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Jay

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Join date
22-Feb-2003
Last activity
22-Jun-2018
Posts
3876

Post History

Post
#1217041
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

The mods and I agreed that it was best to move the politics/diversity discussion to its own thread since it can definitely sustain a thread of its own at this point:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Culture-politics-and-diversity-in-Star-Wars/id/61333

Please let me know if there are any posts I missed in this thread that should be moved to the new thread.

Post
#1216915
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

dahmage said:

Jay said:

dahmage said:

So Jay your position is that the people offended by it have twisted it and not the people using it?

I completely disagree but thanks for making a different decision than you did before (there’s no way I can find that post right now but I am sure you made a statement before that people should stop using it)

I know I made a post in the TLJ review thread about ending the Mary Sue/misogyny discussion because it got toxic, but I don’t recall banning the term site-wide or anything. That was also at a point when I was still avoiding participation in the forum due to perceived bias, but I recently realized I enjoyed this place a lot more when I was an active participant.

If you call someone a Mary Sue because you’re sexist and don’t care whether the character meets the definition or not, that’s certainly using the term in bad faith. Labeling everyone who uses the term as a sexist is also using it in bad faith.

Is it your position that a majority of people calling Rey a Mary Sue are doing so because they’re sexist and not because they have a legitimate point? I’m sure some of them are sexist, of course.

My position is that the wide proliferation of its use specifically in regards to the Last Jedi and echoed across blogs and YouTubes is probably more sexist than it is not.

And I think it is dangerous for people to Simply repeat terms they’ve heard other people use. I’m not saying that all those people repeating it are sexist or even that the majority of them are.

But we live in a Time where people with sexist and otherwise backwards worldviews can get repeated and spread like wildfire.

I simply think if we stop using the terms of the day we can help cut down on the echoing.

I think it’s a mistake to surrender words to those who’ve perverted their meaning and co-opted their use.

I’m not seeing the majority sexist point of view on social media. I see a vocal minority saying some vile stuff, people flipping out over it because that’s what they do, and various media who are all too happy to fan the flames and paint everyone who’s dissatisfied with Star Wars with that same brush in an attempt to push the negative feedback aside.

Post
#1216890
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

dahmage said:

So Jay your position is that the people offended by it have twisted it and not the people using it?

I completely disagree but thanks for making a different decision than you did before (there’s no way I can find that post right now but I am sure you made a statement before that people should stop using it)

I know I made a post in the TLJ review thread about ending the Mary Sue/misogyny discussion because it got toxic, but I don’t recall banning the term site-wide or anything. That was also at a point when I was still avoiding participation in the forum due to perceived bias, but I recently realized I enjoyed this place a lot more when I was an active participant.

If you call someone a Mary Sue because you’re sexist and don’t care whether the character meets the definition or not, that’s certainly using the term in bad faith. Labeling everyone who uses the term as a sexist is also using it in bad faith.

Is it your position that a majority of people calling Rey a Mary Sue are doing so because they’re sexist and not because they have a legitimate point? I’m sure some of them are sexist, of course.

Post
#1216886
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

SilverWook said:

Hasn’t the meaning been twisted in recent years though? I’m sure as hell not using it in mixed company!

That’s my point exactly. The meaning hasn’t changed, but use of the term has been twisted to suit an agenda.

Person A, who has an unsavory reputation or even just an opinion you don’t like, uses a completely legitimate, benign term to defend their ideas. Person B also uses the term in another context, related or not. Disavow Person A and their ideas, while labeling the term a slur. Smear Person A for using the term, which draws an imaginary line connecting Person A to Person B because they both used it. Person B is effectively smeared for being like Person A despite no association.

As a bonus, make everyone afraid to use the new bad word in “polite” company, get them all thinking it’s only used by bad people, and attack anyone who uses the term. Especially useful when digging up old articles and tweets, because that completely harmless word you used 10 years ago is now something that can prevent you from getting a job or running for office.

Lather, rinse, repeat, until nothing means anything anymore, because we’re all hopelessly misogynist, racist, and bigoted, constantly apologizing for our offenses rather than having difficult discussions about real issues.

Post
#1216878
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

dahmage said:

Can we please go back to the stance that using the term Mary sue is not allowed? you can make any argument you want, just stop using that terrible language.

“Mary Sue” is not misogynist and is not a slur. The term was used for decades in a completely uncontroversial manner for both male and female characters until someone who likely didn’t understand what it meant decided it was sexist and we should all be offended by it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

You can debate about whether you think Rey fits the description or not, but the term has never been sexist and is in no way a slur.

Post
#1216505
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

I really wish I could post as eloquently as Dre, Dom, and Jay are right now. I’ve enjoyed reading these last few posts. I can’t really add anything that hasn’t already been said better, though.

Too bad the entire conversation is basically completely off-topic.

A thread veering off topic is suddenly a concern for you after 9 years?

It sprung from a discussion about diversity in Solo. I welcome the diversion.

Yes I make a lot of off topic comments. And most of the time they’re just a one-off joke, not a six page diversion that may have started tangential to the topic but ended up nowhere near it.

But it’s your topic and it’s your forum, so since you’re cool with the inconsistency being displayed, cool. Of course the real solution would be to start a new topic and get this thread back to the actual movie it’s supposedly about, but what do I know?

JEDIT: I already PM’d a moderator after posting my initial complaint, so I had considered the matter closed.

Your one-off jokes often inspire pages of irrelevant posts that read more like a chat room than a discussion forum, which you continue to fuel with further one-offs, resulting in utter derailment of the thread and little discussion of any real value. Our tangential discussion in this thread about diversity, which was inspired by Solo itself, ended up being a meaningful exchange — so much so that some participants felt the need to comment on how good of a discussion it’s been. Your inability to tell the difference between a worthwhile tangent and an unfortunate derailment is the real problem.

Yes, it is my topic, and as the rules state, the OP sets the tone of the discussion. I don’t mind when topics go off in a different direction when that direction is meaningful and interesting, and I don’t moderate off topic posts of that nature in other threads unless the thread author requests it or there are complaints from multiple members, in which case I’d still defer to the OP regardless of others’ concerns.

The mods don’t share a single hive mind. Messaging one of us doesn’t broadcast your message to everyone. I was made aware of that message after I posted my response, and if I’m not mistaken, that was also in regards to a thread started by someone who was not you, in which case, again, the OP sets the tone for the thread. I see no inconsistency in our moderation in either situation. My being an administrator here has nothing to do with the application of the rules, which are applied as evenly and fairly as possible to all participants.

This isn’t the first time in recent memory where you’ve attempted to control the discussion because it didn’t suit your tastes or interests, and I’d appreciate it if we didn’t have to travel down this road again.

Post
#1216296
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

I really wish I could post as eloquently as Dre, Dom, and Jay are right now. I’ve enjoyed reading these last few posts. I can’t really add anything that hasn’t already been said better, though.

Too bad the entire conversation is basically completely off-topic.

A thread veering off topic is suddenly a concern for you after 9 years?

It sprung from a discussion about diversity in Solo. I welcome the diversion.

Post
#1216116
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

snooker said:

George Lucas at celebration last year said that “it’s a movie for twelve year old boys”.

I bet he wouldn’t have said that when he was making ANH. In fact, he’s spoken about Star Wars’ underlying themes using far more profound language previously.

His world view changed once he had his own kids, and in his mind that translated into Jar-Jar and poop jokes. I think he’s retconned his own brain a bit to feel better about some of those bad choices.

Post
#1216073
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

Please, you know what I mean.

Forgive me for responding to the words you used instead of whatever words were in your head.

You don’t have to be a mind reader to know what I’m talking about. There’s always been a “Star Wars is for boys” mindset that pervades certain areas of fandom and culture (less so now). It’s not hard to discern that that’s what I meant (I didn’t say anything about female SW fans not existing or whatever bs you put in my mouth).

Perhaps the reason I didn’t follow your argument is because I never considered Star Wars as something for boys. I’ll check with the female fans I know and see if I totally missed something, but they’ve never expressed a feeling of exclusion regarding the franchise to me.

I know I’m two days late and it’s also off-topic, but I’d like to mention that when TFA came out, my wife had a hell of a time finding Rey-themed merch for our daughters.

Also Princess Leia is like the only female presence in the entire OT.

I’m not sure why you (and potentially your female acquaintances) feel like Star Wars was never something for boys, but I’m quite sure a lot of girls felt that way for a long time.

It’s predominantly male in its casting for sure, but I don’t know why you’d expect different from a series of movies that are the interstellar equivalent of sword fights and dogfighting where most of the supporting cast is in the military.

I didn’t say I expected anything different, I said it’s obviously been “for boys” from the beginning.

Then why not make Leia the typical damsel in ANH so boys could experience the fantasy of saving her? Lucas put her in the slave bikini in ROTJ, sure, but that was at her captor’s hands (a scummy crime boss) for the purpose of humiliating her, and her payback was getting to choke him to death.

Suggesting Star Wars was made for boys also discounts all the female creative professionals who worked behind the scenes. I’d be interested to know if they felt they were making something for boys.

It’s just not “obviously” for boys to everyone, and looking at it through a gender-specific lens is a bit reductionist, I think.

Post
#1216063
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

TV’s Frink said:

So you don’t see the difference.

I mean I’m not even a fan of a celebrity going that route but it’s just not the same thing.

Donald Trump is a celebrity — a celebrity who beat the best the Democrats could offer in the race for President of the United States — and his antics helped get him into office. Ironically, mimicking those antics on the left will only further polarize voters and not help Democrats get him out.

Liberals should focus less on their own faux outrage and more on the anger that got Trump elected before they find themselves heading into another election loss this November. They’re far more successful when they’re engaged and listening than when they’re preaching and screeching.

Post
#1216050
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

Please, you know what I mean.

Forgive me for responding to the words you used instead of whatever words were in your head.

You don’t have to be a mind reader to know what I’m talking about. There’s always been a “Star Wars is for boys” mindset that pervades certain areas of fandom and culture (less so now). It’s not hard to discern that that’s what I meant (I didn’t say anything about female SW fans not existing or whatever bs you put in my mouth).

Perhaps the reason I didn’t follow your argument is because I never considered Star Wars as something for boys. I’ll check with the female fans I know and see if I totally missed something, but they’ve never expressed a feeling of exclusion regarding the franchise to me.

I know I’m two days late and it’s also off-topic, but I’d like to mention that when TFA came out, my wife had a hell of a time finding Rey-themed merch for our daughters.

Also Princess Leia is like the only female presence in the entire OT.

I’m not sure why you (and potentially your female acquaintances) feel like Star Wars was never something for boys, but I’m quite sure a lot of girls felt that way for a long time.

It’s predominantly male in its casting for sure, but I don’t know why you’d expect different from a series of movies that are the interstellar equivalent of sword fights and dogfighting where most of the supporting cast is in the military. While Leia might be the only female in a meaningful role, it was quite a role and a great representation of a strong woman. She flipped the “damsel in distress” trope on its head.

They definitely blew it with the TFA toys, though. I’d chalk that up to poor consumer research (believing boys were where the money was and that they wouldn’t be as interested in Rey merchandise) and general cluelessness about where the market is today rather than overt sexism. They certainly made up for it with TLJ toys.

Post
#1216037
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

Ryan-SWI said:

Mocata said:

They have a brand to maintain, it can’t be watered down with talk of multiple visions.

Considering they’ve managed to destroy their PR of the brand in 2 and a half years a Director’s Cut would probably be the least damaging thing they’ve done in a while.

That being said we’ll get a Jar Jar Binks spin off before that happens.

Also the film has barely crossed 300 million worldwide, am I still being premature in calling it a box office flop or?..

No. It bombed. They’ll be fortunate to break even with home releases.

Post
#1215949
Topic
Han - Solo Movie ** Spoilers **
Time

Handman said:

screams in the void said:

not a fan of most Marvel movies then ?

They’re the movie equivalent to McDonalds. You enjoy it for what it is. Star Wars shouldn’t be that.

It might be difficult to accept, but for most moviegoers outside the hardcore fanbase, Star Wars is McDonald’s. They consume it, enjoy it for what it is, then get on with their lives. They don’t debate the merits of the movie for decades afterwards in forums.

Frankly, I’m amazed at how Marvel can link everything together and have it remain fairly consistent and good enough for most people to enjoy it (like fast food).

TFA was like a Big Mac at two in the morning after the bars let out. TLJ was closer to a McDonald’s salad: some healthy stuff in there, but not terribly satisfying.

Haven’t seen Solo yet, so I can’t really say, but it sounds like maybe it’s the Filet-O-Fish?

Post
#1215733
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

Please, you know what I mean.

Forgive me for responding to the words you used instead of whatever words were in your head.

You don’t have to be a mind reader to know what I’m talking about. There’s always been a “Star Wars is for boys” mindset that pervades certain areas of fandom and culture (less so now). It’s not hard to discern that that’s what I meant (I didn’t say anything about female SW fans not existing or whatever bs you put in my mouth).

Perhaps the reason I didn’t follow your argument is because I never considered Star Wars as something for boys. I’ll check with the female fans I know and see if I totally missed something, but they’ve never expressed a feeling of exclusion regarding the franchise to me. They just love Star Wars and always have. I feel sorry for any woman who grew up being given a hard time because she liked Star Wars.

No doubt the toy commercials primarily targeted boys, though. (I saw a few girls after watching a bunch of commercials on YouTube, but not many.)

Just because you’re decent and don’t see it as “boys only” mean it’s not a common viewpoint. For me, I was introduced to SW through my mom, and then my aunt took me to see most of the prequels. So the idea that “SW is for boys” was foreign to me until I went to school and saw girls get shit for liking it. It’s more than just the toy commercials and it’s still a sentiment whispered throughout the internet (I just saw a tweet the other day from the Rebel Force Radio podcast proudly back this “SW is a boy thing” up). I’ve seen it on this site too (though not often or recently).

The gender disparity in the films doesn’t help of course (and because I guess I have to clarify, that doesn’t mean that women can’t like it. But I’ve seen some turned off).

It’s unfortunate that some men see Star Wars as theirs and some women are turned off because of it, and everything surrounding the treatment Kelly Marie Tran has received on social media is gross. Anyone complaining about Rey being a woman is ridiculous; there are so many valid reasons to complain about her character that have nothing to do with her gender 😉

I enjoy watching some of the more passionate female fans on YouTube, all of whom unapologetically love Star Wars — and some of whom unapologetically dislike the newer films. It shows there’s a split even among female fans despite an effort to cater to that demographic. Turns out they love Luke and care just as much about the shabby manner in which that character was treated in TLJ.

Apologies to anyone following the thread for taking things so far off topic, but I think these are fascinating discussions we’re having.

Post
#1215714
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

Please, you know what I mean.

Forgive me for responding to the words you used instead of whatever words were in your head.

You don’t have to be a mind reader to know what I’m talking about. There’s always been a “Star Wars is for boys” mindset that pervades certain areas of fandom and culture (less so now). It’s not hard to discern that that’s what I meant (I didn’t say anything about female SW fans not existing or whatever bs you put in my mouth).

Perhaps the reason I didn’t follow your argument is because I never considered Star Wars as something for boys. I’ll check with the female fans I know and see if I totally missed something, but they’ve never expressed a feeling of exclusion regarding the franchise to me. They just love Star Wars and always have. I feel sorry for any woman who grew up being given a hard time because she liked Star Wars.

No doubt the toy commercials primarily targeted boys, though. (I saw a few girls after watching a bunch of commercials on YouTube, but not many.)

She shouldn’t have to hold people’s hands and explain that that statement doesn’t mean to the exclusion of males, that much should be obvious and easy enough to understand.

The statement itself directly contradicts what you’re saying. It’s intentionally exclusionary and meant to rile up (admittedly insecure) men. And it plays off “The Future is Female”, which isn’t anything new, but was reintroduced and popularized during the last presidential campaign.

Nope. Nice try though.

This is a non-response. If you won’t provide an argument to refute what I said, why bother responding at all?

Sometimes I just don’t have the energy for endless debates. But if you must know, my clarification is readily available to read as a response to pleasehello’s post.

I saw that, and if it had been your reply to me, I wouldn’t have responded the way I did.

If you don’t have the energy to contribute a thoughtful reply, which I totally understand because these types of discussions can become exhausting, then don’t reply. Pretty easy really.

Post
#1215606
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

Please, you know what I mean.

Forgive me for responding to the words you used instead of whatever words were in your head.

She shouldn’t have to hold people’s hands and explain that that statement doesn’t mean to the exclusion of males, that much should be obvious and easy enough to understand.

The statement itself directly contradicts what you’re saying. It’s intentionally exclusionary and meant to rile up (admittedly insecure) men. And it plays off “The Future is Female”, which isn’t anything new, but was reintroduced and popularized during the last presidential campaign.

Nope. Nice try though.

This is a non-response. If you won’t provide an argument to refute what I said, why bother responding at all?

Post
#1215580
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Just because people are making stuff up doesn’t mean it’s true.

That doesn’t really matter, if people believe that it is. Perception is what matters most, IMO. I also believe these perceptions are not totally without foundation. When I see the President of LFL wearing a t-shirt saying the Force is female, I wonder, what is that all about? I wasn’t aware the Force had a gender. Is this going to affect the way these stories are told? If LFL can’t control how it, and their products are percieved, particulary by their core fanbase, who are very loud about their displeasures, Solo will not be the last film to disappoint at the box office. The general audience might not care as much about the Star Wars franchise as its fans, but fan sentiment and perceptions will carry over to the general audience through big media outlets as it did for the PT.

That clearly means that she’s supporting female Star Wars fans (a previously unrepresented and unrespected demo)

A lot of my fellow Star Wars fans growing up were female, and I’d be hard-pressed to find one who felt unrepresented or disrespected by the franchise. We sat next to each other and enjoyed the films together. And there are plenty of female fans on YouTube and social media expressing their displeasure with the direction the franchise is taking today — and they’re just as rabid as the men when expressing their feelings.

She shouldn’t have to hold people’s hands and explain that that statement doesn’t mean to the exclusion of males, that much should be obvious and easy enough to understand.

The statement itself directly contradicts what you’re saying. It’s intentionally exclusionary and meant to rile up (admittedly insecure) men. And it plays off “The Future is Female”, which isn’t anything new, but was reintroduced and popularized during the last presidential campaign.

Totally off topic, but this is one of the reasons why I enjoyed the Lost In Space reboot: no politics.

Post
#1215358
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

People still showed up in theaters for them despite the mediocre reviews, which tells us audiences found them relevant.

I’m not so sure we know what it tells us.

It tells us people were willing to get off their couches and pay for a ticket, which is more than they were willing to do for Solo.

Post
#1215357
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t buy the “protest” argument at all (seems a little tin foil hat to me). If hardcore fans didn’t like TLJ, they probably know that Solo has nothing to do with it. IX’s performance will be a better indicator of the true response to VIII. I think the “boycott Soylo” group is a pretty minor demo, especially considering most of those people probably saw it anyway.

It’s all speculation, and I agree that IX’s numbers will be a better indicator. I think they’ll be worse than TLJ’s unless there are some clear indicators from Disney that they’re changing direction.

As always with SW, the fact of the matter is most of the audience is made up of casual fans at best. For them I think the main reason is that they still see Star Wars as one single franchise, whereas something like Marvel is a combination of different franchises (which is to say nothing of the fact that Solo’s performance is roughly on par with most Marvel origin movies). I do think the five month gap probably hurt it, as people aren’t used to so much SW at once, and checked out when they felt this one was skippable.

Unless TLJ is what told them it was skippable, because Star Wars itself has become skippable.

It was already skippable the minute TPM was released. Disney made it relevant again.

Box office says different.

Clearly I wasn’t referring to the box office, but regardless, one poor showing and the franchise is dead. Ok.

I was referring to the prequels’ box office. Sorry for not being clear. People still showed up in theaters for them despite the mediocre reviews, which tells us audiences found them relevant.

A lot of people hoped the next one would be better. It’s apples and oranges anyway, “Episodes” vs. spin-offs. The former implies required viewing.

And I never said the franchise was dead because of Solo’s numbers. If TFA proved anything, it’s that Star Wars fans will come back in droves to give the franchise another chance. Solo’s numbers are a message to Disney; they can either rationalize the loss with a bunch of excuses like I’m seeing in this thread, or they can do some soul-searching and ask themselves why TLJ split the fanbase and Solo flopped soon after.

It just seems silly to me to assume that if there’s a message about Solo it has to do with the quality of TLJ. Saying that the reason has more to do with the concept and placement of the film at hand (and not the reaction to a mostly unrelated film) is an excuse is ridiculous. It’s about paying attention to far more relevant factors.

I’m also not sure what you’re implying in regards to the “why” TLJ split the fanbase and what especially that’d have to do with Solo.

I’m not sure why everyone is placing so much weight on the idea that Solo’s lack of a number makes it this entirely different beast subject to its own rules. Bring up RO as a comparison, which did just fine, and the excuse becomes the time of year, even though Memorial Day weekend has been a haven for blockbusters for decades. Refute that idea and the poor turnout is because some unrelated comic book movies came out the week before and stole its thunder.

And why wouldn’t a dislike for TLJ translate into a lower likelihood of seeing Solo, especially if it’s somehow “less than” a numbered Star Wars film? I skipped RO in theaters because I wasn’t a fan of TFA. It’s a franchise, not a bunch of one-offs.

Seems to me you guys are drawing this firm line between Solo and everything else even though there’s no evidence this line exists, and then you brush aside RO’s relative success as a mere issue of release timing. RO was no more “necessary” than Solo and it was released at a time of year when people are busier than they are during Memorial Day weekend. I don’t think anyone, even Disney, expected Solo to succeed like a numbered film, but to fall so far short of RO’s numbers was a shocker.

I’m not saying fans’ dissatisfaction with TLJ explains Solo’s poor showing in its entirety; a loss that big involves many factors. But I’m not going to brush it aside as some anomaly either.

Post
#1215347
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t buy the “protest” argument at all (seems a little tin foil hat to me). If hardcore fans didn’t like TLJ, they probably know that Solo has nothing to do with it. IX’s performance will be a better indicator of the true response to VIII. I think the “boycott Soylo” group is a pretty minor demo, especially considering most of those people probably saw it anyway.

It’s all speculation, and I agree that IX’s numbers will be a better indicator. I think they’ll be worse than TLJ’s unless there are some clear indicators from Disney that they’re changing direction.

As always with SW, the fact of the matter is most of the audience is made up of casual fans at best. For them I think the main reason is that they still see Star Wars as one single franchise, whereas something like Marvel is a combination of different franchises (which is to say nothing of the fact that Solo’s performance is roughly on par with most Marvel origin movies). I do think the five month gap probably hurt it, as people aren’t used to so much SW at once, and checked out when they felt this one was skippable.

Unless TLJ is what told them it was skippable, because Star Wars itself has become skippable.

It was already skippable the minute TPM was released. Disney made it relevant again.

Box office says different.

Clearly I wasn’t referring to the box office, but regardless, one poor showing and the franchise is dead. Ok.

I was referring to the prequels’ box office. Sorry for not being clear. People still showed up in theaters for them despite the mediocre reviews, which tells us audiences found them relevant.

And I never said the franchise was dead because of Solo’s numbers. If TFA proved anything, it’s that Star Wars fans will come back in droves to give the franchise another chance. Solo’s numbers are a message to Disney; they can either rationalize the loss with a bunch of excuses like I’m seeing in this thread, or they can do some soul-searching and ask themselves why TLJ split the fanbase and Solo flopped soon after.

Post
#1217035
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

The official Solo review thread became quite lively when the discussion turned toward the subject of politics and diversity in the latest Star Wars films. Since it keeps coming up, the mods and I agreed it would be best if we started a topic dedicated to this discussion.

Has Star Wars become influenced by politics? If so, to what degree? Is it a good or bad thing?

Is Rey a “Mary Sue”? Is that term inherently misogynistic?

Have SJWs really taken over Star Wars, or has a significant portion of the fanbase simply become toxic and unaccepting of new ideas and characters?

The tangent in the Solo thread was interesting and mostly respectful, so let’s keep that same theme running here.

Since this started in the middle of another thread, the posts below may be a bit non sequitur or contain some gaps. Please let me know if there are any posts in the Solo thread that you think should be here.

Post
#1215301
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t buy the “protest” argument at all (seems a little tin foil hat to me). If hardcore fans didn’t like TLJ, they probably know that Solo has nothing to do with it. IX’s performance will be a better indicator of the true response to VIII. I think the “boycott Soylo” group is a pretty minor demo, especially considering most of those people probably saw it anyway.

It’s all speculation, and I agree that IX’s numbers will be a better indicator. I think they’ll be worse than TLJ’s unless there are some clear indicators from Disney that they’re changing direction.

As always with SW, the fact of the matter is most of the audience is made up of casual fans at best. For them I think the main reason is that they still see Star Wars as one single franchise, whereas something like Marvel is a combination of different franchises (which is to say nothing of the fact that Solo’s performance is roughly on par with most Marvel origin movies). I do think the five month gap probably hurt it, as people aren’t used to so much SW at once, and checked out when they felt this one was skippable.

Unless TLJ is what told them it was skippable, because Star Wars itself has become skippable.

It was already skippable the minute TPM was released. Disney made it relevant again.

Box office says different.