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Laserman

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Join date
11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

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Post
#265154
Topic
Colour matching for fan edits
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265154/action/topic#265154
Time
I see a lot of people are now pulling in various sources to insert into their fan edits.
People are pulling footage from Blade Runner, Dune and other films, and stuff they have shot themselves and cobbling it all together, or mixing SE and LD footage together etc.

Colour matching can be a pain in the arse, so I just thought I'd throw in a method that can be used pretty much automatically, even if the scenes are very different.
This would allow you (for example) to take the colour scheme from a room in Blade Runner and match it to a room from Revenge of the Sith, or colour match the entire SE to match one of the LD releases.

The crux of the method is to get the probability density function from one image and to apply it to the other. Obviously a one dimensional pdf isn't going to be a very good match with two very differrent images, but if you feed the results of one back into the equation then you get it moving towards convergence, and can in fact get very close to an exact match. (i.e. use it iteratively) It isn't very computationally intensive and can achieve amazing results.

If anyone is interested to give it a go I'll post some reference papers and the math.
Post
#265152
Topic
***The "Darth Editous" Episode IV DVD Info and Feedback Thread*** - a partially "de-specialed" DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265152/action/topic#265152
Time
It is basically a way to do an automatic colour match between two images using one as the source. The great thing about it is the images don't actually have to be the same, which is handy for matching up footage shot at different times of the day automatically.
But it would work even better when the images are pretty close, like two different transfers of the same film.
Most packages just do a median/mean colour match, (Like combustion's colour match tool, you pick the low, the high and the 'average' colour to match to)but in this methodyou get the probability density function for both images (the pdf) and effectively transfer it exactly across to the target image. The result is a pretty damn good colour match without the banding, noise and misconvergence you typically get.
By iterating single dimensional pdf transfers you end up with an extremely close match.

I have the math kicking around somewhere and the siggraph notes, it isn't that hard to implement and gives great results. I've been using it to pull together all of the various sources we have into a cohesive whole, just thought you might find it useful (plus a standalone pdf colour matcher is something that would be very useful, mine is coded into Shake scripts which isn't useful to the majority of people on these forums)

I'll dig out the details and post it over in the tech forum.

Post
#265130
Topic
***The "Darth Editous" Episode IV DVD Info and Feedback Thread*** - a partially "de-specialed" DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265130/action/topic#265130
Time
How about starting a thread over in the non star wars section, then it can be discussed at length.

DE, you are a coding kind of guy, had you thought about applying an N dimensional pdf transfer to get the SE colour to better match one of the laserdisc releases? I've had really good results in the past matching different plates this way, it should work an absolute charm when the actual frame content is the same, and you shouldn't get the banding issues etc. you were experienceoing. (It still works amazingly well even when the frame content is very different, so for this application it should work extremely well)
Post
#265027
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/265027/action/topic#265027
Time
I don't think it needs to be Hayden's wooden performance just someone elses perhaps.

Does anyone really like Hayden's go at this. I actually liked him in other films but thought he was a dud in the prequels.

I only saw each of the prequels once so I'm not at all swayed by being 'used to' his performance vs the dub, but it still jumped straight out at me.
Try playing *just* the audio without the video to a non star wars person as a test.

However, I haven't heard anything near the final version, so I'll keep an open mind. (ear?)
At the end of the day though, it is your edit - I'm pretty sure people will pick the shit out the X0 release when we finally get that done.

Get it to the point where *you* like it, and everyone else can enjoy it or not, that is the nature of art.
Post
#264965
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264965/action/topic#264965
Time
At any rate, even if the thing came out and the audio was abysmal then it would still be the most worthwhile thing I have seen in ages, and audio can always be replaced later. Even if the audio was really good, it still would pay to leave the mix open for later improvements.
If the new edit is compelling enough, I think you would have some pros come out of the woodwork and offer their services.
Post
#264964
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264964/action/topic#264964
Time
Thanks for the heads up. It would be great if the mix could be left open for replacement later, i.e. that the dialogu you record remains on a separate track in the mixing software so that you could easily replace it later if not happy with it.

Good point re you recording that dialogue before realising that the ambient noise was going to be louder, that would make a big difference.

I'm not sure how to describe what I hear when listening to it, as I said it is immediately recognisable to me, I think it has to do with the sound having a little 'self consciousness' to it, which often comes when sitting in a room with a microphone.

MTHaslett, as to how I have dealt with it in the past, I usually have just replaced the audio with someone else. However if getting a non actor to just lay down dialogue I always have them stand up at the mic and 'act' out the scene while standing there, they get more into the role that way and the recording is often more natural, probably also because they move arround more so you don't get the constant volume level that screams 'recorded later'. I never have them sitting down, it always gives a lackluster performance for some reason.

I also get fresh ears (i.e. someone who hasn't heard/seen it before) to listen to a scene without video and ask them what they think of each character's voice. It always results in useful feedback.

Anyway, it seems TM is well on top of it and is doing a lot of work on the audio before it is finished.
Post
#264943
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264943/action/topic#264943
Time
Originally posted by: boreddusty
I wasn't referring to you specifically, just everyone who is coming in now and shitting on the dubbing when it's a month or two away from completion.

Of course it's not going to be perfect, we don't expect it to be. It wouldn't be perfect if Trooperman was actually on set for the original filming.

I guess it just irks me to keep reading posts praising everything else and then criticizing the hell out of his dub work. Most of it has been constructive (offering suggestions on how to make it sound more natural, etc), but it's still getting a little late in the game for this.


I would have mentioned it earlier had I heard it earlier. I only heard it for the first time yesterday. If it really is nearly 'in the can' then I guess the suggestions don't help much, but there is always the 'special edition' .

It was only the person doing Anakins voice that really jumped out at me, the voice actor not the process. It just sounded so "I'm putting on a voice now" that it pulled me straight out of the clip. (I guess it hit me because I always get that problem when making shorts using non-actors, and no matter what country/accent/upbringing the guy always sounds *exactly* like that - it is some weird universal phenomenon)
I was trying to be constructive in as much as mentioning trying to find an actual actor rather than a 'friend' to do the voice work, or get the person involved to try it in their natural speaking voice. If it needed to then be lower you would get a better result pitch shifting it than getting the person to artificially speak in a lower voice.

I hadn't actually read any other posts re the dubbing when I posted mine (I saw Zombies just *after* I posted and then realised my post was redundant).

I figured that is why people put sample posts up, to get them critiqued. I reckon criticism is to be encouraged, you don't have to follow it or agree with it of course!
Post
#264923
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264923/action/topic#264923
Time
Originally posted by: boreddusty
some of you dudes can be real turds.


You mean me?

I hope it didn't come across that way, I love how it is looking and was offering feedback as to the parts that I didn't think measured up to the excellence of the rest of it.
I was aiming for constructive criticism, if it came across as anything else then I apologise.

At work the director once came in, took a look at something I had just spent a week on and yelled "That is SHIT" and walked out. He looked at the *exact* same piece the next day and said "now that is better, THAT is what I wanted!" and then signed off on it. I try to be a bit more constructive than that.

Post
#264841
Topic
Info: Auto-correction from SE colours to GOUT colours (lots of information)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264841/action/topic#264841
Time
Originally posted by: THX
Thanks, Darth.

That makes me wonder...

If the dye-transfer print was used as color reference for the SE - could it be that the original (pre-video) color is closer to the '04 than the DC/GOUT?

That seems wrong, from memory, but memory (particularly color memory) is unreliable.

A horrible idea, I know, but...



In some ways it is, the film prints have much richer colours than the laserdisc versions, the saturation is much higher, but not up there with the 04 versions.

The colour cast certainly isn't there on the old films, the full frame laserblasts are totally clear on the film (i.e. white) and not blue like the 04.

So in laymans terms the saturation is more towards the 04 than say the definitive, but the actual colour hues are not.
If you bump the saturation on the SC up a few notches you are pretty close to the original films.

Post
#264819
Topic
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264819/action/topic#264819
Time
Wow, that was really great, and I thought the Jedi mind trick line was pretty funny.

It looks very , very professional, I am really impressed. The cantina music isn't really my cup of tea, but that is purely personal, I think overall it is an amazing clip.

However the voice for Anakin sounds really amateur hour. It sounds exactly like a person 'putting on a voice' and talking slightly below their normal register. It really sounds flat and hokey to me. I have no problem with it not being Hayden's voice, I only saw Sith once, and can't even remember vaguely what he sounds like, but that dubbed voice sticks out like a sore thumb in what is otherwise a really professional piece of work. I don't think it needs to sound like Hayden (he talks very woodenly anyway from memory) but does need to sound real.
It sounds exactly like when I use friends for short films rather than grabbing actors, they always seem to hit that flat kind of sound, whereas actors, even local dodgy stage ones don't seem to do that. I tend to get the local performing group to do voice ADR even if I don't use tham as actors.
The only people who are worse in my experience are 'voice over' people, they make truly horrible voice actors!.

I hope you are putting together a making of or an audio track describing what you did, how and why, it would be great to hear.

Great Stuff!
Post
#264634
Topic
Quick question--
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264634/action/topic#264634
Time
Faster processor, more ram and transcode from one drive to another rather than on the same drive - all of these can speed things up.

Encoding takes a long time, some encodes can take 20hours on a 2GB Ram Dual Core 3GHz machine, it all depends on the codec, number of passes etc. But more RAM (RAM is cheap and 512MB can definately be improved on) and a faster CPU never hurts.
Post
#264623
Topic
Good capture card?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264623/action/topic#264623
Time
The connector doesn't make much difference, the inbuilt RCA socket is already the wrong impedence, the breakout cable doesn't really make matters any worse.

The xpert 2000 gives OK results, not as good as the PDI but quite reasonable and is very cheap. If you are going for a cheapie card then it is the one to go for.
Post
#264617
Topic
Overlaying black bars
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264617/action/topic#264617
Time
The easy answer is load one of your untouched frames into photoshop and measure the black bars you have. You can just use an 'unaltered' scene as your template. rubber band out the picture area and make it transparent, rubber band the existing black bars and make them black.

The bars can be any size depending on how you captured it, at what settings, the source etc. etc. so pulling an existing frame from *your* capture is the easiest way to go.
Post
#264060
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/264060/action/topic#264060
Time
I haven't ever read the novel, not sure how I could be influenced by someone who had.

The problem was the disappointment at the line being missing, I can understand remembering a visual differently, or a garbled version of a line being in my memory, but two actual lines of dialogue, which it now turns out are in the novel I think strengthens the case that it was in a print at some point and was trimmed out later.

I'm trying to think of a way those lines could have been planted in my brain between the first 22 times I saw Star Wars and then next 17 times I saw it 6 months later (My dad was the projectionist at the local cinema at the time). I can't think of a logical way I could have received those lines into my head in between those two times. I admit it is possible, but I can't think of how it would have happened, other than if it was in a trailer or an ad.

When did the novel come out BTW?
Post
#263863
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263863/action/topic#263863
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84


Aside from this logistical improbability, there is also the more important points that i brought up before, which is that most of these scenes were never even filmed. Like Laserman said, its the Bugs Bunny syndrome, which is why so many fans remember weird things, and whose "false memories" even agree with one another.

Regardless though, none of us can *know* if there was a different print made for 70mm that happened to be a short run print (I imagine the 70mm versions were short run), I have personally seen three different theatrical prints of ANH, so it is possible, but I'd reckon that there *was* a difference or three in the 70mm print he saw, but that some of it is false memory - but none of us can know for sure.

edit:

Actually with further searching it looks like the initial release of ESB started with the 70mm prints, this makes the possibility of a different 70mm version to the 35mm version quite likely.

"The Empire Strikes Back" opened with a modest number of initial wave engagements, reportedly 127, most of which are identified in the list below (check this Web site periodically for updates). It appears that with the exception of a few drive-in bookings, all of the first-wave engagements were in the deluxe 70mm format. Additional 70mm engagements were added during the "expansion wave" releases throughout the summer of 1980.

Also of interest to some may be that the 70mm prints of "The Empire Strikes Back" differed from the 35mm version in that some editing differences, additional shots, alternate takes, and extra dialogue can be detected through a comparison of the two versions. It is understood that when the movie was considered "finished," the elements were turned over to the lab and sound facilities so the desired 70mm print order could be prepared. The filmmakers, however, elected to "un-finish" the movie and make a few, albeit subtle, changes that, considering the expense and time involved in re-striking and and/or re-sounding 70mm prints, were reflected only in the film's 35mm prints.


and this from answers.com:
The Empire Strikes Back

The 70mm version of the film was substantially different from the 35mm version that was more widely seen.

The bacta tank scene starts on a close-up of Two-One-Bee and pans right to a close-up of Luke in the tank. It then cuts to FX-7 extending its arm to the tank. There is no cut to Leia, Han and Threepio observing.

Other interesting stuff here. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/7908/lost_scenes.txt

So is there a 70mm bootleg tape out there anywhere?
Post
#263812
Topic
Info Wanted: Question about 1980 uncut Empire
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/263812/action/topic#263812
Time
From the databank
When Luke is suspended in the bacta tank in The Empire Strikes Back, the liquid looks largely colorless due to the lighting on the set. Later, when he is recuperating in the medical center, a look at the tank in the background reveals a deep red hue.

From someone's memories on Amazon. (Is it you?)

I am cursed to have seen the BEST version of Empire!, December 9, 2005
Let me explain: I got sick of waiting for Lucas to release the original trilogy on DVD a long time ago and I actually purchased a LaserDisc player and the so-called 'Original' Star Wars trilogy on laserdisc - only it's not the original Empire Strikes Back that I saw in the theater!!

THE MISSING SCENES FROM EMPIRE STRIKES BACK:
1 - The 'Bacta' scene with Luke in the tank and the medical droid was longer. Thre was a point where Luke was floating in the tank and you see this red goo/dye injected into the tank. Then they pull him out and Leia or 21B (the droid) says something like, 'The Bacta are growing well, the scars should be gone in a day or two...'

When I saw 'Empire' in the theater back in 1980 there was another scene I will never forget that I have NEVER seen since except on the earliest of (bootleg?)VHS copies.

2 - In the battle scene on Hoth in 'The Empire Strikes Back', right before General Veers is about to destroy the power generators, Hobby 'kamikazees' the walker with his snowspeeder. He lets out a blood curdling 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaah!!' on his way in. You see the snowspeeder coming in from General Veers perspective from inside the walker then you see the General - the expression on his face is priceless. The walker's head then explodes as the snowspeeder hits it. Another walker then destroys the power gens a little later. The power gen explosion is also different, it is a more pulled-back shot with full view of a nuclear mushroom cloud superimposed over what were the generators.

Also!
CUT SCENE/AUDIO #3
When the snowtroopers enter the base immediately following the battle, there are some scenes cut out of them rushing in to the command center and the audio has been changed to eliminate a PA announcement that says, 'Imperial troops have entered the base, Imperial troops have entered the base! (then Static as it is cut off presumably by the announcer being killed).

I give up.

It turns out that my local theater may have gotten a 'prescreener' version of the film!
I have purchased the 'Special Editions', the original laserdisc releases, and a bootleg DVD set from eBay and I STILL do not have the original trilogy unaltered. Now I am looking for a VHS with everything there...

Lucas, if you were trying to make me broke and insane - good job.