NFBisms

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@idir: In the theatrical “It’s a system we cannot afford to lose” already implies that there is a Republic presence on Kashyyk before Yoda ever goes there, so this feeling more like a resuming of hostilities rather than initial invasion works okay enough.

I can definitely extend the scene because there is more of the battle I can use from Order 66, but I specifically want to use the Wookiee D-Day shot later because it helps with an audio transition there. Besides I like how it serendipitous-ly has some storytelling going on. It kind of portrays a wookiee morale boost after Yoda has arrived.

@snooker
As far as the jarring cut, would a wipe and/or planet shot help or anything? The original music transition is in itself already jarring - I literally didn’t do anything but fade it into the Invasion music - so it didn’t bother me too much that it felt very sudden.

Meh, I prefer having a not yet contextualized inciting incident, as opposed to this plot point casually dropped in a scene that felt like it ended already. I really don’t like how “What about the droid attack on the wookiees?” just comes out of nowhere in the council scene, and that’s what takes Yoda out of Coruscant.

It didn’t feel like anything we needed to be paying attention to. The focus felt like it should be on Anakin sitting in on the council meeting after rejection, they’re doing business as usual - defeat of Grevious ends the war, “the outlying systems you must sweep,” etc. It’s just off to me that this important point is just dropped for the first time there.

At least even if we don’t know what this Kashyyk scene is about yet, it clearly starts a new plot, and makes it feel like the later council meeting is actually following up on something. They’re discussing events we the audience saw. It honestly flows better to me this way, having the set up and payoff happen from beginning to end with everything else. Rather than in the middle of the film.

I use the original transition later to break up the mototony of the political stuff, and its placement implies that Palpatine is who gives Anakin his nightmares.

how’s this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a_1zCE-ar5HLc_3X0hoJrEbfsJOP1txU/view?usp=sharing

Thx, I really only post the iffiest stuff I’m currently working on, since I need to see what exactly is really stretching it. Finding a way to end that part of the conversation is definitely what I was having a lot of trouble with. Where does it start to get weird?

I could always leave it hanging until Padme changes the subject. Rearrange the lines a little more optimally.

As far as Hayden’s voice, it’s not a different accent he’s just inflecting more than the monotone we’re used to, which I think is better tbh.

i’ll be the editor brave enough to edit in full penetration, just you all wait. it’ll fix everything

edit: would you believe i immediately regretted posting this

Here’s another preview of earlier on in the edit:
[removed to be tweaked]

“General Skywalker!”

I rescored Anakin and Padme meeting for the first time in the film, with the score from when they were really meeting for the first time in TPM. It’s a good callback, and TPM has my favorite prequel soundtrack anyway (don’t @me). It also lends itself to their conversation, it evokes those same feelings of innocence and possibility that having a child can give. Anakin is happy, it’s a happy moment!

Anakin turns to the dark side for Padme, their relationship has to be painted as this good thing, not the possessive and jealous affair it is in the theatrical.

After is where I put the droid attack on the wookiees. It sets up Yoda going there later, and I needed a buffer in between the reunion and the next scene… Anakin and Padme on the balcony discussing where on Naboo they want to bring the baby. (gardens, beautiful bc love, etc.)

Jumping straight into the politics like in previous cuts/Hal’s almost undid some of the endearment I built to Anakin’s character at the start, so I wanted to ease us into Coruscant life by letting Anakin be with Padme a little more. He’s in love, he laughs - he doesn’t go straight into supporting a would-be dictator, and there’s more to him than just his strife. He’s about to become a father!

“Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough…”

In the establishing shots of the scene, instead of Anakin just staring at Padme, I’ve spliced together the end of a conversation between the two about giving their child his lightsaber. This further ties the film into the original trilogy, specifically those lines Old Ben has to Luke when he gives him the saber. By depicting Anakin as an excited soon-to-be dad, that sets up father and son’s later connection a lot better. In the theatrical, the child seems almost like an afterthought, if not a massive inconvenience. Here, it shows Anakin does what he does not just for Padme, but his family.

I’m just going to adjust the levels a bit on the “Don’t ask me to do that” and “I’m so sorry” (or just remove it, I’ll see how people receive it), and add that dramatic cue Chips suggested for Obi’s appearance. This should more or less be the last thing I figure out before I have a workprint ready.

I like the movie and even I think it’s unwieldy and unclear, for the record. It is a not great scene. But it thematically tracks to me regardless of if Luke was coming or not. Rose was saving a guy she cared for in a human act of desperation. “The cause” in such a moment is so muddled by survival instinct - it didn’t matter more than saving/being with the people she loved. The idea is that that is a more pure intention than destroying an enemy, and how we care for each other is where good comes from. “How we’ll win.” Those acts can add up to true heroism, saving lives and not further taking them.

This pursuit of a fight to end all fights, the concept of a war to be won and an ending to be reached, are some of the things TLJ wants to show is an unrealistic, bad goal. Finn and Poe’s stories throughout the film are supposed to be examples of actions made towards those goals. The fact that Finn would/could have done damage and bought time is irrelevant to the message, because his sacrifice would be a selfish one. Motivated by anger and validation. That’s what the scene is about, but it just doesn’t do anything to stop people from thinking about its mathematical yields compared to other sacrifices. Which is ultimately its problem.

(altho that skimmer was fucked imo idk how you guys thought he was going to succeed)

^yeah, I think that’s what I’ll go with

here’s how it is rn:
https://vimeo.com/390390964
password: fanedit

redemption is a lie

I definitely agree with most of that. Although having “Don’t you turn against me” as calmer was a deliberate choice on my part. I like the idea that Darth Vader suppresses his conflict and emotion and channels it into power and focus. I mean, Palpatine even says that’s what Anakin does in the film itself, and this keeps Anakin in line with how cognizant he is in this cut. He’s able to be a monster in the theatrical because he’s become unhinged and confused, not fully aware he’s been tricked into believing the wrong things - but since that’s not the case here, I wanted to convey that he “lives” with his actions by numbing himself to his pain, converting it all into more “dark side energy” I guess.

I tried a few more combinations/tweaks of the scene, here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOAkWnTBHBnO42CDxT0rjBF3thUOZ6qa/view

NeverarGreat said:

snooker said:

About the Dreadnought destruction:

In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.

And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.

The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.

Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.

Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.

Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.

Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.

I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.

So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.

The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.

Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”

I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.

Wanderer_ said:

NFBisms said:

TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.

Would you be able to show some examples of that? Because TLJ is pretty much a de-construction of Star Wars hero narrative. There are no heroes in TLJ.

• The Jedi are corrupted, Luke stepped away because of it and because of it he could not be the hero Rey wanted him to be;
• The resistance is just as crooked as the “bad guys” from the first order, buying black market weapons to fund their ideology;
• Poe is a wrong doer who doesn’t care about the lives of his comrades, only glory;
• Rey couldn’t be a hero, since wan’t trained and by the end of the movie she is still holding on to the prospects of someone taking her in as a pupil;
• Finn tries an act of heroism, the movie stops him;
• Holdo does an act of heroism, but she wasn’t written as a likeable character. Constantly opposing the characters the audience knew and loved (poe);

Personally I don’t see any acts of heroism in TLJ, simply because the stakes aren’t that high in the movie.

Well, the old “idealism and cyncism are not actually opposites” conversation applies here. You can’t deconstruct if you didn’t understand, you don’t become disillusioned without having ideals in the first place. And idealism is just being cynical enough to stand up and take action when no one else will, anyway. They feed into each other - without one another it’s just hopeless pessimism, or naivete.

I’ve discussed this at length on the board before, so forgive me anyone who has to endure this again, but to me TLJ only reinforces heroism by putting heroic idealism through the ringer. Yes, it seems like those traditional examples are more or less refuted in some way - but that complicated tightrope to do the right thing is what makes heroism strong and noble. Even as far back as ESB, the dark side is dangerous because of how easy it is. Fear, anger, hatred, etc. It won’t look like evil incarnate, it’ll seduce your good intentions, exploit your selfish desires.

It is the pursuit of “doing a heroic act” that is a “trick of a dark side”, if you want to look at it that way. Poe and Finn were just looking for a fight, a last stand like in those stories, without understanding what made them heroic in the first place. All heroism really takes is making the right purely good choice in the face of disillusionment.

It’s clumsy, but TLJ reminds us how “we won” in ROTJ. Luke as the son who loved his father, not a Jedi who defeated the Emperor and Vader. Vader not as a Sith Lord who became uncorrupted, but a broken man who realized he still had a choice. The elements that tend to be focused on in those narratives is the sacrifice, the Jedi, the light and the dark - but TLJ brings it back to the people behind it, just making choices. To save the ones they loved.

TLJ doesn’t say, “hey if the bad guys are winning, just give up and run!” It does say, “if the bad guys are winning, that’s why you should keep fighting! live another day” Because there is no endpoint, no perfect character arc or happily ever after. Believing there is, is what leads to disappointment. TLJ fleshes out what it means to follow the OT’s example in a messy real world. It deconstructs by showing us that always lingering element of futility - but comes back to reinforce the value of standing up to it over and over again no matter what. The future as more important than "the end."

The stakes being low(er) emphasizes how noble deeds don’t have to be relegated to one big hero in one big moment. Waiting for one is the wrong move, when we all have the capability for greatness in ourselves. Your heroes are just like you, anyway. Being a hero isn’t a job title, nor is it an exclusive club for “legends.” Our small choices together can make a big impact.

RogueLeader said:

The version looks nice! Just spitballing, but I’ve been thinking about how Anakin and Obi’s convo could be altered to remove the Empire.

You would have to cut to Obi-Wan checking Padme a little earlier since Anakin starts saying, “I have brought peace, yada yada” in the wide. You might can reverse the insert shot of Obi so he continues down to touch her face, then in the Anakin CU we just see him raising up.
If you could somehow splice the shot of Anakin staring toward camera in the foreground and Obi in the background, as Obi raises up into view you could have Anakin say, “Don’t make me kill you.”
(If you managed to do this, I think it could be useful to keep, “I see through the lies of the Jedi, I do not fear the dark side as you do.” In order to fill the quiet space as Obi checks Padme. It could still work with just some silence though.)
Then you cut to the shot looking over Anakin’s shoulder and have Obi say, “Anakin, face up to what you’ve done!”
Then it cuts to just Obi, and we hear Anakin say, “If you’re not with me…”, which Obi replies with, “I will do what I must.”

If you could manage this, it could be useful to have Anakin still be focused on Padme somewhat, so you could keep, “You will not take her from me!” line.

Alright, I gave something like this a shot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/132nt_eQbmMr-0IxAhPFnxOiBa9yDkD9H/view?usp=drivesdk

I think this is the closest thing to what I’m going for, but the added lines stand out now much more than they did. They worked better in proximity to the removed lines, but next to silence or other bites it’s easier to tell.

Yeah, the important parts here are after - dealing with it - and from a thematic perspective, justifies that initial story decision.

The fact that you feel disappointed is the point. The idea that he should have been better is the point. If you feel that it’s a regression - good. Because then it goes on to refute the notion that he (or anyone for that matter) is a lesser version of themselves because of failure. “Regression” as a harmful concept. Growth isn’t linear, and evolution isn’t about becoming better, but simply trying every day. You don’t actually conquer darkness once, and thinking you do is hubris. It contextualizes Luke’s “I am a Jedi” moment as less of a Jedi one, but a human one. A son believing in his father.

If we’re talking about messages, this is what makes TLJ a sequel to the OT, and not just part of a soft reboot. Rather than reintroduce the same themes to a new audience in a new coat of paint, it actively builds on the core lessons from those films, adding nuance to their ideals of heroism and redemption. Reinforcing Luke Skywalker as heroic because of who he was, not what he should have/would have/could have been. Of course the OT can stand on its own as good messages without any sequels, but there are sequels now and TLJ does more than make what it can out of it. It doesn’t mimic the OT, it fleshes out what it means to follow their example in a messy real world, but also why it’s important to, even when it seems fruitless.

I know it’s off topic and I’m repeating myself, but I wish some people would at least acknowledge what it’s trying to do. Even if they’re not a fan of it. Honestly just put this post in General Discussion if you have to.

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

For starters, Luke is not conflicted at all in this film about what he did to Ben. Hence, not the conflict. Not rehashed. (he even says this to ben: “you here to save my soul?” “nope”)

It’s all about the aftermath of that failure. And it’s about how failure doesn’t define you. How what you’ve done doesn’t dictate what you can do, how you aren’t your past, you’re your future. It stops relegating responsibility for heroism on a character arc or bloodline or the light side or the dark - and on people. Their choices and their actions. Luke Skywalker as the son who loved his father, not a heroic Jedi who defeated Vader and the Emperor.

Luke taking responsibility as who he was, the boy looking out at the horizon, and not the pretty story he became as Luke the Legend - reinforces those ideals. Are there other things they could have done? Of course, but this isn’t bad at all. It’s an idealistic human message that I think we missed out on when Vader died. Redemption is about moving on with every mistake as a part of yourself. Not atoning for or running away from your past. Moving forward. Star Wars isn’t the superhero story TROS seems to think it was; it was always the little guys standing up to the big impossible odds, thrust into a world larger than themselves. Luke’s arc here reinforces that spirit. Making him a superhero wouldn’t not work, but it’s cheaper than understanding the humanity behind his actions.

I guess, if anything TLJ says “regression doesn’t exist” and holding the world to that standard is what leads to disappointment and cynicism. That’s a mature take on heroic idealism that I’m glad Star Wars grappled with at least once before becoming mindless nonsense. That even if you and everything you’re fighting against lets you down or becomes harder to fight, doesn’t mean you should give up. In fact, that’s why you should continue. And you will have to, because there is no happily ever after.

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

FreezingTNT2 said:

The filmmakers could’ve given Luke a different motivation for staying on Ahch-To, while not having him be out-of-character, contradictory to his already-established character traits (like redeeming other family members) or undoing his arc from the original trilogy so they can re-do that arc all over again. I mean, why would he be looking for the first Jedi temple, as mentioned by Han in The Force Awakens?

the fact that people think “redeeming family members” is a character trait and not an action of pure good shows that it needed to be told this way xP

it’s not redo-ing a character arc if he learns and develops further than the original lesson

the fact that it’s “again” is pretty integral to the film

the fact that it’s as out of character as it is for him, is pretty integral to the film

why would luke exile himself for any less of a failure? he failed his nephew and all his students in one night, out of an instinct he believed he overcame all those years ago. that’s the failure he feels so deeply

this is like something that worked the best in TLJ, removing it just confuses luke’s arc and makes him kind of unlikable.

if he sees han’s death, then he just gave up to let that happen? if he doesn’t instinctually think to kill ben, then his exile becomes uncharacteristically irresponsible and cowardly?

the way it is in the theatrical is consistent with the idealist we know and love from the OT, i dont think changing it does the film any favors. he feels responsibility deeply and holds his principles to a high standard. he wouldn’t abandon them just because

TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.

Not that I’m going to use this, but anyone who saw the earlier versions remember when it ended like this? I just found the file for it on my old hard drive, and thought I could put it up here again if anyone liked the idea:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Rp6b16RgvPFdxaRXdKG0cXmA-55lyXws/view?usp=sharing

The film’s pacing and style just shifts drastically with it, which is why I didn’t end up keeping it. And now that TROS uses this soundtrack in its ending, I’d rather not anyway. But this could probably be used for some 3-in-1 edit in this style, where the pacing would probably be equivalent to this throughout.

…

The original ending is more than fine. I should be done with this whole edit soon.
Here’s a go at trying to have Obi-Wan initially want to help Anakin out of the fire at the end of their duel:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YjwftQIt-rpTluDVkP5NRnBhNodfSQxb/view?usp=sharing

StarkillerAG said:

It seems like I dislike this movie for the same reason that many people like it: the underlying message of hopelessness.

Luke is actually a depressed hermit instead of a noble hero. Sacrificing yourself for the greater good is actually not a good thing. It doesn’t matter if the Resistance loses and everyone dies, because some Harry Potter cosplayers will rise to defeat whatever fascist government is in charge at that point. For a franchise all about heroism and the light beating the dark, TLJ sure loves to portray heroism as the wrong choice every time. I used to love this movie because of the subversions, but now that I think about it I realize that the subversions actively harm the thematic structure of the saga.

Not really.

Everything you’ve mentioned is more of a TROS criticism, if anything. TLJ says the opposite about pretty much all of your points. Which is interesting.

i wanna die

hey i haven’t done this in a bit it feels good to be home