John Doom

joefavs said:

I have no problem believing Anakin found the parts from a broken down protocol droid lying around Watto’s digs and put it back together. I don’t think we were ever meant to think he machined the parts himself or anything like that.

Well, I’m fine with Anakin being able to assemble a droid. It’s the fact that C3PO and Anakin/Vader are somehow “relatives”, that they know each other. It always bothered me to no end since I was a kid 😄

joefavs said:
[…] C-3PO’s barrage of one-liners spoken to no one […]

Didn’t he speak like that on Bespin too, when he felt the presence of another R2 unit, though?

Would you say it’s better the droid factory or Anakin building C3PO and destroying a fully functional battleship as a kid?

Bingowings said:

This forum doesn’t do penis jokes, It’s bigger than that.

Right, it just wouldn’t fit in a place like this.

How did they make sure no reflex on the glass would get into the frame?

TV’s Frink said:

I honestly think you have to watch them from start to end as movies to truly understand how much of a failure they are.

You know, now that I think about it, there’s something I didn’t take into consideration: that the acting is of course different in the Italian versions (the ones I watched), because they were dubbed. As far as I understand, one of the main things the PT did wrong was the acting, but this problem is completely nonexistent in our versions because our dubbing was directed by professionals, at the point that the infamous “sand” line has been slightly changed and improved in Italian, making it kind of a beautiful and romantic thing to say. So maybe that’s why I consider the PT slightly better than you do.

What about FALCON KICK, then? 😄

A few months ago, while I was attempting at improving their editing for the Nth time, just to realize it would take completely new dialogues and scenes to satisfy me 😄

TV’s Frink said:

Then perhaps I didn’t understand what you were trying to get at there.

… and then, I also said…

John Doom said:
With that said, it’s not like I think the PT is better than TFA: they’re all terribly flawed one way or another, with TFA not being an exception.

Those aren’t the entirety of what I said, you ignored the stuff about Rey being in a single non-sexualized outfit and being sweaty, Finn being a rogue stormtrooper, etc. And have we had a movie recently with both? Did you see any of the online nonsense about a black stormtrooper?

😄 I thought we were talking about “risky decisions”. Is wearing a single non-sexualized outfit or being a rogue considered risky, now?
I seriously haven’t heard of people actually being against the concept of a black stormtrooper, neither on this site (as far as I remember), nor on guerrestellari.net, Italian Star Wars site. Considering the studios probably pushed for this idea to “widen the demographic”, I doubt they thought it was actually risky.

Absolutely false. I’ve seen plenty of complaints about this.

All right, it’s fine.

Did Vader use the force to torture and extract information? Did Vader freeze someone entirely?

To torture of course not (except maybe on Tentative IV), but it’s not like he used a new kind of “Force Power”. Freezing someone it’s like freezing bolts, remake of older concepts in the OT but “more kick-ass” with more special effects.

Yes, that’s still crazy talk. If you said “I didn’t enjoy TFA” or even “I hated it” that’s fair. Saying it’s equal to the PT is ignoring how bad the PT truly is.

Can we talk about this on just one thread? I don’t want to split myself in two 😄

TV’s Frink said:

John Doom said:

Roughly this:
1 TESB
2 ANH
3 ROTJ
4 ROTS
5-7 TPM, AOTC and TFA (in release order)

Lunacy.

When was the last time you actually watched the PT? I watched them all over the past few weeks, including ROTS last night. We watched L8wrtr’s versions, so the worst of them is removed…and they’re still not good movies. I don’t have a problem if you didn’t like TFA, but equating them with the PT makes me wonder how well you remember the PT.

I assure you I highly dislike the PT, as both movies and part of the SW canon, but there are equally pros and cons in both the PT and TFA: I consider all of them mediocre, but each one of them for very different reasons.

TV’s Frink said:
He wanted to save Rey. He even lied to the Resistance, claiming knowledge of how to take the Base out, so they’d let him tag along. Which led to him admitting to Han he didn’t know what to do, which led to him suggesting “using the Force” to do it, which led to Han’s “That’s not how the Force works!” A great exchange.

Right, I guess that was the point. As I said, I honestly don’t remember that scene, it didn’t impress me much, I guess 😄

That’s fine but there’s been plenty of discussion in this thread of how and why her progression makes plenty of sense, you should read back through it.

Don’t worry, I assure you I read every single post in this thread before my last post, but I still don’t agree with what has been said on these subjects.

I’ve pointed out plenty of new things this movie introduced and risks it took. I completely disagree that nothing new was done here.

I never said that nothing new was done, just that the PT did more than TFA did. Anyway, I read your opininons on that, and:
-having a “strong female lead” (as it’s said nowdays) and a “black second lead” is not considered a risk anymore at all, it’s actually convinient in a way, because it is supposed to “widen the demographic” (or at least that’s what the studios think);
-I agree that Han getting killed might’ve been risky, but I actually haven’t heard anyone saying they didn’t like the movie because of this;
-I assure you no one bothered with Luke not saying a thing. I think that scene could’ve been handled better, but that’s my opinion;
-Ren is not complex at all, not in this movie. I’m fine with him being flawed compared to Vader, that’s an interesting concept, but it wasn’t actually put in good use in the movie;
-“The force used in new and interesting ways” what!? 😄 If you mean Ren freezing laser bolts, it’s just what Vader did in TESB, just a lot less subtle and “more kick-ass”.

Rating the PT + TFA in order of release, as you did in the rankings thread, is still crazy talk.

😄 I think I’ve been misunderstood here (I guess I’ll have to edit my post in the other thread…) What I meant is not something like “TPM > AOTC > TFA”, but more like “TPM = AOTC = TFA”. As I said, I don’t think TFA is like the PT, but that when considering the pros and cons, they’re more or less at the same level. But fine, it’s “crazy talk” (“from a certain point of view” 😄 )

Roughly this:
1 TESB
2 ANH
3 ROTJ
4 ROTS
5-7 TPM, AOTC and TFA (in release order)

I’m back to share a few more thoughts on the movie!

About the main characters, I think they lack strong developments:
-Finn: we know from the beginning that he wants to leave the FO. He soon befriends a member of the resistence and then, until the 3rd part of the movie, does his best to escape the FO. After this, I honestly don’t remember why he decided to take part of the attack to the Starkiller Base. I guess they wanted him to finally face the FO, but a few more lines about his thoughts might’ve helped fleshing out his character more than all those explosions in the final battle.
-Rey: she is mostly fleshed out, with even a few insights on her past. Her knowledge of the Force, on the other hand, is completely out of control: she begins with having no idea of what the Force is, to using mind tricks, to moving objects and suddenly she’s able to take on a trained dark Jedi. Her supposedly being the one “awakening” is no excuse for this, because no one questions her skills at all in the movie, so to me they definitely feel like deus-ex-machinas with no character progression in the Force.
-Kylo Ren: in the beginning he seems to be a strong Force-user, in the end he’s just a guy with a lightsaber being defeated. Why is this, what happened in the middle? His decision to kill his father is a wasted opportunity, as it should’ve had a greater inpact on his development (also possibly moving the scene earlier in the movie), making him either regret his decision or making him more determined in his actions.

On the PT vs TFA comparison, I think that while the PT is definitely technically flawed, it still followed less the OT’s structure than TFA, while also at least trying to add a few new concepts (with some not being necessarily bad ideas in the SW universe). Also, as Jay said, some bits of the PT indeed feel more interesting, and I say more moving too, than anything happening in TFA, especially in ROTS:
I’d take any time Anakin’s “death” over Han’s death, Anakin’s inner conflict over Ren’s one, even “Order 66” over the destruction of that Republic’s planet in TFA (what’s its name?).
With that said, it’s not like I think the PT is better than TFA: they’re all terribly flawed one way or another, with TFA not being an exception.

What’s with the “Star Wars” defense program and Marcia S. Smith? 😄

😄 It may be too late to go back, now: https://youtu.be/asvKQOJZXcs?t=44
(I hope we won’t get to see anything like this in the movies).

They’ll just keep staring at each other. Stares: “And that’s all it was for 90 minutes. It won eight Oscars that year, including best screenplay.”

How comes it reminds me of this? 😄

btw, what’s with /the site’s/ countdown being so negative about TFA? I mean, it’s almost like he’d want things to go backwards, back to the OT.

TavorX said:

John Doom said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

Who is Rey?

I don’t know. Sounds like some guy’s name?

[EVA Rei pic]

Fun fact, he named that character after this Sailor Moon character:

Now, if true, that would be unexpected 😄

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

Who is Rey?

I don’t know. Sounds like some guy’s name?

Yeah… It doesn’t matter if he’ll be a better villain in Ep.VIII, I still feel there’s no actual villain in TFA, so I can’t say it’s a good movie to me, it doesn’t have what I like to see in a movie.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
Let’s say he’s flawed for the sake of the next movies, I’m ok with it. But the problem is still the same: there’s no actual threat I felt in TFA. […]

If you felt he wasn’t a threat then the film makers did their job

Good for them. I guess it’s just not my kind of movie, then: I like movies with adventure and mystery, but different kind of tension and drama, it’s subjective.

Leia is afraid of him since the first scene, just look at her eyes. The next time we see him, is when he fights Obi-wan and literally kills him. In the trench run, he kills Luke’s comrades one-by-one, and this builds more and more the tension and the fear that Luke might be his next victim. So, yeah, I’m consistent: I felt he was an actual constant threat in ANH.

SilverWook said:

John Doom said:

Alderaan said:
[…] It was implied in TFA that he was a badass, I mean he stopped blaster bolts in mid air and telekinetically froze people and threw them through the air. […]

You know, if you think about it, he wasn’t that badass, considering Poe had no problem making fun of him since the very first scene 😄

Good guys always mock the bad guys. Or do you really think Tarkin smelled and kept Vader on a leash? 😉

“Always” not sure (honestly, I can’t remember other fitting examples in the OT), but you’re right about Tarkin 😄
Doesn’t help that’s Ren’s first scene. Again, consider that’s not Vader’s case in ANH, hell in the whole OT. These guys are supposed to be the main villains, after all 😄

Alderaan said:
[…] It was implied in TFA that he was a badass, I mean he stopped blaster bolts in mid air and telekinetically froze people and threw them through the air. […]

You know, if you think about it, he wasn’t that badass, considering Poe had no problem making fun of him since the very first scene 😄

Yoda Is Your Father said:

John Doom said:

consequence of a not-so-good writing, to me.

Lawrence Kasdan… what a hack…

Kasdan is an artist, but brainstorming at Lucasfilm must’ve not gone very well, if the best villain they decided to make him write was Ren. No villain, not a good movie, to me.

Lord Haseo said:
I don’t think you understand what the character of Kylo Ren is supposed to be . Kylo Ren is not supposed to be a good villain yet. He is a mentally unstable kid who masquerades as someone who has power like Vader but has yet to be fully trained.

Also not so good writing has nothing to do with it. The writer’s made him a would be Darksider because part of his arc will be him becoming exponentially stronger in the sequels.

Let’s say he’s flawed for the sake of the next movies, I’m ok with it. But the problem is still the same: there’s no actual threat I felt in TFA.

btw, happy New Year from Italy!

Lord Haseo said:

TV’s Frink said:
I find it funny how people will complain that the film didn’t do anything different, and then go on to complain about the things that JJ did that were actually different.

This exactly summarizes my frustration with a sizable percentage of our fandom. If it isn’t that people are nitpicking about things that don’t pertain to the film in it’s totality.

Alderaan said:
He got weaker in the dark side as the film went along though. That’s the problem some people have with this character. It would have been so easy to fix too. He should have just wasted Finn, then play-fought Rey, only allowing her to live because he’s attracted to her, or he wants to train her or something. Then she taps into the force and fights him off for just a moment, then deus-ex-machina, the ground opens up and she escapes. Kylo would still be a threatening obstacle heading into the next film, and his arc wouldn’t have blown up.

“Yes, yes! To Alderaan you listen. The Starkiller Base. Remember Ren’s failure at the Starkiller Base!”. Ren is a problem, not TFA not being enought like ANH.
As far as I know, every movie has its villain, even if it’s not an actual character (unless it’s a documentary, maybe 😄 ). I’m not against Ren not being like Vader, but that there’s barely any threat in TFA: it’s not about making TFA like ANH, it’s just that he’s a bad villain, consequence of a not-so-good writing, to me.