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John Doom

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17-Apr-2015
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1-Nov-2017
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737

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Post
#949198
Topic
Episode II is just as extraneous to the plot of Star Wars as Episode I.
Time

HansiG said:

I don’t understand why you people skip these movies.

If you don’t want to watch bad movies, just don’t watch the prequels at all.

Either watch everything or screw PT entirely. The entire PT is not important to the story of OT.

Keep it all or skip it all.

Aside for the obvious known problems, TPM and AOTC have too many things I just can’t stand to watch… ROTS is not flawless at all, but even if people could disagree with me, I think it really is the best PT movie, and it’s worth watching for its dramatic plot and characters, not to mention that the Italian dub makes all the acting actually believable (this is probably true for every other dub as well). It’s a worth addition to the OT, in my eyes.

Post
#949194
Topic
An inclusive universe and a new generation of fans.
Time

To me, movies can be as inclusive as the studios want, as long as they’re interesting, fit in their genre and the directors are free to express their personal vision. Generally, choosing the characters also depends on the movie’s genre and its main audiance (would they actually do a plain Romance film for male to be more inclusive?).
Star Wars has always tried to be “family-friendly”, so Rey being the main protagonist shouldn’t be an issue. Take Blade Runner, though, clearly inspired by classic noir hard-boiled stories, and it just wouldn’t be the same movie if, for example, Deckard weren’t male, if Rachael weren’t Deckard’s damsell in distress, or if he didn’t kill Zhora and Priss with no mercy: nowdays, Scott would’ve probably been accused of being misogynist, and maybe WB would’ve deemed his movie too risky to be screened or even produced!
So being inclusive is not necessarily better for movies.

Post
#949189
Topic
Episode II is just as extraneous to the plot of Star Wars as Episode I.
Time

I think the creation of the clone army and the beginning of the Clone Wars are important (unless the PT doesn’t count in your canon). That said, it could probably be skipped for the Machete Order, definitely fixing Anakin’s relationship with Padmè, Jango being the “genetic template” and Jar-jar’s speech in the Senate.
Honestly, I myself skip both TPM and AOTC if I can’t rely on fanedits (for example when I watch the Star Wars films with my parents, who don’t understand English, so we have to use the original Italian versions).

Post
#943693
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Scott109 said:

I am fine with the ST mirroring the OT. However, I hated the idea of a third Death Star. Vader said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force, and the first two Death Stars enabled the Empire’s destruction. Thus, it is illogical for the First Order to build another Death Star.

Additionally, The Force Awakens should not have ever used Kylo Ren as a vehicle for comic relief. His temper tantrums with his lightsaber diminished his stature as a villain. Kylo Ren should have defeated Rey in the lightsaber duel. Rey should have barely survived. The hero should always lose to the villain during their first encounter with one another.

Here is a video detailing more of the film’s flaws:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6_zvQQ5P8w

SO YOU ARE SAYING LUCAS WOULD HAVE DONE ALL THIS QUESTION MARK

OR PERHAPS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD

THE PREQUEL FILM LOVER THREAD MAYBE QUESTION MARK

😄 On this forum, recognizing TFA has flaws necessarily means being a PT lover, for some reason.

Post
#943335
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

HansiG said:

The major difference between the prequels ripping off OT and TFA ripping off OT is that TFA was a good movie.

Tyrphanax said:

Who even cares, it was a good movie.

Dialogues and acting were indeed better than in the PT, absolutely no doubt about it.

TV’s Frink said:

John Doom said:

Whatever, you’re both completely ignoring my point here and even contradicting yourself

BOTH WHO QUESTION MARK

I’m sorry, did I make a grammar mistake?

Post
#943304
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

There are plenty of stories that predate STAR WARS that have a main character captured and then interrogated/tortured by the main bad guy in his lair.

True, but no other story besides TFA and ANH itself shares the same settings and plot points here.
You said Anakin loosing his hand mirrors the OT, but this plot point itself is not entire new as well. Was it borrowed? Yep, and you said it yourself. So if you say this is borrowing, than Rey/Leia’s capture is borrowing as well.

Also lets not forget that Leia was interrogated about the location of the Rebel base whereas Rey and Poe were interrogated about the map to Skywalker.

They were both interrogated on the hidden data that drove the main plot, it’s the same plot point. Is it actually slightly different? Yes, and so it was for example Anakin’s defeat in AOTC from Luke’s defeat in TESB, but nevertheless it borrowed from a previous SW movie.

Post
#943300
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
Poe giving the data to bb8 and being captured, as well as Rey being brought to SKB and being interrogated while the other main characters get into the prison to save her, they both clearly borrow from Leia in ANH, that was my point. Their scenes (visual references aside) play differently, yet share the same plot points, so it’s still “borrowing” as J.J. said.

Well unless SW was the first movie to have a character be captured only to be rescued by the other characters I wouldn’t really call it mirroring at all 😄

It’s a very basic plot point that existed long before STAR WARS even came out. And not only in film but in book as well.

Right, lots of movies have a main character taken by a dark jedi to the stormtroopers’ space station (capable of destroying entire worlds), interrogated by the main villain on the data they’re looking for (which are hidden inside her own droid) : /
If these plot points are not borrowed from earlier SW films (ANH in particular here), then neither are those you pointed out in the PT (like Luke/Anakin fighting Vader/Dooku and loosing his hand), or is it? And yet, they were “borrowed”.

Post
#943183
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

I agree Anakin’s character should’ve been written better, especially in AOTC. He didn’t have to be like Luke, and him being conflicted and loosing his control was kind of necessary to explain why he did turn evil in the end, but as a more compelling good character, he could’ve been a definitely better main character and his mirroring would’ve worked better as well.

Post
#943166
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
I see what he means. It makes sense for the audiance, but otherwise there’s no in-universe explaination (which I dislike).

There wasn’t any in the PT. As in it being specifically stated that history is bound to repeat itself.

What I mean is I think in the big picture there’s artistically a lot of difference between making a point on two different main characters (revealing why in-universe Vader had a robotic hand like Luke in ROTJ, why they’re supposed to be alike) by only mirroring Luke’s major plot points and loosely (is trained to become a jedi, destroys a space ship, loses his hand, confronts Palpatine), and mirroring (actually “borrowing”, as J.J. said) to make the movie more familiar to the audiance. To me it just doesn’t work in the big picture, it’s a decision that lacks any sort of artistic vision, doesn’t add anything to the plot or the characters, it feels like borrowing just for the sake of it.

I wouldn’t say 50/50 in Rey’s case but I could say that for Poe. The only thing the two have in common is that they both resist the torture/interrogation of our main baddie. But how they were captured, when they were captured and interrogated, what they were interrogated for and how they escaped were totally different.

Poe giving the data to bb8 and being captured, as well as Rey being brought to SKB and being interrogated while the other main characters get into the prison to save her, they both clearly borrow from Leia in ANH, that was my point. Their scenes (visual references aside) play differently, yet share the same plot points, so it’s still “borrowing” as J.J. said.

Post
#943038
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

[‘The Force Awakens’] was a bridge and a kind of reminder; the audience needed to be reminded what ‘Star Wars’ is, but it needed to be established with something familiar, with a sense of where we are going to new lands, which is very much what 8 and 9 do. The weird thing about that movie is that it had been so long since the last one. Obviously the prequels had existed in between and we wanted to, sort of, reclaim the story. So we very consciously — and I know it is derided for this — we very consciously tried to borrow familiar beats so the rest of the movie could hang on something that we knew was ‘Star Wars.’ - JJ Abrams

So take that quote however you deem necessary.

I see what he means. It makes sense for the audiance, but otherwise there’s no in-universe explaination (which I dislike). It all comes down to whether one accepts this mirroring for what it is. I don’t find his reclaiming the story a solid reason for mirroring in TFA’s plot (especially so heavily) and I strongly hope they’re really going to stop doing this for the next movies (it’s a “deal breaker” for me), but I understand his decision and who agrees with it.

If anything Poe’s story is more similar to Rey’s. Poe is the one who puts the information in a droid. Poe is the one who get’s captured shortly there after. Poe is also interrogated but difference is that he gave in to Kylo’s mind probing. And Poe is the one is is broken out of captivity. Also unlike Leia Rey is actually interrogated about the mcguffin.

😄 50/50 then, I guess. If like J.J. said TFA’s mirroring are scene related rather than character related (like the PT), then I guess it doesn’t need to work specifically to a certain character, so I think it makes sense.

Post
#942983
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

You’re still ignoring the fact that the setting makes the actions of the people in play out very differently. If the Falcon had been doing any maneuvers and shit you’d be right. The stuff that actually happens in the scenes are far from similar. Answer these questions:

Did the Chewie almost crash the Falcon before the chase began?
Did the Falcon bob and weave among other maneuvers to escape and/or destroy the TIEs?
Did Chewie fly into any structures to avoid a TIE Fighter?
Did one of the canon/s get shot?
Did the last TIE Fighter get destroyed due to the pilot maneuvering The Falcon in such a position so that the canon (while stuck) can get a perfect shot?

And that’s why I said the difference lies mostly in being on the ground. Like you pointed out, there’s also the gun jamming, but otherwise you get lots of visual references and a rehashed plot point: the main characters are escaping with the Falcon while chased by two TIEs. It’s still a remake, but thankfully it’s not exactly the same scene, but if you ask me why I prefer the PT when it comes down to shared references, it’s because in the PT there’s not a single scene that has so many “references”, it always feels more fresh. Again, in comparison the astreoid chase in AOTC only shares the setting (which actually looks very different), but not only plays completely differently, its plot point is completely different too, not even similar.

The PT has a solid reason to make Anakin’s journey mirror Luke’s

Because Lucas. That’s what this is all about when we get down to it. People are fine when Lucas takes stuff from Flash Gordan, Akira Kurosawa films (both in SW and TPM), Dam Busters etc. and even when he does it to himself. It’s just written off as paying homage and in the PT’s case…poetry but when JJ does it it’s considering ripping off.

Like Lucas, if J.J. wants to make “poetry”, he also has to give us a solid and coherent reason, or it really is just ripping off.

but can you tell me what character mirrors who in the OT and for what reason?

Qui-Gon […]

I meant in TFA, maybe I wasn’t clear enough, sorry 😄

Similitarities with who or what and why?

To Luke I guess and the reason being the whole history repeating itself thing. They seem to be mirroring Rey’s journey less than Luke’s so I hope they go in a completely different direction from here on out.

Are you sure, though? See how she also mirrors with Leia.

It all comes down to the reason one would mirror two characters or situations.

I disagree. In terms of the conversation I think the things that happen in the scenes matter more than the intent or even the outcome of such scenes.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean.

So Rey was aboard a ship with the stolen SKB plans and was stunned by a Storm Trooper after putting it in a droid and then is interrogated with a mind probe droid as to the location of The Resistance base and then is rescued by one of our main characters masquerading as a Storm Trooper? I guess I need to watch the film again…

It’s a mirrored plot point, there’s no reason to deny it. If you think it isn’t, considering Anakin meeting Qui-gon on Tatooine mirrors Luke’s meeting with Ben, tell me when did Luke have to work for Watto, play in a podrace to win his freedom, promise her mother he’ll be back to free her too. Same with Anakin destroying the droid control ship: when did Luke join the attack disobeying his master? Do you remember when Luke falls in love with Leia and later brings her to Naboo to protect her and marries her? What about Luke fighting side-by-side with Ben while Vader tried to escape? :\

Post
#942959
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

Also why are we comparing Leia with Rey? Rey is our main character and Luke was never captured by force (remember that the whole thing at Jabba’s Palace was all part of his plan) in the OT. If anything we should be comparing those too. And them both being female has nothing to do with anything so don’t go there.

It’s not because they’re both female, it’s because Rey being captured and interrogated on the SKB heavily “mirrors” Leia’s experience in ANH. As for why it mirrors, I’d like to ask J.J. this myself 😄

Post
#942955
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
Besides the fact it plays on the planet, it has so many references you could say it’s almost a 1:1 shot-by-shot remake of the Falcon’s escape from the DS (I think someone also posted a gif depicting this).

No you can’t. You can’t tell me that Han and Luke shooting at TIE Fighters while the Falcon was pretty much flying without movement is the same as the chase scene in TFA where Rey is doing maneuvers to evade the TIEs even to the point of setting up that circus shot at the end. Also having it be in a desert and inside of a Star Destroyer adds a completely different dynamic to the chase whereas in SW where it’s just in space.

😄 Exactly what I said: the difference lies in the fact they’re still on the planet, so you have Rey doing maneuvers to the avade the TIEs. Compared to what was done in the PT (in AOTC/TESB’s asteroid chase sequence, for example, where only the setting was shared, but what happend was different) there are so many visual references 75% of the scene plays the same as in ANH, it’s a fact.

Also the gif is just the movement of Han and Finn in the seat. Which is really the only thing you can accurately compare.

There are much more references, watch it here. It’s a clear remake, minus the fact they’re on the planet.

Right, but for Luke and Anakin journeys to mirror the way I said, it necessarily had to.

There’s other ways he could have lost his hand. But then again why is mirroring right in the PT but is bad in the ST?

The PT has a solid reason to make Anakin’s journey mirror Luke’s, but can you tell me what character mirrors who in the OT and for what reason?

TFA had no reason to make Rey’s journey to Luke’s, though, so it’s fine.

Neither did Anakin’s. They could have made it so there were similarities here and there but just like TFA they went overboard with it. In this regard even moreso.

I disagree.

But Rey’s journey isn’t over yet so other similarities may arise.

Similitarities with who or what and why?

If we’re comparing movie to movie it’s definitely an overt mirroring. Certainly more overt than Han’s death.

It all comes down to the reason one would mirror two characters or situations.

Post
#942940
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Frank your Majesty said:

And the PT taking place right on Tatooine is acceptable because it mirrors Luke’s journey? Why can’t TFA mirror Luke’s journey?

Frank your Majesty said:

The prequels didn’t have any reason to exactly mirror Luke’s journey, either.

Anakin’s journey mirroring Luke’s is made clear since TPM, so it makes sense that Qui-gon finds Anakin on Tatooine (and since Anakin was Luke’s father, it still makes sense he was living on Tatooine too). The reason is so we can finally compare Luke’s journey to Anakin’s, to see why they were alike yet different.
Why would TFA mirror Luke’s journey, though? I can’t find an answer, since there are lots of references in TFA, but mirroring is done for very different characters throughout the movie, so there’s no consistence to begin with.

To this, there are WAY more rehashed plot points, and this time for no actual reason at all:
-a droid carries important data;
-the one who got the data, later gets captured (were they trying to compare Poes’s journey to Leia’s? For what reason? 😄 )
-the droid gets on a desert planet that looks almost exactly like Tatooine;
-the main protagonists have to escape this planet while chased by the empire/FO;

Luke’s journey etc.

Mirrored for who and for what reason?

-the Falcon is caught in a tractor beam;

Completely different situation.

That’s true, it’s more like a visual reference.

-the old man examines the droid’s data (for what reason Han has to mirror Ben?);
[…] -the old man is killed by the main villain (again, why Han has to mirror Ben?);

Han’s now a father, so making him a father figure to Rey establishes this character trait.

Was Obi-wan like a father to Luke? He was an acquaintance and him mentor. Han is not Rey’s mentor (in fact, she knows how to repair the Falcon better than him 😄 ). Palpatine was also a father figure to Anakin, but they didn’t have him to kill him in the PT to enstablish his role 😄

-the empire/FO is lead by a hooded darkside user;

By this point, that’s pretty much a prerequisite for Star Wars. Had it been otherwise, people would have bitched about it, too.

I also saw lots of people bitching because they didn’t get a military commander instead. Snoke didn’t have to look so much like Palpatine either, though.

-one of the main charcters is captured AND interrogated EXACTLY in the same base they were to destroy (don’t tell me J.J. wanted to mirror Rey’s journey to Leia’s, again for what reason? 😄 );

Why not?

What would they accomplish making Rey mirror with Leia? Are they somehow alike? Do they fill the same role? Is Rey a Republic leader?

Post
#942907
Topic
If George Had Made The Sequel Trilogy...
Time

Lord Haseo said:

Funny thing is when I tell someone that Rey and Finn stealing the Millennium Falcon and flying through the desert and even inside a crashed Star Destroyer is different from how the escape from Tatooine played out in STAR WARS they don’t want to hear that shit.
We can apply your post to a great many things in TFA.

Besides the fact it plays on the planet, it has so many references you could say it’s almost a 1:1 shot-by-shot remake of the Falcon’s escape from the DS (I think someone also posted a gif depicting this).

Reference to Luke’s journey, the reason the PT itself exists: to show us how Anakin and Luke were alike, yet different. We already knew he had a robotic hand since ROTJ (which was shown exactly for the same reason), so he kind of had to tell us how it did happen 😄

That’s true but it didn’t necessarily have to happen by the hands of a Sith Lord in the second movie to which our hero defeats him in the third one in front of Palpatine.

Right, but for Luke and Anakin journeys to mirror the way I said, it necessarily had to.

A Jedi finds a Force Sensitive on a desert planet and takes him off world to train in the ways of the Force

Other references to Luke’s journey.

It’s still less original than what happens in TFA regarding Rey being noticed as a Force Sensitive.

TFA had no reason to make Rey’s journey to Luke’s, though, so it’s fine.

This Jedi is then killed later in the film by a Sith Lord in front of our hero/s

Award ceremony at the end (not really a plot point but an overt parallel nonetheless)

No, a character death is an actual plot point. The way in which he dies would be a visual reference. Also I even said the Award Ceremony wasn’t a plot point so it’s a bit redundant to point that out.

Except for the “NOOO” 😄 visual reference, it didn’t affect the plot the same way, so I’m not sure it’s actually rehashed: Luke is still an apprentice and now without a master, Obi-wan is already a Jedi Knight and has no need for more training (actually, he is the one who has to train now).

EDIT: Sorry, I have to go to dinner now, but I’ll come back later to reply you.