Here's something that caught my eye, haven't seen mentioned anywhere else, and thought it's worth looking into.
In this shot, we clearly see Lobot walk up the stairs and to the left in the corridor.
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adywan said:
Those windows would be on the inside and not the outside of the building because the corridor goes all the way around, so it would be more like a central courtyard. But the way they are designed, they are more like ornate lighting than actual windows.
Oh okay. I always thought those were decorative windows to the outside, just like the kind you might find for a bathroom.. which only let light through and nobody can see when the rubber ducky is taking his bath:
But your explanation is definitely a possibility too. In fact, I really like your idea over "bathroom windows" because that's absolutely suitable for here - any architect is entitled to choose artificial instead of natural lighting wherever he wants to, even if it is a city in the sky :) That also explains why you made the window/Lea smaller on the tower, to help convince us that a hallway could possibly fit along there.
Thank you Ady
Notice the large, ornate windows and hallway behind Lando
But in the added SE shot, we don't notice them there
My suggestion: It'd be better and easiest to add the same ornate windows and hallway we see behind Lando to that added SE shot (and yes, I would really like to see this SE clip left in). I think this relatively small fix will really help this structure appear more "tangible" after we see it from the inside.
Please excuse me if this was already discussed and decided, but in case it wasn't, here it is...
This outline is crude, but it should be adequate to show you the layout of the room for determining the continuity error.
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I looked through that MovieMistakes and it's amazing how many blatant continuity errors there are in these films. What's even more amazing is there were actually several that did not click with me before, despite the countless times I've seen these movies XD I'm glad that Ady has much better eyes and will be taking the time to correct all of these problems though (or most of them, because I can understand some of them would be very difficult to fix and/or not worth the trouble).
Question for you guys, how many doors/entrances do you think are in that Cloud City room where Lea is pacing around by the window? Originally, I used to think there was just one, but not long ago I realized that there are actually two. The first one is where Han walks in, and the second one I believe is where Chewie and later Lando walk in. Whether it is meant to be 1 door or 2 doors, I see an error either way and when I get time, I'll try to map them out in case it's worth looking into.
Regarding the canyon shot: Hopefully he'll also do something about that shot of the ships flying through the canyon here..
with new Ties, new crashes (this part bothered me the most), and new FX. Maybe he's planning on making this shot all new?
As for the added SE clips of people in the hallway and the outside plaza while Lando is on the intercom, I liked those additions and hopefully those will be kept, for the reasons that muddy has stated already.
muddyknees2000 said:
oh_riginal said:
I assumed they were flying around to the other side of Bespin before going out into space. Sort of flying "undercover" in a way. But when they went back and caught the attention of the TIE Fighters they lost their opportunity for an easy escape and had to get to space ASAP to go to lightspeed.
^Exactly this^
Okay, that makes sense - I buy that. That's what I really like about these forums, you get the opportunity to see/understand certain things a little differently (generally for the better) when it's discussed with others.
oh_riginal said:
In response to the above image, I had always assumed that the threat of the Empire meant taking over Cloud City, not necessarily destroying it. Think Martial Law, not Mass Execution.
Yes exactly, this is how I viewed it too. Unless Cloud City put up a direct fight against the Empire, which we never saw them doing (and adding such elements would only alter the story and distract from the current narrative), it wouldn't make sense for the Empire to open fire and cripple/destroy Cloud City.
Not a bad idea with the Star Destroyer at Cloud City, but I wouldn't push for it either.
@Ronster: Regarding Lando saying, "What about those fighters?", nothing needs to be done about that. It can be assumed that, sometime during their flight out of there, they did notice some Tie Fighters approaching the city from a different/opposite direction.
The only thing that has niggled me about this segment of the movie (but it shouldn't necessarily be changed from how it was originally) is the amount of time the Falcon initially had to escape Bespin - from the time when they leave the pad all the way to when Luke telepathically communicates with Lea. Because of the editing and everything that has happened on screen, you feel like they would have been way out in space already by the time Luke "speaks" to Lea (not in the clouds, still), especially when you compare the sequence of them quickly returning to rescue Luke and quickly leaving the planet. This is my theory for why Lucas added the various clips of Vader's shuttle, to give the viewer a sense of time passing by (although I think we all agree it wasn't done right and so it didn't help).
And lastly, I agree with whoever pointed out that Lea points upward (with Lando and Chewie also looking upward) at the Super Star Destroyer when in the next shot we actually see it much lower. To correct that, I think it would look good and be easiest to have that cockpit view be adjusted so we are looking further up through the upper windows, where Lea would have seen it when pointing.
muddyknees2000 said:
The monitor changes nothing....he's got all kinds of gadgets he could be using to "detect" the cave....problem is, he points out the window.....
Delaying the line works perfectly as it makes it seem like he has a good feeling about the approaching crater....which he then confirms when he spots an adequate cave in said crater.......it's dead simple, and it totally solves the problem.
I completely agree with you on this.
Not meaning to lead the current discussion off on a tangent, but seeing all those sparks reminded me of another scene and I just wanted to quickly ask if anyone else thinks this is a good idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF-mZxhprVQ
I think whoever created that had the right idea of adding some sparks there.
doubleofive said:
The Vadergram holo platform has been modified with a glow and the bottom plate has been darkened. There is no reason to discuss the Vadergram any longer. :-P
That sounds perfect 005. I'm looking forward to seeing ady's newest and probably final version incorporating these two good ideas for his already excellent Vader holo (I for one am very happy with the improved angle and the more natural "Vader pose" over the original).
@aalenfae, I really like that effect. Just that little extra detail really makes the hologram look like it's actually operating from that surface. Perhaps Ady will consider something similar to that.
After seeing that new and improved Vader holo, now I'm curious what the plan is for these 3 holo captains.
I hope we can still keep the original footage (and not have to re-shoot any of them), just enhanced in areas to better match the other enhanced holos in the edit. But their holos shouldn't be clear either, since they should still look "hazy"/choppy from the asteroids interrupting their transmission.
adywan said:
The new Vader hologram.....
That... looks sooo much better. Looking at the original now, it's as if Vader was already in an asteroid field and couldn't wait to send a clear transmission.
As always, outstanding work!
@muddyknees
Are any of you guys keeping some of those film slates as mementos for yourselves, or are you planning to get rid of them all? Now I'm wondering what Adywan is going to do with his new Echo Base hanger after he's done using that - how is that coming along btw?
@TV's Frink, You got me laughing too XD
I got one for your list...
After all those years there, it makes sense that wise Yoda would have something that keeps him up with current events around the galaxy and more entertainment. Let's put a TV in his hut (a large flat-screen, so that it's modernized for the audience); have it turned on in the background to Yoda's favorite show while they're having dinner.
muddyknees2000 said:
ESB is in fact the OT film that Ady is changing the LEAST....and to be more accurate I should say the STRUCTURE of the film is what isn't being changed. Anything being added, removed, or altered is within the existing frames of the film.....or at the very least, if a shot IS being COMPLETELY redone, it is being done with an eye towards the original shot and trying to keep the layout or feel of the original. Entirely new sequences are not being added to this one.
Thank you for that clarification friend :) I didn't realize that was his intended plan.
Just so you know, though, I'm on the same page with you. I wasn't just throwing out an idea just for the hoot of it, because I know where you're coming from and completely understand your feelings about what happened in the prequels - those weren't done right.
What I had in mind for this short panning shot would not have been just filler with no significance to the story (much of the prequels). When done right, as I know Ady could do, it potentially could have had relevance and added more substance to the current situation (much of the OT), causing the audience to be even more concerned for the hero's escape. But, again, the more I think about it, I've decided you and 005 are right that it really isn't needed - it'd be better without it after all (but still, it was one of my dreams to "officially" see snowtroopers roping down from an AT-AT, and to see many of them at once on screen on Hoth, with the possibility of seeing Vader's shuttle for its first good reveal).
"I always thought there may have been more rebel bases out there aside from Hoth (which would explain why in ROTJ the rebellion suddenly has more than just humans in it). If this were the case, then the Empire's invasion likely was just a fraction of the power that they could have sent in.
Or I'm wrong."
I'd say you're right oh-riginal. I too believe their invasion was just a fraction of what they could have sent. From what we can see, only 3 SDs (maybe a few more off-screen) plus the Executor were sent, but they definitely have more than that somewhere else.
muddyknees2000 said:
.Mac. said:
True, seeing Vader's landing shuttle isn't truly needed...
well said
but muddyknees, that wasn't my only reason for this idea ;) That would indeed be one of the highlights, but it'd be more than just that.
I always thought it'd be awesome to, somehow, see an additional scene of many snowtroopers (even though it works great exactly as it is now). This way, not only could it be "fresh" and look cool, it could also help drive the story and the urgency that the rebels are facing. Vader's shuttle I suppose would be more secondary, but it could be set up so it's a good first glimpse of his shuttle (whereas it's only mentioned later - and ROTJ is far away).
But, Ady might already have something up his sleeve, so possibly this idea would interfere with that idea, in which case nevermind all of my idea :) The more I think about it too, the more I think it really shouldn't be added also, and it'd be better to just leave the first reveal of the snowtroopers be when the explode through the tunnel wall.
True, seeing Vader's landing shuttle isn't truly needed... but still I was thinking that if handled well (similar to keeping in and adding more AT-STs to the battle), it would work well and give the audience a chance to see certain things. In this case, we'd get a good first view of his personal shuttle (but we wouldn't have to see him), along with troopers disembarking a nearby walker (this, especially, I'd like to see on-screen how it's done)... I don't think any of this would hinder the story at all (it would only last around 5 seconds too); if done in a tactful way, this could be another one of those outstanding additions that Ady could seamlessly fit in.
If not, that's okay. It was an interesting possibility :)
Somebody probably already brought this up long ago, but I haven't seen it and so I thought I'd bring it up.
Something that I would actually enjoy seeing, as additional footage for a few seconds, is a scene where you might get to see Vader's shuttle landing on Hoth and more snowtroopers (with some troops disembarking from a nearby walker somewhere) in the same scene - two birds with one stone.
If this were to happen, I guess the ideal and only place to insert this new little segment (where it would flow naturally, without ruining any pacing) would be right between the scenes "Transport, this is Solo. Better take off"... etc, and just before that next explosion of the wall and shows snowtroopers storming in followed by Vader.
Maybe also at the end of this new segment, we can notice some troopers "lighting the fuse" which will give them access to inside the Rebel base (thus linking and flowing into the next scene that we know already).
When done right, as I know Ady can definitely do, this could potentially be a welcome addition.
Just an idea. What do you guys think? :)
The points about the lighting and movement of objects in space are of course very good observations for the flow/continuity of shots and for helping the audience locate where they are. When seeing something for the first time, though, it's also important to have the revealing sequence done properly - a "grand entrance", especially if it's of something important. And just in my humble opinion, it would feel more dramatic if the shadow were the first reveal of the Executor, rather than first seeing its blue bridge (a bridge we have already seen before, therefore only suspecting it to be just another SD, along with the others we see in this same shot). I view the entering bridge as a ploy, to remind you just how big these are on the SDs, only to soon show it being engulfed by a shadow.
*If* we actually saw a part of the Executor before seeing that shadow, it'd be more expertly-done if it wasn't of something we are already familiar with (the bridge). But what else without mimicking the beginning of ANH? This is why I believe the shadow is the perfect starting point, because it is showing us something new without first showing exactly what it is; from there, it is gradually revealed, more and more, what this new monstrosity is.
This kind of revealing could also be comparable to when we view the AT-AT reveal...
First, the Rebel troops look out to an empty snow horizon, but they see nothing (we instantly begin anticipating something will happen here - all we know is there will be a "surface attack").
Later, we see that same snowy horizon and this time we do see ambiguous "dots" out there (the audience is now wondering what those are).
Then, we get a (hazy) first-person glimpse via binoculars showing a bit more of what these "dots" are (with this, we learn that these "dots" are actually massive and they are "Imperial walkers").
Finally, we get a much closer and clearer view of these walkers as they begin opening fire (and the battle begins).
Notice the flow and the build up? This has always stood out as outstanding to me. It goes from something very ambiguous/unknown, to gradually teasing us with more until we eventually see the whole object(s). It's this gradual building-up of shots that also builds up the tension, especially when revealing something monumental (To me, the Executor is no exception). It wouldn't make as much sense to mix that AT-AT reveal in any other order (such as first showing the Binocs shot, then showing these "dots" on the horizon, then seeing their full bodies) - You go from very small/unknown to bigger/known.
Even though I could certainly live with and respect Ady's decision if he has the opening bridge as the Executor's (and also having this shot be mirrored, so it's moving from left to right, is a good idea), to me it makes more sense (in terms of the narrative) to let the shadow be the first reveal (something unfamiliar to us, unlike a SD bridge), and from there we increasingly see more of it. Does this make sense to anyone else? Because what's at stake is how the Executor is first revealed to us.
I don't know if he will, but if Adywan were to ever have a poll, it may be better on Facebook where more people can find it and have the opportunity to vote. Maybe if he posted a question along the lines of (without bias): "At the sequence when Darth Vader's massive super star destroyer, the Executor, is first revealed in ESB, which did you interpret as its initial reveal? "Like" if you thought it was that bridge at the opening shot, or "Dislike" if you thought it was that shadow on the Star Destroyer." The problem with a poll is I don't want Ady to feel pressured either way just because of a majority vote, but perhaps it would still be helpful and he could take note. I just want him to choose what he honestly feels will tell this sequence the best.
Hello everyone,
I'm new here. For a quite some time, I have been just reading people's comments while also looking forward to any Revisited updates. Well, I finally decided that it's time to become a member so that way I can actually post my own thoughts/opinions/ideas here towards these edited films too.
First of all, I would like to thank you, Adywan, so much for all of the dedicated and painstaking work that you (plus anyone else involved) have accomplished so far and are continuing to do. I cannot express enough here how much I am a fan of your work in actually improving these already great films. I've been intrigued ever since watching ANH:R long ago and now even more with your upcoming release of ESB:R, my favorite SW episode of one of my favorite sagas of all time. To all of the many people I know who enjoy SW, I have been recommending that they look into "Adywan's ESB:Revisited". I tell them that you are doing the exact work that Lucas and his team should have done - "what the Special Editions should have been". Even though I own various copies of SW ('95 VHS, '97 SE VHS, dvds, Blurays), for many obvious reasons, the revisited versions are what I will be watching and sharing from now on.
Now, on to the debate at hand: The opening shot of the Imperial fleet...
When looking at those Puggos and 97 SE images, yes, it is clear that the bridge was tinted blue in those versions. However, if you study those more closely, the background SDs also appear to have a similar bluish tint (at least to me, anyone else think so too?). Either way, it's possible that the original shots showed just another goof/inconsistency... one of many in ESB that have you scratching your head and wondering "why or how did they mess that up?" Just like with the blue Tie Fighters, the Tie Fighter's blue lasers during the "asteroid canyon" chase that eventually was fixed by GL, the AT-AT's red window, the Millenium Falcon's engine that was as either just white or blue, etc. etc. the list goes on. Basically, even though the "Imperial reveal" shot showed a bluish bridge originally, (on first viewing) the thought had never crossed my mind that it was intended to be anything else but a regular SD (I'm sure I wasn't the only one). The reason is because we hadn't seen the Executor prior to this shot and we do remember all the various inconsistencies that has plagued SW since the very beginning (which I am extremely grateful you are addressing as many as you can). So if colors weren't always reliable, then we must rely more heavily on how the sequence is laid out - hence why many believed the "shadow" to be the first reveal of the Executor and the bridge beforehand was just another SD, since it looked exactly like a SD bridge (which makes sense when you consider the entire sequence, regardless of later learning that the Executor has a similar but blue bridge); this is also why I think nobody guessed what was wrong in the Revisited sequence, because to us, it all flowed together in a logical order and the colors were corrected.
On the other hand, Ady, it is very likely you are right where originally they intended that shot to be the Executor's bridge (your latest images support this)... however, would this be the ideal and best approach for revealing the Executor, in terms of narrative and the flow of this sequence? I suppose it could still technically work, but I would say it wouldn't have the same impact on people as revealing the Executor's shadow first. For that reason, I would say no, and here's why...
Borrowing the "shark fin" reference, let's take a look at the movie Jaws: In the opening sequence, not once do we see a shark's fin. Why? It was a well-done establishing shot that only shows the audience what we need to know without showing exactly what it was, and because of that (and along with the Jaws theme), it succeeds very well in building up the tension. This establishing shot in Jaws can be comparable to that shadow engulfing the regular Star Destroyer. When we know something is there and yet we don't see it, our mind is really at work wondering... and this is ideal in this particular situation; otherwise the audience is sitting there pondering, "Why was that SD's bridge blue while all others are gray? Is it a mess-up?", and already the establishing shot is ruined. In the Jaws movie, we eventually do get to see the shark's fin and to me, this is comparable to seeing the underbelly of the Executor. Then finally, eventually you'll finally get to see the entire shark and this is comparable to the side-shot view of the Executor.
In terms of the narrative and flow of events, this was masterfully done in Jaws. If the reveal were mixed up in any other order, the tension would not have been as profound and it would also feel poorly edited. Now in the Imperial fleet shot, I think the same would happen if we first showed a glimpse of the Executor's (blue) bridge first, then its shadow, then its body again. Therefore, it works better to have the Executor's shadow be first, then the rest of it. People before me explained this point very well.
In conclusion, Adywan, whether or not the blue tint on the bridge was a goof since the beginning, or if they originally intended that to be the Executor's bridge, I believe this sequence would be best if that bridge belonged to a regular SD, then in the next shot we see its entire massive body, only to be engulfed by a shadow of something larger (arguably the better and proper first glimpse of the Executor). While I don't want you to make a decision just based on popular opinion, I also don't want you to pick something just because that's how it may have been intended originally ("original" doesn't necessarily mean it's good if it doesn't narrate or drive the story the best way). I just hope after you read the points I (and others) made, you'll at least consider them, and then decide for sure which you honestly feel will tell and display this segment best. The one you decide, that is the one it was meant to be all along, and I know that regardless of this particular decision, we will all be forever happy and grateful for your edit when it's all complete :)
- Mac
