Testing out a color grade for the final version…
Testing out a color grade for the final version…
It’s the conduit through which a lot of Legends stuff is somewhat canonized, basically. Things like Delta Squad or Quinlan Vos were in the show as references to the larger EU at the time. Without The Clone Wars remaining canon, certain things and characters would only be Legends now. It’s the middle of a Venn Diagram.
I kind of find it ironic given how TCW used to get flack for ignoring the EU to do its own thing. Now it’s the only canon media keeping a lot of that EU a part of the main lore.
I wish they were finishing Crystal Crisis instead, to be honest.
They might make it into a comic or a novel like they did with some of the Maul episodes and the conclusion to Ventress’ arc. I think I read somewhere that Lucasfilm still treats these stories as canon, so it would be strange if they didn’t do anything with them at all in the future. Wasn’t there also a Boba Fett vs Cad Bane episode that’s still unfinished?
Well Crystal Crisis was just as completed as Bad Batch was - in animatics form - all those years ago. Fully voiced, foley’d, and storyboarded. The other incomplete arcs never got that far, which is why they were adapted into other media. If they were going to finish off either CC or BB, I would have preferred CC, that’s all I was saying. Adapting it into a book or comic would be a downgrade from its current form.
Bad Batch is fun, but that’s about it. Meanwhile, there’s good character stuff in Crystal Crisis between Anakin and Obi-Wan that directly works off of season 5 and plays into Revenge of the Sith, and probably the final Ahsoka episodes. More than clone trooper A-Team.
I wish they were finishing Crystal Crisis instead, to be honest.
I was actually thinking about a Save The Reveal edit in relation to my own the other day! If you cut the last half of New Canon Cut pertaining to Anakin, with some tweaks, you could easily create an edit where it doesn’t seem like Anakin turns to the dark side - without having to remove most of those early scenes.
Here’s proof of concept using clips from my edit:
Right off the bat, Anakin’s established as totally understanding of the Jedi’s POV on Palpatine, and even lobbies their concerns. Rather than being all-in on Palps, he just has faith that he isn’t as bad as the Jedi think he is. By removing his petulance and entitlement, his lashing out at Padme, he’s allowed to be at odds with the council without explicitly telegraphing a turn. It becomes an understandable wariness, not lingering darkness. Palpatine trying to turn Anakin against Padme is a key point, because with the next scene, it doesn’t necessarily work. Anakin will brood about it, but by instead confiding in Padme tenderly about his dreams, he rejects that manipulation. New Canon Cut puts him at a crossroads of two equally possible decisions, but have Anakin apologizing to Obi-Wan after everything, and it looks more like Anakin has come back around to the Jedi’s perspective. Especially if the last time we see him, he’s going to turn Palpatine in. The groundwork for the ESB reveal is still laid, but it’s not obvious.
EDIT: But I agree that this isn’t necessary especially since the best parts of ROTS are in the last act. I also think flashbacks to TPM and AOTC definitely don’t need to happen. 95% of the prequel story is in ROTS imo, not just 80. The context that would be missing is pretty irrelevant and sometimes works against the film.
Thanks to everyone who has given me feedback so far in private topics! I think when the new season of TCW ends, I’ll have a final version done. It’s now less about experimenting and doubling down on and polishing the decisions I’ve made that have worked for people.
So far the biggest things to fix:
I’m still open to feedback for the current version!
On the topic of Finn/Poe is there a way we could edit Poe’s moment with Zorii and give it to him and Finn instead?
EDIT: actually that would play as too funny to be any kind of earnest payoff for that possible romance lmao
Alright, I now have a cut with my most recent ideas available, PM for link. I’d want the final version to be along these lines but obviously I’ll need feedback. So it would be greatly appreciated!
A couple notes/thoughts about my own edit:
I started from scratch this year. Plenty of my old decisions from old versions are present pretty much exactly as they were, but quite a bit is different. And because I’m no longer editing with Labyrinth of Evil (I’m still pulling from it, just doing it myself), some of the minor decisions made there are not here. You’ll still hear battle droids and clones. The original crawl is intact.
Returning to fan editing was inspired in part by showing my little cousin the prequels over the holidays. There are things I retained simply because he liked/remembered them. He’s 10.
I wanted to do a color grade like in previous versions but I figure I should wait until I have something locked down. Also everything I was coming up with was browner than I would have liked.
I don’t think I fixed the storytelling as much as I changed the story, if that makes sense. What this has over the theatrical isn’t that it’s less “cringe” or is paced more mercifully/flows better. It’s become a somewhat radical edit - the characters are not really the same as the ones in the theatrical. They feel more like real, emotional people with character arcs. I’m particularly happy with how Padme comes across now.
As far as fitting in with The Clone Wars - I don’t know what the new season will bring. But this works far better with what we have of the series so far than the theatrical. I will say, Christensen’s Anakin might actually come off as a nicer guy than Lanter’s here. This is because if I let Christensen be as badly tempered as Lanter, his relationship with Obi-Wan and the council became much less like the one in TCW. (Not to mention Hayden doesn’t pull it off with the same flavor of intensity.) If I committed to fully pacifying Christensen, it made him bland and more easily pushed around. It was a balancing act, and you have to account for how other characters treat him, not just the man himself. NCC!Anakin in that way feels slightly more influenced by OT!Anakin than TCW!Anakin. But it still fits.
I’m thinking about renaming this, since I don’t know if I care about “New Canon” anymore after Rise of Skywalker. It’s still TCW-based obviously - with the consistency of character this sought to achieve - but TCW being a part of Disney’s canon doesn’t seem to mean much anymore. Maybe something more ROTJ-inspired, since it more directly ties into that,
i forgot qui gonn
i wish the kashyyk thing was better implemented
Shopping Maul said:
Shopping Maul said:
Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption?
He didn’t, we tolerated it because Vader was well written and it was easier for us to feel that his love for his son was enough to make him turn back.
At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict.
Mm, this is an odd one. Vader had many more layers than Kylo. Vader was always in conflict, he was a slave to the dark side. Kylo chose to be the monster he became and I honestly don’t think the movies gave us reasons for him to have let darkness grown inside of him.
But that’s not true according to the OT. Vader was a straight up bad guy in ANH - choking dudes to death, torturing princesses, killing Obi Wan (quite happily I add - “this will be a day long remembered…”), and shooting down X-Wings. In TESB he relentlessly pursues the rebels, kills his subordinates for human error, tortures Han and Leia to get Luke’s attention, and finally gives Luke a ‘join me or die’ ultimatum (“don’t make me destroy you”).
Only in ROTJ is it suggested that Vader had ‘good in him’, and that was purely because Luke (see Lucas) suddenly decided it was so.
I agree Kylo had no backstory whatsoever, but the conflict within him is/was evident from the get-go. Vader had given himself over to darkness and was pretty comfortable with it in the OT. Kylo was not so adept at evil. In fact the way way Adam Driver played Kylo was how I wish Anakin had been played in the prequels, a truly conflicted soul. That “I want to be free of this pain” moment in TFA had more raw emotion in it than all three prequels put together.
By the way I’m not against Vader’s redemption at all, in fact I thought it was a great idea. I just hate Luke’s POV. I do not understand why Luke was suddenly all gushy about Dad in ROTJ, nor do I understand why this took precedence over everything else that was going on. I’d have preferred a darker movie - one where Luke would be disillusioned with the whole Jedi thing (having been lied to by everyone concerned) and Vader’s turnaround would be a nice surprise while Luke was busy doing everything in his power to defeat Palpatine. But that’s just me. I cannot fathom why saving a war-criminal’s soul would make anyone a legend.
I mean, Luke’s primary influence from the moment he joins Ben in ANH - is his father’s legacy. He wants to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like his father. From that, he essentially follows the path his dad took, right down to when he brushes with the dark side in ESB. He ignores Yoda and Ben’s warnings by rushing in to confront Vader, and save his friends.
That’s when he sees an outcome of following that quick and easy path - Darth Vader - and is faced with making different choices than his father. By ROTJ, Luke has empathy for Vader because he finds that by following his father, he is Vader. He’s more or less been where he’s been. Everything he believed about his father had to be true at one point, but then he took a wrong turn somewhere, which Luke after ESB understands now more than anyone.
It definitely has potential to be naivete, but Luke ends up being right. The idealism that it is, is what makes him a legend. The fact that you, and probably many others in the galaxy, would become disillusioned where Luke didn’t is the point. That doesn’t really say anything about how you personally would have preferred the movie to go, but that’s the theme. It makes sense and isn’t “sudden.” ROTJ just contextualizes the previous set-up. Not that it couldn’t have gone in a different direction - that who knows, I might have preferred myself - but pretty much all the heavy lifting for it is done in the prior two films.
some of you all really missed out on your emo high school romances and it shows
On the contrary, I’d argue TLJ would land for more people if it was decidedly less Star Wars in genre/tone. Not that it would be better, but I think I think it would be more broadly appreciated if it owned the fact that it’s not a typical Star Wars story.
TLJ still tries to externally maintain itself as this classic Star Wars adventure, with quippy one liners from our spunky heroes, weird and wacky aliens, and of course the recycled imagery. The tone is there, the genre pastiche is there - and it works for the people it works for because beneath that surface, there’s much more going on. But if you don’t engage with the film in that way, I imagine it must feel quite pointless.
TLJ uses the Star Wars tone to inform its metanarrative, but a lot of it is about transposing classical ideals invoked by that tone onto a harsher reality. What does it mean to be Luke Skywalker after happily ever after? What does it really mean to fight for what you believe when the odds are stacked against you? Again I’m not saying it would be better, but the heart of the film would become more apparent to more people if it was heavy handed about “not being like Star Wars.” To some of my friends, TLJ was just a disappointing plot. And the plot wasn’t really the point, was it?
The deconstruction from the base of “Star Wars film” is what makes it smart and postmodern, but perhaps it would be more broadly received if it, like, tried to be The Dark Knight of Star Wars. Then I bet some 14 year olds* would have been blown away by Luke’s portrayal as opposed to thinking he was just shafted for bad reasons. Just a more obviously Not Star Wars affair to get people in a different mindset. More people would get into it for being different because it would feel different. I bet the people who like TLJ as it is now wouldn’t like it as much. Me included. But I would never know, would I?
This isn’t to say TLJ as it is, is at its core a bad Star Wars movie - I’d say it’s the only one in the ST with anything that builds on the OT’s themes. I just think it’s a shame Star Wars is such a brand, and not a series of stories now. TLJ leaned into the brand so that it could tell a new story. The Mando leaned into the old stories to be branded a little differently. I understand the mindset and it gave us TLJ, but I don’t feel as excited about the possibilities of the universe any more.
*not necessarily in age
@idir: In the theatrical “It’s a system we cannot afford to lose” already implies that there is a Republic presence on Kashyyk before Yoda ever goes there, so this feeling more like a resuming of hostilities rather than initial invasion works okay enough.
I can definitely extend the scene because there is more of the battle I can use from Order 66, but I specifically want to use the Wookiee D-Day shot later because it helps with an audio transition there. Besides I like how it serendipitous-ly has some storytelling going on. It kind of portrays a wookiee morale boost after Yoda has arrived.
As far as the jarring cut, would a wipe and/or planet shot help or anything? The original music transition is in itself already jarring - I literally didn’t do anything but fade it into the Invasion music - so it didn’t bother me too much that it felt very sudden.
Meh, I prefer having a not yet contextualized inciting incident, as opposed to this plot point casually dropped in a scene that felt like it ended already. I really don’t like how “What about the droid attack on the wookiees?” just comes out of nowhere in the council scene, and that’s what takes Yoda out of Coruscant.
It didn’t feel like anything we needed to be paying attention to. The focus felt like it should be on Anakin sitting in on the council meeting after rejection, they’re doing business as usual - defeat of Grevious ends the war, “the outlying systems you must sweep,” etc. It’s just off to me that this important point is just dropped for the first time there.
At least even if we don’t know what this Kashyyk scene is about yet, it clearly starts a new plot, and makes it feel like the later council meeting is actually following up on something. They’re discussing events we the audience saw. It honestly flows better to me this way, having the set up and payoff happen from beginning to end with everything else. Rather than in the middle of the film.
I use the original transition later to break up the mototony of the political stuff, and its placement implies that Palpatine is who gives Anakin his nightmares.
Thx, I really only post the iffiest stuff I’m currently working on, since I need to see what exactly is really stretching it. Finding a way to end that part of the conversation is definitely what I was having a lot of trouble with. Where does it start to get weird?
I could always leave it hanging until Padme changes the subject. Rearrange the lines a little more optimally.
As far as Hayden’s voice, it’s not a different accent he’s just inflecting more than the monotone we’re used to, which I think is better tbh.
i’ll be the editor brave enough to edit in full penetration, just you all wait. it’ll fix everything
edit: would you believe i immediately regretted posting this
Here’s another preview of earlier on in the edit:
[removed to be tweaked]
I rescored Anakin and Padme meeting for the first time in the film, with the score from when they were really meeting for the first time in TPM. It’s a good callback, and TPM has my favorite prequel soundtrack anyway (don’t @me). It also lends itself to their conversation, it evokes those same feelings of innocence and possibility that having a child can give. Anakin is happy, it’s a happy moment!
Anakin turns to the dark side for Padme, their relationship has to be painted as this good thing, not the possessive and jealous affair it is in the theatrical.
After is where I put the droid attack on the wookiees. It sets up Yoda going there later, and I needed a buffer in between the reunion and the next scene… Anakin and Padme on the balcony discussing where on Naboo they want to bring the baby. (gardens, beautiful bc love, etc.)
Jumping straight into the politics like in previous cuts/Hal’s almost undid some of the endearment I built to Anakin’s character at the start, so I wanted to ease us into Coruscant life by letting Anakin be with Padme a little more. He’s in love, he laughs - he doesn’t go straight into supporting a would-be dictator, and there’s more to him than just his strife. He’s about to become a father!
“Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough…”
In the establishing shots of the scene, instead of Anakin just staring at Padme, I’ve spliced together the end of a conversation between the two about giving their child his lightsaber. This further ties the film into the original trilogy, specifically those lines Old Ben has to Luke when he gives him the saber. By depicting Anakin as an excited soon-to-be dad, that sets up father and son’s later connection a lot better. In the theatrical, the child seems almost like an afterthought, if not a massive inconvenience. Here, it shows Anakin does what he does not just for Padme, but his family.
I’m just going to adjust the levels a bit on the “Don’t ask me to do that” and “I’m so sorry” (or just remove it, I’ll see how people receive it), and add that dramatic cue Chips suggested for Obi’s appearance. This should more or less be the last thing I figure out before I have a workprint ready.
I like the movie and even I think it’s unwieldy and unclear, for the record. It is a not great scene. But it thematically tracks to me regardless of if Luke was coming or not. Rose was saving a guy she cared for in a human act of desperation. “The cause” in such a moment is so muddled by survival instinct - it didn’t matter more than saving/being with the people she loved. The idea is that that is a more pure intention than destroying an enemy, and how we care for each other is where good comes from. “How we’ll win.” Those acts can add up to true heroism, saving lives and not further taking them.
This pursuit of a fight to end all fights, the concept of a war to be won and an ending to be reached, are some of the things TLJ wants to show is an unrealistic, bad goal. Finn and Poe’s stories throughout the film are supposed to be examples of actions made towards those goals. The fact that Finn would/could have done damage and bought time is irrelevant to the message, because his sacrifice would be a selfish one. Motivated by anger and validation. That’s what the scene is about, but it just doesn’t do anything to stop people from thinking about its mathematical yields compared to other sacrifices. Which is ultimately its problem.
(altho that skimmer was fucked imo idk how you guys thought he was going to succeed)
^yeah, I think that’s what I’ll go with
here’s how it is rn:
redemption is a lie
I definitely agree with most of that. Although having “Don’t you turn against me” as calmer was a deliberate choice on my part. I like the idea that Darth Vader suppresses his conflict and emotion and channels it into power and focus. I mean, Palpatine even says that’s what Anakin does in the film itself, and this keeps Anakin in line with how cognizant he is in this cut. He’s able to be a monster in the theatrical because he’s become unhinged and confused, not fully aware he’s been tricked into believing the wrong things - but since that’s not the case here, I wanted to convey that he “lives” with his actions by numbing himself to his pain, converting it all into more “dark side energy” I guess.
I tried a few more combinations/tweaks of the scene, here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fOAkWnTBHBnO42CDxT0rjBF3thUOZ6qa/view
About the Dreadnought destruction:
In the moment it isn’t heroic. There’s a shot of Poe looking at Paige’s bomber falling into a fiery inferno and he does a sad face.
And then while everyone’s celebrating on the cruiser, Leia looks at the death toll and sighs.
The movie’s take on self sacrifice is: Useless self-sacrifice is bad. Paige didn’t need to die. If the battle had gone differently, she would have lived.
Her sacrifice is only useless until it is revealed that hyperspace tracking is a thing, making their destruction of the fleet-killer retroactively heroic and vinticating Poe’s actions. Kinda muddles the message there.
Holdo needed to destroy the Supremacy and only had one way to do it.
Actually she needed to destroy all of the Star Destroyers and had a one-in-a-million chance of doing it. It’s a good thing she lucked out, because if even a single Destroyer was left operational, hindsight would have made her death a ‘useless self sacrifice’. Kidna muddles the message there.
Finn’s self sacrifice wasn’t needed because it wouldn’t have changed anything.
I mean, it might have. He had better odds than Holdo, anyway. Kinda muddles the message there.
So in the first instance heroic sacrifice is bad (wasting life and equipment on bad odds), even when it is later revealed that this sacrifice saved everyone.
In the second, heroic sacrifice is good, even when it wastes life and equipment on even worse odds.
In the third, heroic sacrifice is again bad, and I don’t even need to know the odds because they are surely better than rolling a thousand natural 20’s on a total enemy kill.
The theme of TLJ is that noble sacrifice is bad when it isn’t worth the cost. Great. It’s just too bad that the text of the film contradicts and muddles that message at every turn.
Thinking about it that way muddles a message, but it’s less about the mathematical yield of heroism than it is the intentions behind your actions. Poe went after the Dreadnought to deal his enemies a blow, and Finn after the cannon to prove he cared, to “not let them win.”
I actually disagree that the message is about whether sacrifice is useless or useful or what have you. It’s about why you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, and with. Regardless of if Finn would’ve done anything, his possible death is supposed to be a bummer. He would have died alone when everyone else already decided they’d find another way or die together. Work towards a future, not an ends.
TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.
Would you be able to show some examples of that? Because TLJ is pretty much a de-construction of Star Wars hero narrative. There are no heroes in TLJ.
- The Jedi are corrupted, Luke stepped away because of it and because of it he could not be the hero Rey wanted him to be;
- The resistance is just as crooked as the “bad guys” from the first order, buying black market weapons to fund their ideology;
- Poe is a wrong doer who doesn’t care about the lives of his comrades, only glory;
- Rey couldn’t be a hero, since wan’t trained and by the end of the movie she is still holding on to the prospects of someone taking her in as a pupil;
- Finn tries an act of heroism, the movie stops him;
- Holdo does an act of heroism, but she wasn’t written as a likeable character. Constantly opposing the characters the audience knew and loved (poe);
Personally I don’t see any acts of heroism in TLJ, simply because the stakes aren’t that high in the movie.
Well, the old “idealism and cyncism are not actually opposites” conversation applies here. You can’t deconstruct if you didn’t understand, you don’t become disillusioned without having ideals in the first place. And idealism is just being cynical enough to stand up and take action when no one else will, anyway. They feed into each other - without one another it’s just hopeless pessimism, or naivete.
I’ve discussed this at length on the board before, so forgive me anyone who has to endure this again, but to me TLJ only reinforces heroism by putting heroic idealism through the ringer. Yes, it seems like those traditional examples are more or less refuted in some way - but that complicated tightrope to do the right thing is what makes heroism strong and noble. Even as far back as ESB, the dark side is dangerous because of how easy it is. Fear, anger, hatred, etc. It won’t look like evil incarnate, it’ll seduce your good intentions, exploit your selfish desires.
It is the pursuit of “doing a heroic act” that is a “trick of a dark side”, if you want to look at it that way. Poe and Finn were just looking for a fight, a last stand like in those stories, without understanding what made them heroic in the first place. All heroism really takes is making the right purely good choice in the face of disillusionment.
It’s clumsy, but TLJ reminds us how “we won” in ROTJ. Luke as the son who loved his father, not a Jedi who defeated the Emperor and Vader. Vader not as a Sith Lord who became uncorrupted, but a broken man who realized he still had a choice. The elements that tend to be focused on in those narratives is the sacrifice, the Jedi, the light and the dark - but TLJ brings it back to the people behind it, just making choices. To save the ones they loved.
TLJ doesn’t say, “hey if the bad guys are winning, just give up and run!” It does say, “if the bad guys are winning, that’s why you should keep fighting! live another day” Because there is no endpoint, no perfect character arc or happily ever after. Believing there is, is what leads to disappointment. TLJ fleshes out what it means to follow the OT’s example in a messy real world. It deconstructs by showing us that always lingering element of futility - but comes back to reinforce the value of standing up to it over and over again no matter what. The future as more important than "the end."
The stakes being low(er) emphasizes how noble deeds don’t have to be relegated to one big hero in one big moment. Waiting for one is the wrong move, when we all have the capability for greatness in ourselves. Your heroes are just like you, anyway. Being a hero isn’t a job title, nor is it an exclusive club for “legends.” Our small choices together can make a big impact.