logo Sign In

Laserman

User Group
Members
Join date
11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

Post History

Post
#52082
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/52082/action/topic#52082
Time
Some more thoughts on 'anamorphic'

I just did some tests, and making the LD's into an 'anamorphic' version really does kill the quality.
I think the reason is two fold.

1) The resize - by resizing the available video without black bars to 720x480, there is some quality loss (though not much)
2) The encoding - this is where it really makes a difference if you are using pro encoding tools. The quality of the encode is much lower, due to the fact that you are encoding full frame 720x480, you end up with a lower quality encode, vs encoding the 4:3 black bar version, where you are effectively not encoding the pixels that make up the "black bar space".

So you are forced to use much higher compression --but not getting any more detail--
It is really noticeable on Jedi, where luke gets out of his x-wing after crash landing. On the anamorphic sets you get a lot of MPEG pixel issues in the fine detail of the xwing. When going with a 4:3 encode, the bitrate is high enough to make them go away.

So it looks like my first version is going to stick to the original format/ratio of the Definitive laserdiscs. I may then do an anamorphic later as it will still look a lot better than the current version due to going dual layer and effectively halving the compression.

Post
#51761
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51761/action/topic#51761
Time
Good point!

But the Dual layer -R drives is at least 6 months to 1 year away for volume production according to Pioneer.

My Dual layer drive will only burn dual layer +R, but will burn single layer in + or -
As there is no -R dual layer media in existence this makes sense

By the time -R dual layer comes out, I think it will be dead in the water, it is just too long a wait, the proposed burn speed is slower than the current Dual +R models, (Let alone what will be available in 6 months) and you would expect that the media will be in mass production for +R for a long time b4 the -R drive is released, so the media will be cheaper on the + format.
With this much head start, I can't see -R dual layer getting much traction, unless the Dual +R turns out to be really incompatible with players. Every player we have tried (about 9 players including the xbox and momitsu) works with the Dual +R Sony media we have.

There has been no widespread testing of the dual layer formats to see which is more compatible, just because your player will currently play 'only' minus R single layer discs doesn't mean it will play dual layer -R, or that it won't play Dual +R.
I have a player that won't play -R discs of any type, but will happily play +RW so go figure.

Its all speculation, but that's how I reckon it will go.
Post
#51676
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51676/action/topic#51676
Time
Dual Layer means you can halve the amount of compression, so effectively the video is much closer to the uncompressed original. You should see less pixel blocking, especially in backgrounds and a considerably better video image, that if well done should be almost impossible to tell from the original laserdisc copy without looking at it a frame at a time, at least on a normal sized TV.

Timeframe for my set will probably be 3 months or more. I only just received my ESB laserdisc today,and soon as I have all 3 I will get stuck into it. (They are hard to find in Australia). We are currently working on the laserdisc player calbrating it and scoping the RGB ouptuts to make sure it is all within spec. It hasn't been used for production for 4 years, so its probably in need of a little TLC.
Post
#51439
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51439/action/topic#51439
Time
The idea is to make it better than the laserdisc original. The sound would be the same, but the colour rendition is a little off on the LD version. We have the colour grading tools here to correct that.

I haven't yet seen the bootleg DVDs that are floating around, but my guess is that if you run a projector the difference will be very noticable if for no other reason than going to a Dual layer output. If running on an uncalibrated small TV then you probably won't see any difference.
My main aim is to have an archival copy of the laserdiscs. Laserdiscs rot, so they will not be around forever, which means the only reasonable qulaity edition of the original films would disappear forever if not digitally archived. I will be archiving the uncompressed digital master as well.
Post
#51394
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51394/action/topic#51394
Time
Yeah, they are thin on features, but the one we have has coaxial digital out, and most of the others could be modified to add it. The broadcast units had MUCH better S to N ratios as well, and most gave better pictures.
You aren't buying one to be a you beaut player, your buying one to get an RGB transfer.
Also some models can take the old laserdisc games and be used with Daphne, and so you can play the original Dragon's Lair, Space Ace etc. But that's a whole nuvva topic.
Post
#51379
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51379/action/topic#51379
Time
The uncompressed capture comes in at around 200GB for 2 hours of footage.
If you did it on a PC using a realtime lossless codec like Huffyuv then you would be at around 60-70GB, so not too bad.
But on the PC, I don't know about the quality of the capture boards, and how many bits per channel they capture etc. You would also want to use decent 75ohm cables and connectors so as not to end up with extra noise and bandwidth crush.

Post
#51378
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51378/action/topic#51378
Time
The whole idea of bittorrent is the more you upload, the faster your download. It is designed to stop 'leeching' and works pretty well.

Pioneer made quite a few RGB capable laserdisc players, most weren't available in the retail channels though, they were sold to Broadcasters and put in Kiosks and Lasedisc arcade systems. There are plenty of them out there. We even have a laserdisc burner that we used to use for frame by frame computer output in the 90s before digital recorders became the norm.

You can still find RGB players on ebay, usually they have come out of information kiosks, or virtual tour rides etc.

Post
#51333
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51333/action/topic#51333
Time
I have seen them from time to time in the DCC+ (direct connect) filesharing universe, plenty of people have offered them here on DVD for basically nix, so why not buy a set, and up them to limewire yerself

Um, I can't remember if I read your message - sorry, please send it again.


Rik, can you PM me a list?

Cheers
Post
#51260
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51260/action/topic#51260
Time
I'm not sure who makes the board in my Workstation, it is probably a silicon image or sirius board, I will crack it open later and have a look. I know I have one of these under the hood on my Challenge. http://futuretech.mirror.vuurwerk.net/siriusvideo.html

You are mostly right about 4:4:4 being in the HD arena, as it is one of the only sources that are actually recorded in 4:4:4 in the first place, so obviously you want to keep it that way when working with it. That's why I mentioned the 4:2:2 solutions that are available to consumers (via rental anyway) that can take an RGB input from a good quality laserdisc player. That would be your best bet, to get it bumped onto digital betacam or similar, and then use that digital stream as your master. You will actually end up with a *better* image than anyone is seeing out of their Laserdisc players that only have S-Video (in all its colour crawling glory)

Your next best option would be a board from someone like a targa, and use it with a lossless realtime codec like huffyuv or similar, and once again come in via RGB from an LD player that supports it. You then want to pull the PCM track off separately and keep it in the digital realm.
Post
#51010
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/51010/action/topic#51010
Time
To answer your questions.

1) You can just keep it as one big file, your authoring software will take care of it.
2) If you have pro level authoring gear, then yes you can choose the layer break.
3) Unfortunately you have to burn a completely full disc. That's right, you have to burn all 8 1/2 GB even if you only use a tiny part of the layer. Means a longer burning process.
4) I am using Sony brand +R dual layer discs that came with the unit.

Re the question about using the camcorder for capture. Read the article I linked to about decimating the Chroma.
Basically I am not talking about 4 to one compression, but 4:1:1 instead of 4:2:2
So you lose 1/2 of your colour resolution by going via DV, plus ON TOP of that you also compress 4 to 1 in size, and then encode for DVD. So it is a bad way to do it if you are after utmost quality (But in reality it looks OK)

I am not using a 'capture card' as such, I am using an SG workstation with an on board lossless 4:4:4 capture system, and then encoding to DVD from that.

but to go ON and ON about how you did it and why you did this and that to improve the quality


I'm only telling people about it because I thought they might be interested in some of the more technical aspects of video, in particular the decimation of colour by the DV format, and the evils of multiple compression.
It's my job, so I kinda waffle on about it coz I love it

Post
#50835
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50835/action/topic#50835
Time
My Dad's bigger than your Dad!

Seriously guys, lets all drop it and move on and back onto topic. I think we are all clear that
a) Anyone here can make whatever version they like for their own use
b) The new DVD's look like they will have a new improved DD soundtrack, different from the one on the SE laserdiscs
c) Everyone was and always is right
d) Everyone here is usually pretty damn nice here, and is here coz they share a common love of the movies. Unfortunately with the intenet being a text only medium misunderstandings occur that wouldn't happen if you were in a room chatting.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic
Post
#50788
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50788/action/topic#50788
Time
I personally wasn't interested in a 16:9 version as I use a CRT projector stack and project onto a 12 foot wide screen.
CRT projectors areinherently 4:3 devices, so that is where my bias comes in. Also on a screen that size you do see the quality drop in the conversion to 16:9, small as it is.

So you are saying that most widescreen sets don't correctly handle letterboxed material? I wasn't aware of that, the only widescreen sets we have at work are all hidef broadcast units, and they don't have a problem.

In that case, I will do a letterbox and a 16:9 version for all you widescreeners out there.

I know the new trilogy is 16:9, so option 1. 'Original as possible' will be letterbox - retaining the LD ratio, and option 2 will be 16:9 for the 'corrected version'

To the guys that are using there digicams to digitise the footage, it is a nice and easy method, but they are not the best quality wise, and you are also throwing away a lot of chroma resolution by downsampling to 4:1:1 before then re-transcoding it AGAIN to DVD.
Ideally You really want to come in to an uncompressed stream, that retains full chroma resolution. (4:4:4)

In practice for most of you, Digital Betacam or DVCPRO 50 are probably the most accessible ways to do this. They at least leave you with 4:2:2 (For a bit of an explanation of Chroma sampling check out http://www.cs.sfu.ca/CourseCentral/365/li/material/notes/Chap3/Chap3.4/Chap3.4.html )
As for the soundtrack, from my reading, the SE versions have had a full remix done from the original multitude of mono and stereo tracks, but I will wait and see what the sound is like. From memory at the cinema, it was very good.
For my 'original' version, I will probably be keeping the stereo track from the laserdisc, it is very good.
Post
#50576
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50576/action/topic#50576
Time
I am in two minds about converting to Anamorphic.
The only real advantage to Anamorphic is when it is shot in Anamorph as you get more resolution on screen.
By converting a non-anamorphic source to anamorphic, you are not increasing the resolution, in fact you are adding a level of processing that can only degrade the image, so I will do some testing, but I can't see an adavantage to it at this stage.

Re mixing the different video and matching it, that is what I do for a living with film, so I am not too worried about getting it right.
I have the tools and the skills to pretty much match anything to anything else, down to matching specific film grains from specific manufacturers, so it should be OK.

Obviously the best point to do it is on scene changes, as otherwise you are asking for trouble.

At this stage I am thinking of 2 versions (maybe 3). All will be DVD-9, and there will be an uncompressed version.

1) As original as possible - Basically a transfer from the LD version with a colour grading to the SE version to match it's colour balance.

The original LD transfer was unfortunately done in a way that muted the colours and reduced the ANSI contrast ratio. I intend tweaking only to grade it to as close to an original film master as possible. As a second pass may try ripping the audio track from the SE to get a dolby digital track, and editing in areas where it is different. Not sure if that will be worth the effort though re the audio, the laserdisc stereo track is very good.

2) The improved edition. Basically as suggested by some here. A hybrid based mostly on the SE leaving in 'error corrections' and maybe some of the less offensive enhancements. (background extensions, matte cleanups etc.) with the dolby digital soundtrack, but getting rid of the horror show like the cantina musical number and so on.

Also thinking about allowing angle selection on changed scenes up to a point.
Wadda y'all think? It will all be for my own personal use of course.
Post
#50490
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50490/action/topic#50490
Time
I sent you an e-mail ubow to the address you PM'd me , so I dunno what's going on, I'll try a PM, and an e-mail again.

DFNYC, I already have a dual layer burner at work (sony gave us one) , and yup that was pretty much my plan, also will be coming in from the LD via RGB to a lossless 4:4:4 capture system, so I am hoping to get a better capture.

The trouble is that the LD version is 'slightly foggy', so my main aim is to de-SE the DVD set when it is released, and then colour match and re-add in the footage from the LD set where required.
I expect the transfer on the DVDs to be considerably better (especially in colour fidelity) than the LD version.

It will give me something to do on the night shift while waiting for renders anyway.
Post
#50272
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50272/action/topic#50272
Time
DigitalfreakNYC sounds like a good guy, I believe you heard back from him now too
Once I get a set from somewhere, anyone in Oz can PM me, as I like to share, and profiteering doesn't interest me at all.
And as soon as I find an actual laserdisc set from a seller that will ship to Australia, we will be making a penultimate transfer!
Post
#50296
Topic
Plot holes in the SW saga
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50296/action/topic#50296
Time
The introduction of Force Commander begins with the Imperial assault on Kalaan, and centers around a family known as the Tantors. Growing up in the midst of civil war battles on Garos IV, Brenn and Dellis Tantor were rescued from the rubble and wreckage of buildings by Imperial Stormtroopers. Looking up to these men as heroes, both boys vowed to join the Imperial forces and maybe, just maybe one day become Stormtroopers themselves. While attending the Imperial academy, their father, a transport pilot, was killed in a rebel attack. This only served to strengthen their resolve to defeat the rebels. Vows and dreams became reality as both became Stormtroopers and were involved in the Kalaan assault. In the course of the assault Brenn took command when their leader was killed and led them to victory. Lucas' attempts to integrate a humanistic storyline into Force Commander, and their efforts here are admirable, but not necessarily effective. What I did find very intriguing and effective about the story is how the missions follow the original "Star Wars" movieText

All clones huh? lol
Post
#50032
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/50032/action/topic#50032
Time
Hey ubow, will gladly go you 'halvies' in a set. let me know how you go with e-mailing df nyc again, he sounds ultra helpful.

I am totally new to all this forum stuff, (I'm old okay!) I do film and video colour grading for a living, and they have just finally granted us internet access for the first time, don't have it at home. I am really keen to make a superb original trilogy DVD-9 set and send it to lucas!

BTW People keep talking about PMs, how do I 'turn them on'
Sorry if its a really stupid question.
Post
#49881
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/49881/action/topic#49881
Time
OK, the different laserdisc versions are reviewed here:
http://www.dvdscan.com/starwarsLD.htm
snip!
The Defintive Collection is in CAV, and despite the haze over the image due to dust on the elements the quality is still impressive. Resolution and detail are very good, only colour rendition does not meet expectations. The PCM sound is just as impressive with excellent bandwidth and dynamic performance. The bass frequencies well developed without any sign of overdrive. The mix itself is wide in stage presence and instruments & effects can be very well distinguished.