Mrebo

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

CatBus said:

https://twitter.com/JohnCornyn/status/954739322388930562

Not enough facepalms in the world. I don’t know what’s worse: that after a US Senator was informed he was personally helping spread Russian propaganda, the Senator’s first instinct was to pretend he wasn’t just personally implicated and yell “Fake News!” at the media, or that, for his followers, that’s probably a good enough reaction.

Favorite Twitter response to his suggestion that “the Press” in particular needs to work to avoid spreading so much Russian propaganda on Twitter:

Funny. Most people only use one “s” when abbreviating “president.”

I don’t see any allegation of “Fake News!” here.

“All of us need to step up to meet this challenge, especially the Press”

Emphasis mine. So he’s saying the press are more susceptible to Fake News than others, even when the evidence was just handed to him about who needs to take the most care.

We should keep in mind what counts here as “personally helping spread Russian propaganda”: something as small as liking a tweet that might have been put forward by a Russian agent. I don’t attribute lots of blame to a person who likes a tweet, worse retweets it, or horror-of-horrors follows the account that says stuff that sounds good.

Might have been put forward by a Russian agent? Might? Hm. Liking and following add legitimacy, especially when you’re a public figure who supposedly knows enough to distinguish facts from propaganda.

I think these kinds of attempts by foreign powers are feeble.

It doesn’t matter if they can’t fool people who know their ass from their elbow (on the left and right), it matters that they can apparently fool certain Senators and Presidents with ease.

Your reading on the “Fake News” angle is probably right.

I’d be curious to know what the tweets/accounts said. In gauging blame I think it matters.

Representatives of foreign governments meet with members of Congress all the time to push for/against policies. Consider how many members hit a legislative “like” button by voting in a way that aligns with what the foreign government wants. The idea that a foreign government’s agent might tweet something a legislator likes or retweets seems more innocuous.

TV’s Frink said:

You do realize “the media” includes plenty of right-wing outlets, right? Including a giant oneml that’s as biased as any media outlet out there? Also includes plenty of people doing actual objective journalism.

Yep.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

oojason said:

‘From New York to Seattle, check out these aerial views of the Women’s March across the country’

article - http://cnn.it/2DuCjg4’

Aerial views - https://twitter.com/CNN/status/954900635316576256

Also see the March for Life!

Fuck those assholes.

Sorry you feel that way.

moviefreakedmind said:

The Republican Party deserves to be blamed for a lot of things. It’s been so destructive for so long that I’m never going to be shedding any tears over how “mean” the media is being to it.

I don’t expect anyone to shed tears or feel sorry for a political party. Maybe for the lack of fair and objective media. If the media wished to hold the Democratic Party to account on the same terms for the destructive things it has done, I think that would be a much better state of affairs.

oojason said:

‘From New York to Seattle, check out these aerial views of the Women’s March across the country’

article - http://cnn.it/2DuCjg4’

Aerial views - https://twitter.com/CNN/status/954900635316576256

Also see the March for Life!

CatBus said:

https://twitter.com/JohnCornyn/status/954739322388930562

Not enough facepalms in the world. I don’t know what’s worse: that after a US Senator was informed he was personally helping spread Russian propaganda, the Senator’s first instinct was to pretend he wasn’t just personally implicated and yell “Fake News!” at the media, or that, for his followers, that’s probably a good enough reaction.

Favorite Twitter response to his suggestion that “the Press” in particular needs to work to avoid spreading so much Russian propaganda on Twitter:

Funny. Most people only use one “s” when abbreviating “president.”

I don’t see any allegation of “Fake News!” here. When he says, “All of us need to step up,” I think he is clearly including himself and Congress. However he is engaged in damage control as he is placing responsibility on social media companies and the press to weed out these attempts by foreign powers too. I think he is saying the press needs to help identify these efforts by foreign powers.

We should keep in mind what counts here as “personally helping spread Russian propaganda”: something as small as liking a tweet that might have been put forward by a Russian agent. I don’t attribute lots of blame to a person who likes a tweet, worse retweets it, or horror-of-horrors follows the account that says stuff that sounds good.

We have found out that Russia was spending money to advance all kinds of issues, including ads ostensibly for Black Lives Matter. People all over America unwittingly spread Russian propaganda. And that’s never going to change. I think these kinds of attempts by foreign powers are feeble. Greater awareness is probably the best we can do.

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

but the predominant story in the media is that its all Republicans fault because they’re the majority party.

That’s what you get for being the party of Trump.

Warbs, blaming the Republican Party is a pastime of the media. I wish this was something new that started with Trump’s election.

Gosh darn lamestream crooked no good biased media ammirte?

The sentiment is right anyway.

TV’s Frink said:

And since there is nothing Trump has said or done in 2016, '17, or '18 that isn’t contradicted directly by something he said or did in a previous year, there’s this.

https://www.snopes.com/trump-criticize-obama-shutdown/

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/398887965302091776?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.snopes.com%2Ftrump-criticize-obama-shutdown%2F

Leadership: Whatever happens, you’re responsible. If it doesn’t happen, you’re responsible.
11:01 AM - 8 Nov 2013

Chuck is in good company.

Warbler said:

Mrebo said:

but the predominant story in the media is that its all Republicans fault because they’re the majority party.

That’s what you get for being the party of Trump.

Warbs, blaming the Republican Party is a pastime of the media. I wish this was something new that started with Trump’s election.

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Good. Democrats need to stand up for what is right, since Republicans never will.

During the 2013 shutdown, Chuck Schumer said:

I believe in immigration reform. What if I persuaded my caucus to say I’m going to shut the government down, I’m going to not pay our bills unless I get my way. It’s a politics of idiocy, of confrontation, of paralysis.

It’s fun to find examples of hypocrisy like this, even if one thinks Schumer is/was wrong.

Luckily Schumer has no power to shut the government down. Even if he convinces every Democrat to go along with him, the Republicans can keep the government running, if they want to. Such is the power of the minority party, post-filibuster.

The filibuster still exists. That’s why the funding bill isn’t progressing.

Ah forgot they hadn’t axed it yet for spending bills. But then, if they can remove that filibuster with a simple majority vote just like all the filibusters they’ve already removed, you wonder why they’re not just doing it like they did any time they got tripped up with any of the others.

I think some still believe in the Senate as an institution, the value of compromise, or just fear the future of Democrats using unfettered power in the future. It is strange we’re not hearing much on the filibuster in this context. I had honestly forgotten the state of the filibuster too, but the predominant story in the media is that its all Republicans fault because they’re the majority party.

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Good. Democrats need to stand up for what is right, since Republicans never will.

During the 2013 shutdown, Chuck Schumer said:

I believe in immigration reform. What if I persuaded my caucus to say I’m going to shut the government down, I’m going to not pay our bills unless I get my way. It’s a politics of idiocy, of confrontation, of paralysis.

It’s fun to find examples of hypocrisy like this, even if one thinks Schumer is/was wrong.

Luckily Schumer has no power to shut the government down. Even if he convinces every Democrat to go along with him, the Republicans can keep the government running, if they want to. Such is the power of the minority party, post-filibuster.

The filibuster still exists. That’s why the funding bill isn’t progressing.

If it didn’t that wouldn’t excuse every single legislator from doing their job. Schumer once claimed what the Democrats are doing now to be wrong. If Democrats want to hold up government funding in order to try to force a compromise (or just headlines) on immigration, that’s fine. But pointing out the absolute hypocrisy is at least fun.

TV’s Frink said:

Good. Democrats need to stand up for what is right, since Republicans never will.

During the 2013 shutdown, Chuck Schumer said:

I believe in immigration reform. What if I persuaded my caucus to say I’m going to shut the government down, I’m going to not pay our bills unless I get my way. It’s a politics of idiocy, of confrontation, of paralysis.

It’s fun to find examples of hypocrisy like this, even if one thinks Schumer is/was wrong.

Collipso said:

Mrebo said:

Rey holds the lightsaber toward Luke who looks at her with great emotion.

“Who are you?” Luke asks with astonishment.

“My name is Rey. Leia wanted me to find you…and I wanted to find you.”

Luke is startled. “How did you find me?”

“We found a map, part of it in an old droid.”

“R2?” Luke asks, processing this information.

Rey nods, “and here is your lightsaber.”

Luke takes the weapon, looks at his skeletal robotic hand and back at the weapon.

“You have come to take me away from here?” Luke asks.

“If you will leave, yes.” Rey answers.

“If? If I want to leave?” Luke asks. Luke looks to the sea, the rocks, the small pesky birds. Rey can’t tell if Luke is laughing or crying.

Luke recovers. “Come with me. Not a moment out of my sight. I need to gather my belongings.”

Luke keeps an eye on Rey as they trek to his small stone hut. Inside there is little of note, ragged clothes, some ancient books, stone carvings and drawings. Luke packs the books into a satchel and looks around the hut as if for the last time. “Let’s go, Rey.”

~-~-~-~

Luke’s mouth is agape looking at the Falcon. “Han let you take his ship?”

Before Rey can answer, Chewie exits the ramp and looks up to see Luke. Their eyes meet and Luke holds back tears as the truth hits him. Luke goes to his old friend and hugs him. “I’m so sorry. How did it happen?”

Chewie barks mournfully and Luke’s countenance darkens.

“Ben? He- I can’t believe he would do that. He was….I need to see Leia.”

Chewie, Luke, and Rey quickly board the ship and leave the planet.

~-~-~-~

The Resistance Fleet is under attack by First Order ships. “How did they find us?” Leia demands.

“I can’t fathom it, Ma’am,” responds a command officer. “We don’t have the firepower to win this battle.”

“Prepare all ships to make another jump. I will transmit the jump location personally to the captains of the other ships.”

Leia taps in the coded transmission and in a moment the Resistance fleet jumps to hyperspace and after a brief span of time reenters normal space.

In short order the First Order ships are upon them again.

“Impossible!” yells Admiral Ackbar.

Leia looks angrily at the ships. “They are tracking us through hyperspace. We have no choice but to fight.

~-~-~-~

On board the Falcon, Luke is seated next to R2. “I missed you too, but you wouldn’t have enjoyed being on the island. And you had 3PO to think about.”

R2 whistles doubtfully.

Luke smiles and works at cleaning the droid, finding comfort in the task.

Rey appears confused by the attention Luke pays to the droid. “Master Skywalker, the reason I volunteered to find you is to learn about the Force.”

Luke turns his attention from R2 to Rey. “There are many texts that speak of the Force, you don’t need me.”

Rey swallows hard. “There are things I can do, things I have seen and know…and I don’t know why.”

“Tell me what you have seen,” Luke says with intense interest.

The ship is rocked as if by laser fire. Chewie roars from the cockpit. Rey and Luke run down the corridor.

Looking out from the cockpit they are in the midst of a great battle. A looming dreadnought and several Star Destroyers are exchanging fire with Resistance ships.

Squadrons of X-Wings speed past the Falcon toward the First Order ships.

“Get to the command ship,” Luke points at the biggest Resistance ship, the Raddus.

The Millenium Falcon docks with the Raddus and Luke is the first down the ramp where Leia is waiting. They embrace.

“Luke, where have you been?” Leia asks, looking at him intently.

“Ben.” Luke answers. “Ben stranded me, where nobody, not even his Master Snoke could find me. He did it to protect me.”

“Ben killed Han,” Leia responds.

Luke nods, “I can still save him, Leia.”

Leia smiles sadly, but doesn’t answer.

~-~-~-~

Boy this is good

Thank you much. In addition to improving Luke’s characterization and role in TLJ, I think it reforms and makes elements in the TFA more compelling. For example, Kylo fears that Snoke will find the map so he goes to Lor San Tekka, to whom Kylo gave part of the map. In that context, the dialogue has double meaning and San Tekka believes he is playing along to some extent, though still trying to pull Kylo back. Kylo, in his own twisted way, decides he must kill San Tekka to protect the map - instead of taking him prisoner and torturing him for the location of the map (ie the obvious thing to do). It was sort of the least bad of the evil options available.

This would constitute a meaningful reveal in E9 and it plays into the conflicted nature of Kylo.

A pretty good critical look at Luke’s characterization from someone who really enjoyed the movie. Some good comparisons to the movie “Logan.”

TV’s Frink said:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/01/stormy-daniels-once-claimed-she-spanked-donald-trump-with-a-forbes-magazine/

You’re welcome.

You’re fired.

I share your discontent, Dre. Pretty good article, I agree with the observation that appeals to hope in the film felt hollow.

The Empire podcast was decent, not very deep but gave some insight on RJ’s thinking. The hosts were alright but their gender political take on the film was cringy.

joefavs, I think you’re saying what some of the rest of us are saying. It’s easy to accept that there is not one definitive canon. We don’t need to go into all kinds of gymnastics about it unless we really want to. I consume very little of Star Wars media outside the movies, especially in recent years. So as far as I’m concerned, there is a lot that doesn’t exist. And if you want to insist that there’s a certain character or planet that’s totally canon because it was approved by Disney, I can think that’s malarkey. I’ve never been to Tampa. Maybe it doesn’t exist.

For Jews, the New Testament isn’t canon. And the Catholics use a different Bible than most other Christians. Thomas Jefferson made his own biblical canon. I think we’re entitled to our own Star Wars canon, however we adopt it.

yhwx said:

So… government shutdown, anybody?

A government shutdown isn’t a very big deal. That’s why Democrats feel like risking it over one (non-budget) issue. I’m mostly put off by the media’s disparate treatment of Democrats threatening shutdown compared to the Republicans in 2013.

SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.

What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?

Not to mention, of course, that he does die.

Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.

But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.

I wasn’t fooled at all, but I was on the edge of my seat wondering what is Luke doing? and what is going to happen?.

The movie isn’t trying to fool anyone. All the evidence that something is up with Luke is on the screen. You either notice it or not. All I caught on to first time was the hair color.

Of course the movie isn’t entirely trying to fool the audience - Luke looks different. But it does leave the audience confused and wondering why Luke looks different, or as you say that something is up. Is he actually there but projecting a different appearance? Did he stop at the beauty parlor on his way over? If you guessed he was projecting himself across the galaxy, you get the prize but that was not the only conclusion.

Very well said, hairy_hen, that’s where I am. For me it’s the GOUT. The EU has always been in a provisional category for me, some were good enough for me to almost accept as canon while others I rejected. As Dominic says, it can be tricky (or messy, as seriouscoffee says) to describe our own canon but we don’t need to go through a mechanical process - I think we each have a natural sense of what works for us or not.

Official canon is meaningful to those creating official works. By extension it has meaning to those consuming the works. But George Lucas pulled the curtain back on the significance of canon when he created the Special Editions and Disney did it when it dismissed the old EU on a whim. The PT and ST have been sufficiently disappointing that they remain in a provisional category for me.

If I had billions of dollars and bought Lucasfilm, I could tell you all what the official canon is, including my own new PT and ST movies to replace the old ones.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed. Not only the footprints, but the haircut, hair color and lightsaber totally gave it away for me. That took tension away, which made it all a bit disappointing.

What tension? That he wouldn’t die? Wouldn’t the tension of that be cut anyway when the walkers don’t leave a scratch?

Not to mention, of course, that he does die.

Presumably tension would remain in the showdown with Kylo.

But I imagine most people were fooled, as I was, although confused about Luke’s different look.

Michael Ward said:

Collipso said:

Well I wasn’t fooled by fake Luke not even for a second, but didn’t know how he was doing what he was doing until revealed.

What was he doing again? Was it stalling the First Order so that the 5% of the rebels who Poe hadn’t already gotten killed could sneak out the back even though Luke had no way of knowing that there was a way out the back, and in fact there wasn’t until Rey conveniently created one with the force when she just happened to show up in Falcon which was doubly fortunate since without the Falcon they’d all just be standing around out back waiting to be found an executed?

This was Luke’s plan? Buy the rebels 5 more minutes in hopes that the salvation that’s eluded them the whole movie will show up (now that most them are dead anyway), and of course it does because movie.

I was a moment of madness but it worked out in the end.

chyron8472 said:

Mithrandir said:

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

First of all, I’m not 100% certain it is a dark side power (though it feels very creepy and invasive so probably), I was just saying that we see Kylo Ren has amassed great power in the force, and we assume from the dark side.

Second, that’s not really what Luke does, he sees Ben’s heart, which I imagine is a more opaque image, and then he has a vision of the future.

he seems to be doing the same movement Kylo does when he checks someone’s cell phone

I don’t know what that means.

Search your cellphone, chyron8472, you know it to be true.

darthrush said:

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

SilverWook said:

So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?

That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.

And no offense, but this is one of the reasons I probably won’t be watching any TLJ edits. Everyone wants to cut out things I thought were great.

Alongside that, I think the idea of having Luke burn down the tree is terrible.

I guess we can agree to strongly disagree here 😃

I really feel like that was the point of the scene. I do agree with you technically on one thing and that’s that Luke definitely should have not burned the tree in that moment. Mainly because it would be out of anger and him simply feeling that this will help him “kill the past”. Yoda does burn the tree, but it’s not because he wants to kill the past. He knows what actually matters and wants Luke to look past just a pile of old books and instead look to learn from his past and to cherish his failures and how they have helped him. This is a contrast to Kylo killing the past. And that is ultimately why I feel the books at the end on the Falcon are just another pointless cheap fake out that aren’t worth putting in the film.

But I have discussed this before and definitely see where your coming from! I just interpreted the same content a bit differently I suppose.

The great thing about fanedits is that we can all choose our own interpretations and ignore all the others. 😉

Obviously 😉

I’m just glad TLJ found way to work in Luke using a torch - like in ROTJ - and yet make it totally different because he doesn’t burn anything with it. 😉

TV’s Frink said:

darthrush said:

SilverWook said:

So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?

That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.

And no offense, but this is one of the reasons I probably won’t be watching any TLJ edits. Everyone wants to cut out things I thought were great.

Alongside that, I think the idea of having Luke burn down the tree is terrible.

We agree on something!

darthrush said:

SilverWook said:

So you’d torch the sacred texts without hesitation?

That’s the whole point of the scene. The books don’t matter, “Time to look past a pile of old books” Yoda says. He reminds Luke that the inert desire for every person to do good and use their powers to save others and to learn from failure is all that truly matters. Not the old dogmatic teachings of the jedi. And that is precisely the first thing I’ll be cutting out of the film is the books at the end on the falcon.

On the surface maybe that’s what the scene suggests, but it was actually just another fakeout. Rey saved the books (and Yoda knew it). Luke was having another one of his episodes where he goes to do something crazy all hyped up on emotion and then at the very last minute, maybe, decides not to.