme, I’ve replaced “Stop! stop! Come back! I love you!” with “I don’t know you anymore” to keep her consistent after she backs away… Although, yes now it feels a little like she is way less forgiving of Anakin and for less reason. You just have to remember mass murderer I guess, and through that lens she’d be in the right. Or any lens, really. But we’re all so familiar with her being inexplicably lovestruck with said mass murderer in the theatrical that it feels off.

I actually think it feels [i]less[/i] sudden now. With the reintegrated Rebellion scenes she’s already committed herself to doing what’s right over loyalty to the institution she’s served since she was 14 and to the man who introduced her to politics. She’s already seen the Republic go off the deep end in the War and now it looks like Palpatine has also betrayed her, that’s a lot of loss for a person and now Anakin has shown he’s clearly been with Palpatine since the beginning (or as far as she can see anyway). It actually gives her a chance to show some emotions of he own (namely anger and betrayal) rather than just existing in the orbit of Anakin.

It also helps remove the single worst scene of any SW film (and I include Jar-Jar reacting to the pink horses in TPM) which is the scene in AotC where she forgives him for wiping out an entire village and passes it off as ‘normal’ behaviour.

I actually agree, I just think the emotions don’t feel as high as they were when she was begging him. The desperate “I love you,” while incongruous with the “because of what you’ve done,” added a sense of spite to her betrayal that I liked. I like the idea that she would lie to lower his guard, but it just moved too fast for that to be conveyed as effectively. With “I don’t know you anymore,” it’s still just more Padme being sad and helpless, and her confession feels frightened out of her by Anakin as opposed to the stand she was taking before.

So it’s either:

1. Padme realizes Obi-Wan was right, but makes an attempt to lower Anakin’s guard by continuing to ask him back. However Obi-Wan appears, and she loses that advantage. When she admits to Anakin that Obi-Wan is to kill him, it reveals her true intentions. Lying changes her motivations to hostile. Obi-Wan’s appearance could be read as perhaps him stopping Padme from whatever she was going to do. Anakin chokes her because she has made herself an enemy.

2. Padme realizes Obi-Wan was right, gives up on Anakin. When Obi-Wan appears, it’s more like she’s so distraught at this point she would let Obi-Wan kill him. “Because of what you’ve done” he’d deserve it, but the agency I was trying to give her in the first place isn’t as present. Anakin here chokes her only because she’s given up on him and let him go.

I think I ultimately want to stick with #1.

Here’s the newest attempt, using #2 for now:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r8bjlJY2lK8Zd3y4GM_xBQmabkkndLio

A little test of Anakin attacking first. It almost works but I couldn’t get the steam over Obi-Wan quite right, and we don’t even see Obi-Wan ignite his lightsaber on the split second cut. It works if you just look at Anakin though lmao. I’ll keep trying. It’s close.

I think it’s as morally complicated as Empire, but that’s almost besides the point.

And I wasn’t who compared it to Empire first. xP

This is all just my opinion. A very nitpicky one at that. I like the show, and I’m sure it’ll get better, but I don’t really think it earns its hype right now. Believe it or not, I actually agree with everything you’re saying about Din, Cara, Greef, Herzog. But what I’m saying exactly is that the show leaves all of that as subtext 90% of the time. Stuff like that should be what the show is about. It’s why I actually like episodes 2 and 4 a lot, which seemed unpopular with people for being “filler.” They’re actually about the characters in it, have anything to portray about the world beyond the surface.

I think it’s morally confused more than anything. It’s only mature in concept, not execution. It’s a shallow kids version of the story you’ve outlined. That’s what I’m saying. He becomes good because Baby and he was once Baby. That’s the extent of the exploration this season. They didn’t explore anything more when they had ample opportunity to synthesize it with parallels to the young Calican, revisiting his old comrades, or in the action itself, etc.

Like not to get hypothetical, but maybe he could’ve seen all the different places his chosen path would have brought him, tragically put in the ground for his ambitions, or surrounded by terrible people he can’t identify with anymore (eps 5/6). This life of violence he basically worships leading him away from human connection he might have wanted (ep 4). None of that is actually in the show outside of me just pulling that analysis out of my ass just now. But imagine if that was what the episodes were rather than just homaging crime tropes. As it stands, Calican was dispatched coldly with no remorse from the storytelling, but the mercenaries all get to live for some reason. The Mando expresses nothing about any of this.

Cara is a fun interesting character, but her being a rebel is an easy way to make her sympathetic. Kuill/IG are the most interesting characters but even that has the element of “good because programming.”

It’s not a mature handling of what is an inherently mature premise is what I’m saying. It wants to stay as morally black/white as possible while still being an anti-hero narrative. You can’t have your cake and eat it too is where I’m at with it.

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t see how the show “talks down” to anyone. It doesn’t include violence for the sake of violence, all the adult stuff in the show has been portrayed very tastefully.

I don’t think the magnitude of violence itself has anything to do with what I’m saying, really. I don’t mind it, and whether or not it’s done tastefully is besides the point. (it’s not violent imo) But think of it like this. It’s like if you made a crime movie for kids. What would that entail? The premise is inherently tied to, well, crime. You can sanitize the violence all you want but thematically it can’t be the same as a normal crime film. The Godfather but the family goes straight? The Mandalorian is at its best when it commits, which it doesn’t so that it can be “enjoyed by everyone.”

But I’m gonna stop now tho. Just remember, I’m not attacking the show! I like it! I wish it were better! It’s good! Not great!

ray_afraid said:

I just don’t see any of this perceived “pandering”.
The baby isn’t anymore pandering than the one in Lone Wolf & Cub.
It’s cute, sure. But babies are cute. So What?

I certainly don’t see this pulling any punches that Empire would’a thrown.
I don’t think that statement holds any water at all.

Guess I don’t feel that this was to overly badass or cutesy.

Also, totally rad BTS shots!

I actually don’t think it panders to children more than it panders to adults that would feel ashamed for liking things made for children. If that makes sense? But it clearly is made for a younger audience, they just put in stuff like door dismemberment to get “adults” into it.

To me it’s an illusion of the tone Empire hit.

Empire wasn’t mature because they lost and Luke lost a hand, it was a well written story about faith, sacrifice, and failure. Kids could enjoy it because it never crossed a line in regards to violence or sex, but they didn’t need to “get” everything that was happening on a thematic level, that makes it work as a great film.

The Mandalorian feels like it talks down to kids. And adults, for that matter. Perhaps it was just my expectations, but the reason to set a Star Wars show in this part of the galaxy would be putting us in the shoes of the scum and villainy of the galaxy. The OT is what it is because we follow plucky rebel heroes doing good. That morality doesn’t have to be consistent when we start following different characters. I mean, Rogue One didn’t.

For example, the Clone Wars and even Solo are able to depict dilemmas and nuanced characters that aren’t just Jedi or rebels. Ventress, Beckett, Boba, Bo-Katan, etc. But in Mando, bandits might as well be Putty Patrol. The mercenaries we meet in episode 6 are all unlikeable jackasses. Toro Calican is set up to be somewhat sympathetically over his head, but is coldly treated as “deserved to die” by the end of his episode. Everyone but Mando is bad, IG needs to be reprogrammed to be good, Carga is Lando he had no choice. The stories are simplistic and shallow in a way they don’t have to be considering what the show’s premise is.

It doesn’t feel like “for kids” in the sense that they shoehorn Jar Jars or cutesy droids, that’s not what I’m saying. It’s “for kids” because they handle subject matter the franchise has handled before with kid gloves, but through that demonstrate no faith in kids to appreciate more. It talks down equally to adults, as though we wouldn’t even give it a shot if it didn’t have an edge. It’s not a balance. It’s two clashing motivations for existing mashed together.

All of this say, I do like the show, but I think it’s one of the things that show Star Wars is a consistent brand as opposed to a universe I like.

StarkillerAG said:

I understand your point of view, but I don’t feel like The Mandalorian is too edgy, or too safe. Like the later seasons of Clone Wars, it’s a nice compromise between child-friendly and adult-friendly, safe and risky. I feel like that’s the route Star Wars should go in the future.

ray_afraid said:

I guess it’s kid-friendly? But I don’t remember ever feeling like they threw something in just for kids. I hate that $#*! & I was very much worried about it.
The tone feels very much like Empire to me. It’s for every age without pandering to any age.

StarkillerAG said:

Yeah, that’s what I meant. Star Wars is intended for all ages, and The Mandalorian really did a good job of allowing people of all ages to enjoy the show.

I can’t really explain this opinion too well but it feels different to me.

Empire didn’t pander to any age but this feels opposite. Like, they tried to pander to every age. Like they go halfway “for kids” and halfway “for adults.” It’s a show about a seedy criminal underworld but operates on very basic black/white morality. It tries to show the inherent goodness of our hero but also wants to make him a cold, ruthless badass. Baby Yoda but also, Bill Burr!

It’s how we get an entire episode seemingly endeared to the ambitions of a young hotshot bounty hunter, only for him to be quickly dispatched in such a weirdly dispassionate, cynical manner. But then how we get a mildly violent slasher-inspired “hunting for prey” scene next episode, only for every unsympathetic mercenary to be alive at the end. Together those are mixed messages. It goes back and forth between rule of cool and kid gloves.

And look, there could be an interesting discussion there, but any themes about the dichotomy inherent in all this is left only as subtext. There’s no real depth, in a way that feels like a symptom of the show being neutered from the start as something for a younger, less thoughtful audience.

It feels safe because there are new concepts and ideas here, but they just fold those back into the classical Star Wars archetypes. The Mandalorians as a violent warrior culture are treated as essentially just another honorable faction - with unique customs ofc, but - like the Jedi. These far reaches of the galaxy in disarray after a revolution, but we’re still seeing parts dominated by an evil Empire. The potential of humanizing the “simple men just trying to make their way in the universe” is forgone so that it can continue making all criminals just dishonorable scumbags; with the exception of our hero who is learning not to be (sounds familiar). I don’t care about making Star Wars “dark” - this isn’t about violence or anything - but they clearly use the interesting anti-heroism angles as a hook (esp. in the marketing), and cop out of exploring them.

If it was really like Empire, it wouldn’t pull its punches or simplify/ignore themes just because kids are in the audience. Granted, we lack the frame of reference for a “Star War” crime/western - the OT didn’t have a navigation of ambiguous morality and civilization to contend with. But it’s not like the PT dumbed down its own boring politics and trade disputes. Even if the original stories are your archetypal plucky heroes fighting evil bad guys, they existed in something far larger than that conflict. They brushed shoulders with all kinds of different exciting things that didn’t have to be the same genre/style if you were to go possibly into detail.

I guess that’s my issue with it. It still feels Star Wars-“branded” even when it posits to explore a side of the universe not connected substantially to the movies. The Clone Wars did bounty hunters and a criminal underworld with more nuance in a few one-off episodes alone. And that was for kids! The galaxy as it did when I was younger watching the OT just doesn’t feel as expansive or as full of possibility. It feels more obvious than ever that there’s stylistic/brand cap on the creativity of whatever Star Wars explores now.

I like the show, it’s certainly fun, but not in the way it is hyped up on reddit or across the internet.

I was only joking, no need to high road me lmao. I don’t actually believe most fans have “bad taste”, I just can’t deny that what seemingly more and more people want for the franchise is at odds with my own preferences.

The Mando was a pretty good show, but to me it’s not the “savior of Star Wars” that I’ve seen a lot of people call it. And when they point to shallow episodes like episode 6 as a reason for that, but call something like episode 2 meh, it’s easy for me to slip into judging other’s preferences because if anything I would think the opposite. People love their badass action and towing the line between being a kids show and not, but that’s not enough for me personally.

Give me jawas, weird eggs, genre pastiche, worldbuilding, and real feeling people over headshots and borrowing the tones of “darker” things. I would have felt the opposite way once - when I was 13. That sounds pretentious but The Mando only pleases everyone by being so safe. It has potential to be so much better.

But I also rewatched Cowboy Bebop before this came out so my perspective may be skewed a little.

I actively despised episode 6, but it seems to be a pretty popular episode of the show which shows that a lot of SW fans just have bad taste imo

Yeah, I’m running into some of the same concerns myself. Some of them I can look past (Obi-Wan and Padme having different reasons for being there) but others like Anakin immediately talking about an Empire are a little more iffy.

The way I’m justifying it right now is that Anakin’s lines afterwards seem to be trying to shut down, or are not necessarily addressing anything Obi-Wan is saying. He’s willfully rejecting reason to become stronger in the dark side. It’s not gloating so much as it’s him latching onto any reason to continue down this path. Again, Anakin feels he’s crossed a point of no return. He can’t go back now, and all this suffering can’t have been for nothing. If not Padme, what did he do everything for? Well, he still has this Empire. He doesn’t necessarily believe in all of this, and his silence + non-responses can convey that. Maybe provoking Obi-Wan makes this choice easier too. It’s also why I’m being a little resistant to get rid of “I did what I had to”, because it’s one of the only things that can help that idea get across.

As for Padme, I’ve replaced “Stop! stop! Come back! I love you!” with “I don’t know you anymore” to keep her consistent after she backs away… Although, yes now it feels a little like she is way less forgiving of Anakin and for less reason. You just have to remember mass murderer I guess, and through that lens she’d be in the right. Or any lens, really. But we’re all so familiar with her being inexplicably lovestruck with said mass murderer in the theatrical that it feels off.

Here’s a newer pass:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P97bR4caigVEJ6Ph_dVRS7qTznH_FvEM/view?usp=sharing

Idk why but the “you werent there” was pitched up on the previous two passes, bringing it back down in this one fits better and to a point that I’m okay with. I’m working on a way to make Anakin attack first, but VFX isn’t my strongest suit

Re: season 7 concerns, I actually kept “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi” where it is in the theatrical version; I removed it from the deleted scene that uses the same line. As for “Great care we must take” I’ll see what I can do about it.

For the most part, I don’t think it contradicts the chronology of the original too much. Besides, my approach to editing Hayden to be more like Lanter isn’t really in adhering to TCW like gospel, but rather re-introducing him as the same character. You’re never going to get the same mannerisms or overall vibe/demeanor between the two men, but you have to be able to believe that these two interpretations occupy the same space and role within the world. It’s more than removing something Lanter’s Anakin wouldn’t say, it’s editing characters to treat Hayden like Lanter’s Anakin, and giving him things to say and do that Lanter might’ve. The adjusted chronology is a way to establish Hayden in that same role, where the theatrical builds off of Attack of the Clones. Think of it as establishing the character to someone who had never seen TCW, and how they would get who that Anakin was without having seen it themselves. If we see do see the same things again in TCW, it’s retreading for an audience unfamiliar with TCW.

And honestly as we get towards the finale of the edit, it becomes more about Anakin as Vader. Leaning into the “It’s too late for me” thread from ROTJ, giving him more remorse and self-awareness. His good intentions crossing a perceived point of no return, as opposed to corruption and power lust. I’ve always loved Vader’s reframing of “You don’t know the power of the dark side” and it’s a relationship with the dark side that I wanted to explore here. That TCW aligns with what Vader describes about Obi-Wan and vice versa is a bonus.

Speaking of which, here’s my take on the lead-up to Mustafar:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1swtkqqDU6pPobxU0fOQVaklmo7sDvD5v/view?usp=sharing

It’s a bit of a switcheroo from the theatrical as far as Obi-Wan and Padme go. Padme admits to bringing Obi-Wan to kill Anakin later obviously, but I think Obi-Wan here doesn’t come off as someone who’s trying to kill anyone. He doesn’t get a mission from Yoda to take out Anakin, and by moving his “Anakin is the father” to before he sits down, it conveys he wants to help him. I mean, that’s not something you say as a reason for someone to bring you to someone you want to kill.

“I’m sorry I’m going to kill your baby daddy” vs “We have to find him because he’s your child’s father.”

…

For the Mustafar scene itself, I think Obi-Wan being less angry with Anakin at this juncture is essential to the arc. He thinks he can bring him back, and only fights as “what he must.” When he finally forsakes Anakin by the end of an emotional fight, that is truly when Vader is born. I realize the rearrangement of lines may be jarring to those so familiar with the original film, but this is supposed to be a different thing. I really want to get it feeling as natural as possible. I’m juggling with like three different shifted characters motivations so it can be difficult but I think I’m getting close-ish? Do you think it’d be impossible for it to ever work?