Jonno

Found it at 665x998:

And a couple more alternates from the same Falcon shoot:

I've yet to hear of a Warner title that has different video on its HD-DVD and Blu-ray versions - that studio would regularly use identical VC-1 encodes for both (I see Blade Runner was mentioned earlier in the thread, but it's definitely identical in the original releases).

Interesting that Universal did so with such regularity, then - almost as if they were aiming for two different markets.

Fair enough, I guess some decks are more flexible than others. I should have been more specific - it's an 'optional' format for BD but a standard for HD-DVD, and since the HD-DVD version has no core DD stream you won't hear anything if your player doesn't support it.

I admire your ambition, Andrea! I can't say which I prefer without a better reference, so I have no dog in this fight (Siberian Husky or otherwise).

Getting access to a film print may be a stretch, but what other release formats could we cross-check? VHS? Was there a Beta tape?

Also Apollo 13 is much better in HD-DVD.

Yep, the Xbox drive is just great. I've used AnyDVD to rip to a folder, and then ClownBD to restructure it into a Blu-ray... just be aware that Dolby Digital Plus isn't supported by Blu-ray players so needs to be downconverted to standard DD (unless you're replacing the soundtrack altogether).

_,,,^..^,,,_, no apologies necessary, though thanks for the explanation!

Is this the PAL disc you have? It's well regarded in picture terms but I should imagine it's comparable to the 1990 NTSC disc (it's certainly the same - altered - mix). Still, if you'd like to do a capture we could exchange and compare (though I've never dabbled with PAL > film rate conversion so the syncing would be over to you!)

On the VC-1 vs. AVC argument, I really hate to re-encode but VC-1 is just such a dog to work with (sync being one of its many potential problems). For what it's worth, even if people do choose to convert the video our audio should remain perfectly compatible (provided frame count/rate are preserved).

Just to clarify, these are the discs that I have captured (and yes, this thread is about The Thing, not EFNY!)

Universal Letterboxed edition (1990)

Universal Signature Collection (1998)

I only have the means to capture the PCM Dolby Stereo, not the 5.1 AC-3 - though as others have said, that is probably an identical mix to the one included on the DVD (and perhaps even the HD versions), and unless there's some evidence that it's a 70mm 6-track transfer I'm not particularly interested in messing about with that.

(The remixes have their supporters - apparently they sound quite close to the original - but they're remixes nonetheless and I'm looking for a purer source here.)

The HD-DVD video is demonstrably the best choice for picture, so I'll certainly be syncing to that. As to whether to keep it VC-1 or convert, I guess that's for individuals to choose for themselves but personally I'll do my very best to not re-encode if I can avoid it (though since VC-1 can be a bugger to work with I may have no choice there).

So folks want both versions then? I guess that's my summer taken care of...

I’m looking to sync a theatrical stereo sound mix for The Thing to the BD (or, more likely, HD-DVD) video and was hoping someone could help me make the right choice.

First of all, here’s a rough timeline:

1982: The Thing released in 35mm Dolby Stereo and 70mm 6-track

1985-1987: Initial home video versions released. The song ‘Superstition’ is redubbed by Universal with ‘One Chain Don’t Make No Prison’ (none too carefully - see link below)

1990: Universal letterboxed laserdisc with digital PCM - retains the altered soundtrack from previous releases

1998: Signature edition laserdisc and collector’s edition DVD released. Both include a 5.1 remix (reinstating ‘Superstition’), while the laserdisc also contains a stereo PCM track

2006 on: HD-DVD and Blu-ray released with HD variants of the 5.1 mix

There’s more information on the home video changes in comments from producer Stuart Cohen found here: http://thethingfan.fr.yuku.com/reply/41808#.UeRAFG3UccO (post 56 in particular)

So here’s the question: I’ve captured both the 1990 letterbox and 1998 signature editions (thanks again Bigrob!) Which is truer to the original? The concern is that the 1998 stereo is just another incarnation of the remix for 5.1, but with its original content it would be the preferable choice.

Opinions please. Winning mix gets synced!

zeropc said:

wasn't the thunderdome 5.1 mix derives from the 70mm 6-track audio?

Are you referring to this review? That guy makes the leap that the 6-track mix was 'presumably' the basis for the 5.1 - unfortunately that is far from a given, it being much easier for the studio to do some roughly directional upmixing on a 35mm mix source.

Still, it's good to hear that people are liking the BD track - I'll certainly listen to it properly before dismissing it entirely (particularly in the absence of a laser track to use).

Chewtobacca said:

That would be excellent.  If it's at all possible, please sync it to the old MPEG-2 BD rather than the Ultimate Hunter Edition, which was heavily DNRed.

That's a given - I didn't go anywhere near that remaster after hearing the reviews and seeing the screenshots. The first release is as good as we have for the time being, though I'm hoping against the odds for Fox to give this film the same treatment as Aliens - folks can moan about the colour revisions, but the detail wrung from that 80s stock is nothing short of phenomenal.

Indeed I'm quite keen to do Aliens next, using the theatrical audio from the 1995 laser. Which incidentally also has an AC-3 track, though I'm not certain what that is derived from - I've certainly seen no claims of it representing the 70mm mix, as was the case with the contemporaneous Alien release. This is rather academic anyway since I sadly have neither the means to listen to or capture laserdisc AC-3...

Terrific, glad to hear it fellas. I've yet to rework my intro with the 4:3 WB logo but I'll let you know when it's done and uploaded.

Not sure whether to put the time in on Thunderdome or not. I wouldn't have bothered were it not for the fact that I had a quick listen to the opening of the new BD, and 'One of the Living' sounds downright strange. I'll keep an eye out for a laser in case the urge seizes me!

Living Daylights is pretty much done now, subject to testing.

I'll be very happy to sync SWLM if that's of any use - it's another of my favourite Bonds.

Any love for Moonraker? That score would sound tremendous in PCM...

I have a copy of the Predator laserdisc I'm planning on capturing and syncing when time permits.

Fox have used 4.0 elsewhere - Point Break and the first two Alien movies. In the Alien discussion we reasoned that 4.0 is more likely to represent a discrete channel encode of the Dolby Stereo (the 4 channels being L, R, C and S) rather than any 70mm mix, but it's hard to say with any certainty.

Just sent you the links, Stamper, sorry for the wait! If I've forgotten anyone else, please PM me.

Re. the opening logos, my laserdisc is inconclusive since it's pan and scan - this is the one I used:

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/09286/11181/Mad-Max-2:-The-Road-Warrior-%281981%29

There's a letterbox issue from 1994 which I don't own - I went for the earliest release with a digital track to minimise the likelihood of 'improvements' having been made to the sound.

Does anyone have a widescreen VHS copy?

Now that's interesting! Do you have a reference for this? The widescreen VHS and DVD had the replaced logo, and I've never seen a widescreen presentation prior to that.

It just happens I've recently purchased the Criterion blu of Badlands with its Bass logo present and correct. 1.85:1 will probably crop to 4:3 quite effectively.

Indeed - given that the SR advantage is one of fidelity rather than channel separation, a home viewing version needs only sound good enough (though it's interesting to note that this high quality copy of Fanfare is the only one I've seen that doesn't have the SR logo at the end).

Now, what I'd really like to see is a logo for 70mm 6-track stereo. I've no idea if one was ever made, but for my own amusement I put my own together using the audio from one of the Dolby trailers. If you have a section for unofficial clips I guess you may want to include it...

PDB said:

Great project Andrea, can't wait to see the results. I found these Dolby Stereo trailers on YouTube a few years ago. They are circa late 1970s into the 80s, same era as the Mancini trailer (great trailer). Not great quality but there you go:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nZnBPwPRFY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u9GIHHkZOE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsRIVD8zwQU

 

I love this trailer. I persuaded one of the guys who uploaded it to Youtube to send me his VHS - I recaptured this and two other similar Dolby trailers for a higher quality preservation. Sadly his tape was a second generation copy, so even though I've cleaned up some particularly noisy frames there's still an obvious VHS 'shimmer', but I think my versions are about as good as they currently get (and they sound great on a surround system):

(edit: links removed since someone decided it was clever to upload my work to youtube without permission or credit)

(_,,,^..^,,,_ ,  I'll arrange to upload uncompressed versions of these for your project. They're all 480p).

Ah, so the version used on the VHS then. Any idea of a good quality source? DVD will be fine...

Thanks Captain. I think the best solution is to maintain the matching audio for the 'revised' logos for the first few seconds to properly match the Blu picture, but offer a replacement logo BDMV - upscaled from my PAL DVD shown above - for those who are fussy about such things.

Fellas, I'm just looking at the sync on TLD and have a quick question about the opening logos. The Blu-ray (which I seem unable to grab from at the moment - sorry) has an 80s/90s MGM 'Lion' logo which segues into the simple blue UA ident.

The laserdisc audio doesn't match, however - it seems more in keeping with the 'continuous' logo seen on the SE DVD, which looks like this:

And then there's another variant of this on the VHS, it seems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WDFJXz8U84

So I guess the question is, what does the laserdisc use, and which is the most theatrically authentic?

Ok, I've done my resync of the theatrical stereo to match the new BD - PM me if interested.

In addition, here's my guide to replacing the WB logo with the original:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/BD-studio-logo-replacement-a-simple-guide/topic/15647/

For my own purposes I put together a little sequence incorporating a Dolby Stereo trailer, a UK 'X' rating card and then the 1972 Bass logo. Let me know if you'd like to use that yourselves and I'll upload it.

Aside from sound mix and colour timing changes, 'modernised' studio logos on new releases of older films are one of the revisions most likely to pop out and spoil the experience (for all their brief duration). The Bond movies are particularly disappointing in this regard, though most studios have been guilty of this trend at one time or other.

This guide details a method that I've found effective for simple logo replacements on Blu-ray titles. The advantage is that no reencoding of the main feature is required, so you maintain the full quality of the source; the downside is that it only offers a simple cut in video and audio, so it may not be suitable in cases where picture or sound continue across the transition.

You'll need:

The source Blu-ray for the feature you want to edit, an HD source for the original logo that you want to reinstate, TSMuxer and MultiAVCHD.

Part one: preparing the main feature

To begin with, you will need to make the necessary modifications to the main movie. The first step is to watch the opening of your movie and note the point at which the unwanted studio logo ends. I'll use WB's Mad Max 2 as an example: the current CG 'shield' logo has been added to the master, and fades to black at 17 seconds. You're going to perform a simple trim on the movie using TSMuxer, so you'll either need a rip of the disc ready on your hard drive or an unlocking tool such as AnyDVD that will let you work from the disc directly.

In either case, open TSMuxer and on the main 'Input' tab open the playlist for your main movie (using the playlist rather than the media files has the advantage of retaining the chapter points, plus it preserves the sequence of branched titles). On the list of streams, remove any that you don't want to keep - you may be taking this opportunity to add another audio track from elsewhere, so do that now.

Next, move to the 'General' tab where you will see the list of chapters. VERY IMPORTANT: you need to add a chapter mark to this list at the cut point you chose earlier - this will allow precise navigation to this point after the excess media has been removed. In my case I'm adding 00:00:17.000 to the chapter list.

Now move to the 'Split & Cut' tab. Tick the 'Enable cutting' checkbox and enter the time where you want your movie to start - I'm entering 17.00s.

Finally head for the 'Output' section at the bottom. Indicate that you'd like to make a Blu-ray disk, specify an output location and hit 'Start muxing'.

Part two: preparing the new logo

There are many ways to achieve this, but the main objective is to create a BDMV folder with the same audio/video characteristics as your main feature - this will ensure a smooth transition between the replaced logo and the movie itself. This may be as simple as finding another Blu-ray movie with the correct logo, and using TSMuxer's cutting tool to isolate that logo (in which case you'll be setting an End point rather than a Start point).

My preferred method is to use a video editor - Premiere Pro in my case - to trim and package the logo, including a clean fade to black and silence at the end. This method is particularly useful if you need to upscale another source, e.g. a DVD copy, to get the correct version. When you've done editing, export the video as 1080p AVC and the audio in the same format as your main movie (AC-3, PCM etc.), before using TSMuxer to package it as a (very short!) Blu-ray folder.

Part three: Combining the two parts

The best tool I've found for combining separate pieces of BD video into a semi-seamless sequence is MultiAVCHD's 'Merge playlists' function.

Start by opening MultiAVCHD and clicking the 'AVCHD / BDMV / DVD folders' button at the top. Browse for your replacement logo BD folder and open it (when asked if you want to switch to Blu-ray re-author mode, click 'No').

Next click the 'AVCHD / BDMV / DVD folders' button again and browse for your movie folder. Again say no to entering re-author mode.

You will now see the two parts you need in the compilation list. Click the 'merge playlists' button  and specify a storage folder - this will create a combined playlist with all the necessary media.

One final step - convert this folder into proper BD format. To do so, click the big 'Start' button to the lower right and select 'Blu-ray disc'. This will copy your material to a folder in your default destination path (specified in the main window) - be sure to set this first.

Finally, test and burn your completed disc folder!

I hope this guide has been of some use - if anyone has any further questions feel free to let me know, and likewise if anyone can suggest any improvements to my method, I'd be pleased to hear from them.

I'll be pleased to offer my syncing services, particularly since you've attained bitperfect captures of the PCM tracks (something I don't have the means to do myself). Would you like to PM me to talk about TLD? I'll send you some links to my Ghostbusters, Alien and Mad Max 2 syncs if you'd like to check my credentials!

Good to hear from you, m. I'll pm you the links in a moment.

Fantastic to hear that you might be able to extract that AC-3 for us! That's pretty much the Holy Grail of this project. Syncing of that will take longer (the rather clunky Womble is the only tool I know that can edit 5.1 AC-3 without reencoding) but it'll become my top priority once you manage the capture.

I actually have quite a soft spot for the 1999 DVD myself - I can remember the excitement of importing it from the US and exploring the features and commentary. And of course the film looked and sounded fantastic, at least for the time. I can certainly try to fit in a sync for that, but realistically I'll only have time (and patience!) for one - would you prefer the Dolby Stereo or 70mm mix?

As I've mentioned, I haven't done a full video test with the Dolby Stereo PCM but a quick sample indicates it's noticeably stronger and clearer than the weak-sounding '99 AC-3. Don't be surprised if it's a little quieter than the 70mm mix - the disc was mastered at a lower level (though it would be hard to match the 1995 laserdisc, whose PCM track is the most boisterous I've yet to encounter!)