Jar Jar Bricks

I wonder if “no choice” might be better than “no part” only because it’s currently got a tiny bit of implication that they adopted her. This way we know her mother gave birth to her. Plus we open the door for her to still be genetically related to her mother, as assumably Anakin is related to Shmi by genetics as well. It would just be Rey’s father who would be the odd guy out. Another added benefit is that it implies the same thing as them never wanting her without directly saying it.

EDIT: Eh, I’ll probably just stick with “no part” only because any confusion would be cleared up later and it’s best to start with a significant level of intrigue.

Yeah, I don’t disagree that she does need to realize she’s a potential heir to the Sith. The problem is the way it’s currently phrased. “Like him, you were chosen to be the heir to the Sith. You… are a rightful Palpatine.” With the sentences leading into each other like that, it’s implying that being heir to the Sith makes you a rightful Palpatine. We need to avoid this, as the Sith have existed for thousands of years and Palps is simply one in a long line of them. That’s why I’d prefer to stick to the idea that she’s Palpatine’s heir, which means she would inherit the Sith legacy that comes with that.

I think we need to list the pros and cons for each location of the Vader reference. Specifically, I’d like to know the cons of what I currently have for it so I understand your perspective a bit better on what we’re missing.

Right, so the reason I swapped the Vader reference back to where it was is due to Burbin’s realization that Rey shouldn’t even be aware of Anakin’s whole fatherless birth thing, so her response to his statement is questionable at best. That’s why she just needs to be denying her similarity to Vader, not that specific tidbit about him.

A similar thing is happening after he describes her parents in your draft, where her reaction isn’t matching what he’s describing. She’s already come to terms with the fact that they’re nobody junk traders, that was the point of TLJ. So him bringing up an undeniable fact like that again really shouldn’t be getting under her skin. He needs to be saying something in that moment which Rey would initially perceive as a lie, and rightfully so due to how outrageous it seems.

I also think it’s important to keep the concepts of heir to the Sith and heir to Palpatine distinct. After all, we don’t know Palpatine is all the Sith at this moment yet. We’re trying to emphasize a pseudo-familial relationship here to play off of her parents not caring about her, and not an organizational legacy which she shouldn’t care about.

I do like a couple other small changes you made though so I’ll nab those.

That looks solid for Rey Nobody! Is that what you’re referencing?

But for our idea here, these two sentences are integral and I refuse to change them “Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you.” I think I’ve managed to make it quite clear in the last draft that her destiny is to rule, so whether that’s by Kylo’s side to make something new or as Palpatine’s Sith heir, it’s what she’s ultimately afraid of and seeking to overcome. In other words, her vision doesn’t need to be referenced again in the reveal scene because it’s already been established.

EDIT: Thanks to you though, I’ve finally found wording I like for Kylo’s line - “Luke saw the same fate in me. Only together can we make our own.”

Here is all the dialogue as I currently have it because I haven’t shared it for a bit:

“Palpatine wants me to kill you.”

“Serving another master?”

“No. I have other plans…”

—

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it… I needed you to see it… who you are. The dark side is your birthright. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right. Your parents were nobody, but in more than one way. Nobody conceived you.”

“Don’t!”

“You’re so much like my grandfather. So like Darth Vader…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…destined to rule.”

“No!”

“You’ve seen it, haven’t you?”

(Rey sees the vision of herself on the Sith throne)

“Luke saw the same fate in me. We can only make our own together.”

“Stop talking.”

“I’m the only one who truly knows you.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Long before we met, I had a vision of a girl. When we first fought, in the forest, the power inside of you awakened. You revealed yourself not only to me, but to Palpatine… just as he’d intended.”

(Visions of Rey beating Kylo on Starkiller, falling into the dark cave, etc.)

“No!”

(A pedestal shatters and the mask of Vader falls to the ground)

“So that’s where you are.”

“Our paths have always been intertwined."

“No…”

"I’ll come tell you why.”

—

“Rey, I know the rest of our story.”

“Tell me.”

"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. Both once favored as his heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”

"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so his most worthy heir can claim the throne. But he hasn’t realized the strength of our connection, Rey… a bond, not of blood, but of raw power in the Force. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

—
“What are you most afraid of?”

“Myself…”

“Because you’re a Palpatine? The Force made us, to destroy him.”

“Final lesson. Rey… Some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny, if you don’t face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi. And the war will be lost."

"There’s something my sister would want you to have.”

—

“Leia’s saber.”

“She was quick to learn in our training. But Leia knew that a light as powerful as her own would cast a terrible shadow within her. She surrendered her saber to me and said that one day it would be picked up again by someone with the spirit to face that darkness.”

—

“Long have I waited… I never wanted you dead. I wanted you here, with me, Empress Palpatine. You will take the throne. It is your birthright to rule here. It is in your blood.”

“I haven’t come to lead the Sith. I’ve come to end them.”

“As a Jedi?”

“Yes.”

“No. Your hatred, your anger. You want to kill me. That is what I want. Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me. You will be Empress. We will be one.”

“All you want is for me to hate but I won’t. Not even you.”

“Weak. Your master, Luke Skywalker, was saved by his father. The only family you have here… is me.” (Everything after this point would be unaltered Ascendant v4).

I think if Palpatine had introduced any part of himself into Rey, then he almost certainly would know or have a say in where she was going to be born. Therefore, it wouldn’t make sense for her parents to be involved with the Sith unless it was expressly to return Rey to the Sith. At least with the way we’ve framed things now, Palpatine is only claiming creations of the Force as his rightful “property”. This doesn’t give us the implication that he got to decide where the child went to, and open up that plot hole of him not immediately coming for a young Rey.

I honestly think that giving Rey a further portion of the dark side is unnecessary. We’ve positioned things in quite a clever way already for there to be double meanings that Rey initially takes to mean the worst:

1. “Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life”. Rey and Kylo take this to mean they are rightfully Palpatine’s, destined for darkness like Vader.
2. Luke tells Rey that this is a stretch of the truth. The Force only made them to destroy him.
3. Rey confronts Palpatine armed with this knowledge, and he turns the tables once more: “Yes, I know you are meant to destroy me. That’s what I want and intended all along for you. My spirit will pass into you, and you will become a Palpatine regardless.”
4. It’s only because of the Force ghosts that she can fulfill her purpose ordained by the Force without succumbing to Palpatine’s machinations. She claims herself a Jedi, and later a Skywalker since both her own parents and Palpatine never had any right to her.

Burbin said:

Also I like that the current version leaves it ambiguous if Palpatine directly “made” Anakin & Rey, or if they were creations of the Force (to ultimately bring it to balance) motivated by Palpatine’s dark machinations. The proposed changes to Luke’s dialogue would suggest the latter, while Palpatine himself aims to take credit for their existence and claim them as his own.

Burbin out here speaking facts.

But hinventon does bring up the good point that perhaps we’ve technically already seen this type of character conflict before in Anakin (and perhaps even Luke). I do want to share a couple differences that might make it a tad different:

1. This time, Palpatine is announcing his perceived ownership of his “creation” whereas with Anakin he only implies it. This is particularly relevant in Rey’s case if she has parents that abandoned her.
2. Rey’s vision is different than Anakin’s because it suggests she is certain to fall to the dark side instead of merely losing a loved one.

I think we’re circling back to when I had the phrase “My grandfather, and then perfected in darkness with you.” Obviously the wording would be a tad different, but yeah. I don’t remember exactly why we ended up removing that. If somebody remembers, please let me know!

“Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then merged with a part of himself in you. You… are a [rightful] Palpatine.” (not sure if we even need “rightful” anymore)

EDIT: Ah, I think I remember why I removed that now. It’s because the message of this movie ultimately needs to be that your spirit is stronger than your blood. So having a piece of Palpatine’s spirit in her muddies things - if that’s what we’re talking about. It also prevents Luke’s advice from being applicable to her that we’ve already drafted.

I feel like there’s a little bit of passive aggressiveness in your response? Did I say something wrong? I mean, sure, maybe I was mistaken that some of that isn’t too ambitious, but that’s because you never made it clear how exactly you’d go about these changes until now. Your initial post didn’t have specifics. Because I genuinely think we are in agreement here, not disagreement. We just have different chosen methods to achieve the same results.

Burbin said:

Another point against mentioning Vader at the beginning is that there’s no reason to believe Rey would know of his immaculate conception, so it feels more like Kylo is talking to the audience rather than Rey, since he’s basically using Vader to explain the concept.

It wasn’t always like this. Initially we had something like the following:

“You were right. Your parents were nobody. No father conceived you.” (haha funny word play moment. This is all Rey says in TLJ: “They were nobody”.)

“Don’t!”

“You’re so much like my grandfather. So like Darth Vader…”

“I don’t want this!”

“…destined to rule”

“No!”

We’re probably never going to agree what a good characterization of her parents should look like, that’s why I’m leaning toward omitting them as much as possible.

Heh… I guess what we’re cooking up really needs a different name then because it’s gonna have a LOT of AI lines compared to v4. But mostly for Kylo, who I think is gonna sound the most seamless anyway.

Hmmm… I do wonder if such advice coming from Kylo could be seen as a negative, though. If it was coming from Luke later on, then I’d be totally on board, but at this point in the movie we may want Rey to think her vision is inevitable, thus why she goes to Ahch-To in the first place.

But on the other hand, Kylo’s proposition to Rey doesn’t make sense unless he believes they have some level of control over their own fate. So maybe it’s better left unsaid that he believes this? I’ll have to think about this one a bit.

A lot of that would work great in a novelization! The trouble is we have to choose our words very carefully due to space limitations. I’ll dig into some of the rewordings you have there to see if I can change some things around.

For example, I absolutely LOVE the idea of “But we can make our own fate.” Definitely replacing “But you and I don’t want it” with that.

Yeah, I always knew they were a bunch of crooks. This is one of the last things they said on Reddit:

“Nope, we don’t have anything to do with anyone from OT. We tried to work with them at the beginning of this project, and (to be frank) they treated us like trash and then attempted to sabotage our edit of Episode 9 by taking works we had not yet made public and disseminating it on their forums and to their users. Some even claimed our work as their own by posting it on YouTube. They also trashed-talked us in their forums despite us never having spoken to them or being involved. They blocked our account the day of (or just after) we had joined their site. The term “gatekeeping” isn’t something that should be used lightly; however, it is our opinion that they gatekeep the SW fan editor community. There’s likely many people there who have great intentions and are there to just see improvements on these films, but there are also those there who are driving people away from fan editing with their online behaviour and attitudes to other editors. Don’t know Hal 9000 and don’t watch his work.”

Here’s the truth: I merely commented on one of their videos exactly what I stated on my last post here - they should take a look at that deleted scene of Kylo Ren from TLJ to lead into Petrovelly’s VFX work. Then I shared a link with them to an UNLISTED video on my channel which demonstrated this concept with their watermarked footage. So nobody ever claimed their work lmao. The reality is that they were salty I was giving them suggestions without giving them money first. They are the true gatekeepers stopping the community from having something special for this movie.

But that’s neither here nor there. At least we have SOMETHING in Ascendant that’s better than the original quick transition to Mustafar’s surface.

There is a deleted scene of Kylo Ren from TLJ looking out the command center of a Star Destroyer while some TIEs fly by which could easily slot itself before we go to the planet because the original shot of Mustafar has TIEs and said Star Destroyer. Add some of those Sith whispers as he stares at the stars, and it would be golden. But there are a couple of problems:

1. We’d need to see his own ship flying down to Mustafar’s surface to understand how he suddenly got there. Fixing Disney Star Wars commissioned a really talented VFX artist who used to be on this forum to do this for a project (Petrovelly, I believe). Their project is now defunct, and they didn’t have the decency to release these materials to the community. So unless somebody can think of some sort of clever transition method, it probably wouldn’t work.
2. His outfit is technically different. How much? Not by much. He’s just missing his cape, so I guess this could be handwaved away.

At least in my lexicon, “lore” refers to books and supplementary material like comics.

Like I said, I’m willing to hear some alternatives for the paragraph after the heroes capture. What you had in your last draft is too short. Then I could reimplement the part about their paths being intertwined. But keep in mind that we’d still have Palpatine later claiming he never wanted her dead and also him sending Ochi to find a young Rey at some point.

EDIT: I just ripped the old one from previously in the thread since you aren’t providing me an option - “Palpatine knew your true potential… your power. The first time we fought, in the forest, the darkness inside of you awakened. You revealed yourself to the Emperor that day… just as he intended.”

I do also wonder if we could change Kylo’s line from earlier in the movie “Palpatine wants you dead” -> “Palpatine wants me to kill you”. This way we really lean into the idea that it’s not he specifically wants Rey dead, it’s just that she seems the least likely to claim his throne at this point.

The fact that he’d suddenly be having real-time Force skype sessions with her would be unsettling regardless of if he was having brief visions of her in the past. And, as we know, these sessions don’t stop with Snoke’s death, who claims to have instigated them, so clearly there is more happening here.

Also, he can still be having visions of a girl like her only to find out she’s nobody of true importance except for what she can potentially offer him - thus he believes that’s why she was being shown to him. He wouldn’t mention it in TLJ because it goes against his argument. It’s only in TROS when Palpatine tells him about the fact that both Anakin and Rey that he puts two and two together to realize that they share the same power in the Force, so it makes sense that the Force would be showing her to him. He shares it in this conversation at last because it bolsters his own argument that they are destined to work together.

Ultimately, you aren’t giving me any alternatives here for something he could say in this part (you didn’t give enough content in your last draft for the space here).

I’m willing to take a look at the bit about her parents only because I think giving any sort of characterization to them is a bad idea. But I fundamentally disagree with your part about Vader. It’s not in the “lore” it’s directly stated by Shimi: “There was no father.” We need to invoke this decades-long mystery again so that we can answer it, and this is the only way casual fans could possibly remember it. The way you currently have Kylo describing things sounds like adoption.

It all comes down to what we would have preferred for the conclusion of this 9 part Skywalker saga. Lots of people (like me) wanted the new stuff to come in different projects. Then lots of others, like you, wanted to get to that new stuff ASAP. The only reason I’m not in that category is because I think the purpose of the sequels should have been to explain any lingering mysteries left in Anakin’s story, and how that affects his family. Then, at the end (not the middle 😉 ), leave the door open for different stories than the Skywalkers. Which is exactly what we are doing with this edit. Palpatine’s return is now justified in this story in order to explain Anakin’s conception and what went wrong with the supposed chosen one.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against new stuff. I’m probably one of the only people in the “toxic” side of the Star Wars fanbase kind of excited for where Star Wars goes next with the Acolyte, the Rey movie, etc. But they shouldn’t have initially marketed this trilogy as a continuation of the Skywalker saga if they weren’t going to follow through on that with their main character. That’s probably why they tried to be cheeky with their ending scene in this movie, so they could claim this is still the Skywalker saga, but it just doesn’t work for me unless there’s some level of truth to Rey’s claim.

But, hey, at least both sides seem to be somewhat satisfied with this alternative idea!

Nah, I’ve got it. It’s 22 bucks for more than I’ve ever used in a month. I’ve spent more on stuff that gives me less entertainment value.

Besides, I feel like I’ve been too in control of the writing process for it to come out of anybody’s pocket except my own. I did the same thing for Ascendant.

If I’ve got the characters left after doing my version, I could generate it all. Because I’m gonna need a hand editing that version together. A favor for a favor. I can probably host it myself though if it’s rendered around 10-15 gb.

Let’s see if he likes that Nobody dialogue. Try sharing it on his thread.

hinventon said:

It can still be a moment like that, the music that plays just frames what Kylo said immediately prior as a big revelation when we already sort of know the info he’s saying in this version. I think putting a more subtle track like Kylos theme or maybe a slower imperial March cue could work there instead. The I am your father scene had a similar score instead of the big buildup reveal cue that TROS has.

I suppose so. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think it’s best to play to the strengths we have throughout the saga for an edit like TROS. That was my mindset going into this whole process. It’s like a puzzle, and we just had to find the right pieces and arrange them in such a way that respects as much as possible from what came before. Without playing favorites to any particular episode. Hopefully we’ve already accomplished this.

It’s so much easier to simply delete everything that you don’t like in editing - to delete everything that contradicts that middle chapter in our case. I think that sort of defeats the purpose of there even being another film set after it in the first place. TLJ ends in such a way that doesn’t leave a whole lot open, after all, besides moving on to a new saga. Which is why I strongly believe Rian Johnson should have directed Episode IX, not VIII.

Therefore, I feel any edit of TROS is obligated to extend beyond what was presented in TLJ in term’s of Rey’s origin/destiny. She had clearly already accepted her inner conflict in that movie, that her parents were worthless nobodies. In the interest of making the entire saga feel like one big story, her purpose in life really did deserve a second look. But JJ and Terrio went about it in the wrong way by giving her the same blood as the overarching villain, instead of linking her directly to the Skywalkers - who this is all about.

All that being said, what you have posted there for a Rey Nobody edit is pretty good. It’s giving Rey a predetermined fate beyond being a nobody that she needs to rise above. But the main reason I could never get behind the Rey Nobody edit is it cannot hope to explain why Rey has a comparable power level to a bloodline created by the Force itself. Yes, normal people give birth to powerful Force users all the time in the Star Wars universe, but none THAT powerful. Yes, Palpatine himself was one of those born to normal people that becomes obscenely powerful, but even fully engulfed in the dark side he admits that Anakin has more potential than him and Yoda in ROTS. Rey taking on the Skywalker name in an edit like this cements this awful idea, for me at least, that her character is purely wish fulfillment. I’m hoping that the alternative backstory we’ve collaborated on is enough to make both her level of power and her taking on the name of Skywalker feel deserved/warranted.

I mean, it’s not just the score of the scene which is framed like a big reveal. It’s intentionally invoking the same imagery as ESB - Our hero finds themselves cornered in front of a fatal fall. The villain takes advantage of this to reveal a tragic truth about the two of them, and that they need to kill the Emperor together. He says they need to rule the galaxy together in his place, but the hero jumps and escapes his clutches on the Falcon.

But if that’s something you want to do, more power to you! I’m just warning you that it’s not as simple as replacing the score. The vibe of the scene is always going to remind you of “No, I am your father” somewhere in your subconscious.

Ah, but that comes from an EU novel. In canon, it hasn’t been stated what the catalyst was for Anakin’s birth, only that he was created by the Force to be the chosen one.

Like I said, perhaps its best to leave this up to the audience’s interpretation. They can imagine that the Force made both Anakin and Rey at just the right times to coincide with their needed role, or they can imagine that Palpatine created them at the most opportune time for himself. Or a combination of both.

EDIT: The biggest problem with this idea in general is where it would be located. It reveals that Palpatine had a role in Rey’s conception too early where it’s currently at - that needs to be saved for the hangar as it’s the crux of all this. And it can’t be mentioned in the hangar because we need to use the same wording from ROTS to keep within the bounds of familiar Star Wars to sell the reveal as authentic.

Check this one out. Ideas pop from one to the next sequentially:

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it… I needed you to see it… who you are. The dark side is your birthright, Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“I’d never lie to you. Your parents were no one. Junk traders expecting a child they couldn’t have conceived.”

“Don’t!”

“Resentment grew. He never believed her — no father, yet you were born.”

“I don’t want this!”

“…just like Vader.”

“No!”

“You’ve seen it, haven’t you? Your destiny.”

(Rey sees the vision of herself on the Sith throne)

“Luke saw the same fate in me. But you and I don’t want it.”

“Stop talking.”

“Why? I know you better than anyone.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“The Force showed me glimpses of a girl like you long before we first met. When we fought, in the forest, the power inside of you awakened. You revealed yourself not only to me, but to the Emperor… just as he’d intended.”

(Visions of Rey beating Kylo on Starkiller, falling into the dark cave, etc.)

“No!”

(A pedestal shatters and the mask of Vader falls to the ground)

“So that’s where you are.”

“Before you chose the Jedi, Palpatine wanted you alive."

“No…”

"I’ll come tell you why.”

—

“Rey, I know the rest of our story.”

“Tell me.”

"Palpatine influenced the Force itself into creating life. First my grandfather, and then you. You were his chosen heir. You… are a rightful Palpatine.”

"Now, the Emperor wants us to fight each other, so his most worthy heir can claim the throne. But he hasn’t realized the strength of our connection, Rey… a bond, not of blood, but of raw power in the Force. We can end him and the Sith, and create a new order, together…”

We’re back to the point where the timing of Rey’s birth doesn’t seem to have a purpose, but I think that’s okay! Anakin’s birth didn’t coincide with Palpatine’s birth, or his own initiation into the Sith as a youngster. The Force moves in mysterious ways. We just have to assume it placed their births at just the right time. And, if Palpatine had a hand in it, just the right time for himself.

Also, the reason we need to mention Palpatine’s desire for having her alive before her Jedi path is because there will be two more references to this idea further on in the edit. I think it’s important to establish that here so it doesn’t shatter people’s understanding of Palpatine’s machinations.

I dunno, when I was in the theater in 2015 and I heard him say “What girl?” I genuinely thought that was supposed to be a hint that he was familiar enough with some girl that could have done this. There are countless others on the internet that felt the same way. Clearly Colin Trevorrow thought the same thing. Remember, this reveal we’re crafting is meant to tie together the entire trilogy and make it feel like this was planned out all along. The fact that we already are emphasizing how linked they always were through the Force means it would be a shame not to take this opportunity. We don’t have the luxury of creating our own supplementary material here.

Take a look at my last post. As hiventon pointed out, 9 times out of 10 Rey’s father would think her mother cheated on him in circumstances like this. There really isn’t any room for fear to be involved. Not unless her mother was barren, which isn’t worth stating to make the fear angle work because that would actually make Rey a positive thing and something to celebrate for 90% of couples. I think what I’ve got there is a short enough blurb to explain why a couple would sell their own child. And after that, they aren’t mentioned again, as they shouldn’t be.

For you, a well-versed fan in the lore, the direct reference to Vader immediately spells that part of her birth out too much. For others who don’t know as much, I think it’s a sufficient and more relevant hint. Remember, the only thing that is confirmed to fans who understand the lore is that Rey is a birth just like Anakin. That just means she’s practically another chosen one, which should be a good thing! Palpatine’s part in all that hasn’t been revealed yet. Perhaps this is the reason the newest part about her birth coinciding with Palpatine’s return should be removed so we save that for the actual reveal.