Mrebo

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

Well stand by your opinion then, I doubt you can make any solid case for it.

I was never trying to convince you or anyone else to change their minds. That was never my intention. I merely expressed my opinions, as they are.

Is that what you do? Try to make people 'prove' beyond all doubt that their subjective opinion is right or wrong? Why not debate which is better, chocolate or vanilla ice cream?

Okay, well he does do that. But I happen to agree with him here.

There is a legitimate criticism that you claim RoTJ is worse than 5 other movies...without contrasting them with those 5 movies. Instead you express your opinion about how RoTJ could have been better. You're entitled to think whatever you want (of course), but there is a big gap between what you assert and the reasons for it. To say vanilla ice cream is the worst flavor because it doesn't have chocolate chips in it signifies that you like chocolate chips, not that vanilla is so terrible.

Conceptually and in execution, the PT was a mess. I also pointed out how similar "flaws" you identify exist in other SW movies. RoTJ was fun, made sense, had a lot of great effects, had great emotional scenes (Yoda's death, duel with Vader), and decent to good acting.

bkev said:

If I read this correctly Fox took back the print that the Library had by force and LFL requested they store the 1997 edition which they refused to do. What's funny is if they had taken that, they probably wouldn't have a single film version on-file now and instead be forced to keep a digital copy of the 1080p files or even just simply the blu-ray.

But the LoC Librarian writes:

"When the request was made for STAR WARS, Lucasfilm offered us the Special Edition version. The offer was declined as this was obviously not the version that had been selected for the Registry."

"The Library of Congress does hold the original release versions of STAR WARS, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and RETURN OF THE JEDI, but these 35mm prints were acquired as copyright deposits in March 1978, October 1980, and June 1983 respectively. All three are classified as archival masters and as such cannot be accessed for viewing/research."

Which leads me to believe the LoC does not have the SE and does have the originals, albeit closed to the public.

Wait...what?

According to the article, LoC refused to take SE prints but still has the original prints deposited there. Or am I misreading somewhere?

twooffour said:

sonnyboo said:

xhonzi said:

However, I have to also remind myself that the reviewer is basing this wacky opinion on RotJ2011, which I guess I can maybe start to understand.  Last time I tried to watch RotJ2004, I had to turn it off because it was making me angry instead of happy. 

RIP RotJ1983.

I stand by my opinion that ANY version of RETURN OF THE JEDI is the worst of the 6 movies to me.

None of the "changes" made in 1997, 2004, or 2011 fixed or addressed any of my top 10 reasons why the movie sucks.

Well stand by your opinion then, I doubt you can make any solid case for it.

georgec said:

Luke and Leia weren't meant to be siblings - that was forced into the script. I believe Gary Kurtz gave an interview last year explaining some of the reasons he left during pre-production:

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2010/08/12/star-wars-was-born-a-long-time-ago-but-not-all-that-far-far-away-in-1972-filmmakers-george-lucas-and-gary-kurtz-wer/

Here's another one where Kurtz details the original nine episode arc:

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp

Not turning this into a bash Lucas thread. While ROTJ has faults and the criticism in the OP is valid, it's still a very good movie worthy of the OT and vastly superior to the awful prequels.

From the first link:

"For Kurtz, the popular notion that “Star Wars” was always planned as a multi-film epic is laughable."

It seems to be only a myth that there was any realistic thought of Star Wars being a multi-film epic. GL had all kinds of ideas that could have been spread across a multi-film epic if properly fleshed out. He apparently took the most consolidated bunch of ideas and turned them into Star Wars.

sonnyboo said:

Mrebo said:

With all due respect: meh.

Most of those are nitpicks. Several times you refer to behind the scenes happenings/ideas as if to prove RoTJ was the worst of the "6" when really it just shows that you think it would have been better a certain way.

To some extent I would concede it could have been better in certain places. But that it "sucks" and is the "worst"...hah!

10. Solo was softer. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ. I personally didn't need a full-blown love triangle.

9. Seriously...matter paintings help to make this the worst?

8. There were good and bad effects. Just as there were in ANH and ESB.

7. That a son might exercise some wishful thinking in conjunction with the Force that he might believe there to be good in his father? That is not far-fetched. I didn't expect a tender moment in which Vader saves a puppy or something. Luke sensed the struggle and the modicum of good.

6. Kill the black guy? Falling back on that sci fi trope would make this a better movie?

5. For the sake of originality, I would have wanted something different, but it was a very different ending more focused on what was happening inside with Luke vs Emperor.

4. There could have been more tension there, there could've been a love triangle, but meh. Doesn't make or break the movie.

3. Solo didn't have the same edge, as already conceded. But Ford played his role dutifully. I don't care what Ford was saying/doing offscreen.

2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it.

1. Could've been presented more credibly...but it still worked. Luke was emotional, maybe not as emotional as you would want but he was.

I'll give you partial credit for most points but I most disagree with your conclusion that RoTJ is somehow the worst.

I don't think a complete lack of dramatic impact or any consistent character development to be "nitpicking". Seems like a major flaw to me, but to each his own.

Because such flaws can be found in all the OT and because there is so much greatness in RoTJ. In ANH, Luke defended Obi Wan as a great man against Solo's disparagement. What did Obi Wan do that was so great in the day or two that Luke knew him? Acted nonchalantly after Luke's family was killed? How about when they all jumped into the garbage chute and the Imperials would have easily figured out where they were but sort of disappeared for awhile? How about Alderaan's destruction barely mentioned again? How about how quickly they trusted Lando at the end after he sold them out?

Let's be real, Jar Jar Binks with his Gungans and  Ewoks are duking it out for 'worst element in Star Wars movies".

That a primitive and humble race could play a pivotal role in bringing down the Empire is a good story. Maybe not as gee whiz cool as Wookiees ravaging Imperials, but still lots of fun.

Harrison Ford, ON SCREEN, in this movie gives the single worst and most uninspired performance of his career.

You've obviously never seen Young Indiana Jones and the Mystery of the Blues. I agree with others who explain why Solo has changed. I don't know why you think Ford's performance was so bad in RoTJ.

I don't see Lando as "kill the black guy" as much as "kill a lead character", to the point originally made - to establish some level of sacrifice for the good guys, for the sake of creating an element of danger for the characters, and risk for the audience that someone we have grown to care about, regardless of skin pigmentation, might die on screen.

Nonetheless, the only prominent black person in the OT would have been quickly killed, as has happened in so many other sci fi works. And ultimately it simply isn't any kind of flaw to not kill the main characters. I think conveying the sense of risk is always done before a character does or does not die.

For Luke to sense, invisible to the audience and not demonstrated by any action or even words spoken that Darth Vader has some 'good in him' is just plain POOR FILMMAKING. There are a myriad of things Lucas (or Kasden) could have done in the screenplay to DEMONSTRATE some wavering from being totally evil. As it is, from episodes iV-V, this comes out of left field and makes no sense.

I agree with the others who have expressed their thoughts that it makes sense that Luke alone senses good in Vader. Indeed, part of not letting the audience know allows the ending to have a greater sense of danger and suspense. Was Luke wrong in sensing good in him? We are left guessing until the very end. And now Vader even answers that question explicitly, "Noooooo!"

sonnyboo said:

Mrebo said:

10. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you missed THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. There's a scene on HOTH after Luke comes out of this healing water tank and Leia kisses him, full on with tongue. Seems kind of romantic and on the verge of being an objective observation.

The blatantly obvious intent of the kiss was to make the Han Solo character jealous. I don't know how things work in your family, but if wanted to make a chick jealous, I don't kiss my sister.

Did Leia ever exhibit a romantic interest in Luke? No. Was it a tongue kiss? No. Did they know they were siblings? No. The kiss was solely about making Solo jealous. Certainly inappropriate in hindsight, but was not motivated by romance.

Now I agree that not having Luke/Leia be siblings would have been better, but we don't need to use hyperbole to try to make RoTJ out to be the worst SW movie.

RETURN OF THE JEDI has a ton that is flat and uninteresting. I'd even take the horrendous prequel EpII dialogue of "I truly.... deeply.... love you" over this dreck. Not by much, but I would.

Between the prequel trilogy and Return of the Jedi, it's like picking which apple is slightly less rotten.

You thought Yoda's death was flat and uninteresting? You thought the scene in the Emperor's throne room was flat and uninteresting? I thought they were two of the most iconic scenes in Star Wars. I greatly enjoyed Jabba and the Ewoks. There was dramatic tension between Solo and Leia, even if Solo was now a more sensitive character.

asterisk8 said:

I think his points were very well-articulated and supported, and yet I'm not surprised to see responses that amount to, "You're wrong, I don't care about the things that bother you and I think ROTJ is awesome!"

You didn't read my criticisms very carefully. The main point being made is that he doesn't show RoTJ to be the worst or that is sucks.

Obvious brushstrokes in a matte painting on an HD screen in 2011 is a valid criticism, especially when mattes have been selectively replaced elsewhere. The lack of dramatic tension is also a very valid point that he effectively supports, even referring to earlier drafts of the script to show how such issues could've been resolved.

 

"Doesn't make or break the movie."

Maybe not on his own, but then again, that wasn't his point. None of these criticisms on their own make or break the movie, but when considered all together, they form a pretty reasonable critique of the quality of ROTJ.

And as I said, most are valid criticisms (even if nitpicks in my view) but they do not amount to saying RoTJ is the worst of the "6" or that it sucks.

"2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it."

What kind of response is that? You're just flaming the guy for articulating his opinion in an intelligent and reasonable way.

I was clearly being facetious. That is in no way "flaming."

sonnyboo, thanks for sharing your review.

As a list of 10 ways the OP thanks RoTJ would have been better, he gets an A+. I obviously don't have to agree with his tastes (nor must he agree with mine, which is why I didn't make a list of why RoTJ is awesome). As a list showing that RoTJ is the worst...he gets far fewer points. He does not compare RoTJ to the others. Of course "thanks" are implicit when people share their thoughts. That doesn't mean we can't express our disagreement.

With all due respect: meh.

Most of those are nitpicks. Several times you refer to behind the scenes happenings/ideas as if to prove RoTJ was the worst of the "6" when really it just shows that you think it would have been better a certain way.

To some extent I would concede it could have been better in certain places. But that it "sucks" and is the "worst"...hah!

10. Solo was softer. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ. I personally didn't need a full-blown love triangle.

9. Seriously...matter paintings help to make this the worst?

8. There were good and bad effects. Just as there were in ANH and ESB.

7. That a son might exercise some wishful thinking in conjunction with the Force that he might believe there to be good in his father? That is not far-fetched. I didn't expect a tender moment in which Vader saves a puppy or something. Luke sensed the struggle and the modicum of good.

6. Kill the black guy? Falling back on that sci fi trope would make this a better movie?

5. For the sake of originality, I would have wanted something different, but it was a very different ending more focused on what was happening inside with Luke vs Emperor.

4. There could have been more tension there, there could've been a love triangle, but meh. Doesn't make or break the movie.

3. Solo didn't have the same edge, as already conceded. But Ford played his role dutifully. I don't care what Ford was saying/doing offscreen.

2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it.

1. Could've been presented more credibly...but it still worked. Luke was emotional, maybe not as emotional as you would want but he was.

I'll give you partial credit for most points but I most disagree with your conclusion that RoTJ is somehow the worst.

twooffour said:

Oh Jesus...

As much as you want to believe it, that is not actually a definition of "ludicrous."

No country for old men in black hawk down in the valley girl, interrupted

xhonzi said:

Mrebo (Reason: *I'm not actually into musicals that much, not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Music Man on Fire?

lol!

IKWYDLS has a lot of promise.

TV's Frink said:

Obviously I don't mind a little deviation from the topic but this is just getting silly.  I'm sure a DVD vs. BR (:p) thread in another section of the forum would be better for this discussion.

Watch your fingers!

Um...on topic...well if Star Wars were properly released on the discs made with blue lasers now replacing DVDs, I would be motivated to get a player for such discs. Since they weren't, I'm not. Maybe I should also go ahead and find those 2006 DVDs.

The Sound of Music of the Heart

Three Men and a Baby Mama

The King and I Know What You Did Last Summer

Moth3r said:

Mrebo said:

And how many people who are buying the "BR" actually have a TV of sufficient size and resolution, or sit close enough, to appreciate what the BR has to offer, I wonder.

Please note the correct abbreviation for "Blu-ray Disc" is "BD".

If you type "BR" one more time I'm going to come over there and break your fingers.

Thank you.

rofl. At least I quoted it this time! And that would be an interesting form of moderation. Duly noted!

Harmy said:

Yeah, exactly. My dad's got a 30" 1080p Samsung and when you sit on the sofa, you can't tell the difference between a DVD and BD coming from the same master (I tried like yesterday with Harry Potter). Sit like 3ft closer and you'll start seeing a huge difference but from where he's sitting, he unfortunately has no need to buy Blu-Rays.

And how many people who are buying the "BR" actually have a TV of sufficient size and resolution, or sit close enough, to appreciate what the BR has to offer, I wonder.

I saw the magazine ImagineFX at the bookstore today (and would have bought it if it weren't $16) which featured a piece on the art of Star Wars. I realized that much of the artistic design for the PT was pretty decent. I even had appreciation for the work of Terryl Whitlatch who designed Jar Jar. I definitely appreciated that she hinted she didn't like what was done with Jar Jar on the screen. I liked the hippy Yoda design. I liked that one of the vehicle designers criticized the excessive use of CGI which looked like "plastic" and that the universe ended up looking too pristine, unlike the OT which he loved for its realistic dirtiness accentuated by the film grain.

It all reminded me of the promise and hope for the PT that I felt before '99. And that even the designers who were so enmeshed in creating the PT realize the execution was not good.

Eidolon said:

 

 

THE SITH

 

We need them. Because they're the main antagonists in all the SW movies...

Except for the OT. The real antagonist was the Empire. Vader was a fallen Jedi, but his role was still one of imperial servant. At the very end we find that the Emperor also has Force powers. But it wasn't set up or presented as "Sith" vs. Jedi/rebels. Accepting the PT (and the EU), I guess one might have to accept that most of the major conflict in the universe boils down to one of sith vs. jedi. I still think thats kinda lame :/

Certainly the dark side of the Force should continue to play a role in any Star Wars movie as using the powers of the Force for evil is a powerful part of the story. But I'd caution against making it so simplistic as "Attack of the 'Sith!'"

I don't think I'm splitting hairs about the OT villains being "Sith" yet the conflict not being based on their Sithiness. At least the OT shows a way of not making it be primarily about the "Sith" so as to make it more dynamic.

Some interesting ideas you have, so wanted to throw out my 

WhatsMyName said:

I dunno. I guess its not different then believing in Santa all your child hood and then one day you realized that Santa was never there in the first place and move on with life.

And the main topic thing, this is just weird. Restricting kids from the PT because it wasn't anything like the OT? Awkward...

That makes sense.

As far as the topic goes, I have great sympathy for xhonzi's point of view. I certainly won't feel motivated to subject my future younglings children to the PT. It's not about being merely different from the OT...it's about undermining the glory of the OT, to put it slightly melodramatically. I certainly don't want a world for my kids in which the PT is considered Star Wars gospel. Whether I could be as diligent and steadfast in keeping the influence of PT out of my home...I don't know. But they will know the truth!

I can't decide whether this is sweet or cruel.

And no, not because they're ewoks...you ewok bashers.

zombie84 said:

Should we start figuring out a way to tunnel under Skywalker Ranch and steal the original negatives?

I was in the Library of Congress last week and was curious where they keep their copies and also what they do (if anything) to preserve them.

Mavimao said:

Hey Harmy, you being Czech, do you know of the works of Jan Svankmejer?

Definitely one of my most favorite directors! I think "Little Otik" gave me nightmares for weeks!

His version of Alice and Wonderland was captivating. It became a little tedious in places but with enough cute details to keep it going. And I made everyone I know watch Little Otik! Where is the Svankmejer thread? :p

My top 4 movies are RoTJ, ESB, ANH, and Groundhog Day.

TheBoost said:

Zero said:

I'd say that the OT had the greatest impact on my life. But they aren't my favorite movies. They came out when I was a kid and I really loved them. Ever since I grew up, my tastes became more refined. So much so that I can't really pick out my "favorite movie".

I'm not sure you meant it this way, but personally I don't think there's anything 'unrefined' about "Star Wars."

lol, that raised my eyebrow also. Certainly there are more polished, artistic, and philosophically deeper movies. But I don't think that makes them any more competitive with Star Wars as the greatest movies of all time. My tastes have certainly expanded but Star Wars remains atop the heap for more than nostalgiac reasons.

Jaws over Star Wars? o_O

Sometimes I'll specify my "favorite non-Star Wars movies" when asked what my favorites are, and I do kind of consider Star Wars in a class of its own. Plus it helps when people don't take Star Wars seriously as a favorite movie 'because everybody likes Star Wars.' But Star Wars are my favorite movies.

Cuchulainn said:

I miss 'Yub Nub'...

Me too.

Yes, but I don't think it's about hating them. It's about the changes being so unnecessary, silly, haphazard, etc that even for those who 'enjoy' them probably wouldn't care if they weren't there anymore.