John Doom

Lord Haseo said:

[‘The Force Awakens’] was a bridge and a kind of reminder; the audience needed to be reminded what ‘Star Wars’ is, but it needed to be established with something familiar, with a sense of where we are going to new lands, which is very much what 8 and 9 do. The weird thing about that movie is that it had been so long since the last one. Obviously the prequels had existed in between and we wanted to, sort of, reclaim the story. So we very consciously — and I know it is derided for this — we very consciously tried to borrow familiar beats so the rest of the movie could hang on something that we knew was ‘Star Wars.’ - JJ Abrams

So take that quote however you deem necessary.

I see what he means. It makes sense for the audiance, but otherwise there’s no in-universe explaination (which I dislike). It all comes down to whether one accepts this mirroring for what it is. I don’t find his reclaiming the story a solid reason for mirroring in TFA’s plot (especially so heavily) and I strongly hope they’re really going to stop doing this for the next movies (it’s a “deal breaker” for me), but I understand his decision and who agrees with it.

If anything Poe’s story is more similar to Rey’s. Poe is the one who puts the information in a droid. Poe is the one who get’s captured shortly there after. Poe is also interrogated but difference is that he gave in to Kylo’s mind probing. And Poe is the one is is broken out of captivity. Also unlike Leia Rey is actually interrogated about the mcguffin.

😄 50/50 then, I guess. If like J.J. said TFA’s mirroring are scene related rather than character related (like the PT), then I guess it doesn’t need to work specifically to a certain character, so I think it makes sense.

Unfortunately the cloning chamber was far from being practical, see here.

EDIT: btw, have you ever seen this? 😄

Lord Haseo said:

You’re still ignoring the fact that the setting makes the actions of the people in play out very differently. If the Falcon had been doing any maneuvers and shit you’d be right. The stuff that actually happens in the scenes are far from similar. Answer these questions:

Did the Chewie almost crash the Falcon before the chase began?
Did the Falcon bob and weave among other maneuvers to escape and/or destroy the TIEs?
Did Chewie fly into any structures to avoid a TIE Fighter?
Did one of the canon/s get shot?
Did the last TIE Fighter get destroyed due to the pilot maneuvering The Falcon in such a position so that the canon (while stuck) can get a perfect shot?

And that’s why I said the difference lies mostly in being on the ground. Like you pointed out, there’s also the gun jamming, but otherwise you get lots of visual references and a rehashed plot point: the main characters are escaping with the Falcon while chased by two TIEs. It’s still a remake, but thankfully it’s not exactly the same scene, but if you ask me why I prefer the PT when it comes down to shared references, it’s because in the PT there’s not a single scene that has so many “references”, it always feels more fresh. Again, in comparison the astreoid chase in AOTC only shares the setting (which actually looks very different), but not only plays completely differently, its plot point is completely different too, not even similar.

The PT has a solid reason to make Anakin’s journey mirror Luke’s

Because Lucas. That’s what this is all about when we get down to it. People are fine when Lucas takes stuff from Flash Gordan, Akira Kurosawa films (both in SW and TPM), Dam Busters etc. and even when he does it to himself. It’s just written off as paying homage and in the PT’s case…poetry but when JJ does it it’s considering ripping off.

Like Lucas, if J.J. wants to make “poetry”, he also has to give us a solid and coherent reason, or it really is just ripping off.

but can you tell me what character mirrors who in the OT and for what reason?

Qui-Gon […]

I meant in TFA, maybe I wasn’t clear enough, sorry 😄

Similitarities with who or what and why?

To Luke I guess and the reason being the whole history repeating itself thing. They seem to be mirroring Rey’s journey less than Luke’s so I hope they go in a completely different direction from here on out.

Are you sure, though? See how she also mirrors with Leia.

It all comes down to the reason one would mirror two characters or situations.

I disagree. In terms of the conversation I think the things that happen in the scenes matter more than the intent or even the outcome of such scenes.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

So Rey was aboard a ship with the stolen SKB plans and was stunned by a Storm Trooper after putting it in a droid and then is interrogated with a mind probe droid as to the location of The Resistance base and then is rescued by one of our main characters masquerading as a Storm Trooper? I guess I need to watch the film again…

It’s a mirrored plot point, there’s no reason to deny it. If you think it isn’t, considering Anakin meeting Qui-gon on Tatooine mirrors Luke’s meeting with Ben, tell me when did Luke have to work for Watto, play in a podrace to win his freedom, promise her mother he’ll be back to free her too. Same with Anakin destroying the droid control ship: when did Luke join the attack disobeying his master? Do you remember when Luke falls in love with Leia and later brings her to Naboo to protect her and marries her? What about Luke fighting side-by-side with Ben while Vader tried to escape? :\

Lord Haseo said:

Also why are we comparing Leia with Rey? Rey is our main character and Luke was never captured by force (remember that the whole thing at Jabba’s Palace was all part of his plan) in the OT. If anything we should be comparing those too. And them both being female has nothing to do with anything so don’t go there.

It’s not because they’re both female, it’s because Rey being captured and interrogated on the SKB heavily “mirrors” Leia’s experience in ANH. As for why it mirrors, I’d like to ask J.J. this myself 😄

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
Besides the fact it plays on the planet, it has so many references you could say it’s almost a 1:1 shot-by-shot remake of the Falcon’s escape from the DS (I think someone also posted a gif depicting this).

No you can’t. You can’t tell me that Han and Luke shooting at TIE Fighters while the Falcon was pretty much flying without movement is the same as the chase scene in TFA where Rey is doing maneuvers to evade the TIEs even to the point of setting up that circus shot at the end. Also having it be in a desert and inside of a Star Destroyer adds a completely different dynamic to the chase whereas in SW where it’s just in space.

😄 Exactly what I said: the difference lies in the fact they’re still on the planet, so you have Rey doing maneuvers to the avade the TIEs. Compared to what was done in the PT (in AOTC/TESB’s asteroid chase sequence, for example, where only the setting was shared, but what happend was different) there are so many visual references 75% of the scene plays the same as in ANH, it’s a fact.

Also the gif is just the movement of Han and Finn in the seat. Which is really the only thing you can accurately compare.

There are much more references, watch it here. It’s a clear remake, minus the fact they’re on the planet.

Right, but for Luke and Anakin journeys to mirror the way I said, it necessarily had to.

There’s other ways he could have lost his hand. But then again why is mirroring right in the PT but is bad in the ST?

The PT has a solid reason to make Anakin’s journey mirror Luke’s, but can you tell me what character mirrors who in the OT and for what reason?

TFA had no reason to make Rey’s journey to Luke’s, though, so it’s fine.

Neither did Anakin’s. They could have made it so there were similarities here and there but just like TFA they went overboard with it. In this regard even moreso.

I disagree.

But Rey’s journey isn’t over yet so other similarities may arise.

Similitarities with who or what and why?

If we’re comparing movie to movie it’s definitely an overt mirroring. Certainly more overt than Han’s death.

It all comes down to the reason one would mirror two characters or situations.

Frank your Majesty said:

And the PT taking place right on Tatooine is acceptable because it mirrors Luke’s journey? Why can’t TFA mirror Luke’s journey?

Frank your Majesty said:

The prequels didn’t have any reason to exactly mirror Luke’s journey, either.

Anakin’s journey mirroring Luke’s is made clear since TPM, so it makes sense that Qui-gon finds Anakin on Tatooine (and since Anakin was Luke’s father, it still makes sense he was living on Tatooine too). The reason is so we can finally compare Luke’s journey to Anakin’s, to see why they were alike yet different.
Why would TFA mirror Luke’s journey, though? I can’t find an answer, since there are lots of references in TFA, but mirroring is done for very different characters throughout the movie, so there’s no consistence to begin with.

To this, there are WAY more rehashed plot points, and this time for no actual reason at all:
-a droid carries important data;
-the one who got the data, later gets captured (were they trying to compare Poes’s journey to Leia’s? For what reason? 😄 )
-the droid gets on a desert planet that looks almost exactly like Tatooine;
-the main protagonists have to escape this planet while chased by the empire/FO;

Luke’s journey etc.

Mirrored for who and for what reason?

-the Falcon is caught in a tractor beam;

Completely different situation.

That’s true, it’s more like a visual reference.

-the old man examines the droid’s data (for what reason Han has to mirror Ben?);
[…] -the old man is killed by the main villain (again, why Han has to mirror Ben?);

Han’s now a father, so making him a father figure to Rey establishes this character trait.

Was Obi-wan like a father to Luke? He was an acquaintance and him mentor. Han is not Rey’s mentor (in fact, she knows how to repair the Falcon better than him 😄 ). Palpatine was also a father figure to Anakin, but they didn’t have him to kill him in the PT to enstablish his role 😄

-the empire/FO is lead by a hooded darkside user;

By this point, that’s pretty much a prerequisite for Star Wars. Had it been otherwise, people would have bitched about it, too.

I also saw lots of people bitching because they didn’t get a military commander instead. Snoke didn’t have to look so much like Palpatine either, though.

-one of the main charcters is captured AND interrogated EXACTLY in the same base they were to destroy (don’t tell me J.J. wanted to mirror Rey’s journey to Leia’s, again for what reason? 😄 );

Why not?

What would they accomplish making Rey mirror with Leia? Are they somehow alike? Do they fill the same role? Is Rey a Republic leader?

Lord Haseo said:

Funny thing is when I tell someone that Rey and Finn stealing the Millennium Falcon and flying through the desert and even inside a crashed Star Destroyer is different from how the escape from Tatooine played out in STAR WARS they don’t want to hear that shit.
We can apply your post to a great many things in TFA.

Besides the fact it plays on the planet, it has so many references you could say it’s almost a 1:1 shot-by-shot remake of the Falcon’s escape from the DS (I think someone also posted a gif depicting this).

Reference to Luke’s journey, the reason the PT itself exists: to show us how Anakin and Luke were alike, yet different. We already knew he had a robotic hand since ROTJ (which was shown exactly for the same reason), so he kind of had to tell us how it did happen 😄

That’s true but it didn’t necessarily have to happen by the hands of a Sith Lord in the second movie to which our hero defeats him in the third one in front of Palpatine.

Right, but for Luke and Anakin journeys to mirror the way I said, it necessarily had to.

A Jedi finds a Force Sensitive on a desert planet and takes him off world to train in the ways of the Force

Other references to Luke’s journey.

It’s still less original than what happens in TFA regarding Rey being noticed as a Force Sensitive.

TFA had no reason to make Rey’s journey to Luke’s, though, so it’s fine.

This Jedi is then killed later in the film by a Sith Lord in front of our hero/s

Award ceremony at the end (not really a plot point but an overt parallel nonetheless)

No, a character death is an actual plot point. The way in which he dies would be a visual reference. Also I even said the Award Ceremony wasn’t a plot point so it’s a bit redundant to point that out.

Except for the “NOOO” 😄 visual reference, it didn’t affect the plot the same way, so I’m not sure it’s actually rehashed: Luke is still an apprentice and now without a master, Obi-wan is already a Jedi Knight and has no need for more training (actually, he is the one who has to train now).

EDIT: Sorry, I have to go to dinner now, but I’ll come back later to reply you.

Frank your Majesty said:

And how is TFA any different?

Though I recognize TFA is not exactly like ANH, unlike for the PT it took references and rehashed plot points to the extreme. There are visual references everywhere, and they are much more evident than in the PT (like Jakku looking exactly like Tatooine).
To this, there are WAY more rehashed plot points, and this time for no actual reason at all:
-a droid carries important data;
-the one who got the data, later gets captured (were they trying to compare Poes’s journey to Leia’s? For what reason? 😄 )
-the droid gets on a desert planet that looks almost exactly like Tatooine;
-the main protagonists have to escape this planet while chased by the empire/FO;
-the Falcon is caught in a tractor beam;
-the old man examines the droid’s data (for what reason Han has to mirror Ben?);
-the empire/FO is lead by a hooded darkside user;
-they have to destroy the DS/SKB, destroying its weak spot;
-but they first have to shut down its shield generator;
-one of the main charcters is captured AND interrogated EXACTLY in the same base they were to destroy (don’t tell me J.J. wanted to mirror Rey’s journey to Leia’s, again for what reason? 😄 );
-the old man is killed by the main villain (again, why Han has to mirror Ben?);

• Markdown etc… *

Unlike TFA’s those are not plot points, mostly references, though.

Jango Fett?

Right, he’s in AOTC in place for Boba, but besides the armor, their characters and story arc are much different:
-one is hired to capture Solo;
-the other works for the Separatists, is hired to kill the Queen, doesn’t work alone, is father, is the “genetic template”, is chased by Obi-wan;

Heroes being separated?

Starting a romance?

Generic events, shared by many other plots written by many other authors.

Chase in an asteroid field?

The one in AOTC? Besides the fact they’re in an asteroid field, the scene plays completely different than in TESB.

Hand cut off by lightsaber and replaced with robotic hand?

Climax is a space battle in which both Luke and Anakin blow up a spherical thingy to save the day

Reference to Luke’s journey, the reason the PT itself exists: to show us how Anakin and Luke were alike, yet different. We already knew he had a robotic hand since ROTJ (which was shown exactly for the same reason), so he kind of had to tell us how it did happen 😄

Palpatines apprentice offering the hero to unite against Palps?

A Jedi finds a Force Sensitive on a desert planet and takes him off world to train in the ways of the Force

Other references to Luke’s journey.

Futuristic city that is not build on solid ground?

This Jedi is then killed later in the film by a Sith Lord in front of our hero/s

Award ceremony at the end (not really a plot point but an overt parallel nonetheless)

Someone sliced in half by a lightsaber

As I said, minor visual references.

Queen/Princess is held captive.

Yeah maybe. Luckily it plays completely differently from ANH/TFA.

Local primitive alien species, which at first isn’t very friendly, helps saving the day in the end.

Right. I wonder if Lucas was trying to “get it right” this time 😄

Fast and deadly race with small vehicles.

No way, they are completely different scenes, you’re trying too hard now :\

Lord Haseo said:

DominicCobb said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if a Lucas made Episode VII was just as much a SW “rip-off” as TFA. TPM already kind of was.

AOTC also had quite of a bit of ESB in it.

I don’t remember rehashed plot points bisides the rebels/people of Naboo attacking the Death Star/droid control ship. There are also a few OT shots redone (like redlettermedia pointed out), but they’re minor references, never “in the face” stuff.

Same with the Italian dub, but they also use a few foreign words (like “big”, “esto”, “ja”, …).

Dek Rollins said:

JediExile said:

Enjoy

“Wonderful, wonderful!”

There is no actual proof, but it could be interesting if it turns out true. I liked Republic Commando, it was like Brothers in Arms in space.

TV’s Frink said:

THIS IS BECOMING MORE ANNOYING THAN A HUMAN THAT THINKS HES A COMPUTER

“Are you an engine?”

“Apprentice of the Force” wasn’t that bad either, but it’s noteworthy only after applying my own patch :p

DuracellEnergizer said:

That should be canonized. Make the PT/SE-verse a computer simulation created by less-than-advanced aliens.

I want to believe: I knew Lucas was actually an alien, this explains everything from Jar-jar slowly taking on the Senate, to the alien in Indy 4!

HansiG said:

HP. Lovecraft said:

The phantom menace game is my favorite one. No kidding it is a perfect blend of action and puzzles.

I especially love when you are running and suddenly you fall through the solid floor and fall into infinite void or graphical glitches.

Really? What version did you play? I recently replayed it all on PC and I never met bugs nor glitches (except for the fog missing, but I fixed it by using dgVoodoo to emulate an older video card).

HP. Lovecraft said:

The phantom menace game is my favorite one. No kidding it is a perfect blend of action and puzzles.

^ This! I’ve fond memories of being able to explore Theed and Tatooine, talking (messing) with their people while advancing the plot. It wasn’t the best videogame of its generation, but I think it was very refreshing, especially for its sandbox gameplay.

suspiciouscoffee said:

And Jar Jar can be killed by firing squad! What’s not to love?!

You could also kill Jabba, but then the game would’ve forced you to die by spawning immortal guards, trap doors and finally assassinating Padmè 😄

Anchorhead said:

[…] It always comes across to me as Lucas thinking he’s really shown how deep he is. It’s ham-fisted.

I don’t think Lucas was trying to sound deep, all of his dialogues in the PT sound “solemn” (or sometimes cheesy) like that one, it’s just part of his style.

DuracellEnergizer said:

The scene in a nutshell: “Hey, look at how gullible the Senate is to automatically fall for Palpatine’s bullshit, even though he’s provided no evidence to back-up the claims he’s making against the Jedi!” It really drives home how stupid everyone who isn’t Palpatine is in these movies, how none of them can put 2 and 2 together even when the signs are blatantly there in garish neon colours.

The Senate is not really falling for Palpatine’s speech, it’s just colluded with him. The whole scene may seem stupid to some, but I think it should look very familiar to most of us in this forum, because it’s basically what we see every day in our parliaments: Lucas was basically telling us the PT is actually set in our world and that this is the way it could turn out one day.

I think I changed my mind: since I haven’t seen it in a while, first I’m going to watch ROTS :p
Unfortunately, my parents don’t understand English, so we can’t watch a fanedit: we’ll have to watch the original version, with Grievous acting like a fool and his Muppet Emperor like some kind of Disney villain 😄
But otherwise, I think it’s going to be worth it, because of its plot and dramatic scenes, improved by the Italian dub which is very good, making its dialogues and characters believable (which is probably true for every other ROTS’s dub).

Also, I’m going to buy a few more super discounted Star Wars titles:
-Rogue Squadron 3D;
-the X-wing series;
-Rebel Assault I + II (actually, I had the second one for Playstation back in the days, but not the first one).

P.S.: Is it “Italian dub” or “Italian dubbing”? “ROTS’s dub(bing)” or “ROTS dub(bing)”?

I never celebrated a Star Wars Day before, but I guess today I could at least watch TESB for the 1952805730th time (it never gets old, after all 😄 )

Probably this guy:

(jk!)

Memorable line: “Ecco perchè hai fallito…” (That is why you fail.)
Funny line: “Mangia, mangia, è caldo! Roba buona, eh? Roba buona!” (“Eat, eat. Hot. Good food, hmm?”)
Moving line (considering the context): "Tu eri il prescelto! Era scritto che distruggesti i Sith, non che ti unissi a loro! Dovevi portare equilibrio nella Forza, non lasciarla nelle tenebre! (…) Eri mio fratello Anakin! Ti volevo bene…! (You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness. (…) You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.)

But really, there are so many good lines I could fill up an entire thread 😄

100 years!? Are you saying we should discuss this when in the afterlife!? (jk 😄 )

moviefreakedmind said:

Why would anyone create over five sock accounts to a website in which every member hates him?

“He’s a sock-machine now of the man, twisted and ewok.” (jk 😄 )
I don’t hate him, but of course he must observe the rules too.

FanFiltration said:

HA! “Luke Is All By Himself”

https://www.facebook.com/GettingDUM/videos/1081336231918454/

At least he brought his (OLD!) stereo with him 😄

Ryan McAvoy said:

Wesley Crusher “Mansplains” the women in Star Wars “issue”…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHckKckhBYc

😄 That teaches them! But really, I think the problem with RO’s protagonist is that strong-female-protagonist-action-girls’ve become just another overused film trope by now, not so original (same goes for their male version).

Glad you liked it! You should see that other Urusei Yatsura video I posted, it’s even more random 😄