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Karyudo

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Join date
23-Oct-2004
Last activity
12-Jan-2025
Posts
805

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Post
#81920
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81920/action/topic#81920
Time
I dunno: I think I've seen better. I mean from you yourself, zion! The problems I think I see are:

- Ghosting. I'd say maybe 5-10 pixels to the right of a sharp edge, like the old guy, or Leia in the last pic, and at both edges. It's subtle, but it's there. Must be an artifact of de-ghosting (ironically)? I don't recall noticing this right away on your previous shots.

- Grain. This is tough, because the source is so grainy. Maybe C3D will help (as you suggest). That, or something else. But I think you're right to try.

- Colour. Yeah, I know you're not finished. The colour isn't so bad, but it seems like there should be more of it -- the saturation's a little low, in my opinion.

- Combing. The edges seem to be combed. Most noticable in the first shot (edge of the Tatooine blue halo). Don't know how or why, or how to fix it (short of cropping it off!).

I'm not trying to poop on your efforts; I know you like constructive criticism, and that's what I'm trying to provide. One of these days I'll get around to posting some of my own caps, at which point I will be wanting mucho feedback, too.

Post
#81286
Topic
.: Moth3r's PAL DVD project :.
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81286/action/topic#81286
Time
Originally posted by: wadetv
The reason that I bring up callibration is if one of your settings is messed up along the way it might look fine on your computer monitor but willl look messed up on people's TVs.


Yeah, I'd agree that calibration is a laudable aim. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge Moth3r is right, and there is no PAL-spec calibration disc available. The best you can do, it seems, is to calibrate your monitor as best you can, and then capture so your picture looks "right". Not at all rigorous, but I guess it'll have to do.
Post
#81254
Topic
.: Moth3r's PAL DVD project :.
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81254/action/topic#81254
Time
Originally posted by: Moth3r
[T]he [video calibration] disc was NTSC (I don't know of any PAL calibration discs)


My point exactly. Sorta irks me slightly when someone proposes (i.e. "Have you tried...?") something that you already know about, and already know doesn't work. Although I do keep an open mind, and hope I'm wrong -- it would make life way easier in this case.

Moth3r, you and I have the same player, and therefore the same problem. Don't know quite how to solve it. I wish every LD had a test pattern on it somewhere, so one could optimize levels independent of the movie!

Post
#81155
Topic
MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81155/action/topic#81155
Time
TheSessler, of course you're right. Once you've got a digital file all authored up, the burner is not a make-or-break item. I have to assume Hal 9000 is fully aware of this, but is referring to something else higher up in the production chain? Because it's certainly true that between ripping the DVD and reburning a modified version there are many steps that can potentially degrade the quality. There are no strict generational losses, but stack up too many counterproductive AviSynth or VDubMod filters, and you could be doing more harm than good.

The only burner issue I can think of that could make a quality difference would be if Hal 9000 is referring to a standalone DVD recorder, maybe? Let's hope not: that's a quick way to re-introduce generational losses and virtually guarantee an end result crappier than the source.
Post
#80610
Topic
Star Wars DVD Covers
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/80610/action/topic#80610
Time
Originally posted by: Chrysophylax
Here finally is my full sized cover:


You know what would make your cover even better (and I already like it a lot)? Making it available as a PNG file instead of JPG.

JPG is lossy, while PNG is lossless. You've got a lot of very sharp, graphic text on a solid black background, which is exactly the sort of thing PNG is great at compressing. Inevitably with JPG you will get some parts NOT being all the same colour.

PNG compresses things more like ZIP does: you can either compress it a little, which is fast; or compress it more, which is slower. But in both cases, ALL the information is kept.

I'll bet that for your cover, a completely lossless PNG version could actually be smaller than a minimally-compressed JPG version!
Post
#80463
Topic
.: The Lancer DVD Project :. (* unfinished project *)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/80463/action/topic#80463
Time
Originally posted by: tellan
I think I should have captured off [the Faces set] instead of the DE. it's a damn sight better considering what I've seen of Zion's and Karyudo's screen grabs.


Thanks for the unsolicited praise! But don't get too disheartened: most of the screen caps you've seen of mine are either from the PAL set or from the Japanese Faces set. Both of those sources are (in my opinion) nicer than the US NTSC Faces set, which is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as the Definitive Collection (which I also have).

The US and Japanese Faces and Definitive Collections are all taken from the same telecine transfer (the PAL telecine transfer is different; it's not just upsampled or converted from NTSC). The DC is CAV, which allows freeze frames better than CLV, and takes more sides. Other than that, it's the same exact thing as the Faces release. The Japanese discs are (probably) at IRE 0, as opposed to the US NTSC standard practice of IRE 7.5. So they're darker (and maybe better mastered?), but still the same source.

Don't forget that Zion has done some pretty fancy post-processing to get his caps lookin' as good as they look. It's not coming off the disc looking that nice!
Post
#79798
Topic
***The "ISOMIX" feedback thread ***
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/79798/action/topic#79798
Time
Damn. I'm pretty new to OT.com, and I've been trying to catch up on my reading. Just got to this thread today, which looks to be about a month too late.

From the comments posted here about a) the menus; and b) the isolated, music-only track, I'm now pretty interested in getting a copy of this ISOMIX trilogy. Can anyone hook me up? Discs, torrents, FTP, Usenet group -- whatever. I'm resourceful (if a bit lazy).

Many thanks in advance!

Post
#79779
Topic
StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/79779/action/topic#79779
Time
Originally posted by: mverta

@Karyudo: I replied to your PM twice... did you get them?


Apparently, I am a huge idiot. I just checked my PM, and nothing. Then I checked my profile -- which I would have sworn I checked and set up properly before -- and it showed that I have PM turned off. Heh, heh.

I hope you'll overlook my stupidity, and send your reply/ies yet again? So sorry for the inconvenience...
Post
#78334
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/78334/action/topic#78334
Time
Originally posted by: Moth3r
Did you change the video decoder format setting from NTSC-M to NTSC-MJ?


No. I thought about it, but didn't. Maybe that makes a difference; I don't know.

I do know I also didn't change it when I started doing PAL caps, and it still worked fine, so maybe what I would have changed is not the setting that needed to be changed.

Still, US NTSC came in lookin' washed out, while the JPN NTSC came in lookin' nice. No crushing of the blacks, I don't think, and neither are the whites blown out.


Post
#78220
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/78220/action/topic#78220
Time
Originally posted by: zion
No. I realized recently that my original capture, compared to Karyudo's Japanese LD capture, was actually pretty identical.


Hmm... I'm pretty sure I haven't posted any Japanese LD caps. I'm capping from PAL for the most part; I only made a few sample NTSC-J caps back when I was testing.

Oh, hell: I have a couple of screencaps. Why don't I post 'em already??

US
Japan

US
Japan

US
Japan

US
Japan

US
Japan

All these caps were made with the same hardware, software, and settings. They were even taken about 5 minutes apart, so the phase of the moon was also the same. To my eye, the Japanese images are better: blacker blacks, and whiter whites. More easily tweakable.

Not tons of difference (same telecine transfer, of course), but at the pointy end of SW LD conversions, maybe worth worrying about?


Post
#75252
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/75252/action/topic#75252
Time
Originally posted by: Moth3rHave you tried the s-video output?

Yeah, I did some A/B testing with four cables: Monster S-video, Monster RCA, generic S-video, and generic RCA. In some cases, I thought there was maybe a bit more chroma aberration (noise, splotches, etc.) with the RCA composite output, but the S-video was definitely softer in more cases. Especially when looking at star fields! Which might not be all that important for many movies, but is sort of an issue for SW...

I figured I'd be able to do a better job of cleaning up chroma junk in AviSynth (et al) than trying to invent resolution and detail, so I went with composite output.

Yes I know that the video stored on a laserdisc is composite to begin with; however, the D925 converts it to RGB for the digital processing circuits, then extracts the chroma and luma for the s-video output. The composite output is the chroma and luma recombined - it would make sense to use the s-video connection and retain the separation.


OTOH, I don't think even the digital comb filters in latter LD players are as good as the comb filters in a decent modern 9- or 10-bit cap card chipsets. Even if it's true that the D925 converts to RGB for processing, that doesn't mean it has to separate Y and C, so no comb filtering needs to occur before composite output. In which case, I'd rather have my cap card take care of that.

But I wouldn't take my word for it: do some testing on your own (like you suggested), and then let us know the results!

Sorry, zion, if this is getting a little off-topic. It's kind of important stuff, I think, but it certainly isn't exactly absolutely necessary in your thread. I think I'm pretty much done, though.
Post
#74946
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74946/action/topic#74946
Time
Originally posted by: zion
Anyway, I have to justify spending $40 on a couple of THX certified Monster composite cables somehow, right?


Heh, heh! Yeah, I'll allow you that. There's no doubt MC makes a nice product, and I wouldn't cripple my otherwise-awesome home theatre with junky $2 cables, either.

For LD capping, though, the way I think about it is, How much better do you think the picture could be because of good cables? One percent? Let's assume you could see that difference with a nice, sharp DVD source. I'd say 1% is actually generous; I think that amount of difference would be pretty apparent, yet a lot of people bicker back and forth about whether cables really make a visible difference. So it could be less than that. But let's say it's 1%, and just visible with a good DVD source.

Now, how much worse than a DVD source is LD? I'd say at least 10%; probably more. You've got luma and chroma stored together (i.e. composite), you've got no anamorphism, you've got picture noise inherent in the format, you've got dot crawl and comb filter issues. Even making an LD, you'd be working from an analog tape (albeit a high-quality one), so you're going to have generational losses just to get the thing onto LD. So maybe that 10% is underestimating things somewhat.

Compare the probably-less-than-1% improvement with the probably-more-than-10% degradation in "reference" signal you're comparing, and you're looking at the cable maybe contributing up to 1/11th of the general crappiness of the picture. I think that puts the cable's importance way down there someplace. Its positive effect probably falls below the measurement (in this case, capping) error of the measuring device (in this case, the cap card).

I could be wrong in some of my estimates, but that's about how I see it.

Now, all bets are off if there is significant noise coming from outside sources! There I'd imagine the MC cable's improved shielding, etc., would eliminate a large quantity of outside noise, which itself could conceivably add substantially to the picture quality degradation. So there you could be looking at the cable eliminating 75% of the source of, say, 10% of the noise, for an overall improvement of about 8%.

Which I have to say, I would pursue.


Post
#74774
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74774/action/topic#74774
Time
Originally posted by: zion
I also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.

Ok buddy, you've just crossed the line with that remark. There is no way in hell that a 2 dollar video cable from Radio Shack is going to transfer the video signal as efficiently as a high quality dual-shielded Monster Cable. If you're not seeing a difference, it's because you're lucking out and not getting any noise introduced into your signal.

Nothing more to see here. Move along.


It was more like a free cable from Apex! You're right: in theory, and in the lab, I think the MC is measurably better. Good construction, large amount of signal path, great shielding. For a high-quality HD signal or something, I think the MC cable would make a difference. But LD (any LD) is already so noisy and soft (and composite to boot) that I don't think the miniscule amount of noise introduced by a poorly-shielded cable makes any difference at all in a setup where outside RF noise isn't already an issue.

I can post some screen caps taken with the two cables, but believe me, there's no difference. The HQ/no HQ thing Moth3r and I have been discussing makes way more difference.

If you're seeing a difference in your setup with a MC cable, then that's what you should be using! For me, I wanted to believe MC was demonstrably better, but strictly-controlled A/B testing and a completely uninterested third-party opinion (my wife's) showed me the extra $60 or so wasn't worth it.
Post
#74767
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74767/action/topic#74767
Time
Originally posted by: Moth3r...some people say that the older model CLD-2950 which [the CLD-D925] replaced had a slightly better picture quality...

I read that, too. But then the best, most objective-sounding review I could find opined that the 925 was, in fact, just a bit nicer. So I went for that one. I don't think there's much between them, either way.

And yes, in my A/B testing I did find turning the HQ circuit on actually made the output picture worse. Sort of softer, and more red. I also discovered there is no difference between the cheapest RCA cable and Monster Cable's near-top-of-the-line fancy-ass thing.

As I understand it, you should use telecide on the capture to combine the fields back into progressive frames before any processing.


That's what I thought I read. I'm just lazy; I should really try it myself instead of asking alla time.

@tellan:

I use YUY2 exclusively, and have never had any problems with AviSynth or VDubMod. Never tried Premiere et al, though.


Post
#74690
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74690/action/topic#74690
Time
Originally posted by: grisan
So you are not the only crazy collector on this board :-).

Wow. I should have limited my claim to "the biggest collection of stuff owned by a sane North American". Because you, my friend, appear to be neither!

I kid. Really, that's a stupidly impressive collection. You never picked up any digital TV broadcasts, though, eh? Or actual film? Maybe I'm still in with a chance...

I am also working on a PAL version


Oh, I know! I've been following your thread, too.

Which PAL version was your source?


You're going to love this: those caps are from the French versions you don't have. Of course. I've got both the German and French versions, but the French version has nicer saturation, I feel.

Post
#74671
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74671/action/topic#74671
Time
Yeah, my strategy from the beginning (a long time ago now...) was to find and acquire the best possible source first, and then work on making it look as good as it could with as little post-processing after that. So I've done a bit of LD collecting as a result. I have the DC, several copies of 'Faces', the Japanese 'Collector's Set', and a few different PAL sets. Not to mention the SE LDs from both the US and Japan. Oh, and some DVB broadcasts and suchlike. I doubt anyone has a much more complete collection of junk than I have...

I started with a Denon LA-2300 for capping AC-3 from the SE discs, and then I got the idea to go PAL (in large part because I hated the idea of stray combed frames being left over from the infernal IVTC), so I had to pick up a PAL player. I kinda figured, "In for a penny, in for a pound," and got myself a Pioneer CLD-D925 -- the best PAL-spec player Pioneer ever made. Maybe not as nice as some of the NTSC-only players made for the Japanese market, but still the best I could get my grubby little hands on.

Post
#74666
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74666/action/topic#74666
Time
@zion:

re: blackness --

I think you'd probably find capping from the Japanese 'Collector's Set' quite interesting: it's the same NTSC transfer as 'Faces' and the DC, but it's noticably darker right off the top. I suspect it has something to do with the fact Japanese NTSC is IRE 0, while US/Canada NTSC is IRE 7.5. Or something like that. I think I've got it right, but I'm no member of the ITU or IEEE...

re: my caps --

Here are three caps. I've tried to get the exact same frames as you; these were the easiest. The two space ones are without any enhancement at all -- just resizing. The face one has some sharpening (thanks, Laserschwert!) applied, but otherwise that's it. Well, except for resizing again, of course.

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2654/zionthread01040285ih.jpg
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/5646/zionthread03055831gk.jpg
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4927/zionthread09110557qb.jpg

I think I will probably eventually get around to some colour correction. At least on the corridor shots, I think everything's a bit yellow-looking. For the meantime, suffice it to say that these caps are not optimized. Like you, I'm interested in getting the best. With all the tools available, everything starts to blur and it gets really, really tough to know what looks right anymore. Also like you, I'm keen to hear from some interested observers as to how I might tweak things to make the results better.

By the time I'm done this monster of a project, I suspect I may have broken the thing down shot by shot and tweaked everything a bit!

(P.S. You'll notice the bit of crud on the very right of the first cap, on the brown surface of Tatooine, just inside the bluish halo. That's the sort of stuff I've been rotoscoping out. I've probably done this frame already, but I re-capped this LD side recently and haven't gotten around to re-aligning the script to replace the frames I've fixed.)
Post
#74662
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/74662/action/topic#74662
Time
@zion:

I don't suppose you could give frame numbers for your caps, could you? I'm trying to find the same exact frames in my own clip, and some are very difficult to find quickly. (In fact, maybe all preservationists should agree on a common 'Frame 0000' so these things are easier to compare globally...?)

My initial impressions are that you've gone too blue, and that maybe there's too much contrast. I hardly see any stars around the escape pod or the Star Destroyer, for example. I dunno: it's sorta beginning to look like it's over-processed. In my opinion, trying to make this look too much like the 2004 DVD isn't necessarily a good thing. As Mike Verta has shown, there have been some dubious decisions made for the DVD regarding colour-correction, etc., that maybe shouldn't be held up as a model.

Or perhaps this is just a reflection of how different the PAL and NTSC versions are? You're definitely having to make your silk purse out of more of a sow's ear than I am.

I'm gonna have to post some sample frames of my own in order to back this up, aren't I?