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Jay

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22-Feb-2003
Last activity
15-Jan-2019
Posts
4519

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Post
#1251916
Topic
The deletion of the political threads.
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

Post Praetorian said:

I would also appreciate having them restored…I have often enjoyed participating therein and have a concern that the discussion of politics is at this time more important than ever given the lack of understanding among various factions…

There was little desire for understanding or a genuine exchange of ideas in the politics threads of late, which is why they’re in cold storage for the time being.

That isn’t true. The fact that there was little to no agreement does not mean that people weren’t having a “genuine exchange of ideas” (which is a meaningless phrase, by the way), it just means that people were having an intense exchange of ideas in which each other’s ideas were being picked apart or shot down.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. With the exception of Mrebo and CatBus, I don’t think the exchange was rooted in achieving a better understanding of the other side’s position because each side (myself included) had already come to a conclusion about the other’s position, hence not being a “genuine exchange of ideas”.

Not liking what people have to say does not mean that someone has “already come to a conclusion about the other’s position.” Civility also does not equal genuineness.

Like I said, we just don’t agree.

Post
#1251705
Topic
Join the OT.com Discord server!
Time

We’ve opened an official Discord server so members of the forum can chat in real time. For the time being, we’re restricting access to forum members only.

Please PM either SilverWook or Anchorhead to get access.

When you join, please change your nickname to match your forum username. Just like forum socks, spoofing other members is against the rules and will result in a ban.

Post
#1251683
Topic
The deletion of the political threads.
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

Post Praetorian said:

I would also appreciate having them restored…I have often enjoyed participating therein and have a concern that the discussion of politics is at this time more important than ever given the lack of understanding among various factions…

There was little desire for understanding or a genuine exchange of ideas in the politics threads of late, which is why they’re in cold storage for the time being.

That isn’t true. The fact that there was little to no agreement does not mean that people weren’t having a “genuine exchange of ideas” (which is a meaningless phrase, by the way), it just means that people were having an intense exchange of ideas in which each other’s ideas were being picked apart or shot down.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. With the exception of Mrebo and CatBus, I don’t think the exchange was rooted in achieving a better understanding of the other side’s position because each side (myself included) had already come to a conclusion about the other’s position, hence not being a “genuine exchange of ideas”.

Post
#1251453
Topic
The deletion of the political threads.
Time

dahmage said:

Continued from https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1251447/action/topic#1251447

In regards to the would warnings work question from Jay:

I’m going to be honest I’m pretty sure I didn’t receive any official warnings.

and yes I do think some official warnings would have stopped it but I also believe that most people expect that warnings apply for small periods of time.

for example if I get more than one month and then again another month I don’t really see that as a total of two warnings for the same incident.

(I’m not being snarky with these questions, just to be clear. I really want to understand.)

You don’t view warnings to other members for a particular behavior as applying to you as well? Warning Frink many times for snark didn’t make you think doing the same would be a problem?

And you don’t see warnings as having a cumulative effect over time? Because we definitely keep track (more or less, not like an official tally, but more of a “this member has definitely been warned multiple times for this” sort of thing).

There’s a fundamental disconnect between how we view warnings and how you do. If a mod says, “Please don’t do X”, it’s not a request to stop doing it for a while and then permission to start up again later.

Interesting.

Post
#1251451
Topic
Movies you watch every Halloween
Time

timemeddler said:

Where to start, for a really creepy oldie, it’s hard to beat City of the Dead, and it’s hard to skip the original House on Haunted Hill. On the lighter side Little Shop of Horrors is a good option if you have kids, or a decent sense of humor. More recently, aka color era, I’ll probably re-watch Rituals 1977(sort of along the lines of deliverance) since it’s apparently getting a restoration for bluray.

I haven’t seen the original House on Haunted Hill in a long time. Had it on DVD and never upgraded after I sold my collection in anticipation of Blu-ray. Need to pick it up.

I’ve never seen City of the Dead or Rituals. Big fan of Deliverance, so that’s quite an endorsement.

Handman said:

How are you planning on watching Dawn of the Dead? The DVDs and single Blu-ray have been OOP for a very long time. I missed out!

I picked up the 3-disc Blu-ray from Arrow in the UK a while back:

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Dawn-of-the-Dead-Blu-ray/6666/

I have a lot of UK stuff in my collection because they do some nice special editions. Planning to pick up these bad boys soon:


I’ve still yet to see The Invisible Man, but if the rest of the film is like the clips I’ve already seen, I love it already.

It’s amazing. Put it on your list this year if you can.

I don’t really have any ritual for Halloween, but my favorite horror films would have to be from Hammer. Brides of Dracula, Curse of the Werewolf are among the best. But there are others that ape their style, and add a bit of something else like giallo or mystery, like Theater of Blood, Tales from the Crypt, and Asylum. Of course I love the usual Universal Horror too, mostly the Frankenstein films. And the great silents, Nosferatu, Phantom of the Opera, and The Man Who Laughs.

And who could forget The Devil’s Rain?

I’ve never looked into the Hammer stuff. Is it more on the campy side?

ray_afraid said:

Creepshow

“Thanks for the ride, lady!”

canofhumdingers said:

We try to rotate different films in and out every year, but we tend to stick to classics since neither my wife nor I particularly enjoy anything too gory, gruesome, or truly frightening.

This year so far we’ve watched The Monolith Monsters, Bride of Frankenstein, Creature from the Black Lagoon, and the MST3K version of Horrors of Spider Island. Tonight we’re headed to the local Alamo Drafthouse to watch Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman on the big screen! Very excited for that, it’ll be the first classic universal horror I’ve seen in the theater, AND it’s my first time seeing that particular film!

Seeing these old favorites in a real theater has got to be the best way to do it. Jealous, especially of any first-time experience, because you can never experience it quite that way again.

joefavs said:

  1. The Thing (1982)

Forgot this one. I watch it every year. Easily in my top 10. And the original is great, too!

I’m supposed to rent that bonkers Nic Cage movie Mandy at some point with some buddies too, but schedules haven’t yet permitted it.

Saw the trailer for Mandy and need to check that out. Too many to keep up with.

Has anyone here seen Blood Drive on SyFy? I LOVED it. Probably too much for some, but I was extremely disappointed it didn’t get renewed. Seems like something the El Rey Network should’ve picked up.

Post
#1251447
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

Handman said:

Remove the admin badge from the bottom of my posts and they fit right in with all the rest. Yet somehow, I’m abusive and hostile and everyone else is a victim.

replying to some of you in kind is beneath me and maybe I shouldn’t do it, but at the very least, it makes those of you criticizing me for it hypocrites.

I didn’t want to get too involved one way or another, but this post is a bit of a tipping point for me. Let me at least try to explain where the others are coming from.

It is precisely because you are an admin that people feel this way. Far as I can tell, you want to be a normal contributor, but your status as admin prevents that. You, more than anyone else, are an example for how the community should behave. If you are overly-hostile, it doesn’t matter if they were hostile first, you are the admin and should be setting an example. You often bemoan the way the others behave, but you yourself admit that your posts fit in with all the rest, so why should you expect any different…?

It is not hypocritical to hold administrators to a different standard.

Generally speaking, yes. In the context of a political debate, I don’t agree. Participants should be able to walk away from the debate and still talk in other threads without issues. If they can’t, then maybe they’re not emotionally mature enough to be discussing politics.

I don’t have a problem with the contentious tone in the politics threads; it’s unrealistic to expect them to be 100% civil. That’s politics. However, the one thing I did request, repeatedly, over and over and over again, is that those participating not do so if all they can offer is a snarky one-liner as a response. That’s what kicked all this off, as stupid as it was. It was remarkable how removing one member from the discussion instantly cleared up that problem, because not only was he prevented from derailing things, but all his pals suddenly lost interest in politics for some reason. That month was the best month in the politics thread in years. Weird how it all started up again as soon as he came back, including the bad behavior from the fan club who found their interest in politics mysteriously reignited.

What do you propose I do? Genuine question. Here are the options I see, but I welcome your input.

  1. I continue as I have been, participating like any other member. I speak at the same level as others, including when things get snippy, and in exchange we have an experience that is as close to unmoderated as possible while still maintaining rules to keep things on the rails. Warnings are relatively few and far between (as they have been, even though some of you probably feel otherwise), and occasionally someone gets banned because they don’t know when to quit.

  2. I up my game and avoid escalating confrontations. I stay polite when presented with hostility. However, because I’m expected to be a model member and mod, I can never truly engage and must respond to provocations with appropriate warnings per the rules. And not an endless stream of warnings; multiple warnings result in a ban.

  3. I strip myself of mod powers. You guys trust the mods to moderate (I do) and not play favorites. We’d need another mod for sure, and the existing mods would have to agree to it. They can’t ban me, though, just call out bad behavior; shame will have to be enough of a motivator. I’m not getting banned from my own forum, sorry 😉

dahmage said:

Jay said:

bkev said:

^This is very true. I remember even thinking ~6years ago that we could have been much more welcoming to new users. Although I never felt it myself, I definitely did see a certain amount of hazing going on throughout the forum. That’s where our agreements end, full stop.

BUT that does not excuse how you continually abuse your power and borderline bully those who disagree with you.

As someone who has at previous points decried Off Topic’s tomfoolery led by OT’s very own Rat Pack, I have to admit–the more moderated the forums, the less fun it got. And I think it has to do with the appearance of a certain administrator more than mods asking people to, God forbid, follow the rules. The attitude I’ve seen from Jay, who admittedly is not alone in such awful behavior, is extremely off-putting. In all honesty, in other than most recent outbursts that were the final straw causing the bans, it seemed like everyone was on the run from him. And that’s no way to treat people who came to a community you run to talk about the stuff they care about. This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.

Just a lurker’s two cents. In short, to Jay:

ChainsawAsh said:

Jeaus fucking Christ. The lack of self awareness on display here is astounding.

Please explain how I abuse my power.

Perhaps a list of those I’ve banned because we had a difference of opinion? (That would be a short list…as in zero.) Maybe links to posts I’ve made outside the political discussions that are combative without cause (aside from threads like these where I’ve spent at least a decade being told I’m a Nazi, bully, etc.)? I freely admit to being hostile sometimes in the political threads, which was, as you noted, not unique to me in any way. Remove the admin badge from the bottom of my posts and they fit right in with all the rest. Yet somehow, I’m abusive and hostile and everyone else is a victim.

Everyone on this forum has been given great latitude over the years, especially as it pertains to criticizing the mods and myself. We tighten up the rules to get some of you under control (because some of you were totally out of control) and of course we start hearing these accusations of abuse, censorship, etc. And it was from everyone I’d expect. It happened during the first “purge” with Dayv, boon, Warb, et al. and it’s happening again today with the Rat Pack, as you call it. They’re smug and hostile in the politics threads and when they get the same in return, they cry, “Abuse! Acting this way is beneath you!”

That last bit is probably true…replying to some of you in kind is beneath me and maybe I shouldn’t do it, but at the very least, it makes those of you criticizing me for it hypocrites.

These accusations of abuse, as always, are completely baseless. Despite 15 years of posts that prove I’ve never banned anyone because they engaged in a debate with me, these accusations will continue because so many of you are happy to play the victim and position me as your big bully.

Feeling bullied isn’t the same as being bullied.

This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.

Thanks in particular for that.

chyron8472 said:

Jay, I really wish you could be more introspective and actually consider a measure of criticism as valid instead of altogether being defensive and dismissive of it. If enough people are saying that you make a habit of being arrogant and/or a jerk, there may be truth to it even if they way the say it is tactless and unkind.

I don’t know what else to say, if you’re unwilling to accept any measure of wrongdoing.

I’ve thought about it a lot. The problem is that I’ve reached a different conclusion than you have and I’m not going to cater to those of you who I believe will never be happy unless I change my personality to suit you. You might as well ask Dom to be less smug or mfm to be more cheerful. I’m kind of a dick sometimes and that’s just the way it is.

Maybe some of you would be happier at TFN, SW.com, or any number of other forums. I’m sure they’d allow those of you who’ve been oppressed here to post without fear of being bullied, as you freely criticize the mods and admins without any repercussions.

How many post reports did you personally submit because you were being bullied by Frink, Possessed, and whoever else? Who was it that stuck up for you when you were new here? Your new “friends”? Nope. The mods and I did. My arrogant ass stepped in when the Rat Pack found its new punching bag.

I return politeness and respect in kind. I also return smugness, condescension, and hostility in kind. Anyone on the receiving end should look in the damn mirror.

Those who’ve shared their criticisms in, as you put it, a tactless or unkind manner, can fuck right off.

Jay,

you are arrogant though. how else are we to read this?

I return politeness and respect in kind. I also return smugness, condescension, and hostility in kind. Anyone on the receiving end should look in the damn mirror.

^ that is essentially you absolving yourself of any blame, because someone else is the problem, not you.

and yes, you have never banned someone because they outright agree with you. but you DO call people out on harmless shit in a manner that escalates said shit. case in point, my “cool” comment. it was such a dumb little thing, and look how much you blew it up? sure, you didn’t ban me, but you banning people for what they say isn’t the complaint. The complaint is that when you post, your ‘admin power’ is absolutely a factor to be concerned about. Had a more level-headed mod stepped it (That means one not involved in the interaction) i would have expected some level of tactful warning or reminder to keep it civil, etc. because we know that humans post things that they might rethink later. but that is NOT the way you do things, you escalate.

(all of this is my opinion)

I have no problem with you expressing your opinion.

In your opinion, how many warnings would’ve been sufficient? Were the countless warnings over the previous year asking everyone not to reply with snide one-word or one-line replies insufficient? Was it not enough of an example that Frink was warned endlessly for that behavior and ultimately banned for it (among other things, twice now)?

It’s a real question. How many warnings should we have to issue before you guys finally take the request seriously?

Here’s what I’ve learned during the 15 years I’ve run this place and the ~25 years I’ve participated in other forums as a member: warnings don’t work. They’re merely an administrative requirement to facilitate an eventual ban.

Yes, SilverWook would’ve handled it differently. He’s a peacemaker. I’m an agitator (hence the existence of the original petition and this forum). Anchorhead is a sniper positioned a thousand yards out. For better or worse, these are our personalities, not personas we’ve adopted.

Would another warning by Wook have gotten you to stop? Temporarily, at best. If I’d followed the rules strictly, and perhaps I should have, I would’ve banned you for ignoring repeated warnings, and we’d all be here (minus you) talking about how I abuse my powers because I banned someone in the context of a debate.

Kobayashi Maru.

Handman said:

The reaction to the closing of the politics thread was disproportionate, but communicating that decision could have been better too.

Even though I don’t think it would’ve changed the tone of the discussion at all, I regret not writing something up to announce the changes and providing a thread to discuss them in an organized fashion. Major failure on my part.

Anyone who wishes to discuss things further should direct their comments here:

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-deletion-of-the-political-threads/id/63465

Post
#1251303
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

bkev said:

^This is very true. I remember even thinking ~6years ago that we could have been much more welcoming to new users. Although I never felt it myself, I definitely did see a certain amount of hazing going on throughout the forum. That’s where our agreements end, full stop.

BUT that does not excuse how you continually abuse your power and borderline bully those who disagree with you.

As someone who has at previous points decried Off Topic’s tomfoolery led by OT’s very own Rat Pack, I have to admit–the more moderated the forums, the less fun it got. And I think it has to do with the appearance of a certain administrator more than mods asking people to, God forbid, follow the rules. The attitude I’ve seen from Jay, who admittedly is not alone in such awful behavior, is extremely off-putting. In all honesty, in other than most recent outbursts that were the final straw causing the bans, it seemed like everyone was on the run from him. And that’s no way to treat people who came to a community you run to talk about the stuff they care about. This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.

Just a lurker’s two cents. In short, to Jay:

ChainsawAsh said:

Jeaus fucking Christ. The lack of self awareness on display here is astounding.

Please explain how I abuse my power.

Perhaps a list of those I’ve banned because we had a difference of opinion? (That would be a short list…as in zero.) Maybe links to posts I’ve made outside the political discussions that are combative without cause (aside from threads like these where I’ve spent at least a decade being told I’m a Nazi, bully, etc.)? I freely admit to being hostile sometimes in the political threads, which was, as you noted, not unique to me in any way. Remove the admin badge from the bottom of my posts and they fit right in with all the rest. Yet somehow, I’m abusive and hostile and everyone else is a victim.

Everyone on this forum has been given great latitude over the years, especially as it pertains to criticizing the mods and myself. We tighten up the rules to get some of you under control (because some of you were totally out of control) and of course we start hearing these accusations of abuse, censorship, etc. And it was from everyone I’d expect. It happened during the first “purge” with Dayv, boon, Warb, et al. and it’s happening again today with the Rat Pack, as you call it. They’re smug and hostile in the politics threads and when they get the same in return, they cry, “Abuse! Acting this way is beneath you!”

That last bit is probably true…replying to some of you in kind is beneath me and maybe I shouldn’t do it, but at the very least, it makes those of you criticizing me for it hypocrites.

These accusations of abuse, as always, are completely baseless. Despite 15 years of posts that prove I’ve never banned anyone because they engaged in a debate with me, these accusations will continue because so many of you are happy to play the victim and position me as your big bully.

Feeling bullied isn’t the same as being bullied.

This place was legitimately, much better when you didn’t give a shit about it.

Thanks in particular for that.

chyron8472 said:

Jay, I really wish you could be more introspective and actually consider a measure of criticism as valid instead of altogether being defensive and dismissive of it. If enough people are saying that you make a habit of being arrogant and/or a jerk, there may be truth to it even if they way the say it is tactless and unkind.

I don’t know what else to say, if you’re unwilling to accept any measure of wrongdoing.

I’ve thought about it a lot. The problem is that I’ve reached a different conclusion than you have and I’m not going to cater to those of you who I believe will never be happy unless I change my personality to suit you. You might as well ask Dom to be less smug or mfm to be more cheerful. I’m kind of a dick sometimes and that’s just the way it is.

Maybe some of you would be happier at TFN, SW.com, or any number of other forums. I’m sure they’d allow those of you who’ve been oppressed here to post without fear of being bullied, as you freely criticize the mods and admins without any repercussions.

How many post reports did you personally submit because you were being bullied by Frink, Possessed, and whoever else? Who was it that stuck up for you when you were new here? Your new “friends”? Nope. The mods and I did. My arrogant ass stepped in when the Rat Pack found its new punching bag.

I return politeness and respect in kind. I also return smugness, condescension, and hostility in kind. Anyone on the receiving end should look in the damn mirror.

Those who’ve shared their criticisms in, as you put it, a tactless or unkind manner, can fuck right off.

Post
#1251298
Topic
open letter by Collipso
Time

Post Praetorian said:

Further, his responses in the politics thread have generally been fairly reasonable and thought-out. They have not been baiting so as to draw an opponent into a crossfire and have not been unsupportable rants of pure emotion…they have been considerate, calm, focused, consistent, and mature.

Eh, for the most part, yes. But on some days, the best that can be said is that I wasn’t any nastier than my opponent.

Thank you for the kind words otherwise.

Post
#1251295
Topic
The deletion of the political threads.
Time

Post Praetorian said:

I would also appreciate having them restored…I have often enjoyed participating therein and have a concern that the discussion of politics is at this time more important than ever given the lack of understanding among various factions…

There was little desire for understanding or a genuine exchange of ideas in the politics threads of late, which is why they’re in cold storage for the time being.

Post
#1251278
Topic
Movies you watch every Halloween
Time

I own a few too many horror films to watch them all in one month, but there are some that I make time for every year, plus a few new additions.

This year’s new addition was the UK Phantasm box set, which I just finished:

These films are mostly terrible, but I really enjoyed them, and the restoration of the first film is breathtaking.

Between now and next week, I’m planning to watch the complete original Living Dead series (Night, Dawn, Day, and Land), the Puppet Master series (II is my favorite), and the complete Universal classic monster series:

I love all these old films, but my favorite is The Invisible Man. I only saw it for the first time maybe 5 years ago, and I was surprised at the humor, the cruelty of the main character, and Claude Rains’ amazing performance.

I’m really looking forward to Night of the Living Dead because I just picked up the restored Criterion version, which is supposed to be stunning.

Post
#1251273
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

Jay said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

This past year has seen this forum turn to ass.

Off Topic has been ass for years.

The rest of the forum is fine.

Different strokes and all.

so then maybe leave off topic alone… just saying.

Hard to argue things weren’t more enjoyable here when off topic was unmoderated and we were allowed to have silly fun threads without fear of an admin locking them for seemingly no reason other than he can’t handle some joking criticism.

Unmoderated Off Topic was a caustic shithole that turned new members away.

You guys lived and breathed it for so long that you didn’t see it.

Right, moderated off topic is now incredibly inviting to new members.

The only “new member” who’s had difficulty recently is Collipso, and it should be obvious why.

You can point the finger at me all you want; it doesn’t erase the fact that for years you guys ran Off Topic like it was your private club and membership was based on your approval. That ended a while back and some of you have been salty ever since.

I actually wasn’t much of a frequent poster in off topic until around the time it became moderated, but when I was new here I always appreciated the goofiness that populated the section. So you lumping me in with this nefarious “you guys” generalization is not just condescending, but inaccurate. Not to mention most of the “hazing” you’re talking about was limited to the myspleen thread, which you locked anyway. But you’re free to make up whatever you like to justify your reasoning, it’s your site of course.

I’m not making things up. The overall behavior in Off Topic when it was unmoderated was poor. Your characterization of that behavior being limited to a few threads is inaccurate.

If you didn’t actively participate in that behavior, you have my apologies. I don’t have a running catalog in my brain of every post by every member.

In fairness to what they’re saying, the lack of moderation and amount of ridiculousness in Off Topic was the main reason I stuck around. I get where you’re coming from, though, since that’s not what you intended this site to be. I think it got ugly when the new movies came out and the established community didn’t do a good job adapting to the reality of newcomers who had different expectations for the site (and the Frink-Fo Wars and Darth IDiocy were pretty frustrating as well).

That’s pretty much the case. I didn’t have a problem with old timers going after each other if that’s what made them happy, but the forum overall had a bad reputation for being not very welcoming to newcomers and it was especially toxic in Off Topic.

Post
#1251223
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

eiyosus said:

[Jay said:]I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

Speaking as somebody who was just discharged from a psych clinic after an extended stay, this statement is very far from the truth.

It was a stupid thing to say. mfm, I apologize. We may not agree on many things and I think the rest of the exchange has merit, but regardless of my own experiences, I don’t know yours and suggesting I know what’s going on in your head was wrong.

eiyosus, I’m glad you’re on the other end of treatment and hope you’re doing well.

Post
#1251197
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

It also isn’t just people in Off-Topic that have felt threatened by your attitude. People that only frequent the General Star Wars Discussion forum have pointed out in the toxic fandom thread and, I believe, in the politics and diversity thread (which you created and also deleted) that they felt uncomfortable engaging with you due to a combination of your hostility and your administrative powers.

I find this criticism interesting coming from a member I’d say has one of the most hostile attitudes on the forum, but okay, it’s based in reality because I do get hostile sometimes when discussing politics and people are freaked out by the admin badge, so fair play.

I don’t have the power to ban people or delete all evidence of prior discussion. My hostility carries absolutely no weight. Yours, on the other hand, does.

That doesn’t change the fact that you’re extremely hostile.

I didn’t delete any evidence and will likely restore those threads (at least make them readable, anyway) under a members-only section as I mentioned elsewhere, but keep going with this storyline if it allows you to fuel your anger.

Post
#1251195
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

hairy_hen said:

I don’t really want to wade into this mess, because usually I’m content to either ignore the stupidity that goes on, or just sit back and occasionally throw spitballs at it, but I feel compelled to say that the administrative “contributions” to the political thread before its removal were utterly infuriating.

When terrible things are happening in the world, and people try to express their frustration with said terrible things, for someone to come along and tell them their concerns are meaningless, and that they are just overreacting, is a remarkable display of tone-deafness. This is the message I heard over and over, and not only was it ill-advised, it was extremely condescending and insulting. I couldn’t even begin to guess the number of times I had an angry response to these absurd posts on the tip of my tongue, only to end up restraining myself because it simply would have fallen on deaf ears and accomplished nothing.

I won’t get any more specific than that, but suffice to say I was very disappointed to learn the latest round of disagreements had been settled in such an arbitrary fashion. When there’s as much bad feeling going on in this forum as there is, it’s helpful to be able to recognize that people have genuine reason to be as upset as they are, rather than just dismissing their concerns and calling them “childish”. That seems to be an ongoing theme with the administration of this place, though.

Truth be told, I’ve hardly posted here very much for the past few years, because I quickly tire of petty bickering and simply have better things to do than engage with it. I like to think I’ve made meaningful contributions to the cause of Star Wars preservation, if the positive comments on my work are anything to go by, but this is no longer the only place where that can happen. In spite of the stupidity, I often looked to the silliness of the off-topic section for a laugh when I needed one, but it looks like there’s going to be a lot less fun and a lot more bad feeling around here from now on.

Still, maybe it is better to just get rid of the whole topic. After all, I know plenty of people in real life who are perfectly nice in many other ways, but bring up anything political and they immediately turn into horrible monsters, and the only way to avoid strangling each other is to avoid the subject completely. If generations of human society can’t solve this dilemma, there’s no reason to think one forum should be able to do it, either.

So you disagreed with my politics and that made you angry, which of course makes me wrong (possibly a “horrible monster”, like the people you know who disagree with you) because your feelings dictate reality. You might consider that there was plenty of hyperbole and dismissive behavior on both sides of the debate. You might also consider the Politics threads weren’t places for people to get therapy to help them deal with world events, but to discuss those events and debate the surrounding politics.

The “toxic fandom” thread, despite its political nature, is still alive and kicking and acting as a support thread for those who don’t like what’s going on in the fandom currently, and the mods and I have made significant effort to keep that thread positive despite the fact that I don’t agree with everything that’s been said.

For what it’s worth, I don’t consider people I disagree with to be horrible monsters, and I don’t think you’re one, and we probably agree on more than you realize. But as everyone who participated in the Politics threads knows, I’m a far-right sympathizer 😕

Post
#1251190
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

To be fair, I’ve let my emotions get the better of me during political discussions lately—not to the point of posting flagrant insults, but I did anger some folks when I rebuked someone in a less-than-flattering way.

Lol, remember that time you accused me of being dishonest about my suicidal tendencies because, in your opinion, suicidal people don’t care enough about life to debate politics? Conveniently, that post of yours, along with the rest of the thread, is invisible now. People are not angry by your “less-than-flattering” behavior.

Here are our posts on the subject:



moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

Laugh more, you’ll live longer.

Why would anyone want to live longer?

This is why I don’t take you or your posts seriously.


Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

Laugh more, you’ll live longer.

Why would anyone want to live longer?

This is why I don’t take you or your posts seriously.

I’m sure I’ll lose plenty of sleep over that. For what it’s worth, the reason no one here takes your posts seriously is because you’re unwilling to admit what you actually believe.

EDIT: Also, it’s kind of interesting that you shrug off people that want to die as not being worthy of getting taken seriously. What does that have to do with my statements on other things?

EDIT2: Not to mention, that’s another tactic I’ve noticed you use a lot. You just find some arbitrary reason to ignore people’s statements so that you don’t have to actually address them.


moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

Laugh more, you’ll live longer.

Why would anyone want to live longer?

This is why I don’t take you or your posts seriously.

I’m sure I’ll lose plenty of sleep over that. For what it’s worth, the reason no one here takes your posts seriously is because you’re unwilling to admit what you actually believe.

Ask me any question about any issue you’d like and I’ll tell you what I believe. Go ahead. List 10 issues — healthcare, abortion, guns, immigration, net neutrality, whatever — and you’ll find I do indeed lean left on some and right on others.

EDIT: Also, it’s kind of interesting that you shrug off people that want to die as not being worthy of getting taken seriously. What does that have to do with my statements on other things?

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.


Jay said:

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

Why do people think that my outlook is for the amusement or annoyance of others? Read my posts in this thread, it’s obvious that I think quality of life is shit and most people are equally shit. I think everything is more or less a lost cause. You don’t know shit about me, and I don’t know what makes you an expert on what people who don’t think life is worth living like to do.


TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

I find this post terribly irresponsible. What if you’re wrong?

That would be unfortunate. mfm should seek help, but he’s said repeatedly he won’t seek any form of treatment.

I’d like him to stop referencing the meaninglessness of life as if it’s a supporting argument. I’d also like him to stop mapping his feelings about life and death onto everyone else (“Why would anyone want to live longer?”). Whether he really wants to die or not, almost everyone else doesn’t. I won’t indulge that. Suicide has affected me personally several times. I can assure you I take it seriously.


Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

I find this post terribly irresponsible. What if you’re wrong?

That would be unfortunate. mfm should seek help, but he’s said repeatedly he won’t seek any form of treatment.

I’d like him to stop referencing the meaninglessness of life as if it’s a supporting argument. I’d also like him to stop mapping his feelings about life and death onto everyone else (“Why would anyone want to live longer?”). Whether he really wants to die or not, almost everyone else doesn’t. I won’t indulge that. Suicide has affected me personally several times. I can assure you I take it seriously.

I don’t like being referred to as though I’m not present. If you find me so objectionable then tell me, don’t talk to other people about me like I’m an animal or child.


moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

I find this post terribly irresponsible. What if you’re wrong?

That would be unfortunate. mfm should seek help, but he’s said repeatedly he won’t seek any form of treatment.

I’d like him to stop referencing the meaninglessness of life as if it’s a supporting argument. I’d also like him to stop mapping his feelings about life and death onto everyone else (“Why would anyone want to live longer?”). Whether he really wants to die or not, almost everyone else doesn’t. I won’t indulge that. Suicide has affected me personally several times. I can assure you I take it seriously.

I don’t like being referred to as though I’m not present. If you find me so objectionable then tell me, don’t talk to other people about me like I’m an animal or child.

I was responding to Frink’s post, hence the third person reference. It wasn’t meant as an insult, but problems with perception vs. reality seems to be a recurring theme here.

I’m extending my previous decision not to respond to you regarding that single issue to all your posts from now on. I don’t believe you’re capable of rational discussion and won’t be drawn in further.


Jay said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Jay said:

TV’s Frink said:

Jay said:

I don’t take you seriously because I don’t believe you really want to die. People who think life isn’t worth living don’t spend their time debating topics that are largely about quality of life.

I find this post terribly irresponsible. What if you’re wrong?

That would be unfortunate. mfm should seek help, but he’s said repeatedly he won’t seek any form of treatment.

I’d like him to stop referencing the meaninglessness of life as if it’s a supporting argument. I’d also like him to stop mapping his feelings about life and death onto everyone else (“Why would anyone want to live longer?”). Whether he really wants to die or not, almost everyone else doesn’t. I won’t indulge that. Suicide has affected me personally several times. I can assure you I take it seriously.

I don’t like being referred to as though I’m not present. If you find me so objectionable then tell me, don’t talk to other people about me like I’m an animal or child.

I was responding to Frink’s post, hence the third person reference. It wasn’t meant as an insult, but problems with perception vs. reality seems to be a recurring theme here.

I’m extending my previous decision not to respond to you regarding that single issue to all your posts from now on. I don’t believe you’re capable of rational discussion and won’t be drawn in further.

You never really responded anyway. You’re unwilling to actually share what your real stance is. Reading your lies about not being a right-wing sympathizer isn’t really worth my time either.



That should be all of it. Edit: Added a few more.

Post
#1251179
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

I didn’t have a chance to read the relevant political discussions, but in the past, Jay has seemed much more level-headed and pleasant to debate than Frink, Possessed, etc., so I’m not sure what to make of all this. It’s a shame the funnest contributors all got banned, but at the same time, people certainly do seem to be acting “like babies.”

Hopefully we’ll see a return to normalcy though. I’d be quite sad if the people I’ve gotten to know over the last few years end up permabanned because of all this ridiculousness.

To be fair, I’ve let my emotions get the better of me during political discussions lately—not to the point of posting flagrant insults, but I did anger some folks when I rebuked someone in a less-than-flattering way. I posted my thoughts here:

https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1251173/action/topic#1251173

I haven’t made final decisions on the bans, but Collipso’s post to start that thread doesn’t bode well for his return.

Post
#1251175
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

dahmage said:

Jay said:

I don’t know what I’m going to do to resolve this conflict between contributor and admin, but I know it’s something I need to address.

I don’t know the answer either but I’m glad to see it is something you are planning to figure out.

If running this site really is a drag on you maybe you need to have an admin team.

Running the site isn’t a drag, it’s the idea of only running it and not being able to participate in any meaningful way because people are afraid that I’m going to ban them if I don’t like their opinion.

It’s not a fair assessment of how I’ve run things in my opinion, but I acknowledge the fear.

Post
#1251173
Topic
open letter by Collipso
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

OutboundFlight said:

Jay might overreact to certain things, but this post is just proof the same applies to you (if not more). He doesn’t deserve most of what you said.

I mean, to be fair, Jay deleted most of the threads that contained posts of his that would show he might have, in fact, deserved most of what has been said recently, so…

If you honestly believe I deserve most of what Collipso said, I don’t understand why you’re still here. How could this forum possibly function in any capacity with such a despot in charge?

I let my emotions get the better of me in the various politics threads—which would make me no different than most other participants—but I’m not ashamed of the intent behind my posts or for pushing contributors to offer more than snark in response to valid arguments. Even the most heated exchanges didn’t result in warnings or bans as long as they stayed on point, but I warned participants repeatedly that one-liner snark responses were not helpful and they should get out if they couldn’t contribute meaningfully. My response to one such post was probably overboard (though still fairly mild to any mature adult on the receiving end…“acting like an ass” or “being an ass” were my words I believe), at which point the pitchforks came out because I “broke my own rules” with a personal insult.

This is going to piss off some people, but everyone is already pissed, so fuck it: I think the hostility towards my posts in the politics threads has way more to do with my opinions than the way I carry myself, and if I were arguing in favor of the majority opinion in those threads, my “hostility” would rarely, if ever, get called out. I think some people wait for any excuse to go after an authority figure and then pounce at the first opportunity, which my slip-up in the Politics 2 thread enabled. And I think that some people aren’t mature enough to move past a passionate political debate and prefer to hold grudges that carry over into other discussions.

Perhaps given my repeated warnings I should’ve just temp-banned that member instead of responding the way I did, but I’m fairly certain everyone who lost their mind yesterday over those threads being removed would still have lost their minds over the temporary ban, because people love an excuse to rage, and the situation would’ve ended up pretty much the same.

Post
#1251166
Topic
If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place
Time

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

Jay said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

This past year has seen this forum turn to ass.

Off Topic has been ass for years.

The rest of the forum is fine.

Different strokes and all.

so then maybe leave off topic alone… just saying.

Hard to argue things weren’t more enjoyable here when off topic was unmoderated and we were allowed to have silly fun threads without fear of an admin locking them for seemingly no reason other than he can’t handle some joking criticism.

Unmoderated Off Topic was a caustic shithole that turned new members away.

You guys lived and breathed it for so long that you didn’t see it.

Right, moderated off topic is now incredibly inviting to new members.

The only “new member” who’s had difficulty recently is Collipso, and it should be obvious why.

You can point the finger at me all you want; it doesn’t erase the fact that for years you guys ran Off Topic like it was your private club and membership was based on your approval. That ended a while back and some of you have been salty ever since.

I actually wasn’t much of a frequent poster in off topic until around the time it became moderated, but when I was new here I always appreciated the goofiness that populated the section. So you lumping me in with this nefarious “you guys” generalization is not just condescending, but inaccurate. Not to mention most of the “hazing” you’re talking about was limited to the myspleen thread, which you locked anyway. But you’re free to make up whatever you like to justify your reasoning, it’s your site of course.

I’m not making things up. The overall behavior in Off Topic when it was unmoderated was poor. Your characterization of that behavior being limited to a few threads is inaccurate.

If you didn’t actively participate in that behavior, you have my apologies. I don’t have a running catalog in my brain of every post by every member.

As respectfully as I can say so, I don’t have a problem with the fact that you don’t have a perfect memory of the forum, but perhaps the generalizing demonizations is the exact kind of attitude that you could try to move beyond if you really do want this place to seem welcoming and to avoid more public flame out “fuck you Jay” posts.

As I said, I shouldn’t have generalized and I apologize for doing so. If you say you’re innocent, I’m not going to rifle through thousands of old posts in an attempt to prove otherwise.

Those who flamed out yesterday were part of the caustic environment I spoke of and I have no apologies to offer them. They can stay gone.

moviefreakedmind said:

It also isn’t just people in Off-Topic that have felt threatened by your attitude. People that only frequent the General Star Wars Discussion forum have pointed out in the toxic fandom thread and, I believe, in the politics and diversity thread (which you created and also deleted) that they felt uncomfortable engaging with you due to a combination of your hostility and your administrative powers.

I find this criticism interesting coming from a member I’d say has one of the most hostile attitudes on the forum, but okay, it’s based in reality because I do get hostile sometimes when discussing politics and people are freaked out by the admin badge, so fair play.

I created the forum because I wanted to have a place to talk about Star Wars and other nerd stuff, but I’ve struggled with the balance between meaningful participation and administrative responsibility. I don’t feel I should have to hold back in order to accommodate someone else’s sensibilities, but I understand why my admin status would cause some to feel intimidated. That’s not a feeling rooted in reality, however. I don’t ban people for disagreeing with me, even vehemently. Never have.

I’ve absolutely used my admin status to come down hard on members who don’t contribute meaningfully to a political discussion, and I’ll continue that without reservation if the politics threads are restored to active status. Some people are as threatened by a strong opinion from the opposite side of the debate as they are of the admin badge, and I think the admin badge provides a convenient way out when things start to get heated. Note that this accusation of “you’re an admin so this isn’t fair” has only happened in the various political discussions as far as I’m aware.

After years of minimal participation, I started posting again because maintaining the forum isn’t terribly satisfying by itself and I have no idea why I’d keep the doors open if my participation was only that of administrator. I zoned out for years in that support role and only responded to technical issues when they came up. The site would go down for days because of the hosting service we used at the time, and I just didn’t care because I felt no connection to the community.

I don’t know what I’m going to do to resolve this conflict between contributor and admin, but I know it’s something I need to address.

Post
#1251062
Topic
open letter by Collipso
Time

OutboundFlight said:

Remember that Jay is in charge of the site so without him, this forum wouldn’t exist. Every single good memory yoh’ve had here is, indirectly, because of him. He brought everybody together, yet it’s you who are breaking them apart.

While this is true in the strictest sense, it’s the members who’ve participated over the years who’ve made the community what it is. The mods and I shape it a bit with the rules and such, but starting the site was just a chance thing I did one day because I was angry about some DVDs and it seemed like a lot of other people were, too. Someone else could’ve started a petition and forum that day and I would’ve been just another participant.

I don’t want to minimize the work that’s gone into maintaining and moderating the site (the mods put up with a lot and I blindsided them on this one), but I don’t want to overstate my contribution either.

Post
#1251044
Topic
open letter by Collipso
Time

NeverarGreat said:

Collipso made the mistake of thinking that this forum is a democracy. It isn’t, nor should it be.

One thing I worry about is that the toxicity once held in the politics thread could drift into other areas of the forum once somewhat immune. How often have we said ‘Take it to the politics thread’ to preserve the civility of another one? Now the only recourse is to ban members who wish to express political views, or lock any thread which becomes mired in such toxicity. For this reason, I think there’s a place for such a thread.

I’ve had this debate countless times over the years with many members, both in public and in private, and the reason political threads remained open is because I felt as you do for a long time.

However, I’ve come to believe that in the current climate, the exact opposite has been happening: bad blood started in Politics was spreading to other parts of the forum. A disagreement in a political discussion would lead to a snide comment in what was otherwise a benign topic, then down it would go.

I also don’t believe that the politics threads were promoting a genuine exchange of ideas. They simply mirrored the current social media climate.

I take responsibility for my role in that. Perhaps it was better when I wasn’t contributing, but that’s also when I felt the least interested in the community or the site.

But bigger picture, what do we want in this forum?

I think everyone who frequents this site comes here because they find something here to enjoy, whether it’s the projects, the other members, Star Wars in general, or even some peculiar interest only served by the Off-Topic section. For me, I try to read every topic in the General and Fan Preservation/Fan Edits sections, and much of the Off-Topic section(s). I love to see people’s creativity and hear their love for movies. I think there is still a lot of this site which feels like it’s from an earlier internet time, when the camaraderie of shared interests overwhelmed any cynicism or division. Or maybe I joined in a time of relative calm, where the Star Wars universe was just six movies forvermore and we all knew how we felt about them, and this is all a case of rose-colored glasses.

The temptation is strong to descend into mean-spirited arguments with other members, to make decisions one later regrets. I’m no stranger to that vice. So I guess my point is that we could all stand to remember what brought us here in the first place, and what we want this site to be.

I’ve been thinking about this for a while myself, and I’ll admit that my relative lack of enthusiasm for the franchise’s most recent entries has left me wondering why I’m still doing it.