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Laserman

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11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

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Post
#72201
Topic
Info Wanted: What do you guys think is (or will be) the best transfer to DVD format?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/72201/action/topic#72201
Time
Hehehe Thanks for the vote
I am sure that anyone could make a better version than mine if they put the time and effort in. I only have the advantage of a few rooms full of high end gear to play with, but so many good tools are available for the lowly PC that you can really get good results if you do the groundwork and approach it like a pro.

I am in two minds as to whether to bother releasing the straight 'archive' of the laserdisc or to wait until I have finished the 'reconstruction' project...

The LD 'archive' version is almost done. I am doing a stabilisation pass to get rid of some of the gate wobble that is so evident in these transfers. Either the cine suite or original cameras (or both) certainly wasn't pin registered!
That will make any further restoration a whole lot easier.
Post
#72200
Topic
***The MeBeJedi feedback thread ***
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/72200/action/topic#72200
Time
Too late - I've already sent it

You will really need XP to use any of the advanced tools - they simply will not install on anything else.You don't really *need* a TV with composite inputs, you can use a standard TV and run the composite out through the VCR first. If you calibrate the TV using video essentials it will still be good enough for a reference for gamma levels etc. It's just that you will see lots of dot crawl and colour bleed that won't really be there

The offer is still there to make you a Dual layer DVD-9 master if you send me the VOB's on two single layer DVD's.

Cheers

-LM
Post
#72135
Topic
***The MeBeJedi feedback thread ***
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/72135/action/topic#72135
Time
Well, Mebejedi, I'm glad the stuff got there - There is a PAL VOB for your reference as well.
Are you running Windows 2000?
You will need to run XP if you want to use that software, all the new stuff that allows frame by frame corrections and so on is XP only.
XP has far superior Dual Monitor Support also. It's really the only PC OS to use for video work.

If you don't hav XP, drop me a line.

-LM
Post
#70984
Topic
Using the '04 SE DVD version to restore the Original (with lots of info)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/70984/action/topic#70984
Time
Oh yeah, just one other thing.
For any of you guys that aren't doing this at work (like me) there are a few things that are important if you want to get a decent archival copy for yourself.

1) Calibrate your systems.
This means setting up your computer monitor and your capture system so that the colours and greyscale are correct befor you begin. Otherwise what looks red on your monitor may look pink on another with disastrous results.
For the home user calibrate your monitor and graphics card first. You can get an inexpensive calibration tool such as the colorvision Spyder (or rent one) and use its automated setup. If you don't have the cash, then at least run through the configuration for your graphics card to set up your colour profiles. Most Nvidia and Radeon cards have a reasonable adjustment tool built in.
Then at the very least grab the video essentials laserdisc and calibrate your input side. (It costs about $25 online)

Do NOT use an LCD monitor, the colour and contrast ratios are too far off for video work.

Then of course you can calibrate your TV as well to view the final product, the Avia Test DVD suite is very good for this.

Even if you never get round to making the bootleg, the upside of all this is that your system will look better than it ever has for all PC work, and your TV will look great also!

2) Use a lossless codec
When capturing from lasedisc, you want to get the best quality you can. At work this means capturing uncompressed.
At home with normal equipment, you can get a manageable filesize by using a lossless codec like Huffyuv or one of the others out there. This way you are not throwing away any detail like you would be if using a lossy compression mechanism, but can still fit each episode onto a 250GB disc.


3) Use a decent encoder with VBR.
When you finally have finished your masterpiece and want to put it out to DVD, use a decent multipass VBR encoder.
If you are working on PC, then the cinemacraft encoder is a very nice tool for this. Adobe encore 1.5 also does a pretty good job. I'm not sure if any of the free encoders on the PC are any good, but asking questions in a place like doom9.org would be a good place to start.
Post
#70983
Topic
Using the '04 SE DVD version to restore the Original (with lots of info)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/70983/action/topic#70983
Time
Well, the laserdisc does not have the chroma and luma stored separately on the disc, We used to prepare laserdisc masters back in '96 and they are composite all the way. The only advantage of coming out via component or RGB is that you can have a better signal path than the original componentry in the LD player.
Theoretically you could redesign the composite output path but keep it in composite video and get a better image than we get with our redesigned RGB output stage, but in reality composite video doesn't 'travel well'.
The idea is to try and reconstruct it (or extract it if you like) in a better way than the laserdisc player can by itself.

You do lose something in the conversion though, it is inevitable, and we found we would lose some horizontal resolution vs the composite out, but pick up much greater detail and a huge reduction in video noise/crosstalk.

All said though, the image is still not great out the other side, even when we retimed the whole thing. The colour and detail looks a lot better than off the laserdisc, but it still looks awful compared to a reference DVD pressing. We are lucky in that we have a complete 2nd reel of the 1978 theatrical release to compare to.

I'm hoping once we have finished on Stealth that I can get back to my inferno room and start work on my archival project again. Funnily enough we also decided to repaint the starfields by hand, and I redid the credit crawl manually - I didn't realise the other languages had it at the right speed D'oh!
So I am going to leave Ep IV for a while and move onto the Jedi ghosts and work backwards as that is the scene I hate the most

With the work mverta is putting in on IV, I may start on Jedi instead.
Post
#70792
Topic
Using the '04 SE DVD version to restore the Original (with lots of info)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/70792/action/topic#70792
Time
Just to answer mebejedi's composite question, yep the video signal on the Laserdisc is a composite signal. (Laserdisc tech info here for the interested folk http://www.access-one.com/rjn/laser/ld_faq.pdf)

To decode it properly into RGB or component will mean a slight compromise in sharpness, but a gain in overall detail.

It has to be done properly though, i.e. as early as possible in the video output chain on the player.
The reason you get more detail is basically because you are designing a better output stage, as well as bypassing (in most if not all players) a fairly noisy video path that is prone to crosstalk and other artifacts. So you end up with a stable signal with a much lower noise floor, that captures 'better'. All good!

So if done properly you get a better picture out the other end. Also, most reasonable capture gear has an easier time capturing an RGB or component signal, so you get less quality loss during the capture phase as well.

You can easily tell if your output is cleaner by going to the colour and resolution test patterns on the Video Essentials disc, on our RGB output the test patterns are much clearer and the colour is so much better it is hard to explain. I will try and do some captures when I get back to the office.
Post
#68275
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68275/action/topic#68275
Time
Well, watching it on a calibrated SMPTE broadcast monitor, the image is not too dark, in fact it is spot on, the colour saturation is a little high, but not overly so - certainly nothing like the screenshots posted.
The problem is that most people adjust their TV to a disc they think is a good reference, but in reality their colour, contrast and brightness settings are way off.
If you don't have access to a colour analyser, then I would at least buy the AVIA calibration DVDs and set your TV up properly.
Having said that, I use a DVD player that remembers the gamma, colour and brightness settings for each disc, as some are so far from reference specs that you need to adjust your unit to get the best picture.
Post
#68209
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/68209/action/topic#68209
Time
It would appear that the 'super colorisation' is peculiar to the Region1 DVD, the R4 set doesn't have it "Set to Whore".
Comparing to some film cels the colour on the R4 set is pretty close to the film.

Also, calibrate your TV - there is a colour control on it - well a color control and a 'tint' control on those crappy NTSC sets
Post
#67169
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/67169/action/topic#67169
Time
BTW, it is also of utmost importance to calibrate your computer/vga monitor if doing graphics or video work, and *then* calibrate your capture system.
An inexpensive system like the Spyder Pro is good for this.

Mebejedi (check your PM) I have sent you some manual PC monitor calibration tools as well that will do the job.
Post
#66613
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/66613/action/topic#66613
Time
Yep, that's right.
The Laserdisc is encoded in composite video, so if the Y/C splitter circuitry in your player is not superb, then you will actually get a better signal via Composite han via S-Video.
If you can get an RGB player, try it - the higher bandwidth on the RGB connector tends to give you less dot crawl and better definition, but once again, only if the players splitting circuitry is up to the task.
*Most* laserdisc players give a better result via composite.
Post
#66546
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/66546/action/topic#66546
Time
My LD set is basically sparkle free, but you are a long way away.
I would try and get a DE set that is in good order, the video noise floor is considerablt lower than the faces set.

After some quick experimenting, I am feeling a little more confident about making a de-specialised edition. We got another LD player in today, a sony MDP, and the quality via its RGB output is stunning, I've never seen the laserdisc image look so good - ever so slightly softer, but MUCH more detail evident, so a mild sharpen brings it much closer to the DVD release.
I tried running the DVD out via analogue into the same capture system we are using, and then you end up with something that would be able to be mixed with the laserdisc footage without jarring the viewer too badly.

Basically I am now thinking I will recapture the LD version again from the sony, get a hold of a US OT DVD release (any one got one spare and capture it into the system via RGB analogue.

I intend to keep the soundtrack from the LD release, I like the new sound on the DVD, but it is far too different score wise.
Then I'll go through the LD version and replace the video with the video from the DVD where applicable and match the sources as closely as possible. The star wars 'wipes' actually make this process work really well, the wipe distracts the viewers eye, so you don't have a hard cut from new to old footage - it makes the transition a whole lot less obvious.
For some scenes we are going to try painting out the offending CG (Most of my work is in scene reconstruction and digital rig removal...its what I do)

i know it sounds nuts, but after a few tests, I am feelign a lot more confident that I can produce a really good looking OT that I can enjoy watching on my big screen, without getting annoyed by the new bits. It may mean some slight enhancements get left in, but that everything I hate about the re-release will be gone.

Now all I gotta do is get me a region 1 release disc...
Post
#66088
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/66088/action/topic#66088
Time
I'm sure you could borrow a video essentials laserdisc in return for giving the owner a DVD set.
It will make a huge difference to the quality.
You can buy it from http://discountlaserdisc.com for 25 bucks.
I'd try and bowwow a better player if you can score one, the amt of sparklies your shows is the most I have ever seen!

Try some of the Home Theater forums like AVS, you may find someone in your area who would be willing to loan you a unit in return for some DVDs
Post
#65958
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/65958/action/topic#65958
Time
I just read my Pm's
Its 2am here, I'll reply in the morning.
Mebejedi, I got your disk today, just had a look at it. Nice job! Congratulations, this stuff aint easy!
Liked the menus and chapters, the commentary shortcuts were really nice also.
To anyone doing this stuff, recreating a 24fps master is *the* way to go, and as mebejedi said, it aint hard.

however to nit pick
Did you take this from the faces set? The huge number of sparklies throughout the transfer would seem to suggest it. Also, on my BIG screen (4m wide) the difference between the faces set video quality and the Definitive video quality is instantly noticeable. I found I couldn't get as good a capture from the faces set either - could be just my player, but I would really suggest using the definitive edition if you move onto Jedi and ESB.

Also, I would strongly suggest calibrating your video capture card to the laserdisc. Grab a copy of video essentials on laserdisc and go through the calibration via your capture card. The gamma and white balance is off on the disc you sent me compared to the LD, especially around 20-40 IRE.
The image is a little dark, which although it takes away from the video feel, a lot of detail was lost in the shadows. Also there is some strobing artifacts on quite a few scenes.

All in all though, I am being a turd, it is a very nice job indeed, and looks great on a standard size TV or on a digital projector where the lack of shadow detail doesn't show.

Well DONE !!!!
Post
#65903
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/65903/action/topic#65903
Time
Oh man, a friend of mine works at blockbuster and brought over the official DVD release of Star Wars. OMG the transfer is incredible, I hate to say it but this is truly a reference transfer... Why oh why can't he release an unmodified version.
There is no way to get the laserdisc to look anywhere near this good, even running the LD through a terranex doesn't get close.
I am still going to attempt my despecialising project, matching the colour grade will be easy enough, but I really wasn't expecting them to make the old films look this incredibly good. The only option may be to slightly degrade the new releases and do my best to improve the LD originals and meet halfway.
Dammit, how hard would it have been for him to put the original scenes in the (endless) extras. Bizzarely the qulaity of this transfer makes me even angrier to think what could've been.

*sigh*
Post
#63083
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/63083/action/topic#63083
Time
The best way to do it is to make a 24fps master from the PAL 25fps source. The PAL source is usually the original 24fps program anyway, just running at 25fps, so its not exactly hard to do.
The other problem with NTSC though is its lower resolution and crappy colour rendition, so you will then have to either resize your master down to NTSC rez, or crop it and lose some of the frame. Either way you are losing some information through interpolation or cutting it off.

Of course if you use a home theatre PC, you can avoid all of these problems and run the PAL master at frame tripled 72fps and get a correct speed, full resolution flicker free luvverly image
Post
#63025
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/63025/action/topic#63025
Time
I have to disagree that the laserdisc will be the closest match to what we saw in the cinemas, I have one reel of ESB on 35mm, and the detail on even a crappy print far surpasses the quality of the laserdisc version. How much dust and crap was on your print is a personal experience, some of us got to see gorgeous prints, others probably got worn out awful prints, so it doesn't make sense to me to archive a lower quality print if a better cleaner one was available.
I think the SE's will be much closer to what you saw at the movies as far as picture quality goes, audio is another thing altogether though. The new mix will probably be far superior to the original cinematic release, from an 'archival' viewpoint, that makes it not the same thing.
But then again the movies have the raw power and grunt when it comes to audio, so a stereo track thumping out through 8 - 12 massive speakers at the movies, to get the similar effect at home, a new 5.1 soundtrack may actually give you an experince that *feels* closer to what you originally got at the movies.

I am quite keen to see what they do with the dvd release, but I am only going to rent it, I know that it won't make much difference to Georgie Porgie me not buying it, but it will make a difference to me

I am still considering despecialising the SE DVD if it is at all possible.
Post
#62893
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62893/action/topic#62893
Time
I think most people just want the movie and the PCM audio.
The Anamorphic and tr47 sets etc exist for people that want the commentaries and heavy duty menus and so on. For listening to the commentaries and so on, they are more than adequate
Also, a 5.1 remix is always a bit trashy from a 2.0 master, for hot sound I think the SE DVD's that are coming will be the go.

To me going dual layer is all about getting the best possible picture and sound, it should be damn close to indistinguishable from the LD original.

I'm in no hurry... my own sets will take months!

But seriously, you do whatever you want re the set - it's your baby.

Cheers.
LM
Post
#62874
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62874/action/topic#62874
Time
Don't worry about scene by scene settings with the software you are using.

I was just using random numbers re the bitrates, take no notice, I was just trying to get the concept across to anyone who may be reading

I would actually go with a higher minimum bitrate, even on really still scenes, if it's too low you get wierdness with film based material because of flutter on non pin registered film.
Anyhoo, it will look a lot better with the higher bitrate that dual layer allows.

I would crop the top and bottom to remove any closed captioning or subtitling, and add them into the DVD subtitles to maximise your video quality.

If you mean extract the closed caption data from line 21 of the NTSC signal, then the SCC tools package will do that.
You can get it here http://www.geocities.com/mcpoodle43/SCC_TOOLS/DOCS/SCC_TOOLS.HTML
Post
#62868
Topic
Info: OT Bootleg DVDs
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62868/action/topic#62868
Time
Go with VBR.
Two pass variable bit rate will give a better result in theory, as you will get a higher bit rate in the scenes that really need it (pans etc.).

i.e. Say you encoded at a fixed bit rate of '7'. This would mean that static scenes would be encoded at 7 and heavily panned scenes would also be encoded at 7. Now 7 might not be enough for the pans and they end up pixellated and blocky.

With VBR a static scene might look identical at '3' and the '4' it saves on that scene could be added to the panning scene where it needs it, and the pan gets encoded at '11', and now looks sweeeet.

This is ultra simplified, but that is why VBR is usually better - The difficult scenes get a higher bitrate (less blockiness) than they could possibly get with CBR. If your software is crappy at analysis though, some static scenes may not get enough bitrare and look a little off.
Thats where the pro software is great, it allows you to set bitrates on a scene by scene basis if you are not happy with the automated process.